Sean Miller

[TucsonClip]

Thanks for all the responses. Just trying to weigh my thoughts and feelings with the collective base to see if I'm overreacting or not.

Either way, I still feel as though next year is massive. An early flameout and I'm gonna be pretty pissed off, for numerous reasons. Obviously, all speculative on my end but there are a few things I'll be watching for to see if Miller can deliver. Number one being his pitch on running two "PGs."

[azcat49]

And I can tell you that the leadership under Robbins is absolutely on fire right now.

Not every body feels that way that's for sure. He's not the guy I'm talking about though at least at the moment.

Well I have heard Heeke is never in his office and seems somewhat out of touch but I just figured he was pressing the flesh with boosters or on the road following the teams. Assuming of course this is who you are alluding too

[Beachcat97]

To be clear, I'd say the bar for next season is as follows:

-Pac champs
-Pac tourney (reach the final game)
-E8 or better

I get that people are going to say it has to be "F4 or better," but I think that's unfair.

[Captain Obvious]

To be clear, I'd say the bar for next season is as follows:

-Pac champs
-Pac tourney (reach the final game)
-E8 or better

I get that people are going to say it has to be "F4 or better," but I think that's unfair.

Those are conservative yet realistic expectations for Arizona. F4 or better isn't an unfair expectation at all. Miller will be in his 11th or 12th year. His window to break through is fading quickly IMHO. As far as I'm concerned it's time to shit or get off the pot. Fans don't want excuses; they want results.

[Beachcat97]

To be clear, I'd say the bar for next season is as follows:

-Pac champs
-Pac tourney (reach the final game)
-E8 or better

I get that people are going to say it has to be "F4 or better," but I think that's unfair.

Those are conservative yet realistic expectations for Arizona. F4 or better isn't an unfair expectation at all. Miller will be in his 11th or 12th year. His window to break through is fading quickly IMHO. As far as I'm concerned it's time to shit or get off the pot. Fans don't want excuses; they want results.

Those are only "conservative" expectations to a spoiled fan, imo. Pac champs and an E8 or better is a very good season. I agree with those who've said in this thread that winning a single E8 game is not the difference between a great coach and merely a good one. If you can look at Miller's body of work at AZ and feel "let down," you're probably a tad joyless.

Look, we all want a F4. But do I want one so bad that I'd turn on a coach who's produced as much as Miller has? F*** no.

[Postmaster]

And I can tell you that the leadership under Robbins is absolutely on fire right now.

Not every body feels that way that's for sure. He's not the guy I'm talking about though at least at the moment.

Well I have heard Heeke is never in his office and seems somewhat out of touch but I just figured he was pressing the flesh with boosters or the n the road following the teams. Assuming of course this is who you are alluding too

They have been remodeling his office for quite some time. Maybe that’s why he isn’t there.

[Newportcat]

Choo

I usually 1000% agree with you but Barnes was fired from texas, and tubby was told to leave.

Your justifications for Miller taking an inferior job are poor unless Arizona fired him which the Davis family is not going to sign up for and only way our program can afford to do it.

Miller ain’t leaving unless a better job comes calling. College coaches strive to find the easiest places to recruit to. That has been proven time and time again. Miller is hell bent on proving he is an elite basketball coach do to me he wants to be st a place where you can recruit at an elite level.

Maybe you know something I don’t though so could be wrong. I think the idea of Miller leaving for an inferior job is pretty laughable. Honestly, when has a college coach really ever done that under their own free will. And has it ever worked out?

Damn you're right. Barnes got the Tennessee job like literally the following day, which is why I overlooked that, kudos Newport. FWIW I also don't believe Miller would leave for a lower pressure job either. I think if it did happen it would be on Arizona's end. I certainly am not expecting it FWIW, just saying the possibility certainly exists.

I agree if Arizona let him go or forced him out he would go to a lower pressure job. I just don’t see that happening anytime soon given the state of our athletic department

[Spaceman Spiff]

To be clear, I'd say the bar for next season is as follows:

-Pac champs
-Pac tourney (reach the final game)
-E8 or better

I get that people are going to say it has to be "F4 or better," but I think that's unfair.

Those are conservative yet realistic expectations for Arizona. F4 or better isn't an unfair expectation at all. Miller will be in his 11th or 12th year. His window to break through is fading quickly IMHO. As far as I'm concerned it's time to shit or get off the pot. Fans don't want excuses; they want results.

Miller has produced consistently better results than Lute.

People act like it requires different ability to win in the regular season vs the tourney, instead of luck.

[Newportcat]

To be clear, I'd say the bar for next season is as follows:

-Pac champs
-Pac tourney (reach the final game)
-E8 or better

I get that people are going to say it has to be "F4 or better," but I think that's unfair.

Those are conservative yet realistic expectations for Arizona. F4 or better isn't an unfair expectation at all. Miller will be in his 11th or 12th year. His window to break through is fading quickly IMHO. As far as I'm concerned it's time to shit or get off the pot. Fans don't want excuses; they want results.

Miller has produced consistently better results than Lute.

People act like it requires different ability to win in the regular season vs the tourney, instead of luck.

No single event in all of team sports to me requires more luck then the NCAA tournament to win at. You get no major advantage from regular season performance outside of playing easier teams first. But eventually you play very good teams and its played on neutral courts so no home court advantage everand it’s single elimination. And you only get one day between games to play a team 99.0% of the time you have not played that season.

I literally hate the tournament on one hand but love it on the other

And if I am Miller or any other college coach I would fucking hate it beyond belief for how utterly irrational it is yet your legeacy in college basketball is completely tied to it.

[Newportcat]

My biggest fear with Miller is the Dick Tomey syndrome. You have a coach who takes your program to good, very respectable levels but is not perfect and has flaws. Over time those flaws seem to be so glaring that people get bored when they see them and they don't change. So people force change for the sake of change because "He has not taken us to a Rose Bowl"

Not necessarily everyone on this site, but if you read other comments by Arizona fans and from talking with my college buddies, its clear everyone is in this, Final Four or bust mentality over the next 2 seasons. If we do not make a Final Four in 2020 or 2021 I think drum beat by a lot of fans will be VERY LOUD. I am not saying we give Miller a lifetime contract, I am saying a lot of fans do not see the massive downsides to moving on from Miller. They think its easy to find the next Lute. I think its much easier to find the next Ben Lindsey.

[BBQ wildcat]

My biggest fear with Miller is the Dick Tomey syndrome. You have a coach who takes your program to good, very respectable levels but is not perfect and has flaws. Over time those flaws seem to be so glaring that people get bored when they see them and they don't change. So people force change for the sake of change because "He has not taken us to a Rose Bowl"

Not necessarily everyone on this site, but if you read other comments by Arizona fans and from talking with my college buddies, its clear everyone is in this, Final Four or bust mentality over the next 2 seasons. If we do not make a Final Four in 2020 or 2021 I think drum beat by a lot of fans will be VERY LOUD. I am not saying we give Miller a lifetime contract, I am saying a lot of fans do not see the massive downsides to moving on from Miller. They think its easy to find the next Lute. I think its much easier to find the next Ben Lindsey.

AMEN

[PHXCATS]

I am not saying fire Miller today but the idea that it is absolutely certain that a new coach cant do better than Miller is so wrong on every level

[Spaceman Spiff]

Here's what I think is silly about saying Miller's record is somehow not our standard. I think everyone would agree Lute met our standard.

Back to back seasons finishing Elite Eight or better. Lute, 1. Miller, 1.

Runs of 3 EE or better in 5 years without double counting seasons. Lute, 1. Miller, 1.

Runs of 3 EE or better in 5 years if you do double count seasons. Lute, 3. Miller, 1. All of Lute's 3 in 5 runs came more than 11 years into his tenure here.

Average final AP rank for Miller's last 6 seasons. 10.5.

Averate final AP rank for Lute's best 6 season run in his Arizona career. 8.16. Again, this was well after he'd been here 11 seasons.

I wonder why we're complaining. If you limit to first 11 seasons, Miller actually does better than Lute in a lot of areas.

[Beachcat97]

I wonder why we're complaining. If you limit to first 11 seasons, Miller actually does better than Lute in a lot of areas.

In a way, Spiff, you've just proven what some here are deadset on rejecting: that reaching the FF matters way, way more than everything else. If Sean had won even one of his E8 games, I think the complaining grows much quieter. Maybe this is just how it is. The coach who loses in 10 E8s just isn't as celebrated and appreciated as the coach who wins a single E8 game.

For the record, I'm on the "keep Miller" side. I like how you've shown how he compares to Lute. It puts things in perspective. We all knew going into this season that the roster was weaker than usual, and yet here we are, right there in the mix for another Pac title. That doesn't happen by accident.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I wonder why we're complaining. If you limit to first 11 seasons, Miller actually does better than Lute in a lot of areas.

In a way, Spiff, you've just proven what some here are deadset on rejecting: that reaching the FF matters way, way more than everything else. If Sean had won even one of his E8 games, I think the complaining grows much quieter. Maybe this is just how it is. The coach who loses in 10 E8s just isn't as celebrated and appreciated as the coach who wins a single E8 game.

For the record, I'm on the "keep Miller" side. I like how you've shown how he compares to Lute. It puts things in perspective. We all knew going into this season that the roster was weaker than usual, and yet here we are, right there in the mix for another Pac title. That doesn't happen by accident.

Yeah, but that's just the point I made earlier. Miller isn't any better or worse for us if Wisky doesn't shoot lights out in 14-15. He isn't a better coach if Ashley doesn't break his foot.

The Final Four over all perspective makes people take ridiculous positions like John Brady being better than Mark Few until 2 years ago. It isn't like Mark Few somehow cracked the code that Brady knew. Stuff just broke Zaga's way. If Brady knew more, he should have applied that to keeping his job.

Or Kevin Ollie. He's a NC winner, and then turned that "knowledge" into losing his job. It's silly to link our eval of a coach to the thing that's least predictive of actual coaching quality.

[Bear Down Vegas]

I am not saying fire Miller today but the idea that it is absolutely certain that a new coach cant do better than Miller is so wrong on every level

Look amigo (I use the term loosely), if you take "absolutely certain" out of your post it's silly. Of course there's a chance we could get a better coach. But the idea that it is more than a pipe dream that a new coach would do better than Miller is what is so wrong on every level.

How have you managed to stay this amount of odd, deaf & blind for so many years? CSM is one of the top 10 coaches in college basketball. It's not even hyperbole.

[Beachcat97]

It's silly to link our eval of a coach to the thing that's least predictive of actual coaching quality.

I completely agree. I think this is part of why I care so much about Pac titles. League titles are an indication of a team/program's success over an entire season. There are a lot of us here who would trade five of Miller's Pac titles for one FF. I wouldn't. I want consistent success over an extended period. I want a coach who puts us in a position to win Pac titles and advance deep in the tourney again and again, as Miller has.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I am not saying fire Miller today but the idea that it is absolutely certain that a new coach cant do better than Miller is so wrong on every level

Look amigo (I use the term loosely), if you take "absolutely certain" out of your post it's a damn joke. Of course there's a chance we could get a better coach. But the idea that it is more than a pipe dream that a new coach would do better than Miller is so wrong on every level.

How have you managed to stay this amount of odd, deaf & blind for so many years? CSM is one of the top 10 coaches in college basketball. It's not even hyperbole.

There's a chance if WSU fired Ernie Kent, their next hire would win 5 NC's in a row. I mean, nothing's ever certain.

Maybe I buy a lottery ticket. That doesn't mean I spend all 500 million before I win.

[PHXCATS]

I am not saying fire Miller today but the idea that it is absolutely certain that a new coach cant do better than Miller is so wrong on every level

Look amigo (I use the term loosely), if you take "absolutely certain" out of your post it's silly. Of course there's a chance we could get a better coach. But the idea that it is more than a pipe dream that a new coach would do better than Miller is what is so wrong on every level.

How have you managed to stay this amount of odd, deaf & blind for so many years? CSM is one of the top 10 coaches in college basketball. It's not even hyperbole.

BDV man you must have missed all the FBI, ESPN and ABOR stuff where I defended Miller hard core. I have not said Miller is a bad coach. I have not said Miller needs to go. Miller has his strengths and weaknesses just like every other coach.

With the fans that Arizona has, the resources it has, the tradition it has, etc it is not impossible to think a coach can come in and get a final four here though in the first 10 season with them at Arizona.

Top ten coaches today? Yeah probably. I cant come up with ten better than him for sure

Not in order
Wright
K
Cal
Izzo
Williams
Self

Those are the no doubt better than Miller

Similar level
Marshall
Few
Bennett
Beilein
Brey
Huggins
Boeheim

I would say top ten is most likely

Will you be at TMobile in March?

[Bear Down Vegas]

Will you be at TMobile in March?

I will be for a part of it for sure. If I remember right, you tend to stay downtown? We should grab those beers at some point because I really want to believe that the times I really disagree with you are more lost in context than not. If you play golf I got you too.

But Andy Katz wasn't bat shit crazy when he said it was going to be a long rebuilding period. Miller came in & hardly missed a beat. These conversations are getting too repetitive but Coach's run in Tucson is literally a handful of inches, injuries & slander away from being a top three program in the nation these ten years. If you agree with that - that puts him within 4, right? Through all of the Larry Scott & Pac 12 BS, Sean Miller has chosen to stay here because he loves this program as much as Lute did & he's going to keep doing how he do. Cheers to the witch.

[PHXCATS]

Will you be at TMobile in March?

I will be for a part of it for sure. If I remember right, you tend to stay downtown? We should grab those beers at some point because I really want to believe that the times I really disagree with you are more lost in context than not. If you play golf I got you too.

But Andy Katz wasn't bat shit crazy when he said it was going to be a long rebuilding period. Miller came in & hardly missed a beat. These conversations are getting too repetitive but Coach's run in Tucson is literally a handful of inches, injuries & slander away from being a top three program in the nation these ten years. If you agree with that - that puts him within 4, right? Through all of the Larry Scott & Pac 12 BS, Sean Miller has chosen to stay here because he loves this program as much as Lute did & he's going to keep doing how he do. Cheers to the witch.

Beers for sure. I love downtown but we stay at Mandalay now. My wife and I have gone there the last few years for the PAC-12 so it is our new tradition.

Miller did an amazing job those first few years. That first team of his was really great to watch even though they didnt make the NCAA. He is a great coach for sure, not perfect though but no one is. Lets just hope the Cats make the final four this year and then none of us have to worry about anything with this topic anymore. But first finish the regular season strong and then Vegas. Saturday was great to see, although I could only catch the first half due to my goddaughter's birthday party (her parents need to not have parties without TV anymore). The fact that our most dominating player went out and the team bear downed and didnt quit and adjusted was great to see. Well done Miller, staff and players for that great performance. Also nice to hit my -5 and my -10 for +210 bets

[Spaceman Spiff]

PHX, having Wright in the top ten is a great example of why Miller is a top ten coach.

Before 3 years ago, no one would have put Wright in the top ten. He had 1 final fours and some disappointing results, including a losing season. Pull the last 3 years and Miller is clearly more consistently successful than Wright. Then Wright wins the 2 nattys and he's widely considered top five.

People are ****ing a brick because we're a bubble team and Wright went 13-19 exactly 11 years into his tenure at Villanova. The reality of coaching is that the level of consistent success Miller has had is at a level even top ten guys don't match in every way.

[PHXCATS]

Wright was a very good coach before these two titles. But you make very good valid points

Of all the guys I put on a similar level, I would probably choose only one coach over Miller when you factor in age and other things

[EastCoastCat]

When CSM makes the Final Four which I certainly expect to happen soon this conversation will be moot.

It's going to happen guys. He is just too good a coach as well as an elite recruiter for it not to.

We will keep knocking on the door like we have done 3x prior and when it finally happens we will all be singing a different tune. So let the cup half empty talk continue I guess...

The Witch will have the last laugh.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Wright was a very good coach before these two titles. But you make very good valid points

Of all the guys I put on a similar level, I would probably choose only one coach over Miller when you factor in age and other things

Years 10-12 of Wright's career, he went 21-12, 13-19 and 20-14.

That should be a final level argument about why you NEVER get rid of a really good coach hoping for a great one. It's far easier for a good coach to break through struggles than hit the jackpot hiring someone better.

Even guys like Wright struggle. It's just not that simple to win consistently over time. It drops my jaw that some people think Miller's current level of results warrants him getting axed.

[pc in NM]

Lute was no better, or worse, a coach after his first final four than he was before...

... the same applies to CSM, wether or not he ever makes a final four.

[PHXCATS]

Wright was a very good coach before these two titles. But you make very good valid points

Of all the guys I put on a similar level, I would probably choose only one coach over Miller when you factor in age and other things

Years 10-12 of Wright's career, he went 21-12, 13-19 and 20-14.

That should be a final level argument about why you NEVER get rid of a really good coach hoping for a great one. It's far easier for a good coach to break through struggles than hit the jackpot hiring someone better.

Even guys like Wright struggle. It's just not that simple to win consistently over time. It drops my jaw that some people think Miller's current level of results warrants him getting axed.

Wright made a final four in his 8th season at Nova

[TheCat]

To be clear, I'd say the bar for next season is as follows:

-Pac champs
-Pac tourney (reach the final game)
-E8 or better

I get that people are going to say it has to be "F4 or better," but I think that's unfair.

Those are conservative yet realistic expectations for Arizona. F4 or better isn't an unfair expectation at all. Miller will be in his 11th or 12th year. His window to break through is fading quickly IMHO. As far as I'm concerned it's time to shit or get off the pot. Fans don't want excuses; they want results.

I guess you would have fired Jay Wright then.......good for you.

The Jaybird has won the conference 4 times in 17 years, posted a conference win = 65.1% (which would get you fired at AZ) and a overall of 71.5%......less than our coach right?

[Newportcat]

I am not saying fire Miller today but the idea that it is absolutely certain that a new coach cant do better than Miller is so wrong on every level

I actually unblocked PHXCATS to quote this comment. I never said its absolutely certain a new coach can't do better then Miller. The only certainties in life are death, taxes, and retreads being awful College football coaches for Arizona football. We could find a better coach then Miller....I believe the chances are slim. I think we hit the lottery going from Lute to Sean Miller. To do it again, well that is really pressing our luck. I think it is absolutely wrong on so many levels to think we have a good chance of finding a better coach the Miller. I would put the odds at 10-15% we land a coach as good or better then Miller.

If I have learned anything about College athletics specifically Arizona, its when you have a good coach, support the hell out of them and pray they stay long term because they are hard to find. When you have a bad one, fire them quickly if possible and move on.

Sean Miller is a very good coach who is entering the prime of his career.

The most hilarious thing to me will be him making a Final Four in the next two years and everyone freaking out about him leaving for one of the Marquee jobs that should be coming up soon ie UNC, etc.

[Newportcat]

To be clear, I'd say the bar for next season is as follows:

-Pac champs
-Pac tourney (reach the final game)
-E8 or better

I get that people are going to say it has to be "F4 or better," but I think that's unfair.

Those are conservative yet realistic expectations for Arizona. F4 or better isn't an unfair expectation at all. Miller will be in his 11th or 12th year. His window to break through is fading quickly IMHO. As far as I'm concerned it's time to shit or get off the pot. Fans don't want excuses; they want results.

I guess you would have fired Jay Wright then.......good for you.

His window is fading???? Do we not have a Top 5 recruiting class coming in next year???? Is he 75 years old???

What fucking window is fading quickly???? Miller probably coaches at least another 20 to maybe 25 years. He has plenty of time still especially given this years recruiting class proves that literally nothing will stop him from being an Elite recruiter.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Wright was a very good coach before these two titles. But you make very good valid points

Of all the guys I put on a similar level, I would probably choose only one coach over Miller when you factor in age and other things

Years 10-12 of Wright's career, he went 21-12, 13-19 and 20-14.

That should be a final level argument about why you NEVER get rid of a really good coach hoping for a great one. It's far easier for a good coach to break through struggles than hit the jackpot hiring someone better.

Even guys like Wright struggle. It's just not that simple to win consistently over time. It drops my jaw that some people think Miller's current level of results warrants him getting axed.

Wright made a final four in his 8th season at Nova

Yes, and Miller owns Wright in every other metric to this point in their respective careers. The FF is something, but a lot of meh coaches have made the FF.

Top of my head:

Mike Davis
John Brady
Paul Hewitt
Jim Boeheim (this is entirely based on my personal dislike of him, not his coaching record)
Jim Harrick
Bruce Weber (and screw the team he took there for all eternity)

[cats101]

Wright was a very good coach before these two titles. But you make very good valid points

Of all the guys I put on a similar level, I would probably choose only one coach over Miller when you factor in age and other things

Years 10-12 of Wright's career, he went 21-12, 13-19 and 20-14.

That should be a final level argument about why you NEVER get rid of a really good coach hoping for a great one. It's far easier for a good coach to break through struggles than hit the jackpot hiring someone better.

Even guys like Wright struggle. It's just not that simple to win consistently over time. It drops my jaw that some people think Miller's current level of results warrants him getting axed.

Wright made a final four in his 8th season at Nova

Yes, and Miller owns Wright in every other metric to this point in their respective careers. The FF is something, but a lot of meh coaches have made the FF.

Top of my head:

Mike Davis
John Brady
Paul Hewitt
Jim Boeheim (this is entirely based on my personal dislike of him, not his coaching record)
Jim Harrick
Bruce Weber (and screw the team he took there for all eternity)

...and Kevin Ollie wont a 'ship at UConn and now doesn't have a job. Tubby won a 'ship at Kentucky and is now coaching at High Point. Some people just don't have perspective.

edit: actually i'll take the Tubby one out. Think he "voluntarily" let UK, which may or may not have been mentioned above. Just catching up. Fans got restless and pressured him out.

[Longhorned]

I don't think there's a better coach in college basketball.

If his window is fading, I say put on some sunglasses, or don't mix up the metaphors.

If his window is closing, I think that's possible, but it would have more to do with the fanbase sharing the rest of the world's overvalue on Final Fours. I hope the fanbase goes easy on the pressure and turns out to be as sophisticated about Miller's trajectory as they are about what's happening on the court, because Arizona fans really are special, and Miller is going to be a hell of a winning coach either way.

[Main Event]

He just turned 50, he recruits entirely too well to be worried about a window. We lost our entire starting 5 which had Ayton, had a FBI raid, and we're talking a FF or bust run the following year.

That said, I think he's prob got the most important recruit in his tenure coming in with Nico next year. I'd like to see him take advantage

[ChooChooCat]

My biggest fear with Miller is the Dick Tomey syndrome. You have a coach who takes your program to good, very respectable levels but is not perfect and has flaws. Over time those flaws seem to be so glaring that people get bored when they see them and they don't change. So people force change for the sake of change because "He has not taken us to a Rose Bowl"

Not necessarily everyone on this site, but if you read other comments by Arizona fans and from talking with my college buddies, its clear everyone is in this, Final Four or bust mentality over the next 2 seasons. If we do not make a Final Four in 2020 or 2021 I think drum beat by a lot of fans will be VERY LOUD. I am not saying we give Miller a lifetime contract, I am saying a lot of fans do not see the massive downsides to moving on from Miller. They think its easy to find the next Lute. I think its much easier to find the next Ben Lindsey.

Anyone remember that local news broadcast after we lost in the S16 to Xavier where the female reporter is at a local bar discussing the game live and some dude comes up and screams "FUCK SEAN MILLER?" There are tons of those fans out there.

[zonagrad]

To be clear, I'd say the bar for next season is as follows:

-Pac champs
-Pac tourney (reach the final game)
-E8 or better

I get that people are going to say it has to be "F4 or better," but I think that's unfair.

Those are conservative yet realistic expectations for Arizona. F4 or better isn't an unfair expectation at all. Miller will be in his 11th or 12th year. His window to break through is fading quickly IMHO. As far as I'm concerned it's time to shit or get off the pot. Fans don't want excuses; they want results.

IMHO? Why is the window fading? The window heading into next season looks a helluva lot wider than 2010, when it looked like Arizona was a long-term rebuild and then Derrick Williams was better than a 3* and was the best player in college basketball as a sophomore.

IMHO?? Your humble opinion? What's so humble about it? It's asinine.

If Arizona had listened to Greg Hansen, Dick Vitale and the rest of the assholes at ESPN, Miller would've been fired in midseason. Arizona would probably have a huge lawsuit on their hands for firing him without cause. And Arizona would've been out $$$millions in settlement. Oh, and then Arizona would have to find a new head coach, which means the current #1 class that RIGHT NOW could probably win the Pac this year wouldn't be on the way. Good grief.

[zonagrad]

My biggest fear with Miller is the Dick Tomey syndrome. You have a coach who takes your program to good, very respectable levels but is not perfect and has flaws. Over time those flaws seem to be so glaring that people get bored when they see them and they don't change. So people force change for the sake of change because "He has not taken us to a Rose Bowl"

Not necessarily everyone on this site, but if you read other comments by Arizona fans and from talking with my college buddies, its clear everyone is in this, Final Four or bust mentality over the next 2 seasons. If we do not make a Final Four in 2020 or 2021 I think drum beat by a lot of fans will be VERY LOUD. I am not saying we give Miller a lifetime contract, I am saying a lot of fans do not see the massive downsides to moving on from Miller. They think its easy to find the next Lute. I think its much easier to find the next Ben Lindsey.

Anyone remember that local news broadcast after we lost in the S16 to Xavier where the female reporter is at a local bar discussing the game live and some dude comes up and screams "FUCK SEAN MILLER?" There are tons of those fans out there.

And there were just as many back in '92 & '93. And those fans can't handle their liquor, nor do they know shit about basketball.

[zonagrad]

I am not saying fire Miller today but the idea that it is absolutely certain that a new coach cant do better than Miller is so wrong on every level

But the idea that a new coach is likely to do much worse than Miller is almost a damn certainty.

[RawleArenas]

I am not saying fire Miller today but the idea that it is absolutely certain that a new coach cant do better than Miller is so wrong on every level

Look amigo (I use the term loosely), if you take "absolutely certain" out of your post it's silly. Of course there's a chance we could get a better coach. But the idea that it is more than a pipe dream that a new coach would do better than Miller is what is so wrong on every level.

How have you managed to stay this amount of odd, deaf & blind for so many years? CSM is one of the top 10 coaches in college basketball. It's not even hyperbole.

BDV man you must have missed all the FBI, ESPN and ABOR stuff where I defended Miller hard core. I have not said Miller is a bad coach. I have not said Miller needs to go. Miller has his strengths and weaknesses just like every other coach.

With the fans that Arizona has, the resources it has, the tradition it has, etc it is not impossible to think a coach can come in and get a final four here though in the first 10 season with them at Arizona.

Top ten coaches today? Yeah probably. I cant come up with ten better than him for sure

Not in order
Wright
K
Cal
Izzo
Williams
Self

Those are the no doubt better than Miller

Similar level
Marshall
Few
Bennett
Beilein
Brey
Huggins
Boeheim

I would say top ten is most likely

Will you be at TMobile in March?

I agree with you on most of those names, however I think that Beilein, not K or Wright is the best coach pound for pound in the country. He gets overlooked because he doesn't recruit at a high level and he appears to be ready to hit retirement soon.

Miller has a winning record against a lot of the high profile coaches including Coach K, Izzo and Beilein. The tournament is the great equalizer in college athletics unfortunately. It can make a great coach look pedestrian, just ask Tony Bennett.

I think the things that hurt the program the most was that Miller did not expect the drop off from TJ to be so steep. When you enter a single elimination tournament style game, you have to have a point guard that can take over the game at a moment's notice. PJC was not built that way, although he tried his best. Miller had a lot of problems trying to correct it, a la Trevon Duval, however when he decided to go Duke our FF aspirations went with him.

[Bear Down Vegas]

I am not saying fire Miller today but the idea that it is absolutely certain that a new coach cant do better than Miller is so wrong on every level

But the idea that a new coach is likely to do much worse than Miller is almost a damn certainty.

This. It really does seem that the gap between Arizona fans who do & don't see this distinction is a lot wider than I thought. Which sucks. Spoiled by Lute & Sean's success is probably the best way I can put it. FOH if you can't appreciate the time, effort & grind put in by both the staff & the players. We barely missed the F4 three times?? That's those fan's cloud over Miller??? Seriously, FOH.

[prh]

Seriously, we're back to a new coach could be better than Sean and looking at Jay Wright? Those horses were buried weeks ago

[CalStateTempe]

Wtf is going on in this thread?

[zonagrad]

It's like we have to clean house every month or so on this board. What's that game? Whack a mole?

[Beachcat97]

Anyhoo...two tough games this week. Really need a road split. I'll take it to the 2018-19 thread.

Bear down!

[catgrad97]

In this post-Lute college basketball landscape, Miller could miss the Final Four through 2030 and it wouldn't be his fault.

I will agree that, for better or worse, one criterion for "elite" CBB programs nationally is FF appearances. Arizona's near-20-year drought in that area is slipping the program out of that conversation, especially with more recent appearances by Oregon and Gonzaga (multiple times).

I also agree that next year is a "show cause" year for the program, with all the talent he has brought in.

But any person who would make Sean Miller personally accountable--to the point of firing him--for the decisions of every player on the court for this period has his thinking completely backwards. Especially in this historically weak Pac-12.

The conference is the least competitive and least supportive of its athletic programs at any time since I started following the Cats in 1982. The self-destructive, provincial officiating enables finesse and acting over fairness, the conference presidents are generally out of touch AND out of their depth in support of an incompetent commissioner, and don't even bring up the idea of tougher scheduling.

If you still think Sean Miller should be above all that, break through all of it and engineer a Final Four in spite of all of it, you're never going to understand what it takes to win in college hoops anymore.

All of those reasons disregard the ESPN money (as corrupting an influence on the sport, if not more, than shoe money), exposure and bias it barely conceals anymore in favor of its Power 5 schools under multi-year contracts. Miller and Robert Robbins officially allied against that classist, corrupt garbage in 2018, and until one goes, the other is staying at Arizona as well.

[zonagrad]

In this post-Lute college basketball landscape, Miller could miss the Final Four through 2030 and it wouldn't be his fault.

I will agree that, for better or worse, one criterion for "elite" CBB programs nationally is FF appearances. Arizona's near-20-year drought in that area is slipping the program out of that conversation, especially with more recent appearances by Oregon and Gonzaga (multiple times).

I also agree that next year is a "show cause" year for the program, with all the talent he has brought in.

But any person who would make Sean Miller personally accountable--to the point of firing him--for the decisions of every player on the court for this period has his thinking completely backwards. Especially in this historically weak Pac-12.

The conference is the least competitive and least supportive of its athletic programs at any time since I started following the Cats in 1982. The self-destructive, provincial officiating enables finesse and acting over fairness, the conference presidents are generally out of touch AND out of their depth in support of an incompetent commissioner, and don't even bring up the idea of tougher scheduling.

If you still think Sean Miller should be above all that, break through all of it and engineer a Final Four in spite of all of it, you're never going to understand what it takes to win in college hoops anymore.

All of those reasons disregard the ESPN money (as corrupting an influence on the sport, if not more, than shoe money), exposure and bias it barely conceals anymore in favor of its Power 5 schools under multi-year contracts. Miller and Robert Robbins officially allied against that classist, corrupt garbage in 2018, and until one goes, the other is staying at Arizona as well.

Great post. In some respects, we're seeing the same stuff play out that happened in the late 80s when Arizona was carrying water for the conference. Lute could make a few more waves because of the '88 Final Four and the #1 ranking that accompanied the program during those years. But the conference was still tone deaf to the problems.

Enter Miller, and the tone deafness continues. Only now, we have a commissioner whose compensation is wholly out of line with his value. He's the modern day version of Juan Antonio Samaranch, arrogantly parading around like a king and acting as though he's accomplished something. The major decisions to Larry Scott's resume are:
1) arriving at a time when the Pac 10 media deal was expiring and negotiating a new deal. And any new deal would've meant more money. Yet even Scott has managed to screw up a sure thing. And then doubling down on the same shitty deal.

2) moving the Pac 12 conference tournament to Vegas.

Any beat writer could've managed these two decisions. They were that obvious and low hanging fruit. And yet Scott acts as though he's always on the verge of greatness but consistently under delivers.

And finally, it still burns me from the Ed Rush fiasco. More heads should have rolled from the officiating scandal. Under Hart, Arizona's leadership was only supportive of Miller but did not go on the offensive against the powers that be in the Pac 12.

Sean Miller doesn't need a Final Four to acquit himself with me. But knocking off that mark against him will silence the doubters. Getting a natty would put Arizona above the fray regarding the mishandled conference that continues to sink to the lowest common denominator.
What Arizona basketball has done for the Pac 12 and the other schools over the years can't be understated. It's a shame it can't be quantified.

The quote from Miller in the Jon Wilner piece about the lack of will involving other conference members speaks volumes. Arizona is doing everything it can. It's time for some of the others to get out of the cart and push as well.

[ChooChooCat]

My biggest fear with Miller is the Dick Tomey syndrome. You have a coach who takes your program to good, very respectable levels but is not perfect and has flaws. Over time those flaws seem to be so glaring that people get bored when they see them and they don't change. So people force change for the sake of change because "He has not taken us to a Rose Bowl"

Not necessarily everyone on this site, but if you read other comments by Arizona fans and from talking with my college buddies, its clear everyone is in this, Final Four or bust mentality over the next 2 seasons. If we do not make a Final Four in 2020 or 2021 I think drum beat by a lot of fans will be VERY LOUD. I am not saying we give Miller a lifetime contract, I am saying a lot of fans do not see the massive downsides to moving on from Miller. They think its easy to find the next Lute. I think its much easier to find the next Ben Lindsey.

Anyone remember that local news broadcast after we lost in the S16 to Xavier where the female reporter is at a local bar discussing the game live and some dude comes up and screams "FUCK SEAN MILLER?" There are tons of those fans out there.

And there were just as many back in '92 & '93. And those fans can't handle their liquor, nor do they know shit about basketball.

Agreed.

[ChooChooCat]

I am not saying fire Miller today but the idea that it is absolutely certain that a new coach cant do better than Miller is so wrong on every level

But the idea that a new coach is likely to do much worse than Miller is almost a damn certainty.

If we're hiring Jim Boylen sure. Arizona wouldn't be short of very good choices after Miller proved it wasn't just a one coach program. I'm not going to say Arizona would be better without Miller, but to act as if no coach can duplicate Miller's success here or exceed it is just dumb, sorry.

[KingG]

It's silly to link our eval of a coach to the thing that's least predictive of actual coaching quality.

I completely agree. I think this is part of why I care so much about Pac titles. League titles are an indication of a team/program's success over an entire season. There are a lot of us here who would trade five of Miller's Pac titles for one FF. I wouldn't. I want consistent success over an extended period. I want a coach who puts us in a position to win Pac titles and advance deep in the tourney again and again, as Miller has.

PAC12 titles are overrated. All they mean is we’re the best team in a weak conference. The PAC has basically become a mid-major conference that doesn’t fully prepare us for the toughness needed to win in the NCAA tourney.

[zonagrad]

It's silly to link our eval of a coach to the thing that's least predictive of actual coaching quality.

I completely agree. I think this is part of why I care so much about Pac titles. League titles are an indication of a team/program's success over an entire season. There are a lot of us here who would trade five of Miller's Pac titles for one FF. I wouldn't. I want consistent success over an extended period. I want a coach who puts us in a position to win Pac titles and advance deep in the tourney again and again, as Miller has.

PAC12 titles are overrated. All they mean is we’re the best team in a weak conference. The PAC has basically become a mid-major conference that doesn’t fully prepare us for the toughness needed to win in the NCAA tourney.

Yet the Pac continues to rate among the highest conferences turning out NBA players. Look at the rosters. The Pac is very well represented.