Sean Miller

[CatFanOneMil]

Totally agree with Harvey...spot on...we ARE spoiled...over 300 schools in Div I and we expect to win everything every year or at least be one of the top 4 at the end...sheesh...not even Pro teams expect that much and people get pissed when they do (Patriots anyone?).

As far as Miller and PackLine D...I do have to agree it is pretty boring and pedestrian and frankly the entire game needs some new thinking...

Somewhere some guy invented the zone defense...some other guy invented the pick and roll...someone somewhere thought up the packline...annnnnd we're stuck...

But someone will come up with something new...its the nature of humans to evolve and the sports arena has become the the testing grounds of evolution that used to be the Serengeti or the jungle or wherever the hell humanity tried out its new tools to compete with nature...and honestly we tend to miss the micro evolution in the sport because its too close to us...just think how college basketball has changed in just the last 10 years...

Miller said himself at the beginning of THIS season, that Nov. and Dec. determined if you made the tournament...THAT is where things have currently evolved to and he basically told us back then we weren't going...

Millers greatest Achilles heel might also be his greatest strength...his dogged stubbornness...he's young enough to stay in the race...and he's stubborn enough to win a championship...and I honestly think he's humble enough to sit down and come up with something new...something novel something no one else has tried...it just needs quite a few ingredients to be in place plus a fucking lot of luck...

Which if anyone was listening to Lute you should know that LUCK is a MAJOR factor...even he knew its almost impossible for everything to fall into place and without luck it will never happen.

We as fans should spend the off season doing everything in our power to increase the mojo to attract some decent luck...go cut off your rabbits foot or something...

But to think we get to a final four without luck is to ignore reality...and THAT should settle any stupid comments about timelines for Miller to perform...NO ONE controls luck...

Maybe Miller will get lucky during the off season and see a new way of playing that no one has thought of yet...I can't believe we've exhausted every style of basketball there is...someone will come up with the new thing, if we're lucky it will happen first in Tucson.

[CalStateTempe]

Welcome back Harv!

Always refreshing to hear your well written takes.

[MountainCat]

Totally agree with Harvey...spot on...we ARE spoiled...over 300 schools in Div I and we expect to win everything every year or at least be one of the top 4 at the end...sheesh...not even Pro teams expect that much and people get pissed when they do (Patriots anyone?).

As far as Miller and PackLine D...I do have to agree it is pretty boring and pedestrian and frankly the entire game needs some new thinking...

Somewhere some guy invented the zone defense...some other guy invented the pick and roll...someone somewhere thought up the packline...annnnnd we're stuck...

But someone will come up with something new...its the nature of humans to evolve and the sports arena has become the the testing grounds of evolution that used to be the Serengeti or the jungle or wherever the hell humanity tried out its new tools to compete with nature...and honestly we tend to miss the micro evolution in the sport because its too close to us...just think how college basketball has changed in just the last 10 years...

Miller said himself at the beginning of THIS season, that Nov. and Dec. determined if you made the tournament...THAT is where things have currently evolved to and he basically told us back then we weren't going...

Millers greatest Achilles heel might also be his greatest strength...his dogged stubbornness...he's young enough to stay in the race...and he's stubborn enough to win a championship...and I honestly think he's humble enough to sit down and come up with something new...something novel something no one else has tried...it just needs quite a few ingredients to be in place plus a fucking lot of luck...

Which if anyone was listening to Lute you should know that LUCK is a MAJOR factor...even he knew its almost impossible for everything to fall into place and without luck it will never happen.

We as fans should spend the off season doing everything in our power to increase the mojo to attract some decent luck...go cut off your rabbits foot or something...

But to think we get to a final four without luck is to ignore reality...and THAT should settle any stupid comments about timelines for Miller to perform...NO ONE controls luck...

Maybe Miller will get lucky during the off season and see a new way of playing that no one has thought of yet...I can't believe we've exhausted every style of basketball there is...someone will come up with the new thing, if we're lucky it will happen first in Tucson.

He's already done it..... It will be called the Man-Zone ....or the Manzone for short....Mannzione in a stretch.....but in reality it will be called the Mannion

Get ready!

[zonagrad]

Yes, we must demand Final Fours or National Championships... or else there MUST be consequences. After all, Tucson, AZ will ALWAYS recruit itself because it is the juggernaut that Lute built. I mean... let's ignore that (after this incoming class) there will almost assuredly never again be a HS recruit who was even alive the last time we went to a Final 4. Or any that could make a shot on a regulation-sized basket the last time Lute coached. It does not matter... the ARIZONA BRAND SELLS ITSELF.

UCLA enjoyed a far more dominant position in West Coast basketball than we ever approached. And Tarkanian-era UNLV, aside from being in a non-power conference (which the PAC has not really been in a LONG time), had almost EXACTLY the same pedigree (accomplishment wise) as Arizona enjoyed under Lute. 1 Natty & 4 Final 4's.

I am giving a complete pass on (i.e., ignoring) the past ~15 months... under the assumption that Miller is not found to have been involved in any major NCAA violations. He is guilty of some questionable personnel decisions regarding his staff, which is a legitimate concern and something Miller needs to avoid moving forward.

Those of you who keep saying that anything short of a Final 4 is unacceptable sounds ALMOST as ridiculous as ASU fans who think the Rose Bowl should be the expectation in Football for their program (they have been to 2, you know). It's been 18 years since our last one, for anyone who is counting.

If we can find a coach who is more likely to get us there than Miller, then let's have at it. But the risk/reward of making a change to elevate the program from the perennial performance he has delivered (sans the past 15 months) tilts SIGNIFICANTLY to the downside. Acting like repeated conference championships and E8/S16 appearances is so obtuse I can't believe how many people seem to accept it as gospel truth.

How much do you think UCLA or UNLV fans would like to have Sean Miller? Or a coach that provides the same total package? Those of you who think kids come to play for Arizona first and Miller second really need to take our NCAA history (and how far removed we are from it) in context of the age of current players. And then ask yourself... if you had zero ties to any of the schools in the discussion, and were an 18 year old kid who wanted to score on and off the court - what sounds more appealing? Moving to Westwood, Las Vegas, or Tucson? Hmmm....

Ned Wulk, late in his career, was BY FAR the best recruiter and coach ASU has ever sniffed. But he just wasn't good enough after 1 mediocre season, ASU's third in the PAC. (They finished runner-up in the first 2).

Most people mess up something good by looking for something better to end up with something worse, and the thing that history teaches us is that history does not teach us anything. But let's set all that aside... and go with the "PAc 12 Championship and Final 4 in 2020 or Miller is Out".

Sounds like a fail-proof plan.

This IMO is the feeling of most educated fans. It's the stupid fans who are ready to fire a coach because he loses in the Elite 8. I'll be happy as hell if we kick ass and win the Pac regular season title next year. It means a lot to me. Keep in mind, ASU has NEVER won the Pac title. NEVER EVER!!! And we act like it's no big deal. It is a big deal.

If we fall short of the final four and reach the Sweet 16 or Elite 8 it will be disappointing of course because we want more. But that doesn't mean we don't have a great coach and program. I'd much rather be Arizona right now, climbing back up that mountain than UCONN, which caught lightning in a bottle TWICE to win National titles. It goes to show just how fickle and unpredictable the NCAA tournament can be. A measure of a program's success isn't only the tournament. It's the conference titles, the overall record as even conference tournament success that should also be considered.

[zonagrad]

I'll reiterate that if we want March success, we need to schedule super tough in November and December. We can't stick to the same formula of scheduling. We need to go to Rupp, Cameron, etc... and just play regardless of a "return date." To hell with it. Let Miller publicly state that we're going to Durham to play Duke and that Duke is afraid to come to Tucson but we're not afraid to go to Durham. Let that be his ONLY INTERVIEW with ESPN. Coach K will shit his pants with anger because he's lost his last two meetings with Arizona and Miller. His pride will probably force him to say fuck it, we're going back to Tucson

[Longhorned]

Condensed summary:

1. Miller has gotten so close to a Final Four several times, it's amazing he hasn't broken through.

2. Miller's teams have suffered disappointing losses in the tourney, which disappointed fans' expectations (and elated casual fans who like to see a lesser team win).

3. Through spring 2018, Miller had a spectacular W-L record and several conference championships.

4. Miller's gutted squad this last season performed like a gutted squad.

Of the above, it appears that the second half of #1, and all of #2 stands out to many fans. Even though #2 applies to every great coach in America, past and present. The entire fact of #1 makes it hard to not see Miller's potential. Taken all together, #1-4 = a coach that, if he leaves Arizona, we're going to have to watch making Final Fours and winning National Championships with a different program.

To me, that would suck.

[RawleArenas]

Yes. ^^^^This^^^^

[U.P. Zona Fan]

I agree with Jackie longhorn, and I will add if we can him, he deserves to go to a final four while we are still paying his buyout. Rick Barnes. All I'm gonna say. I just hope we aren't on the bubble while we are paying two coaches and the one on the other team gets a one seed.

[legallykenny]

Yes, we must demand Final Fours or National Championships... or else there MUST be consequences. After all, Tucson, AZ will ALWAYS recruit itself because it is the juggernaut that Lute built. I mean... let's ignore that (after this incoming class) there will almost assuredly never again be a HS recruit who was even alive the last time we went to a Final 4. Or any that could make a shot on a regulation-sized basket the last time Lute coached. It does not matter... the ARIZONA BRAND SELLS ITSELF.

UCLA enjoyed a far more dominant position in West Coast basketball than we ever approached. And Tarkanian-era UNLV, aside from being in a non-power conference (which the PAC has not really been in a LONG time), had almost EXACTLY the same pedigree (accomplishment wise) as Arizona enjoyed under Lute. 1 Natty & 4 Final 4's.

I am giving a complete pass on (i.e., ignoring) the past ~15 months... under the assumption that Miller is not found to have been involved in any major NCAA violations. He is guilty of some questionable personnel decisions regarding his staff, which is a legitimate concern and something Miller needs to avoid moving forward.

Those of you who keep saying that anything short of a Final 4 is unacceptable sounds ALMOST as ridiculous as ASU fans who think the Rose Bowl should be the expectation in Football for their program (they have been to 2, you know). It's been 18 years since our last one, for anyone who is counting.

If we can find a coach who is more likely to get us there than Miller, then let's have at it. But the risk/reward of making a change to elevate the program from the perennial performance he has delivered (sans the past 15 months) tilts SIGNIFICANTLY to the downside. Acting like repeated conference championships and E8/S16 appearances is so obtuse I can't believe how many people seem to accept it as gospel truth.

How much do you think UCLA or UNLV fans would like to have Sean Miller? Or a coach that provides the same total package? Those of you who think kids come to play for Arizona first and Miller second really need to take our NCAA history (and how far removed we are from it) in context of the age of current players. And then ask yourself... if you had zero ties to any of the schools in the discussion, and were an 18 year old kid who wanted to score on and off the court - what sounds more appealing? Moving to Westwood, Las Vegas, or Tucson? Hmmm....

Ned Wulk, late in his career, was BY FAR the best recruiter and coach ASU has ever sniffed. But he just wasn't good enough after 1 mediocre season, ASU's third in the PAC. (They finished runner-up in the first 2).

Most people mess up something good by looking for something better to end up with something worse, and the thing that history teaches us is that history does not teach us anything. But let's set all that aside... and go with the "PAc 12 Championship and Final 4 in 2020 or Miller is Out".

Sounds like a fail-proof plan.

This IMO is the feeling of most educated fans. It's the stupid fans who are ready to fire a coach because he loses in the Elite 8. I'll be happy as hell if we kick ass and win the Pac regular season title next year. It means a lot to me. Keep in mind, ASU has NEVER won the Pac title. NEVER EVER!!! And we act like it's no big deal. It is a big deal.

If we fall short of the final four and reach the Sweet 16 or Elite 8 it will be disappointing of course because we want more. But that doesn't mean we don't have a great coach and program. I'd much rather be Arizona right now, climbing back up that mountain than UCONN, which caught lightning in a bottle TWICE to win National titles. It goes to show just how fickle and unpredictable the NCAA tournament can be. A measure of a program's success isn't only the tournament. It's the conference titles, the overall record as even conference tournament success that should also be considered.

We didn't fire Sean because he loses in the Elite 8. We've kept his around for 5 years since his last Elite 8 loss and paid him more than ten million dollar since then after all.

We should fire him for losing in the first round and for missing the tournament.

Harvey's post went off the rails when he suggested UCLA would actually hire Sean right now.

[TheGreatCatsby]

Depends how you look at the big picture.

On April 6, 2009, as an Arizona basketball fan would you have been excited if you knew the next 10 years of results? Zero final fours, a handful of PAC12 titles, 3 Elite Eights, a few really bad NCAA early round exists to substandard teams, and 1 super dominant team for 1 year in that span. Embroiled in recruiting scandal the past 2 years that cost us an entire season, potential future NCAA sanctions, and school reputation tarnishment. Regularly boring style of play. Miller as a coach and leader a nice guy but not much in terms of outward personality, keeps to himself. Not really sure that's really what any of us really dreamed of or signed up for, but not a complete loss either.

OR you can take the view Miller has produced alot of regular season wins, we coulda been alot worse over the past decade, we've stayed marginally relevant, etc. That seems more the view of the Loyalists on here.

I lean more towards the first view, and the regularly boring style of play on offense and defense is wearing on me. We do literally nothing different from game to game. We're one of the easiest teams in the country to scout against. Maybe once a season in a lost game Miller will play 5 minutes of zone and call it a failure so he doesn't have to attempt to play it again. Maybe next year with better players we'll be better to watch.

[zonagrad]

Depends how you look at the big picture.

On April 6, 2009, as an Arizona basketball fan would you have been excited if you knew the next 10 years of results? Zero final fours, a handful of PAC12 titles, 3 Elite Eights, a few really bad NCAA early round exists to substandard teams, and 1 super dominant team for 1 year in that span. Embroiled in recruiting scandal the past 2 years that cost us an entire season, potential future NCAA sanctions, and school reputation tarnishment. Regularly boring style of play. Miller as a coach and leader a nice guy but not much in terms of outward personality, keeps to himself. Not really sure that's really what any of us really dreamed of or signed up for, but not a complete loss either.

OR you can take the view Miller has produced alot of regular season wins, we coulda been alot worse over the past decade, we've stayed marginally relevant, etc. That seems more the view of the Loyalists on here.

I lean more towards the first view, and the regularly boring style of play on offense and defense is wearing on me. We do literally nothing different from game to game. We're one of the easiest teams in the country to scout against. Maybe once a season in a lost game Miller will play 5 minutes of zone and call it a failure so he doesn't have to attempt to play it again. Maybe next year with better players we'll be better to watch.

It's a boring style to watch when you don't have a quality point guard (the last several years) and recruits who simply aren't that skilled. We weren't a boring team in '14 & '15 even though we didn't have great shooters. This incoming class will surely have some shortcomings but it's clear we'll have guards who can handle the ball (Nico, Green & Williams), athleticism (Nico, Green, & Armstrong) and some size Nnaji, Jeter (maybe) and Ira Lee. So the style of basketball will be much more entertaining when you have players who can actually play the game.

[phenom5]

Depends how you look at the big picture.

On April 6, 2009, as an Arizona basketball fan would you have been excited if you knew the next 10 years of results? Zero final fours, a handful of PAC12 titles, 3 Elite Eights, a few really bad NCAA early round exists to substandard teams, and 1 super dominant team for 1 year in that span. Embroiled in recruiting scandal the past 2 years that cost us an entire season, potential future NCAA sanctions, and school reputation tarnishment. Regularly boring style of play. Miller as a coach and leader a nice guy but not much in terms of outward personality, keeps to himself. Not really sure that's really what any of us really dreamed of or signed up for, but not a complete loss either.

OR you can take the view Miller has produced alot of regular season wins, we coulda been alot worse over the past decade, we've stayed marginally relevant, etc. That seems more the view of the Loyalists on here.

I lean more towards the first view, and the regularly boring style of play on offense and defense is wearing on me. We do literally nothing different from game to game. We're one of the easiest teams in the country to scout against. Maybe once a season in a lost game Miller will play 5 minutes of zone and call it a failure so he doesn't have to attempt to play it again. Maybe next year with better players we'll be better to watch.

I fall more inline with this line of thinking.

That said, I'm not sure now is the time to make a move. I mean...right now is definitely not the time unless things really go sideways. Not sure if after next will be either. A lot of unknowns. Not sure if I am on board with the idea that it's next year or bust. Expect the team to be much better, but don't think our #1 class equates to a Dook-level class of this year. I love Nico's game, and JG is a huge upgrade on the wing, but neither strike me as a Ayton/ Zion-esque game changing prospect.

It feels like we missed out on 2 classes. Between all 5 guys leaving, the misses ouside of Ayton and Lee(obviously to a much lesser extent), and the patchwork class that CSM brought in this year. I don't know if you can hang Miller's future on a E8/ F4 run or bust ultimatum.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Depends how you look at the big picture.

On April 6, 2009, as an Arizona basketball fan would you have been excited if you knew the next 10 years of results? Zero final fours, a handful of PAC12 titles, 3 Elite Eights, a few really bad NCAA early round exists to substandard teams, and 1 super dominant team for 1 year in that span. Embroiled in recruiting scandal the past 2 years that cost us an entire season, potential future NCAA sanctions, and school reputation tarnishment. Regularly boring style of play. Miller as a coach and leader a nice guy but not much in terms of outward personality, keeps to himself. Not really sure that's really what any of us really dreamed of or signed up for, but not a complete loss either.

OR you can take the view Miller has produced alot of regular season wins, we coulda been alot worse over the past decade, we've stayed marginally relevant, etc. That seems more the view of the Loyalists on here.

I lean more towards the first view, and the regularly boring style of play on offense and defense is wearing on me. We do literally nothing different from game to game. We're one of the easiest teams in the country to scout against. Maybe once a season in a lost game Miller will play 5 minutes of zone and call it a failure so he doesn't have to attempt to play it again. Maybe next year with better players we'll be better to watch.

On April 6, 2009, I'd have been excited to know we'd make more than 50% of NCAA tournaments in the coming decade. 2009 me would have been insanely happy at our results and thought anyone saying that coach should go is a nutball or a Sun Devil.

We were returning Nic Wise, Kyle Fogg, Brendon Lavender, Jamelle Horne, Garland Judkins and Alex Jacobsen and had literally no recruiting class.

It's a f***ing miracle that we became relevant again in as short a period of time as we did. Then, the fanbase got spoiled and we went from Tim Floyd as our coach to looking down our nose at Elite Eights.

The FBI investigation is unprecedented and I'd treat it as such. If Miller's involved in that sufficiently, I think we all understand that alone ends his time here. That has not occurred yet. Until and unless it does, I tend towards a spoiled, entitled fan base that's close to condemning us to Indiana territory forever, or worse.

[RawleArenas]

I detest the idea of bringing in Walton. Granted he has experience coaching, but the Arizona job is much bigger than wins and losses. The grind is challenging, even if you have a successful year and make the tournament, you're considered an underachiever. Not to mention the fans and media breathing down your neck and comparing you to Lute at every turn.

Also, I don't want a Kevin Ollie situation. If things go sour, and they can, I don't want to permanently damage the relationship with Walton. Especially if he makes a deep run and struggles after that.

Style of play is a first world, blue blood program. Most schools are just happy to have a successful program.

[prh]

The style of play complaints are pretty weak, that same style was just fine when we were winning and top 10 KenPom

[Longhorned]

The style of play complaints are pretty weak, that same style was just fine when we were winning and top 10 KenPom

It's as important as hairstyle, though. We all knew what was behind Steve Alford's recruiting success, and how its resulting style of play parted Arizona's defense down the middle before Miller coiffed him back with the last-second timeout in Vegas.

Everyone asks why TJ McConnell went buzzed until he left for the NBA. Look no further than Mr. Supercut himself, grunting and coughing in the cheap suit along the sidelines.

Do you like chimichangas? I mean, do you really like chimichangas?

[Azgirl]

I will say this....one of my fears "could" materialize. I wondered that if Alabama would let Avery go, would Byrnes go after Miller. Now hear me out, obviously Byrnes would have to wait to see what happens with the FBI thing (which I truly believe will end up being nada) and make an offer to Miller. Byrnes very much appreciated Miller and Miller respected and enjoyed working under Byrnes more so than this Administration. He trusted Byrnes. This way he makes a clean break and from everyone's wild guess all is happy.

[zonagrad]

I will say this....one of my fears "could" materialize. I wondered that if Alabama would let Avery go, would Byrnes go after Miller. Now hear me out, obviously Byrnes would have to wait to see what happens with the FBI thing (which I truly believe will end up being nada) and make an offer to Miller. Byrnes very much appreciated Miller and Miller respected and enjoyed working under Byrnes more so than this Administration. He trusted Byrnes. This way he makes a clean break and from everyone's wild guess all is happy.

Alabama is a football school.

Miller understands how special it is to coach at Arizona. Even in the worst year, Arizona easily leads the Pac in attendance. If Miller goes to Alabama, he faces a tougher struggle on the recruiting trail. His path to success will get harder, not easier. And Greg Byrne isn't all that.

[Merkin]

Sean Miller has never been second fiddle. Not sure his ego could take that.

[Longhorned]

Amy: Baby, you sure do take me places.

Sean: You said you missed grass. Be careful what you wish for.

[MrMeow]

Yes, we must demand Final Fours or National Championships... or else there MUST be consequences. After all, Tucson, AZ will ALWAYS recruit itself because it is the juggernaut that Lute built. I mean... let's ignore that (after this incoming class) there will almost assuredly never again be a HS recruit who was even alive the last time we went to a Final 4. Or any that could make a shot on a regulation-sized basket the last time Lute coached. It does not matter... the ARIZONA BRAND SELLS ITSELF.

UCLA enjoyed a far more dominant position in West Coast basketball than we ever approached. And Tarkanian-era UNLV, aside from being in a non-power conference (which the PAC has not really been in a LONG time), had almost EXACTLY the same pedigree (accomplishment wise) as Arizona enjoyed under Lute. 1 Natty & 4 Final 4's.

I am giving a complete pass on (i.e., ignoring) the past ~15 months... under the assumption that Miller is not found to have been involved in any major NCAA violations. He is guilty of some questionable personnel decisions regarding his staff, which is a legitimate concern and something Miller needs to avoid moving forward.

Those of you who keep saying that anything short of a Final 4 is unacceptable sounds ALMOST as ridiculous as ASU fans who think the Rose Bowl should be the expectation in Football for their program (they have been to 2, you know). It's been 18 years since our last one, for anyone who is counting.

If we can find a coach who is more likely to get us there than Miller, then let's have at it. But the risk/reward of making a change to elevate the program from the perennial performance he has delivered (sans the past 15 months) tilts SIGNIFICANTLY to the downside. Acting like repeated conference championships and E8/S16 appearances is so obtuse I can't believe how many people seem to accept it as gospel truth.

How much do you think UCLA or UNLV fans would like to have Sean Miller? Or a coach that provides the same total package? Those of you who think kids come to play for Arizona first and Miller second really need to take our NCAA history (and how far removed we are from it) in context of the age of current players. And then ask yourself... if you had zero ties to any of the schools in the discussion, and were an 18 year old kid who wanted to score on and off the court - what sounds more appealing? Moving to Westwood, Las Vegas, or Tucson? Hmmm....

Ned Wulk, late in his career, was BY FAR the best recruiter and coach ASU has ever sniffed. But he just wasn't good enough after 1 mediocre season, ASU's third in the PAC. (They finished runner-up in the first 2).

Most people mess up something good by looking for something better to end up with something worse, and the thing that history teaches us is that history does not teach us anything. But let's set all that aside... and go with the "PAc 12 Championship and Final 4 in 2020 or Miller is Out".

Sounds like a fail-proof plan.

Spoken by someone whose grasp obviously far exceeds his reach. Total horseshit.

[TheGreatCatsby]

Unless the U of A gets some new facts so that it can file Miller for cause and avoid paying a buyout, both sides are kind of stuck with each other right now. Miller is under contract, and the U of A isn't in a position right now to buy him out. He also has a big class coming in, so it's not necessarily in the university's best interest to kill off its golden goose of a program so that we don't fall off a cliff. They need the money coming in to fund the other sports and everybody's salaries there. If after next year though Miller puts up another crappy season, or we make the tourney and another early tourney exit, think we'll be having a slightly different conversation then we are this offseason. The haters will start to outnumber the Loyalists. We as UA fans are stuck right now, just like the university is, regardless of whether you like Miller or don't like Miller. Absent Mark Schlabach producing video for the 10 pm Sportscenter of Miller drowning puppies or Dawkins producing photos at trial putting dollar bills in Sean Miller's suit pocket, Miller isn't getting fired and UA isn't in a position to fire him anyway.

[Beachcat97]

If after next year though Miller puts up another crappy season, or we make the tourney and another early tourney exit, think we'll be having a slightly different conversation then we are this offseason. The haters will start to outnumber the Loyalists..

I agree...to an extent.

It would have to be extraordinarily crappy, like we miss the tourney.

Having said that...there's no way we're missing the tourney next season.

[Longhorned]

If after next year though Miller puts up another crappy season, or we make the tourney and another early tourney exit, think we'll be having a slightly different conversation then we are this offseason. The haters will start to outnumber the Loyalists.

Can I sign up for being neither a hater nor a Loyalist?

I'm with the Absurdists who realize that the tourney is purely cruel, unpredictable chaos, and that it's merely the human condition that's condemned to seek some sense of control, order, and meaning in the tourney and its results. And that to fire a coach for unexpected tourney losses mixed in with so many near-misses at a Final Four is only going to further protract our wait for that eventual Final Four. Especially when you look at the earlier track record of coaches who've done it.

[97cats]

i love LH - fucking great

i will say, it hasn’t been the last 15months for me, that would be my only differing opinion for the most part.

the downward tick started against Wichita State for me and was pretty much played out by the PG in kind the last four years, too much of the bad repeating itself.

anyway, all the other stuff is incapsulated nicely by a number of posters in this thread - you don’t fire him just to fire him, too much good for too long, his record at AZ is mostly ELITE impressive.

something else to consider, there is more of a wavering sentiment then ever, it’s human nature given what’s transpired, I get it.

what can’t be argued is the importance of next year for Sean Miller at Arizona and what that looks like at the end of the season, but the slack is beginning to tighten, has been for a while now.

Nico Mannion to the rescue!!!

winning would solve pretty much everything, ive always said that...if Miller had an AZ FF in his pocket much of this would be muted.

[Beachcat97]

...if Miller had an AZ FF in his pocket much of this would be muted.

Pretty much.

[jsbowl16]

Miller grew up in Big East territory and played in the Big East. Pittsburgh area is hard nosed defense first. We will never see his teams scoring 100 and resting on defense. It may be "boring" to some people but there are two ends of the floor for teams to play which is why I dont watch the NBA. We love TJ for his hard nosed Pittsburgh attitude but shame our head coach for the same attitude. Some people like to watch teams outscore each other like its the nba all star game and some think that if we stop them one more time than they stop us we are going to win games. I like the latter especially since defense travels.

[ByJoveByJingle]

I like the latter especially since defense travels.

Unfortunately it flew south one winter and never came back. We haven’t been good defensively in awhile. That’s where I’d like to see improvement next year. Let’s hope one of the newcomers has Rondae-like skills on the defensive end.

[jsbowl16]

I like the latter especially since defense travels.

Unfortunately it flew south one winter and never came back. We haven’t been good defensively in awhile. That’s where I’d like to see improvement next year. Let’s hope one of the newcomers has Rondae-like skills on the defensive end.

Agreed. We were 15 in adjO last year somehow without a PG and 83 in adjD. We looked like it against Buffalo last year when they took us behind the woodshed.

Just a side note that in the last 17 years no team has won the NCAA tournament with an adjD lower than 20. You can't say the same thing for adjO.

[zonagrad]

Miller grew up in Big East territory and played in the Big East. Pittsburgh area is hard nosed defense first. We will never see his teams scoring 100 and resting on defense. It may be "boring" to some people but there are two ends of the floor for teams to play which is why I dont watch the NBA. We love TJ for his hard nosed Pittsburgh attitude but shame our head coach for the same attitude. Some people like to watch teams outscore each other like its the nba all star game and some think that if we stop them one more time than they stop us we are going to win games. I like the latter especially since defense travels.

This is nonsense. You need to be efficient defensively and offensively. Period. Because if you don't respect defense and want to just rely on offense, eventually you're going to run into a team that likes to slow it down and cut possessions and grind. And if you have an unfortunate cold shooting night (which can certainly happen in the NCAA tourney) you're fucked. If you don't prioritize defense, you allow less talented teams to dictate tempo. If you have defense, you can generate offense from turnovers, defensive rebounding and transition offense. Arizona scored a shit ton of points in 2014 because they defended like crazy and pushed tempo. That was not a team of elite offense players after Brandon Ashley went down.

[Spaceman Spiff]

...if Miller had an AZ FF in his pocket much of this would be muted.

Pretty much.

This is one of the reasons I think some of the criticism of Miller winds up as pure bad luck outside his control.

If Ashley's foot isn't broken, we beat Wisconsin in 13-14 and he has that Final Four. If Wisconsin doesn't make basically every shot they take in the second half, including running threes, we beat them in 14-15 and Miller has a Final Four.

Both losses were purely luck based. This also leaves out Horne's three vs UConn, which would have also solved the issue. I return to the idea that Miller's no better or worse a coach if we get lucky in one of those scenarios instead of unlucky, yet here we are, talking about how that's the thing to define his future here.

[Longhorned]

...if Miller had an AZ FF in his pocket much of this would be muted.

Pretty much.

This is one of the reasons I think some of the criticism of Miller winds up as pure bad luck outside his control.

If Ashley's foot isn't broken, we beat Wisconsin in 13-14 and he has that Final Four. If Wisconsin doesn't make basically every shot they take in the second half, including running threes, we beat them in 14-15 and Miller has a Final Four.

Both losses were purely luck based. This also leaves out Horne's three vs UConn, which would have also solved the issue. I return to the idea that Miller's no better or worse a coach if we get lucky in one of those scenarios instead of unlucky, yet here we are, talking about how that's the thing to define his future here.

Yes. That’s not Loyalist. It’s a rational response to the nature of Madness.

[Longhorned]

I’m not saying the Final Four criterion for judging or firing a head coach is wrong. I’m saying it’s societal. Unlike any other sporting event, March Madness transcends the sport itself. The vast majority of people who care about it have no real interest in college basketball, and haven’t watched a game all season. It’s our society’s Dionysiac ritualized representation of divine victory and loss in bloody war. The Final Four is about the magical survivors of Fate. Their accomplishment is the only real measure of success.

I fully understand why that societal value is important to the fans of the sport who are season ticket holders or watch all their team’s games. But it’s all Madness, and it’s relationship to the sport isn’t straightforward.

[dovecanyoncat]

Miller grew up in Big East territory and played in the Big East. Pittsburgh area is hard nosed defense first. We will never see his teams scoring 100 and resting on defense. It may be "boring" to some people but there are two ends of the floor for teams to play which is why I dont watch the NBA. We love TJ for his hard nosed Pittsburgh attitude but shame our head coach for the same attitude. Some people like to watch teams outscore each other like its the nba all star game and some think that if we stop them one more time than they stop us we are going to win games. I like the latter especially since defense travels.

This is nonsense. You need to be efficient defensively and offensively. Period. Because if you don't respect defense and want to just rely on offense, eventually you're going to run into a team that likes to slow it down and cut possessions and grind. And if you have an unfortunate cold shooting night (which can certainly happen in the NCAA tourney) you're fucked. If you don't prioritize defense, you allow less talented teams to dictate tempo. If you have defense, you can generate offense from turnovers, defensive rebounding and transition offense. Arizona scored a shit ton of points in 2014 because they defended like crazy and pushed tempo. That was not a team of elite offense players after Brandon Ashley went down.

Does anyone have vids or data of Nico on D?

[Spaceman Spiff]

I’m not saying the Final Four criterion for judging or firing a head coach is wrong. I’m saying it’s societal. Unlike any other sporting event, March Madness transcends the sport itself. The vast majority of people who care about it have no real interest in college basketball, and haven’t watched a game all season. It’s our society’s Dionysiac ritualized representation of divine victory and loss in bloody war. The Final Four is about the magical survivors of Fate. Their accomplishment is the only real measure of success.

I fully understand why that societal value is important to the fans of the sport who are season ticket holders or watch all their team’s games. But it’s all Madness, and it’s relationship to the sport isn’t straightforward.

There are markers of the quality of a program and coach. Then, there are moments of emotional resonance for fans.

Individual Final Fours and nattys are the biggest discrepancy between health marker and emotional resonance. A run like Ollie and UConn can happen to a program that isn't strong. It will simultaneously be a very emotional moment for the fans.

NCAA basketball is a perfect storm of a sport where a few influential players can make a huge difference, individual hot streaks heavily influence games and the overall format is one loss and done. Kemba Walker's transformation in 2011 was a good 50% of UConn's championship.

The true issue is acting like we have a choice. Exchanging Sean Miller for another coach is no guarantee we get NCAA luck, but it directly changes our overall program health. I remember a lot of people asking if you'd rather be Arizona or UConn. The real fallacy is believing you can choose between the two.

[rgdeuce]

I like the latter especially since defense travels.

Unfortunately it flew south one winter and never came back. We haven’t been good defensively in awhile. That’s where I’d like to see improvement next year. Let’s hope one of the newcomers has Rondae-like skills on the defensive end.

Agreed. We were 15 in adjO last year somehow without a PG and 83 in adjD. We looked like it against Buffalo last year when they took us behind the woodshed.

Just a side note that in the last 17 years no team has won the NCAA tournament with an adjD lower than 20. You can't say the same thing for adjO.

We were 15th because we had one of the most dominant big men in the last 30 years, arguably the most efficient and skilled wing in the country, an excellent low post scorer in Dusan, and Rawle as a third or fourth option. We can put all the blame on PJC that we want - that team still underperformed offensively.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I like the latter especially since defense travels.

Unfortunately it flew south one winter and never came back. We haven’t been good defensively in awhile. That’s where I’d like to see improvement next year. Let’s hope one of the newcomers has Rondae-like skills on the defensive end.

Agreed. We were 15 in adjO last year somehow without a PG and 83 in adjD. We looked like it against Buffalo last year when they took us behind the woodshed.

Just a side note that in the last 17 years no team has won the NCAA tournament with an adjD lower than 20. You can't say the same thing for adjO.

We were 15th because we had one of the most dominant big men in the last 30 years, arguably the most efficient and skilled wing in the country, an excellent low post scorer in Dusan, and Rawle as a third or fourth option. We can put all the blame on PJC that we want - that team still underperformed offensively.

Part of that was poor D. It's always harder to be efficient when the other team is scoring a lot. You get less in transition and face a set D more often.

We also settled for 3's too much. We weren't bad at shooting them, but the foundation of a really efficient offense is always a higher number of point blank looks and free throws.

[Beachcat97]

We also settled for 3's too much. We weren't bad at shooting them, but the foundation of a really efficient offense is always a higher number of point blank looks and free throws.

We didn't have a single player at 40% from 3 (Luther was highest at 37.5, unless you count DD who was at 45), so I'm not sure you're right, Spiff.

In 2017-18, Ristic and PJC were over 40% from 3.

In 2016-17, Ristic, Lauri, Kadeem and PJC were over 40%.

One could argue that a team needs at least a couple high-minute, 40% 3-point shooters to fare well over the course of a season. The more, the better of course.

3 point shooting is not the end all be all. You're right that point blank looks and FTs end up being more vital.

Overall, I think next year's roster looks to be better across the board offensively.

[Spaceman Spiff]

We also settled for 3's too much. We weren't bad at shooting them, but the foundation of a really efficient offense is always a higher number of point blank looks and free throws.

We didn't have a single player at 40% from 3 (Luther was highest at 37.5, unless you count DD who was at 45), so I'm not sure you're right, Spiff.

In 2017-18, Ristic and PJC were over 40% from 3.

In 2016-17, Ristic, Lauri, Kadeem and PJC were over 40%.

One could argue that a team needs at least a couple high-minute, 40% 3-point shooters to fare well over the course of a season. The more, the better of course.

3 point shooting is not the end all be all. You're right that point blank looks and FTs end up being more vital.

Overall, I think next year's roster looks to be better across the board offensively.

RG was talking 17-18.

[Beachcat97]

We also settled for 3's too much. We weren't bad at shooting them, but the foundation of a really efficient offense is always a higher number of point blank looks and free throws.

We didn't have a single player at 40% from 3 (Luther was highest at 37.5, unless you count DD who was at 45), so I'm not sure you're right, Spiff.

In 2017-18, Ristic and PJC were over 40% from 3.

In 2016-17, Ristic, Lauri, Kadeem and PJC were over 40%.

One could argue that a team needs at least a couple high-minute, 40% 3-point shooters to fare well over the course of a season. The more, the better of course.

3 point shooting is not the end all be all. You're right that point blank looks and FTs end up being more vital.

Overall, I think next year's roster looks to be better across the board offensively.

RG was talking 17-18.

My bad. Note to self: read further back in the thread before posting!

[rgdeuce]

I like the latter especially since defense travels.

Unfortunately it flew south one winter and never came back. We haven’t been good defensively in awhile. That’s where I’d like to see improvement next year. Let’s hope one of the newcomers has Rondae-like skills on the defensive end.

Agreed. We were 15 in adjO last year somehow without a PG and 83 in adjD. We looked like it against Buffalo last year when they took us behind the woodshed.

Just a side note that in the last 17 years no team has won the NCAA tournament with an adjD lower than 20. You can't say the same thing for adjO.

We were 15th because we had one of the most dominant big men in the last 30 years, arguably the most efficient and skilled wing in the country, an excellent low post scorer in Dusan, and Rawle as a third or fourth option. We can put all the blame on PJC that we want - that team still underperformed offensively.

Part of that was poor D. It's always harder to be efficient when the other team is scoring a lot. You get less in transition and face a set D more often.

We also settled for 3's too much. We weren't bad at shooting them, but the foundation of a really efficient offense is always a higher number of point blank looks and free throws.

Good point on the D. Especially killer when you consider our inconsistent play against zone defenses.

Your second point was kinda what I was getting at. We settle, get lazy, get away from what works both in general and within an individual game, under-utilize mismatches and attacking weaknesses, etc. We could have gotten more out of Lauri and Ayton and I dont think Trier's numbers would have taken much of a hit.
And as some of that falls on Miller, I'm not gonna gonna applaud an adjO 15 (both Ayton/Lauri's seasons) season.

[Spaceman Spiff]

To not quote into oblivion, RG, I agree production, offensive and defensive is on Miller to some degree.

One of the underrated dynamics of the 16-17 and 17-18 seasons was who would take control, as well. Trier was always ready to get the ball and do his thing. Zo was as aggressive and dominant a figure as anyone on any college team.

Lauri and Ayton really weren't. Both had fantastic talent, but neither demanded the ball the way Zo did. So when we defaulted, we defaulted to Zo. Now, some of that is on a coach to recognize and try to counter. Some of it is just a player's makeup, too. To this day, Lauri is still just realizing how great he can be and learning how to demand the ball and be the scorer he can be. Ayton too, it's frustrating watching the Suns not forcefeed him as he scores a tremendously high percentage of his attempts.

PJC running things...well, he wasn't going to dictate that flow to Ayton or Lauri the way a more strong leader might have.

[rgdeuce]

I fully get the PJC thing. Thats why I said top 5 adjO instead of #1 or 2

[Chicat]

In case you were wondering why the Admin would be absolutely fucking brain dead to let Coach Miller go anywhere, I have two bits of evidence...

[Spaceman Spiff]

We doubled #2 in the conference.

[UAEebs86]

We doubled #2 in the conference.

Profit about equal to #2 through #11 combined.


And ASU in the red? LMFAO

[azcat49]

We doubled #2 in the conference.

Profit about equal to #2 through #11 combined.


And ASU in the red? LMFAO

Needed improvements to McKale North

[zonagrad]

In case you were wondering why the Admin would be absolutely fucking brain dead to let Coach Miller go anywhere, I have two bits of evidence...

Those are incredible numbers. The fact that Arizona's profits are greater everyone else's basketball revenue is stunning. The Pac 12 Tourney is a probably a financial loser this year because of Arizona being down. Larry Scott and the Pac 12 should be down on their knees praying for Arizona to kick ass next year.

[CatFanOneMil]

In case you were wondering why the Admin would be absolutely fucking brain dead to let Coach Miller go anywhere, I have two bits of evidence...

Well...this explains why Bobby Hurleys suits never fit...it still does not explain the temper tantrum chicken strut though...I heard he was the lowest paid coach in the conference...

I still don't see how UCLA manages a profit or a lot of teams...when you watch the games they have those stupid school color posters in the seats to hide the fact that the gym's are not even half full...

Other schools bitch about UA having a geriatric fan base but those old crankers fill up McKale...if games were always scheduled before the buffet at Golden Corral you'd never have a chance at seeing a game if you weren't a season ticket holder...

[midnightx]

One thing that doesn't help Miller: his brand of basketball is boring.

Well, some of it may be attributable to his offensive philosophy, but some of it has to be the fact that during his tenure because he has only had one decent point guard. One suspects next year's offense will not be limited.