Bear Down Wildcats

Where do sj and rhj end up?

ASUHATER! wrote:Where do sj and rhj end up?

Stanley to Sacramento or Detroit it seems.

Jefferson not sure. Could literally be anywhere from 13 onward.

Reydituto wrote:Suns trading that Lakers pick gained validation today ...

Yeah. Still sucks that once again for the 25th year of my Suns fandom that they get shit on in the lottery. Can't imagine being a fan and being around for the Kareem coin flip. Maybe this franchise is just cursed.

The Goat wrote:

Reydituto wrote:Suns trading that Lakers pick gained validation today ...

Yeah. Still sucks that once again for the 25th year of my Suns fandom that they get shit on in the lottery. Can't imagine being a fan and being around for the Kareem coin flip. Maybe this franchise is just cursed.

Or the two cards left for David Robinson and we end up with Armon Gilliam in 1987.

ASUHATER! wrote:Where do sj and rhj end up?

Im sticking with my SJ to Miami at 10 and RHJ to Toronto at 20.

I think Detroit and Charlotte will take look sat SJ, but I hope he lands in Miami for multiple reasons. Boston could roll the dice on Rondae at 16.

The Goat wrote:

Reydituto wrote:Suns trading that Lakers pick gained validation today ...

Yeah. Still sucks that once again for the 25th year of my Suns fandom that they get shit on in the lottery. Can't imagine being a fan and being around for the Kareem coin flip. Maybe this franchise is just cursed.

Maybe??? That was already a foregone conclusion in 1995.

History is on the Warriors side. In NBA history, 13 teams have won 65+ games & advanced to the Finals. All 13 won it all.

Good 538 article on supporting casts and finals teams.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/wher ... ing-casts/

Spaceman Spiff wrote:Good 538 article on supporting casts and finals teams.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/wher ... ing-casts/

Thanks, Spiff---great stuff.

(538)"According to relative importance, the difference in talent suiting up alongside each star in a series is roughly 2.2 times as important to the series results as the talent disparity between the stars themselves."

Love it when 538 brings its metrics acumen to areas beyond politics!

Im trying, I really am, but I see no difference between the game now and in 1996-1998 when I lost interest in the NBA.

Stars get the star treatment, push-off's aren't called, ticky tack is. So much iso ball.

I vastly prefer the college game, even with its own issues/problems. I just can't relate to "the league".

This was Cleveland's chance. Blew it. Now Irving looks done. Cavs are toast. Warriors gonna sweep unless something really wacky goes down.

Iggy came up big

Well, I suppose the Lebron groupies would have had an excuse no matter what (Love), but I didnt want to see Kyree go down to give them another. I think the Cavs still take one in Cleveland, but this will be done in 5.

LeBron groupies? Excuses? Are there still people out there whining that he's overrated?

He isn't overrated. He's easily one of the five best players of all time, and talent wise, probably the best. But he is still a bitch and a p*ssy and has balls the size of bb's. His legacy will probably be overrated at the end of his career. People try to say he is better than MJ or close, but he doesn't have the heart and nads MJ, Magic, Larry and others had. Truth be told, I probably pick 3 or 4 guys ahead of him if I was starting a team using all time greats.

Lol

rgdeuce wrote:He isn't overrated. He's easily one of the five best players of all time, and talent wise, probably the best. But he is still a bitch and a p*ssy and has balls the size of bb's. His legacy will probably be overrated at the end of his career. People try to say he is better than MJ or close, but he doesn't have the heart and nads MJ, Magic, Larry and others had. Truth be told, I probably pick 3 or 4 guys ahead of him if I was starting a team using all time greats.

Agree. He was pretty much unstoppable last night until the last minute of the game & OT. Then he disappeared. I couldn't believe it. Some things never change. Still a great player though.

CalStateTempe wrote:Im trying, I really am, but I see no difference between the game now and in 1996-1998 when I lost interest in the NBA.

Stars get the star treatment, push-off's aren't called, ticky tack is. So much iso ball.

I vastly prefer the college game, even with its own issues/problems. I just can't relate to "the league".

I agree 100%. And getting fearful that college is turning into the NBA as the shot clock is decreased again.

Kyrie Irving is out for 3-4 months with a fractured kneecap.

Mr. Glass.

I believe the phrase is:

"Everyone knows Duke players suck in the pros"

Chicat wrote:Kyrie Irving is out for 3-4 months with a fractured kneecap.

Son of a...He played so well last night too. Now Delly gets to injure a Warrior.

Someone asked Kerr if he was going to change the lineup for Game 2. He answered, "We're 80-18"

That sucks! I think we may see a sweep now.

Damn... have game 5 tickets... hoping Lebron can pull one out at home.

Cavs still going to win one in cleveland. Warriors have let off the gas a few times in the playoffs and theres going to be a night where lebron has a huge efficient game and the supporting casts shots are falling.

Terrible. Lebron stunk the place up and choked at the end of regulation and overtime and you lose at home?

That's a terrible L for GS. Especially with the calls in there favor at the end and JR point shaving

That was some of the worst reffing I have ever seen. Pro Cavs early and often with ticky tacks, then pro Warriors with egregious no calls. Overall, reffing allowed no flow to build at any time in the game, from gifting the Cavs with Thompson's second foul early in 1st quarter, to so many loose-ball fouls against the Warriors, to two phantom, FT-awarding fouls against Iggy/Curry where LeBron elbows Andre to get contact, and trips himself splitting a screen. Some of the no-calls against him late I felt were makeups for those 4 points, but all games they were bad all over.

rgdeuce wrote:Terrible. Lebron stunk the place up and choked at the end of regulation and overtime and you lose at home?

It's amazing when a player becomes only the 2nd player in NBA history to record a 35-15-10 triple double in NBA Finals history and yet he stunk.

That was the 3rd home loss by Golden St all year and it was done with 2 all stars missing... it was LeBron and a bunch of scrubs.

If Cleveland even makes this a series that would be remarkable. LeBron is amazing.

CalStateTempe wrote:I believe the phrase is:

"Everyone knows Duke players suck in the pros"

|
|
v

JMarkJohns wrote:That was some of the worst reffing I have ever seen. Pro Cavs early and often with ticky tacks, then pro Warriors with egregious no calls. Overall, reffing allowed no flow to build at any time in the game, from gifting the Cavs with Thompson's second foul early in 1st quarter, to so many loose-ball fouls against the Warriors, to two phantom, FT-awarding fouls against Iggy/Curry where LeBron elbows Andre to get contact, and trips himself splitting a screen. Some of the no-calls against him late I felt were makeups for those 4 points, but all games they were bad all over.

It was horrific. The baseline play where Iggy chopped LeBron's forearms is Jason Williams riding Jason Gardner like a pony level bad as a no call. LeBron got fouled twice on the layup to end regulation, but you sort of expect that in that situation.

The split screen was a foul, IMO, but the jumper where Iggy got whistled should have been a no call. On the whole, it's bad when most of the calls down the stretch were so decidedly pro-Warriors.

Also, JR Smith had money on the Warriors right?

I'm interested to see if LeBron/Cle can pull this off. The uglier, the better for them. It would be as massive an upset as has ever happened in the Finals, IMO.

Alieberman wrote:

rgdeuce wrote:Terrible. Lebron stunk the place up and choked at the end of regulation and overtime and you lose at home?

It's amazing when a player becomes only the 2nd player in NBA history to record a 35-15-10 triple double in NBA Finals history and yet he stunk.

That was the 3rd home loss by Golden St all year and it was done with 2 all stars missing... it was LeBron and a bunch of scrubs.

If Cleveland even makes this a series that would be remarkable. LeBron is amazing.

He's not gonna be real efficient with the guys he's playing with. Take LeBron away, they have Delly/Shumpert/JR/Thompson/Mozgov. That is a 15-20 win team. This is basically one guy vs GS.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

JMarkJohns wrote:Also, JR Smith had money on the Warriors right?

The great thing (or annoying if you are a Cavs fan) about JR is that he makes these dumb ass mistakes and shows no emotion about them or does not realize how bad they are. However, if he makes a wide open three then he is ALL about it!!

Coop Cat wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

JMarkJohns wrote:Also, JR Smith had money on the Warriors right?

The great thing (or annoying if you are a Cavs fan) about JR is that he makes these dumb ass mistakes and shows no emotion about them or does not realize how bad they are. However, if he makes a wide open three then he is ALL about it!!

I'm not a Cavs fan, but my favorite JR quality is his frequent jacking up highly contested threes. Sometimes he's on and drops 25 in a millisecond. Sometimes it is a long string of shots that are the reasons why coaches don't carry guns.

I also like that the conventional wisdom about JR's potential tends to involve the variable "how good is the nightlife in the city he plays in?"

Edit: my list of most mentally unbalanced players to win a championship in the modern NBA, which JR Smith will join if the Cavs pull this off.

Vernon Maxwell
JR Rider (got a ring as a Laker backup)
Ron Artest/Metta World Peace
Rodman
Birdman

Note: I left Bison Dele/Brian Williams off because his story is more sad than anything else.

Alieberman wrote:

rgdeuce wrote:Terrible. Lebron stunk the place up and choked at the end of regulation and overtime and you lose at home?

It's amazing when a player becomes only the 2nd player in NBA history to record a 35-15-10 triple double in NBA Finals history and yet he stunk.

That was the 3rd home loss by Golden St all year and it was done with 2 all stars missing... it was LeBron and a bunch of scrubs.

If Cleveland even makes this a series that would be remarkable. LeBron is amazing.

Thats the thing w Lebron though. People throw out his numbers, Lebron is great at accumulating great stats. And ESPN is even better at being selective w those numbers to ride his nuts. You go, damn triple double with 30 pts, thats gotta be an all time performance. The reality is though, he took 35 shots to get those points and was horribly inefficient. 16 boards is great but thats on a night when the Warriors laid 100 bricks. And this is a dude who gets the calls more than anyone (KD and Harden included).

But you watch the game, he started off nice and ended like 3 for 20. He fell apart. He blew it late and sucked the place up in overtime. Then misses a free throw late that luckily didnt bite them in the ass. The type of player he is, and largely his size (length and girth) helps him get those boards and assists that look good on paper, but big picture, thats a terribly inefficient game and he didn't show up in the most important minutes. Somehow, Golden State found a way (sans Thompson and moments from ither guys) to stink the place up at home and Lebron's teammates made some big key plays late.

LeBron is an all time top 5 great. Not a choker and is an A+ closer and carries every team on his back. End of story.

ASUHATER! wrote:LeBron is an all time top 5 great. Not a choker and is an A+ closer and carries every team on his back. End of story.

Lets just forget about all those playoff series/big games where he dissapeared in the fourth and played hot potato. Or went ice cold. Or gave up on his team. Or linked up w two stars and had handfuls of solid role players sign for the cheap for a weedcarrier ring and still lost twice in the finals and was a Ray Allen miracle 3 from losing three. And how in the last several years has only had one really tough opponent in the playoffs because the east is a joke

When Lebron wins, he gets all the credit. When he loses, it's everyone elses fault

rgdeuce wrote:

ASUHATER! wrote:LeBron is an all time top 5 great. Not a choker and is an A+ closer and carries every team on his back. End of story.

Lets just forget about all those playoff series/big games where he dissapeared in the fourth and played hot potato. Or went ice cold. Or gave up on his team. Or linked up w two stars and had handfuls of solid role players sign for the cheap for a weedcarrier ring and still lost twice in the finals and was a Ray Allen miracle 3 from losing three. And how in the last several years has only had one really tough opponent in the playoffs because the east is a joke

When Lebron wins, he gets all the credit. When he loses, it's everyone elses fault

http://www.si.com/nba/2015/01/07/clutch ... -pau-gasol

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/lebr ... eneration/

By actual statistical measures, LeBron has been good in the clutch. The narrative that he doesn't deliver in big moments is tired and wrong. The only way to make it worse is to compare him to Kobe's fraudulent "big shot" rep, when actual stats show LeBron is twice the clutch scorer Kobe is.

The rest is a mix of somewhat valid arguments, somewhat overstated arguments and butthurt about the decision. You think Jordan would have come back to the Bulls if they'd gotten rid of Pippen? It isn't weird to want to play with good players.

rgdeuce wrote:

ASUHATER! wrote:LeBron is an all time top 5 great. Not a choker and is an A+ closer and carries every team on his back. End of story.

Lets just forget about all those playoff series/big games where he dissapeared in the fourth and played hot potato. Or went ice cold. Or gave up on his team. Or linked up w two stars and had handfuls of solid role players sign for the cheap for a weedcarrier ring and still lost twice in the finals and was a Ray Allen miracle 3 from losing three. And how in the last several years has only had one really tough opponent in the playoffs because the east is a joke

When Lebron wins, he gets all the credit. When he loses, it's everyone elses fault

Completely incorrect.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

rgdeuce wrote:

ASUHATER! wrote:LeBron is an all time top 5 great. Not a choker and is an A+ closer and carries every team on his back. End of story.

Lets just forget about all those playoff series/big games where he dissapeared in the fourth and played hot potato. Or went ice cold. Or gave up on his team. Or linked up w two stars and had handfuls of solid role players sign for the cheap for a weedcarrier ring and still lost twice in the finals and was a Ray Allen miracle 3 from losing three. And how in the last several years has only had one really tough opponent in the playoffs because the east is a joke

When Lebron wins, he gets all the credit. When he loses, it's everyone elses fault

http://www.si.com/nba/2015/01/07/clutch ... -pau-gasol

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/lebr ... eneration/

By actual statistical measures, LeBron has been good in the clutch. The narrative that he doesn't deliver in big moments is tired and wrong. The only way to make it worse is to compare him to Kobe's fraudulent "big shot" rep, when actual stats show LeBron is twice the clutch scorer Kobe is.

The rest is a mix of somewhat valid arguments, somewhat overstated arguments and butthurt about the decision. You think Jordan would have come back to the Bulls if they'd gotten rid of Pippen? It isn't weird to want to play with good players.

I've already read both of those articles and read them again right now. One of them deals with one shot within a certain time period. If the game is tied, or you are down and need a bucket, I am not dumb, Lebron's the guy in the NBA who I want with the ball. The other article deals with numbers from one season; he has admittedly gotten a lot better late in games and is arguably over criticized when he fails/hides, but that is due to his track record in the preceding years.

And ASUHATER, I'll let you continue to fondle Lebron's testicles, it's cool. Lebron Stans can't admit a single ECF or Finals series loss involving Lebron because of Lebron under performing, Lebron disappearing, Lebron not being assertive enough, Lebron giving up, Lebron being a dick and isolating other stars on the team instead of elevating them (cough wade, cough Love), etc. Although not the choke artist Peyton Manning is, stans constantly push the numbers and whenever a title is on the line, conveniently erase the past like it never happened.

People ragging on LeBron are like republicans that keep sticking to the same beliefs even when presented with piles of facts that prove them wrong.

RG2, here's a different statistical tool that had LeBron only 11th in clutch play this year.

http://www.nbaminer.com/clutch-time-stats/

That said, the last time he was not in the top 10 in clutch play before was 2004-05. A ten year run of being top ten in the clutch is not a bad track record.

Let's face it, LeBron is gonna be an unbelievably polarizing figure no matter what. There is absolutely no point in trying to defend or slam the guy into the dirt, because people aren't going to change their minds.

He is one of the greatest players of all time to ever play this game. He has a unique blend of physical attributes and skills that make him a monster. He just made a stupid decision regarding his move to Miami that gave him a lifetime of bad feelings among people.

That said, if I wanted to win a title and I had the choice between Michael and LeBron, I'm takin Mike all day everyday.

At this point I'd lean LeBron. Guy actually makes everyone around him better. Is a better passer, etc

No doubt he's the better player, but one could argue Mike desired winning more than anything else in his life, which I don't know if LeBron has that same level of intensity.

I would think Mike made the players around him better just by the sheer willpower of his desire. He also wasn't afraid to push his teammates buttons to get them to produce more.

Like I said though, apples to apples, LeBron way outmatches Mike. But legacies are forged from the rings you win, not from how many you could have won.

Also different time periods. I don't think people would wear the rose colored glasses of Jordan if he played in today's age of a nonstop media cycle.

ASUHATER! wrote:At this point I'd lean LeBron. Guy actually makes everyone around him better. Is a better passer, etc

It's become as popular an opinion as it is incorrect that LeBron is far and away the better facilitator. Prior to the Triangle being implemented, Jordan was routinely averaging 6-8 APG, for playoff teams, with pretty average talent. Those numbers are comparable to LeBron's peak. And within the Triangle he still averaged 5 APG for his prime, while sharing facilitation duties with Pippen.

It's a complete fallacy to infer Jordan couldn't put up similar assist numbers.

I'm not saying you're wrong for the ultimate conclusion of LeBron vs Jordan (Though I'd say you are), but if we are going to say why, we have to hold the reasons against the standards of reality.

James has basically had unchecked offensive power in every system and under every coach. He could do whatever, whenever, however, and in whatever number he felt like and he's still never had a season scoring and passing like Jordan of 32 PPG, 8 rpg, 8 APG, on 55% eFG, and 61% tFG.

And that year was a lower usage rate, lower offensive win shares, and lower overall Win Shares and Per. Meaning, he had seasons not as statistically incredible, but actually more effiecieny or significant to the big picture. Many more if you look at advanced metrics: during prime 10 seasons, Jordan has twice as many seasons with 13 or better offensive win shares and 17 or better total win shares, despite similar usage rate.

Per 36 (to even up average opportunity), Jordan went for 30 PPG and 6 APG to LeBron's 25 PPG and 7 APG.

We really should stop pretending LeBron is that much more of a facilitator. He dominates the ball, makes a bunch of passes, but they aren't nearly as efficient or effective in rate as the number suggests.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29 ... th-quarter

Spiff, you f-er! That analysis was so terrific and so much fun. Thanks for the share.

I also liked "Statistics clearly cannot measure the fear Kobe Bryant puts into opposing teams when he disses Chris Rock on the bench of a playoff game, or the innate weakness shown by LeBron James every time he bites his nails."

Now after spending 30min luxuriating in those tables, I've got exactly 34sec to do 17 things I was supposed to accomplish before my wife's dinner is served.

Fishclamps wrote:No doubt he's the better player, but one could argue Mike desired winning more than anything else in his life, which I don't know if LeBron has that same level of intensity.

I would think Mike made the players around him better just by the sheer willpower of his desire. He also wasn't afraid to push his teammates buttons to get them to produce more.

Or he verbally abused them to the point they became quivering noncontributors like Stacey King and Kwame Brown. MJ's leadership skills were only for people who were strong enough to handle him. LeBron may have less fire, but MJ was not for everyone.

The Kwame Brown thing was a textbook "how not to mentor a fragile but talented 18 year old."

To Jmark's post, I agree that Jordan could put up assist numbers. He put up good numbers when he was installed as very ball dominant under Collins. When he played in the triangle and didn't/couldn't dominate the ball as much.

I would argue that LeBron's last Cleveland season was a toss up with MJ's 88-89. If you go to their 36 MPG numbers, MJ had 29, 7 and 7. LeBron had 27.4, 8 and 7 (with a slight round up from 6.7).

Part of the reason MJ has stunning raw numbers is that he played a ton of minutes and has some insane usage rates. MJ had two years with a usage rate over 38 and LeBron has never been as high as 34. Collins's offense was basically "give Mike the ball." That was when MJ got his assists, because he was basically the initiator every time down the floor.

Both players have areas the other can't match. LeBron can't match MJ's ability as a raw scorer. MJ cwn't match LeBron's peak efficiency (.649 TSP?). There are a ton of similarities, though. Both have 4 PER seasons over 30. Both could do it in all areas of the game. Their D, rebounding and assists speak to that.