Bear Down Wildcats

I'm open to being swayed on the topic, but I'm wondering why it isn't the meat eaters who hold the moral high ground when it comes to the "Save the Animals!" issue.

Environmental and health questions come up, but the "Save the Animals!" issue is, in my experience, the dominant one. In the university community, it's now generally considered bad form serve meat. A host can't even throw some kind of event involving meat in his own home without several guests hovering outside the front door with their children, showing just how polite they are for trying but simply unable to enter an environment where animals are being subjected to something so terrible.

Top to bottom from worst to less worse, the crime of meat eating goes:

whales
cattle
pigs
poultry
fish

Why isn't it exactly the opposite? One fish gives his all so that he can serve as few as one person, whereas a whale gives a single sentient life but serves thousands. Similar can be said about cattle v. poultry, and I'm pretty sure that people fail to understand that a chicken is, in fact, a more sentient being than a cow.

But I'll take it a step further: The absolute worst offenders when it comes to killing animals for food are those people who eat vegetables. And fruit. The amount of lives of small creatures of all kinds that get crushed, smashed, cruelly dismembered for the sake of growing all these fruits and vegetables far, far outnumbers the killing of cows and pigs. Not to mention the necessary pollination in the agricultural industry, which involves trucking bees all over the continent. Poor little guys.

Save lives starting today by eating more steak!

Am I wrong?

Animals have 2 jobs, to taste good and fit right. That is it.

I eat steak and burgers so that the methane from cow farts doesn't end up killing us all.

That is an interesting take though LH. Never thought of the inverse size issue. Heck, how many hundreds of shrimp need to die to make one party cocktail platter, meanwhile a cow could feed a whole village for days. And you're right about the number of animals and plants that die or are uprooted so that we can grow vegetables. Maybe I'll just eat meat only from now on.

Nobody cares about the vegetables because you can't hear them scream.

I eat only vegetables. Vegetables that have been suitably processed. Suitably processed by cows, pigs or chickens for example.

Next time you're the only guy at the table who orders meat, and the vegetarians make whatever comment that makes them feel better about themselves, you should say:

"I balance things out by eating fruits and vegetables because it's good for sustainable agriculture. They're healthy, and... I admit it, I think they taste good, and I just can't help myself. But you people..." (shake your head slowly). "What you do to animals is unconscionable."

Good advice but those people won't wait much till they interrupt you & discredit anything you say.

Something like:

NYCat: "I balance things out by eati..."

Veggie: "meat is murder!"

NYCat wrote:Good advice but those people won't wait much till they interrupt you & discredit anything you say.

Something like:

NYCat: "I balance things out by eati..."

Veggie: "meat is murder!"

Then you come back; 'Yes, but delicious murder!"

azgreg wrote:

NYCat wrote:Good advice but those people won't wait much till they interrupt you & discredit anything you say.

Something like:

NYCat: "I balance things out by eati..."

Veggie: "meat is murder!"

Then you come back; 'Yes, but delicious murder!"

Or with, "Vegetables are murder too . . . . on my lower intestine" and then rip a nice long fart.

Chicat wrote:

azgreg wrote:

NYCat wrote:Good advice but those people won't wait much till they interrupt you & discredit anything you say.

Something like:

NYCat: "I balance things out by eati..."

Veggie: "meat is murder!"

Then you come back; 'Yes, but delicious murder!"

Or with, "Vegetables are murder too . . . . on my lower intestine" and then rip a nice long fart.

By vegetables you mean "properly processed grains", right?

There are some people who follow Jainism, who try to take this path of complete non-violence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism

They wouldn't even kill a mosquito. Their mouth is usually covered with a cloth so as to not kill anything accidentally.


From the wiki article:

A scrupulous and thorough application of non-violence to everyday activities, and especially to food, is the most significant hallmark of Jain identity.[50] The Jain diet, observed by the followers of Jain culture and philosophy, is one of the most rigorous forms of spiritually motivated diet found either on the Indian subcontinent or elsewhere. It is completely vegetarian, excludes onions and garlic, and may additionally exclude potatoes and other root vegetables. The strictest forms of Jain diet are practised by the ascetics.[51] For Jains, lacto-vegetarianism represents the minimal obligation: food which contains even small particles of the bodies of dead animals or eggs is absolutely unacceptable. Jain scholars and activists support veganism, as the production of dairy products involves violence against cows. Strict Jains do not eat root vegetables, such as potatoes and onions, because tiny organisms are injured when the plant is pulled up, and also because a bulb or tuber's ability to sprout is seen as characteristic of a living being.[52]

Jains make considerable efforts in everyday life not to injure plants any more than necessary. Although they admit that plants must be destroyed for the sake of food, they accept such violence only inasmuch as it is indispensable for human survival, and there are special instructions for minimizing violence against plants. Jains also go out of their way not to hurt even small insects and other minuscule animals. They rarely go out at night, when it is more likely that they might trample insects. In their view, injury caused by carelessness is like injury caused by deliberate action.[53] Eating honey is strictly outlawed, as it would amount to violence against the bees. Jains avoid farming because it inevitably entails unintentional killing or injuring of small animals, such as worms and insects, but agriculture is not forbidden in general and Jain farmers exist.[54] Additionally, because they consider harsh words to be a form of violence, they often keep a cloth for a ritual mouth-covering, serving as a reminder not to allow violence in their speech.[55]

reminds me i'm making a nice mexican pulled pork tonight...mmm

CatzManiac wrote:There are some people who follow Jainism, who try to take this path of complete non-violence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism

They wouldn't even kill a mosquito. Their mouth is usually covered with a cloth so as to not kill anything accidentally.


From the wiki article:

A scrupulous and thorough application of non-violence to everyday activities, and especially to food, is the most significant hallmark of Jain identity.[50] The Jain diet, observed by the followers of Jain culture and philosophy, is one of the most rigorous forms of spiritually motivated diet found either on the Indian subcontinent or elsewhere. It is completely vegetarian, excludes onions and garlic, and may additionally exclude potatoes and other root vegetables. The strictest forms of Jain diet are practised by the ascetics.[51] For Jains, lacto-vegetarianism represents the minimal obligation: food which contains even small particles of the bodies of dead animals or eggs is absolutely unacceptable. Jain scholars and activists support veganism, as the production of dairy products involves violence against cows. Strict Jains do not eat root vegetables, such as potatoes and onions, because tiny organisms are injured when the plant is pulled up, and also because a bulb or tuber's ability to sprout is seen as characteristic of a living being.[52]

Jains make considerable efforts in everyday life not to injure plants any more than necessary. Although they admit that plants must be destroyed for the sake of food, they accept such violence only inasmuch as it is indispensable for human survival, and there are special instructions for minimizing violence against plants. Jains also go out of their way not to hurt even small insects and other minuscule animals. They rarely go out at night, when it is more likely that they might trample insects. In their view, injury caused by carelessness is like injury caused by deliberate action.[53] Eating honey is strictly outlawed, as it would amount to violence against the bees. Jains avoid farming because it inevitably entails unintentional killing or injuring of small animals, such as worms and insects, but agriculture is not forbidden in general and Jain farmers exist.[54] Additionally, because they consider harsh words to be a form of violence, they often keep a cloth for a ritual mouth-covering, serving as a reminder not to allow violence in their speech.[55]

I learned about Jainism and its dietary restrictions when I took an Indian Civilization course at the U of A. And I respect it. For one, it's all about real religious observance. Secondly, it makes sense. Third, it supports my observation that vegetarians don't simply avoid killing sentient beings.

But then there's these newfangled first world jerks who travel to places and rudely demand of their hosts to not serve them anything that ever touched what they refer to as meat.

Longhorned wrote:

CatzManiac wrote:There are some people who follow Jainism, who try to take this path of complete non-violence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism

They wouldn't even kill a mosquito. Their mouth is usually covered with a cloth so as to not kill anything accidentally.


From the wiki article:

A scrupulous and thorough application of non-violence to everyday activities, and especially to food, is the most significant hallmark of Jain identity.[50] The Jain diet, observed by the followers of Jain culture and philosophy, is one of the most rigorous forms of spiritually motivated diet found either on the Indian subcontinent or elsewhere. It is completely vegetarian, excludes onions and garlic, and may additionally exclude potatoes and other root vegetables. The strictest forms of Jain diet are practised by the ascetics.[51] For Jains, lacto-vegetarianism represents the minimal obligation: food which contains even small particles of the bodies of dead animals or eggs is absolutely unacceptable. Jain scholars and activists support veganism, as the production of dairy products involves violence against cows. Strict Jains do not eat root vegetables, such as potatoes and onions, because tiny organisms are injured when the plant is pulled up, and also because a bulb or tuber's ability to sprout is seen as characteristic of a living being.[52]

Jains make considerable efforts in everyday life not to injure plants any more than necessary. Although they admit that plants must be destroyed for the sake of food, they accept such violence only inasmuch as it is indispensable for human survival, and there are special instructions for minimizing violence against plants. Jains also go out of their way not to hurt even small insects and other minuscule animals. They rarely go out at night, when it is more likely that they might trample insects. In their view, injury caused by carelessness is like injury caused by deliberate action.[53] Eating honey is strictly outlawed, as it would amount to violence against the bees. Jains avoid farming because it inevitably entails unintentional killing or injuring of small animals, such as worms and insects, but agriculture is not forbidden in general and Jain farmers exist.[54] Additionally, because they consider harsh words to be a form of violence, they often keep a cloth for a ritual mouth-covering, serving as a reminder not to allow violence in their speech.[55]

I learned about Jainism and its dietary restrictions when I took an Indian Civilization course at the U of A. And I respect it. For one, it's all about real religious observance. Secondly, it makes sense. Third, it supports my observation that vegetarians don't simply avoid killing sentient beings.

But then there's these newfangled first world jerks who travel to places and rudely demand of their hosts to not serve them anything that ever touched what they refer to as meat.

My post was not in support of the said jerks, just that there are people out there who really do take it seriously.

I am a vegetarian, but I never tell anyone what they can eat or not, or how it is good or bad. In fact, my wife eats meat and so does my kid now.

CatzManiac wrote:

Longhorned wrote:

CatzManiac wrote:There are some people who follow Jainism, who try to take this path of complete non-violence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism

They wouldn't even kill a mosquito. Their mouth is usually covered with a cloth so as to not kill anything accidentally.


From the wiki article:

A scrupulous and thorough application of non-violence to everyday activities, and especially to food, is the most significant hallmark of Jain identity.[50] The Jain diet, observed by the followers of Jain culture and philosophy, is one of the most rigorous forms of spiritually motivated diet found either on the Indian subcontinent or elsewhere. It is completely vegetarian, excludes onions and garlic, and may additionally exclude potatoes and other root vegetables. The strictest forms of Jain diet are practised by the ascetics.[51] For Jains, lacto-vegetarianism represents the minimal obligation: food which contains even small particles of the bodies of dead animals or eggs is absolutely unacceptable. Jain scholars and activists support veganism, as the production of dairy products involves violence against cows. Strict Jains do not eat root vegetables, such as potatoes and onions, because tiny organisms are injured when the plant is pulled up, and also because a bulb or tuber's ability to sprout is seen as characteristic of a living being.[52]

Jains make considerable efforts in everyday life not to injure plants any more than necessary. Although they admit that plants must be destroyed for the sake of food, they accept such violence only inasmuch as it is indispensable for human survival, and there are special instructions for minimizing violence against plants. Jains also go out of their way not to hurt even small insects and other minuscule animals. They rarely go out at night, when it is more likely that they might trample insects. In their view, injury caused by carelessness is like injury caused by deliberate action.[53] Eating honey is strictly outlawed, as it would amount to violence against the bees. Jains avoid farming because it inevitably entails unintentional killing or injuring of small animals, such as worms and insects, but agriculture is not forbidden in general and Jain farmers exist.[54] Additionally, because they consider harsh words to be a form of violence, they often keep a cloth for a ritual mouth-covering, serving as a reminder not to allow violence in their speech.[55]

I learned about Jainism and its dietary restrictions when I took an Indian Civilization course at the U of A. And I respect it. For one, it's all about real religious observance. Secondly, it makes sense. Third, it supports my observation that vegetarians don't simply avoid killing sentient beings.

But then there's these newfangled first world jerks who travel to places and rudely demand of their hosts to not serve them anything that ever touched what they refer to as meat.

My post was not in support of the said jerks, just that there are people out there who really do take it seriously.

I am a vegetarian, but I never tell anyone what they can eat or not, or how it is good or bad. In fact, my wife eats meat and so does my kid now.

I know you weren't saying that, Catz. I meant to refer only to my experiences.

I thought our spammer was back.

What do you do when a vegan comes to stay at your house for several days? When you have a guest staying with you, it's normal that you cook for them, so in this case you have to cook vegan. Last time this guy stayed with us -- for a week -- I eventually started to get angry from the stress of having to put together meals that meet all the ridiculous, strict requirements. He's coming again for a week next week. My solution is to avoid cooking the whole time he's here. Just get take-out the whole time and eat in restaurants, let him get what he wants, and pretend not to notice that he's uncomfortable with me eating normal food in front of him like fish and meat and butter and stuff. My wife can make her own choices with whatever she orders.

I guess that'd be my plan of action as well...though I haven't really been eating out at all lately in order to be a little healthier and budget myself. I cook 5ish nights a week currently so I'd be quite annoyed.

scumdevils86 wrote:I guess that'd be my plan of action as well...though I haven't really been eating out at all lately in order to be a little healthier and budget myself. I cook 5ish nights a week currently so I'd be quite annoyed.

Yeah, same here. It's just that I'll be even more annoyed having to try to cook vegan food. He says, "Don't worry. I'm not picky at all, as long as it's vegan." Well, crap.

True. I'd probably rather triple my spending for a week on food than have to deal with the hassle of that crap.

I've been vegan for over 20 years. I always take care of myself. If someone wants to go out of their way to cook for me, fine but I never expect it. I bring my own food or eat out. One thing you could do is make a salad or steam veggies or something you normally cook that is vegan and he could fill in the rest. Also, mexican is great. Tacos, tostadas, fajitas are all easy to make vegan. Just discuss it with him. It's just food. Unless he is a dick it really is no big deal.

Longhorned wrote:What do you do when a vegan comes to stay at your house for several days? When you have a guest staying with you, it's normal that you cook for them, so in this case you have to cook vegan. Last time this guy stayed with us -- for a week -- I eventually started to get angry from the stress of having to put together meals that meet all the ridiculous, strict requirements. He's coming again for a week next week. My solution is to avoid cooking the whole time he's here. Just get take-out the whole time and eat in restaurants, let him get what he wants, and pretend not to notice that he's uncomfortable with me eating normal food in front of him like fish and meat and butter and stuff. My wife can make her own choices with whatever she orders.

Just buy several large tubs. Fill one with pinto beans, one with kale and one with grass clippings. He'll be in heaven.

(Not serious)

Longhorned wrote:

scumdevils86 wrote:I guess that'd be my plan of action as well...though I haven't really been eating out at all lately in order to be a little healthier and budget myself. I cook 5ish nights a week currently so I'd be quite annoyed.

Yeah, same here. It's just that I'll be even more annoyed having to try to cook vegan food. He says, "Don't worry. I'm not picky at all, as long as it's vegan." Well, crap.

Give him a bag of carrots and tell him to STFU.

I play a little game with my vegan friend where I keep trying to hide bacon in his food.

He gets so pissed at me.

Is this vegan person a relative of the wife?

Thanks, 84. I think this is entirely my problem. Somewhere along the way cooking became something of a religious experience or a martial art. I'm afraid that if I just started cooking up fajitas or tacos or something, everyone would have to agree that those are the worst fajitas and tacos they've ever had in their entire life.

A, thanks for my big laugh of the afternoon.

Chicat wrote:Is this vegan person a relative of the wife?

He's a grad student in my wife's department who moved to Minneapolis because his wife got a job there, but he keeps needing to return to campus for meetings and collaborations.

More context: In academia, people who include meat in their diets are regarded as something along the lines of a redneck. There's no such thing as, say, a non-vegan dinner party, which is why I don't have academics over to dinner. So in this world, not accommodating a vegan is somewhat of a dick move.

I assume academics enjoy being walking stereotypes?

Spaceman Spiff wrote:I assume academics enjoy being walking stereotypes?

I don't know, but when 1 out of every 5 is vegan and 2 are vegetarian, the win goes to those with restrictions. So far when I've brought up the issues raised in post #1, they just kind of change the subject. I don't know if my arguments are just too stupid for a response. But if so, I'm stupid enough to believe in them.

I want a dinner invite at longhorned's. every time I think i'm getting fancy with dinner he way outdoes me. I just picked up a book recently of good tapas recipes and knocked out a few last weekend. simple ones for having a few friends over.

What about my PBJ dinners?

You're invited any time you make your way out to the Chicago area, SD!

And thanks for the compliment, but tapas, for example, are way above my pay grade. I hate it when there's a potluck and I get assigned the appetizers. Appetizers are by far the hardest part of any meal preparation. At my house, you sit down and eat some fucking olives.

Longhorned wrote:What about my PBJ dinners?

You're invited any time you make your way out to the Chicago area, SD!

And thanks for the compliment, but tapas, for example, are way above my pay grade. I hate it when there's a potluck and I get assigned the appetizers. Appetizers are by far the hardest part of any meal preparation. At my house, you sit down and eat some fucking olives.

I totally agree, hence why when the gf wanted to do a tapas/wine night I obliged somewhat grudgingly. So I went with the simple simple stuff. Patatas Bravas, sauteed bread and chorizo, olives, some spiced almonds, and an assortment of crackers and cheeses.

Longhorned wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:I assume academics enjoy being walking stereotypes?

I don't know, but when 1 out of every 5 is vegan and 2 are vegetarian, the win goes to those with restrictions. So far when I've brought up the issues raised in post #1, they just kind of change the subject. I don't know if my arguments are just too stupid for a response. But if so, I'm stupid enough to believe in them.

Tell them that their diets aren't restricted enough. You need to also cease eating items animals have provided fertilizer for or gazed upon. Or items animals would not recognize as food because they're just dumb animals.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

Longhorned wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:I assume academics enjoy being walking stereotypes?

I don't know, but when 1 out of every 5 is vegan and 2 are vegetarian, the win goes to those with restrictions. So far when I've brought up the issues raised in post #1, they just kind of change the subject. I don't know if my arguments are just too stupid for a response. But if so, I'm stupid enough to believe in them.

Tell them that their diets aren't restricted enough. You need to also cease eating items animals have provided fertilizer for or gazed upon. Or items animals would not recognize as food because they're just dumb animals.

I could serve only rotten fruit, and take offense when others don't do the same.

"It's violent to eat an entire plant instead of just the fruit of the plant," I'll say. "But it's also violent to take fruit from a plan that does not offer it willingly. Wait for the fruit to drop. That is the fruit intended for us."

We should all just graze the land. Anything placed on a plate is an abomination.

Well luckily for me, LH, living here in Idaho the redneck factor is pretty high and meat eating is not frowned upon. In fact, if said meat, of any variety, is "harvested" at the business end of your own bullet or arrow so much the better. Actually killing your own meat is quite popular in these parts. Did I mention the Elk burger I had at Deschutes Brewery in Bend last Friday night in the Dinner thread? Cooked rare and all kinds of bloody awesome, but I digress.

This vegans and vegetarians vs. the carnivores social issue you have in academia and the cosmopolitan big city is pretty interesting. I personally would not shy away from preparing and serving meat in my own home just because some self-righteous animal lover doesn't have the good grace, manners and upbrining to be a polite guest in someone else's home. On the other hand, as a good host desirous of making everyone comfortable, 84Cat's suggestions seem reasonable and doable. Plenty of good things you can do with salads and veggies, etc. Still though, if someone won't come into my house or share a meal at my table because there's meat for others around, then there's nothing that I'm going to do about that. Tough shit, I say. And I'm certainly not going to argue about it with anyone or feel bad for what I serve, eat, etc.

I suggest your Melon Pasta. That sounds fantastic - "sublime" I believe you said. Just leave the prosciutto or pancetta out. In fact, I printed that off and showed it to the friendly Canadian GF who is mostly Italian. She'd never heard of it, but thought it sounded fantastic as did I. We're going to make it soon before the melons run out.

I wish vegans would take my dietary needs into account when I eat at their houses.

Great post, Bear Down. I served that melon pasta to a vegetarian. But it won't do for a vegan. It has butter. And parmesan. How can I treat animals this way? (Actually, it's all from a local dairy farm where the cows are treated pretty darn well, and better for the environment and the body than vegetable oil spread and plastic cheese-like substances).

Alieberman, the problem is that your eating habits are uncouth.

If by vegan you mean I eat meat and poultry then I'm a vegan.

I'm a meatatarian.

just feed the visiting vegan nothing but vegan junkfood.

http://www.peta.org/living/food/accidentally-vegan/

Like oreos.

Give them nothing but oreos.

BearDown89 wrote:Well luckily for me, LH, living here in Idaho the redneck factor is pretty high and meat eating is not frowned upon. In fact, if said meat, of any variety, is "harvested" at the business end of your own bullet or arrow so much the better. Actually killing your own meat is quite popular in these parts. Did I mention the Elk burger I had at Deschutes Brewery in Bend last Friday night in the Dinner thread? Cooked rare and all kinds of bloody awesome, but I digress.

UADirect would give rep to this post if he could.

My son still at home tried to go vegetarian several times. I said fine, I will cook what you want, but I am still going to cook what I am going to cook. Pretty hard to look at stir fried tofu when I am grilling tri-tip outside.

Alieberman wrote:I wish vegans would take my dietary needs into account when I eat at their houses.

That's the hypocrisy of it all.

How is veganism or vegetarianism any less of an imposition on someone who eats meat than vice-versa? What if I think it's uncouth for vegans and vegetarians to expect that accommodation? 84cat clearly doesn't, but so many I've come across do.

Merkin wrote:

BearDown89 wrote:Well luckily for me, LH, living here in Idaho the redneck factor is pretty high and meat eating is not frowned upon. In fact, if said meat, of any variety, is "harvested" at the business end of your own bullet or arrow so much the better. Actually killing your own meat is quite popular in these parts. Did I mention the Elk burger I had at Deschutes Brewery in Bend last Friday night in the Dinner thread? Cooked rare and all kinds of bloody awesome, but I digress.

UADirect would give rep to this post if he could.

My son still at home tried to go vegetarian several times. I said fine, I will cook what you want, but I am still going to cook what I am going to cook. Pretty hard to look at stir fried tofu when I am grilling tri-tip outside.

I was channeling UADirect as I wrote it Merk!

What if you buy the ingredients but make them cook?

The only way I could be vegan is if I had a personal chef.

UAEebs86 wrote:What if you buy the ingredients but make them cook?

The only way I could be vegan is if I had a personal chef.

That's a nice thought, but this is also one of the problems. I've had his cooking. This is the same guy who made a warm vegan chocolate pudding, made from avocados. I swore I was eating freshly shat parrot poop. He was also in charge of the vegan Canadian Thanksgiving I reported earlier at TOS. The one with the Turkey made out of wheat gluten, which tasted like your great aunt's old sandals smell.

I may sound like a real prick, but I mean to emphasize that I'm the problem, not him and vegans in general. Something I've put together over time is that vegans largely tend to be people who were never overly fond of food to begin with -- it's "just food" and we're supposed to "eat to live, not live to eat". In other words, the desire among vegans to have meat eaters transform themselves into vegans is misplaced, because that's really like non-alcoholics wanting alcoholics to be moderate drinkers instead of non-drinkers and over-drinkers. It's asking a lot of somebody with a (unhealthy?) food obsession to give up eating entire categories of food that the human body is basically engineered to process. Different people are capable of different things, but we live in a world where traditional eaters provide vegan food for vegans, not where vegans provide traditional food for traditional eaters. In restaurants, on the other hand, it's the vegans who run into problems upon discovering that the pea soup was made with chicken stock.

Longhorned wrote:

UAEebs86 wrote:What if you buy the ingredients but make them cook?

The only way I could be vegan is if I had a personal chef.

That's a nice thought, but this is also one of the problems. I've had his cooking. This is the same guy who made a warm vegan chocolate pudding, made from avocados. I swore I was eating freshly shat parrot poop. He was also in charge of the vegan Canadian Thanksgiving I reported earlier at TOS. The one with the Turkey made out of wheat gluten, which tasted like your great aunt's old sandals smell.

I may sound like a real prick, but I mean to emphasize that I'm the problem, not him and vegans in general. Something I've put together over time is that vegans largely tend to be people who were never overly fond of food to begin with -- it's "just food" and we're supposed to "eat to live, not live to eat". In other words, the desire among vegans to have meat eaters transform themselves into vegans is misplaced, because that's really like non-alcoholics wanting alcoholics to be moderate drinkers instead of non-drinkers and over-drinkers. It's asking a lot of somebody with a (unhealthy?) food obsession to give up eating entire categories of food that the human body is basically engineered to process. Different people are capable of different things, but we live in a world where traditional eaters provide vegan food for vegans, not where vegans provide traditional food for traditional eaters. In restaurants, on the other hand, it's the vegans who run into problems upon discovering that the pea soup was made with chicken stock.

Bolded for emphasis.

Also, I'm pretty certain that vegans and vegetarians who eat out and choose those options at places who serve non-vegetarian fare are constantly being lied to anyway.

Anybody ever had buffalo?

Amazingly good stuff. Steaks and burgers - my kids love buffalo burgers.

Two of the best steaks I've ever had were prime grade ribeye buffalo - one trimmed and one cowboy style. Cooked medium rare, of course.

Longhorned wrote:

UAEebs86 wrote:What if you buy the ingredients but make them cook?

The only way I could be vegan is if I had a personal chef.

That's a nice thought, but this is also one of the problems. I've had his cooking. This is the same guy who made a warm vegan chocolate pudding, made from avocados. I swore I was eating freshly shat parrot poop. He was also in charge of the vegan Canadian Thanksgiving I reported earlier at TOS. The one with the Turkey made out of wheat gluten, which tasted like your great aunt's old sandals smell.

I may sound like a real prick, but I mean to emphasize that I'm the problem, not him and vegans in general. Something I've put together over time is that vegans largely tend to be people who were never overly fond of food to begin with -- it's "just food" and we're supposed to "eat to live, not live to eat". In other words, the desire among vegans to have meat eaters transform themselves into vegans is misplaced, because that's really like non-alcoholics wanting alcoholics to be moderate drinkers instead of non-drinkers and over-drinkers. It's asking a lot of somebody with a (unhealthy?) food obsession to give up eating entire categories of food that the human body is basically engineered to process. Different people are capable of different things, but we live in a world where traditional eaters provide vegan food for vegans, not where vegans provide traditional food for traditional eaters. In restaurants, on the other hand, it's the vegans who run into problems upon discovering that the pea soup was made with chicken stock.

I eat to live, eat meat and my sister is a vegetarian. When I went to visit her, I bought my own food for the week and cooked for myself. It's only fair. I don't really get the idea that a host should cook for a guest. I've always done it the other way.

Longhorned wrote:What do you do when a vegan comes to stay at your house for several days? When you have a guest staying with you, it's normal that you cook for them, so in this case you have to cook vegan. Last time this guy stayed with us -- for a week -- I eventually started to get angry from the stress of having to put together meals that meet all the ridiculous, strict requirements. He's coming again for a week next week. My solution is to avoid cooking the whole time he's here. Just get take-out the whole time and eat in restaurants, let him get what he wants, and pretend not to notice that he's uncomfortable with me eating normal food in front of him like fish and meat and butter and stuff. My wife can make her own choices with whatever she orders.

He's back. Pure hell. A whole week. It's so ****ing rude to stay in somebody's house and act like there's something wrong with their food, making them bend over backwards to impose your ****ing weird restriction. As a thank you for letting him stay with us, he's taking us out to dinner at vegan restaurant tonight. More hell. And as is common with these weird diets, he hypocritically gets up in the night and eats the things he claims not to eat when nobody's looking. I find the evidence of his yogurt and milk consumption in the night, and yet I'm supposed to bend over backwards and keep butter and cheese out of everyone's food, and eat with him in a vegan restaurant, all for the pretense of keeping up his bizarre and untenable lifestyle that's supposedly a sign of his high level of "discipline" and "humane choices"? Sorry I'm so undisciplined and inhumane.

I'm so ready to make a stand against this vegan crap. It shouldn't be viewed as socially acceptable.