Sean Miller

[dmjcat]

2 years ago I wanted Beard from TTech......I think he's locked in there now.

How about Greg Marshall from Wichita State?

[oggoazcats]

Floodgates——->open

Ok guys, we are going to need a SHITTON of excuses after that.

GO!

You can have your opinion, but you can't make up your own facts. Be careful, there are a lot of sharp guys on this forum that follow more than one team. Oregon STATE is stacked. Keep putting weak takes like that out there, and you're going to feel like JFK in Dealey Plaza.

[catgrad97]

Losing a six-point lead late at Oregon was not a "valiant effort"--it was a harbinger.

And after Choo's latest post, I take no pleasure in having been proved right. I am, conversely, the most apprehensive I have ever been for the future of Arizona basketball.

[CalStateTempe]

G we were all proved right, and those with half a brain knew it.

Put it didn’t stop one poster I particular from coming here and kicking the dog (us fans with eyes)

But then again I don’t coach youth basketball so what do I know?

[dmjcat]

Losing a six-point lead late at Oregon was not a "valiant effort"--it was a harbinger.

And after Choo's latest post, I take no pleasure in having been proved right. I am, conversely, the most apprehensive I have ever been for the future of Arizona basketball.

Apprehensive??? I would use the word terrified.

If the NCAA drops the hammer as I expect we will be wandering in the desert (literally) for several years. I am going to try to enjoy the wins we do have this season because we may not have too many in the coming years.

[TatetheGreat]

I'll reply to the previous posts when I have more time, but for now all I have to say is this has run its course, it's time to pull the plug on this relationship.

Only AFTER the NCAA hammer falls. If we part ways with Miller then maybe the NCAA will go easier on us.

Sooner the better. I wanted to move on two years ago. Now we're here with the same problems, and the FBI situation isn't even resolved.

[dmjcat]

I'll reply to the previous posts when I have more time, but for now all I have to say is this has run its course, it's time to pull the plug on this relationship.

Only AFTER the NCAA hammer falls. If we part ways with Miller then maybe the NCAA will go easier on us.

Sooner the better. I wanted to move on two years ago. Now we're here with the same problems, and the FBI situation isn't even resolved.

There were some on this board who proposed self sanctions and parting with Miller two years ago......but they were ridiculed.

[mofo]

Serious question. If you’re a booster and we end up a mediocre team at the end of the year, with a 1st or 2nd round exit in March, who do you pony up to replace- Sumlin or Miller? I’m assuming we can’t do both (if 1). Good times.

[catgrad97]

Losing a six-point lead late at Oregon was not a "valiant effort"--it was a harbinger.

And after Choo's latest post, I take no pleasure in having been proved right. I am, conversely, the most apprehensive I have ever been for the future of Arizona basketball.

Apprehensive??? I would use the word terrified.

If the NCAA drops the hammer as I expect we will be wandering in the desert (literally) for several years. I am going to try to enjoy the wins we do have this season because we may not have too many in the coming years.

"Terrified" was actually my first choice, and it probably would've been employed had I Choo's insight, or any insight on what the NCAA was going to do.

As it is, we are now embroiled in possibly a no-win situation that is definitely bigger than anyone in our overmatched AD has the capacity to deal with.

I just want to be able to come in here and be critical after a loss without being labeled as "delusional." As a fanbase, I think we need to be able to exhibit that capacity if this program is going to move in the direction we want it to.

[Beachcat97]

I really couldn’t give a flying fuck about football, so I’m fine with whoever ya’ll wanna let coach that team.

Hoops is our marquee event. It’s what put AZ on the map athletically. And softball. So whatever happens this offseason, we sure as hell had better be working apace to turn this thing around.

[SabinoDrifter]

Serious question. As a booster, if we end up a mediocre team at the end of the year, and 1st or 2nd round exit in March, who do you pony to replace- Sumlin or Miller? I’m assuming we can’t do both (if 1). Good times.

Basketball. Football is a wasteland when a Pac 12 South team hasn’t reached the CFP since inception and the league has won one game in the playoff (the very first one).

28-20 since the Buffalo loss..

[Captain Obvious]

Man....that was really hard to watch. I try very hard to not be too reactionary as a fan but idk this performance just really got to me.

Might be time to fire up the hot board? Ugh

But we'll be fine once the adjusted KenPom metric projects us as a potential 4 seed. Rest assured. DWWD

[catgrad97]

G we were all proved right, and those with half a brain knew it.

Put it didn’t stop one poster I particular from coming here and kicking the dog (us fans with eyes)

But then again I don’t coach youth basketball so what do I know?

I interned for the Daily Star in college, and ODogg's response to the Oregon loss Thursday was too close to the stuff we would read from our competition at the Tucson Weekly.

And Tom Danehy was always too busy coaching local hoops himself to ever apologize for the shoot-from-the-hip nonsense he'd too often throw around.

Next year may be the worst loss our AD has ever operated at. Too many coaches are just locked into too many long-term contracts.

[Olsondogg]

Lmao.

Cancel the season and fire the coach, just so you guys feel better in January.

This fan base is something else.

[ChooChooCat]

Lol firing Miller now would not make the NCAA "go easy on us," especially when he's not the coach in question. Louisville will get hit harder than us and they still hired Chris Mack.

[PHXCATS]

All four final four teams last year had multiple double digit losses. So one bad game doesnt mean anything

[PHXCATS]

It is amazing how some people pretend to know so.much but show no actual understanding of what is going on with the ncaa investigation

[TatetheGreat]

Lol firing Miller now would not make the NCAA "go easy on us," especially when he's not the coach in question. Louisville will get hit harder than us and they still hired Chris Mack.

Who said it would? Regardless of NCAA penalty, I don't see a reason to wait. We could swap classes with UNC or Kentucky and have the same problems with coaching.

[catgrad97]

All four final four teams last year had multiple double digit losses. So one bad game doesnt mean anything

This was a road sweep we just went through. They both are Ls in the record books, whether it was "one bad game" or two.

And this team doesn't have the resume or the mettle to sniff a Final Four. Believe me, I would love to be proven wrong about that.

[TatetheGreat]

All four final four teams last year had multiple double digit losses. So one bad game doesnt mean anything

This was a road sweep we just went through. They both are Ls in the record books, whether it was "one bad game" or two.

And this team doesn't have the resume or the mettle to sniff a Final Four. Believe me, I would love to be proven wrong about that.

This was an embarrassing loss. You’re in deep shit when Oregon State fans are taunting you.

[RiseAndFire]

The time to fire Miller was fall 2017 when the school was handed an opportunity on a silver platter by the FBI and they made the insane (and immoral) choice to support a known cheater.

What I've been saying since 2016 is still true http://www.beardownwildcats.com/viewtop ... 61#p181561 he will never win a championship or get to a FF at Arizona (or anywhere else). He has consistently underachieved with the talent he (and book) "magically" recruited for 10 years now and will continue to do so because of DWWD

I accepted this reality and achieved the zen of rock bottom expectations back then! Its a relief to know in advance each year the team will probably look awesome on paper and against most cupcakes but then self-destruct as the season wears on, culminating in a whimpering postseason exit. I highly recommend this approach for your personal wellness!

[TatetheGreat]

The time to fire Miller was fall 2017 when the school was handed an opportunity on a silver platter by the FBI and they made the insane (and immoral) choice to support a known cheater.

What I've been saying since 2016 is still true http://www.beardownwildcats.com/viewtop ... 61#p181561 he will never win a championship or get to a FF at Arizona (or anywhere else). He has consistently underachieved with the talent he (and book) "magically" recruited for 10 years now and will continue to do so because of DWWD

I accepted this reality and achieved the zen of rock bottom expectations back then! Its a relief to know in advance each year the team will probably look awesome on paper and against most cupcakes but then self-destruct as the season wears on, culminating in a whimpering postseason exit. I highly recommend this approach for your personal wellness!

Yes, instead the administration gave Miller a vote of confidence and the fan base rallied behind him. All for a mid-major coach with no sign of improvement. Had we fired him then (with cause as far as the NCAA is concerned), we’d have had a stopgap coach in Romar to finish out the season and could have begun the coaching search in earnest. It’s amazing that some here still need convincing.

[PennZona20]

I think a lot of you guys are overreacting. However, I’m with the majority that we need to at least consider a plan B pending how this season ends (and it’s not like we would lose a killer class for once either).

If the season does not turn around, i hope even the pro-Miller boosters see the writing on the wall. This is still a top 10 job, the sanctions won’t be that bad considering the “evidence” , and we can go get a great coach. Arizona recruits itself. Maybe miller pushed top 10 classes to top 5 w his relentless work on the trail , but I’ll take top 10 classes w better gameday coaching and results ala Villanova every day.

I like Miller, realize he got completely screwed by false info from the mothership , and still think if he doesn’t get out of the first weekend of the tourney and finishes 3rd or worse in the PAC it’s time to go a different direction. Miller is a solid coach but things don’t always work out. Such is life.

I will say the one saving grace is look around the landscape ...... college hoops is WIDE THE FUCK OPEN THIS YEAR and March is gonna be wild. And we do have NBA talent on our roster. If Miller can keep the kids engaged and believing and turn this thing around and make a run in March , because somebody is going to have to, then i will change my stance obviously.

Not seeing it right now but we do have another 20 games or so left so let it play out. I just hope the important boosters are looking into some contingency plans right now because i have more faith in them than the actual leadership and i know most of them are very pro-Miller.

[Beachcat97]

If we’re being honest, doesn’t it just feel like it’s been a long time since Miller got through a season with his team clearly improving from week to week, month to month? Isn’t that what good coaches are able to achieve?

[Merkin]

Pretty brutal comments on Twitter pretty much unanimous

[ChooChooCat]

Had we fired him then (with cause as far as the NCAA is concerned),

Oh is that what matters? As long as the NCAA deems it as cause then we don't have to pay a $10 million buyout? Good to know.

Btw the NCAA hasn't deemed shit yet.

[Merkin]

Had we fired him then (with cause as far as the NCAA is concerned),

Oh is that what matters? As long as the NCAA deems it as cause then we don't have to pay a $10 million buyout? Good to know.

Btw the NCAA hasn't deemed shit yet.

Isn't Miller's contract written so he will get paid even if fired with cause?

[pc in NM]

Had we fired him then (with cause as far as the NCAA is concerned),

Oh is that what matters? As long as the NCAA deems it as cause then we don't have to pay a $10 million buyout? Good to know.

Btw the NCAA hasn't deemed shit yet.

Isn't Miller's contract written so he will get paid even if fired with cause?

He would lose ~ $1mil in earned bonuses (approximately the cost of the independent legal counsel's investigations)....

[ChooChooCat]

Choo, you baited me into this discussion. It's all your fault.

It seems that the argument that you're making is that the only contribution that Miller brings to Arizona is recruiting, and that virtue in itself does all the work. And that there are a stable of coaches that could come in and duplicate or exceed what Miller has done here.

If we were talking about Pitino, Stevens, or Donovan, maybe. But there are a lot of problems with that assessment because the premise is faulty. Miller does more than just recruit at Arizona.

First of all I didn't bait you lol and second of all No, my argument was solely that Arizona recruits itself. Does the head coach matter? Sure, absolutely. You can't have a worthless schmuck in charge and to be clear while I think the road that Miller and Arizona are traveling on together should come to an end if the current course continues, I certainly wouldn't call Sean Miller a worthless schmuck. With that being said if a coach is even remotely decent at the recruiting aspect of the job he will ten fold be better at Arizona just like he would be at Kansas, Kentucky, etc.

And while Cronin, Self and Archie have found recruiting success at their respective upgrades, there certainly is an expiration date on the quality of recruits that a coach can bring based on his success on the court, regardless of the past or tradition. Florida is not even a basketball school and their cumulative postseason success eclipses ours (2 titles). And not one fan in Gainesville talks about how Florida (or UCONN for that matter) recruits itself. For lack of a better word, its an extremely lazy way of evaluating Miller's work.

That's a very good point. Inevitably if a coach doesn't perform at his school eventually his recruiting will suffer or at the very least he will have to adjust his recruiting strategy to be effective. Florida basketball is a bad example. Florida is a football school and always will be. Now football schools are in very good position to have good basketball programs as well due to the crazy influx of money they get from football (something Arizona doesn't have). Arizona is obviously a basketball school where the basketball players are the stars of the campus and community. At Florida the basketball players, even future pros, come second to the football players. UCONN does recruit itself honestly, but it just does it to a lesser extent. UCONN also has much more competition regionally than Arizona ever will.

Miller has a background as a high level player and has three gold medals as a player, assistant coach and head coach. In addition to doing less with more at Xavier which is why he chose to come here (albeit reluctantly). Those are extremely strong selling points that not even Lute can boast. That's the reason why despite our tradition, Miller has recruited better than Lute, especially considering the culture of college basketball today.

No prospective college basketball player remembers Sean Miller as a basketball player. If gold medals mattered then Lute Olson falls under the same metric where he actually won a FIBA Championship in 1986, so Lute can obviously boast plenty. Either way Miller's medals is absolutely not the reason why Miller has "recruited better than Lute." Your post was fine until that take man.

Also, saying that we're comparable to UCLA is just plain disingenuous. I'm born and raised in Southern California, and while Arizona has a solid tradition, the resources, location and reputation that UCLA has is off the charts. There's no comparison. Apples and oranges. They're unfortunately the victim of incompetent leadership. But when I think of UCLA I'm reminded of what Napoleon said, "Let China sleep, for when she wakes, she will shake the world." UCLA is a giant in hibernation.

Yep and guess what? UCLA is a job that not many big coaches want and Arizona is. So my point is far from disingenuous. We have a better program than UCLA. We have better fan support than UCLA. We make more money than UCLA. Arizona is a better job than UCLA. Let's also not forget that this UnderArmour deal isn't helping them really. It landed them their sole recruit (a 5* PG), but there's not many UA guys.

A book that I read about Wildcat sports said that after Lute retired, most former players that were interviewed felt that it would take 10 years before Arizona would reach the heights that it had in the past. Once the rebuild went quicker than expected, all those expectations went out the window and fans expected the very best, every year. Miller is largely responsible for that, because he is an excellent coach and program builder. But if you define yourself exclusively by Final Fours (which we continued to choke away even when Lute was here) you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.

I appreciate what Lute has done for Tucson and the University of Arizona. But nostalgia is a funny thing, it can be as much of a burden as it is a joy.

Derrick Williams and ironically enough Tim Floyd are largely responsible for our quick turn around. Either way Arizona under Sean Miller off the bat were in the mix for numerous high end 4* and 5* guys. Miller just didn't land them at first, but how was he even able to get in their living rooms? You think Sean Miller was such a big time name that these guys had no choice, but to listen, or do you think they wanted to hear from Arizona?

Sean Miller is a good recruiter. He's built relationships (many via promises made and kept to the detriment of the program) to get where he is today as a recruiter, but the Arizona brand is what got him in the door and helped him take off.

Arizona also doesn't need to land top 10 players to succeed. Arizona needs a guy who can develop guys ranked between 26 and 150 or so and build a program. Arizona is not Duke or Kentucky and needs to quit trying to recruit like it quite frankly and the fanbase most importantly need to be ok with that, because here you guys are fricken terrified that we won't land numerous 5* players as if they're the tell all be all of college basketball nowadays when you know damn well they're not.

[Longhorned]

Thanks, choo. I agree with what you wrote.

On that last point, I think the fanbase that would care about recruit rankings is very small, even negligible. And the fans who fill up McKale and watch the games on TV pretty much get to know players as they develop with the team on the court. Recruit rankings are message board stuff, and message board posters are just a small bag of stale nuts.

[Frybry02]

I think Arizona hired miller a decade early. With all signs of the NBA moving towards allowing top HS talent back into the draft, I believe Miller and his system will benefit. He and Arizona would still be able to attract top talent, but far less would be leaving after a year.

[TatetheGreat]

Had we fired him then (with cause as far as the NCAA is concerned),

Oh is that what matters? As long as the NCAA deems it as cause then we don't have to pay a $10 million buyout? Good to know.

Btw the NCAA hasn't deemed shit yet.

Money doesn’t matter? On what planet? I already told you he should be fired for on-court performance, but guess what? Pitino was put on unpaid leave and settled later. Louisville is still waiting for their Notice of Allegations. It didn’t stop them. But sure, innocent until proven guilty. For now, Miller is a victim, Book a criminal working only for his benefit, and we had no ineligible players. I’m sure the NCAA will see it that way.

[ChooChooCat]

Had we fired him then (with cause as far as the NCAA is concerned),

Oh is that what matters? As long as the NCAA deems it as cause then we don't have to pay a $10 million buyout? Good to know.

Btw the NCAA hasn't deemed shit yet.

Money doesn’t matter? On what planet? I already told you he should be fired for on-court performance, but guess what? Pitino was put on unpaid leave and settled later. Louisville is still waiting for their Notice of Allegations. It didn’t stop them. But sure, innocent until proven guilty. For now, Miller is a victim, Book a criminal working only for his benefit, and we had no ineligible players. I’m sure the NCAA will see it that way.

Obviously you don't know how to read.

[RawleArenas]

Choo, you baited me into this discussion. It's all your fault.

It seems that the argument that you're making is that the only contribution that Miller brings to Arizona is recruiting, and that virtue in itself does all the work. And that there are a stable of coaches that could come in and duplicate or exceed what Miller has done here.

If we were talking about Pitino, Stevens, or Donovan, maybe. But there are a lot of problems with that assessment because the premise is faulty. Miller does more than just recruit at Arizona.

First of all I didn't bait you lol and second of all No, my argument was solely that Arizona recruits itself. Does the head coach matter? Sure, absolutely. You can't have a worthless schmuck in charge and to be clear while I think the road that Miller and Arizona are traveling on together should come to an end if the current course continues, I certainly wouldn't call Sean Miller a worthless schmuck. With that being said if a coach is even remotely decent at the recruiting aspect of the job he will ten fold be better at Arizona just like he would be at Kansas, Kentucky, etc.

And while Cronin, Self and Archie have found recruiting success at their respective upgrades, there certainly is an expiration date on the quality of recruits that a coach can bring based on his success on the court, regardless of the past or tradition. Florida is not even a basketball school and their cumulative postseason success eclipses ours (2 titles). And not one fan in Gainesville talks about how Florida (or UCONN for that matter) recruits itself. For lack of a better word, its an extremely lazy way of evaluating Miller's work.

That's a very good point. Inevitably if a coach doesn't perform at his school eventually his recruiting will suffer or at the very least he will have to adjust his recruiting strategy to be effective. Florida basketball is a bad example. Florida is a football school and always will be. Now football schools are in very good position to have good basketball programs as well due to the crazy influx of money they get from football (something Arizona doesn't have). Arizona is obviously a basketball school where the basketball players are the stars of the campus and community. At Florida the basketball players, even future pros, come second to the football players. UCONN does recruit itself honestly, but it just does it to a lesser extent. UCONN also has much more competition regionally than Arizona ever will.

Miller has a background as a high level player and has three gold medals as a player, assistant coach and head coach. In addition to doing less with more at Xavier which is why he chose to come here (albeit reluctantly). Those are extremely strong selling points that not even Lute can boast. That's the reason why despite our tradition, Miller has recruited better than Lute, especially considering the culture of college basketball today.

No prospective college basketball player remembers Sean Miller as a basketball player. If gold medals mattered then Lute Olson falls under the same metric where he actually won a FIBA Championship in 1986, so Lute can obviously boast plenty. Either way Miller's medals is absolutely not the reason why Miller has "recruited better than Lute." Your post was fine until that take man.

Also, saying that we're comparable to UCLA is just plain disingenuous. I'm born and raised in Southern California, and while Arizona has a solid tradition, the resources, location and reputation that UCLA has is off the charts. There's no comparison. Apples and oranges. They're unfortunately the victim of incompetent leadership. But when I think of UCLA I'm reminded of what Napoleon said, "Let China sleep, for when she wakes, she will shake the world." UCLA is a giant in hibernation.

Yep and guess what? UCLA is a job that not many big coaches want and Arizona is. So my point is far from disingenuous. We have a better program than UCLA. We have better fan support than UCLA. We make more money than UCLA. Arizona is a better job than UCLA. Let's also not forget that this UnderArmour deal isn't helping them really. It landed them their sole recruit (a 5* PG), but there's not many UA guys.

A book that I read about Wildcat sports said that after Lute retired, most former players that were interviewed felt that it would take 10 years before Arizona would reach the heights that it had in the past. Once the rebuild went quicker than expected, all those expectations went out the window and fans expected the very best, every year. Miller is largely responsible for that, because he is an excellent coach and program builder. But if you define yourself exclusively by Final Fours (which we continued to choke away even when Lute was here) you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.

I appreciate what Lute has done for Tucson and the University of Arizona. But nostalgia is a funny thing, it can be as much of a burden as it is a joy.

Derrick Williams and ironically enough Tim Floyd are largely responsible for our quick turn around. Either way Arizona under Sean Miller off the bat were in the mix for numerous high end 4* and 5* guys. Miller just didn't land them at first, but how was he even able to get in their living rooms? You think Sean Miller was such a big time name that these guys had no choice, but to listen, or do you think they wanted to hear from Arizona?

Sean Miller is a good recruiter. He's built relationships (many via promises made and kept to the detriment of the program) to get where he is today as a recruiter, but the Arizona brand is what got him in the door and helped him take off.

Arizona also doesn't need to land top 10 players to succeed. Arizona needs a guy who can develop guys ranked between 26 and 150 or so and build a program. Arizona is not Duke or Kentucky and needs to quit trying to recruit like it quite frankly and the fanbase most importantly need to be ok with that, because here you guys are fricken terrified that we won't land numerous 5* players as if they're the tell all be all of college basketball nowadays when you know damn well they're not.

Choo, I was just ribbing you about the baiting. Doesn't anybody have a sense of humor anymore?

The problem is, if supermodels are chasing you or showing interest, do you kick them to the curb even if some of them are high maintenance or head cases??? Most guys and by extension most coaches wouldn't care. The majority of coaches work their whole career to get top 10 recruits knocking on their doors. It's just not that easy to ignore them and focus on ESPN 25-100 guys. Even Mark Few has bought into this madness (I'm talking to you Jalen Suggs).

Sean Miller is a blue collar guy with great credentials. It takes a certain level of masochism to endure what he has over the past five or six years because at Arizona, good is never good enough. The point I was making about Florida and UCONN is that those programs had HOF coaches and because those programs suffered for a while after those coaches left, they are much more humble than we are. And as a result no one complains or expects Final Fours, despite the fact their records are better than ours. UCONN's doesn't recruit itself period. There are no one near the level of Richard Hamiilton, Ben Gordon, Caron Butler or Kemba Walker that has been a part of their program over the past four years or so. And I don't thin Hurley is the guy to get the job done.

Arizona is not an impermeable brand that will bring in talent regardless of the level of leadership. Like Spiff warned, we can bring in a coach who can actually show us what mediocrity really is. It's hard to have perspective when you eat steak everyday and all the fans want filet mignon. It's impossible to see our situation clearly if you're complaining about Elite Eight ceilings.

The main reason why I brought up Miller's credentials (gold medals) is because they absolutely matter. For all intents and purposes Miller was a hoops prodigy early on, was Big East freshmen of the year in a ferocious conference, and has been very successful with USA basketball, winning those medals. So when Miller sits in a recruits living room and can back up what he talks about because he's played, coached and recruited at the highest levels, they will listen. Also, it was only a year and a half ago that people said that Miller couldn't recruit at all, and that Book was the diabolical mastermind and that the Arizona brand could not recover and that we would fall into oblivion.

Arizona will never be a better job than UCLA, not by any metric. It goes way beyond revenue generated and the fan support (which people think recruits care about). There's way too many peripheral advantages to being a successful coach at UCLA. Fan support and revenues can change overnight if they hire a home run candidate. It's not even debatable. UCLA is the potential Aston Martin of college basketball. The problem with Arizona and UCLA is that fans aren't willing to acknowledge that talented coaches shy away from the programs like us, because they can't mold it into their image. UCLA wanted Rick Barnes to pay his own buyout for the privilege of coaching at Westwood. Arizona fans are the same way, thinking that what has happened to UNLV, UCLA and UCONN can't happen to us. It's just reckless hubris. We just think great coaches will line up in way that they didn't for UCLA, Florida or other programs with more money and better resources.

Mark Few is revered because he was allowed the opportunity to not coach in the shadow of a Hall of Fame coach. He was able to tinker with his system until he found what worked, with no one breathing down his neck or demanding a Final Four. That will never happen at Arizona; the minute you arrive here you're on the instant hotseat and people will criticize every aspect of your life from day one. Unless you're Donovan or Pitino, no up and comer wants to put up with that, especially the inevitable down years that come with building a program.

I will say this about Miller. He has never had a player like Pritchard or Frank Mason. And what I mean is a player that is high impact from day one, whose game does not translate immediately to the NBA and has to stay four years. That type of player has eluded him for his entire time here. Whether he gets a chance to find one, who knows.

[goslingswagg]

Rawle - you are wrong about UCLA being better than Arizona. Better history, yes. But we are absolutely a more desirable job than UCLA now, no doubt about that.

[RawleArenas]

Outside of athletics, UCLA is the most desired school in the entire world. If Billy Donovan agreed to go to Westwood tomorrow, the entire balance of power in the West Coast would shift.

Recruits don't care about day trips to the Bio Dome and passing around gallons of ben gay at McKale. UCLA is located in a city where recruits want to live if and when they make the NBA, in addition to ridiculous opportunities outside of basketball that Southern California offers. I hope the fan base truly doesn't get a chance to see how the other half lives.

[ChooChooCat]

Choo, I was just ribbing you about the baiting. Doesn't anybody have a sense of humor anymore?

I laughed.

The problem is, if supermodels are chasing you or showing interest, do you kick them to the curb even if some of them are high maintenance or head cases??? Most guys and by extension most coaches wouldn't care. The majority of coaches work their whole career to get top 10 recruits knocking on their doors. It's just not that easy to ignore them and focus on ESPN 25-100 guys. Even Mark Few has bought into this madness (I'm talking to you Jalen Suggs).

Landing one top 10 guy here and there is a good recipe for success if you have a structured roster built up around them. Kind of like when we landed Stanley and Aaron Gordon.

Sean Miller is a blue collar guy with great credentials. It takes a certain level of masochism to endure what he has over the past five or six years because at Arizona, good is never good enough. The point I was making about Florida and UCONN is that those programs had HOF coaches and because those programs suffered for a while after those coaches left, they are much more humble than we are. And as a result no one complains or expects Final Fours, despite the fact their records are better than ours. UCONN's doesn't recruit itself period. There are no one near the level of Richard Hamiilton, Ben Gordon, Caron Butler or Kemba Walker that has been a part of their program over the past four years or so. And I don't thin Hurley is the guy to get the job done.

UCONN is a victim of conference realignment. Being a part of the American Conference for so long absolutely destroyed them more than anything. The reason Florida is in the position their in is they had an AD who thought he was smarter than every one else and could identify diamond in the rough coaches. He did with his football coaching hires and he even did it with the Billy Donovan hire. He hired a guy with little track record out of Louisiana Tech. You get what you deserve some time when you keep trying to play smartest guy in the room. These are both unique situations that do not apply to us Rawle.

Arizona is not an impermeable brand that will bring in talent regardless of the level of leadership. Like Spiff warned, we can bring in a coach who can actually show us what mediocrity really is. It's hard to have perspective when you eat steak everyday and all the fans want filet mignon. It's impossible to see our situation clearly if you're complaining about Elite Eight ceilings.

Sure, a real bad coach could ruin us, but we proved we're not a one coach program at this point. Something that neither UCONN nor Florida (your fav examples) have not been able to overcome. Most of us here aren't even complaining about Elite Eight ceilings at this point.

The main reason why I brought up Miller's credentials (gold medals) is because they absolutely matter. For all intents and purposes Miller was a hoops prodigy early on, was Big East freshmen of the year in a ferocious conference, and has been very successful with USA basketball, winning those medals. So when Miller sits in a recruits living room and can back up what he talks about because he's played, coached and recruited at the highest levels, they will listen. Also, it was only a year and a half ago that people said that Miller couldn't recruit at all, and that Book was the diabolical mastermind and that the Arizona brand could not recover and that we would fall into oblivion.

Eh, do Calipari, Coach K, Self, Izzo, have a major playing basketball background that has mattered to them ever? It's all fluff. Who cares? Recruits don't.

Arizona will never be a better job than UCLA, not by any metric. It goes way beyond revenue generated and the fan support (which people think recruits care about). There's way too many peripheral advantages to being a successful coach at UCLA. Fan support and revenues can change overnight if they hire a home run candidate. It's not even debatable. UCLA is the potential Aston Martin of college basketball. The problem with Arizona and UCLA is that fans aren't willing to acknowledge that talented coaches shy away from the programs like us, because they can't mold it into their image. UCLA wanted Rick Barnes to pay his own buyout for the privilege of coaching at Westwood. Arizona fans are the same way, thinking that what has happened to UNLV, UCLA and UCONN can't happen to us. It's just reckless hubris. We just think great coaches will line up in way that they didn't for UCLA, Florida or other programs with more money and better resources.

You're stuck in the 1990s.

Mark Few is revered because he was allowed the opportunity to not coach in the shadow of a Hall of Fame coach. He was able to tinker with his system until he found what worked, with no one breathing down his neck or demanding a Final Four. That will never happen at Arizona; the minute you arrive here you're on the instant hotseat and people will criticize every aspect of your life from day one. Unless you're Donovan or Pitino, no up and comer wants to put up with that, especially the inevitable down years that come with building a program.

Sean Miller wasn't on the instant hot seat when he started here. We've got a smart and overall patient fanbase. Show us positive things even if you fall short and we'll back you. Show a consistent negative trend over a decade into your tenure and well you got what you're seeing now. No up and comer wants to put up with that huh? That's why all up and comers take bigger jobs pretty much always right? These guys are some of the most arrogant people in the world. Hell you have to be to be a successful head coach. There's not many coaches out there that would look at Arizona and say "I wouldn't be able to succeed there." That's all that matters.

I will say this about Miller. He has never had a player like Pritchard or Frank Mason. And what I mean is a player that is high impact from day one, whose game does not translate immediately to the NBA and has to stay four years. That type of player has eluded him for his entire time here. Whether he gets a chance to find one, who knows.

Yep, I agree with this. Miller either over recruited guys who could've been that guy or if they got to the level of being that guy they bounced early. Roster management has been a real issue during the Sean Miller era here.

[ChooChooCat]

Outside of athletics, UCLA is the most desired school in the entire world. If Billy Donovan agreed to go to Westwood tomorrow, the entire balance of power in the West Coast would shift.

He's been offered the job before, he said no. So did Shaka Smart FFS. UCLA is such a great job nowadays that he decided to coach at a football school instead. Jamie Dixon wouldn't even leave TCU for UCLA.

[Merkin]

Outside of athletics, UCLA is the most desired school in the entire world. If Billy Donovan agreed to go to Westwood tomorrow, the entire balance of power in the West Coast would shift.

He's been offered the job before, he said no. So did Shaka Smart FFS. UCLA is such a great job nowadays that he decided to coach at a football school instead. Jamie Dixon wouldn't even leave TCU for UCLA.

Didn't 8-10 coaches turn UCLA down for interviews?

[Beachcat97]

I don't really give a F whether AZ is a better job than UCLA. They're both great jobs. Move on.

What I do care about is that Miller's recent teams have gotten steadily worse as the season wears on. If this is a DWWD thing, then it's time to be honest about how uninspired, unimaginative and unsuccessful this philosophy has been for the program. I look at a program like Syracuse. If Boeheim preaches DWWD, the proof is in the fucking pudding. They've won a national title and have been to several FFs. I'm not sure Miller has earned the same benefit of the doubt. Can he look a room of reporters in the face after getting blown out by Oregon State and say, "hey, we do what we do."?

[CatFanOneMil]

I have no idea what you guys think Miller should do in a game like last night...his most experienced player fouled TWO three point shooters and bricked several three point attempts himself...Jeter has gotten worse...

Zeke needs to go to the draft no matter what position he gets ANY big who stays at AZ gets worse each year, its the Zeus affect and ever since we lost Joseph Blair-helping our bigs, our bigs are now crap...

But what do you do when your veteran players are playing like a jr. high girls team? Throw in the inexperienced guys?

OSU starts 3 seniors and two juniors...those guys are levels ahead of our most experienced players because they've been together for four years...

Because of the expectations here we turn our roster over EVERY year...and if Miller did not recruit one-n-dones everyone would be calling for his head on a platter because to coach a team like Tinkles team takes at least 4 years and even that is mediocre at best...

You can't best that zone if you are not hitting three's...and we have not been hitting threes for many many years...and to add to that they changed the three point line this year...

I just don't know what you people calling for Millers head expect him to do in a game like this...but I'm sure you're all better coaches than he is, you've made that much clear.

[ASUHATER!]

I have no idea what you guys think Miller should do in a game like last night...his most experienced player fouled TWO three point shooters and bricked several three point attempts himself...Jeter has gotten worse...

Zeke needs to go to the draft no matter what position he gets ANY big who stays at AZ gets worse each year, its the Zeus affect and ever since we lost Joseph Blair-helping our bigs, our bigs are now crap...

But what do you do when your veteran players are playing like a jr. high girls team? Throw in the inexperienced guys?

OSU starts 3 seniors and two juniors...those guys are levels ahead of our most experienced players because they've been together for four years...

Because of the expectations here we turn our roster over EVERY year...and if Miller did not recruit one-n-dones everyone would be calling for his head on a platter because to coach a team like Tinkles team takes at least 4 years and even that is mediocre at best...

You can't best that zone if you are not hitting three's...and we have not been hitting threes for many many years...and to add to that they changed the three point line this year...

I just don't know what you people calling for Millers head expect him to do in a game like this...but I'm sure you're all better coaches than he is, you've made that much clear.

What I expect him to do is not be completely outcoached and blown out by Oregon State.

The excuses people come up with are getting worse and worse. Good teams don't lose to every team with a pulse they play.

[PHXCATS]

Curious for all the people saying Miller has not won a big game in years.

Does Saturday count as a big game since Colorado is very good and ranked #20 this week?

[ChooChooCat]

I have no idea what you guys think Miller should do in a game like last night...his most experienced player fouled TWO three point shooters and bricked several three point attempts himself...Jeter has gotten worse...

Zeke needs to go to the draft no matter what position he gets ANY big who stays at AZ gets worse each year, its the Zeus affect and ever since we lost Joseph Blair-helping our bigs, our bigs are now crap...

But what do you do when your veteran players are playing like a jr. high girls team? Throw in the inexperienced guys?

OSU starts 3 seniors and two juniors...those guys are levels ahead of our most experienced players because they've been together for four years...

Because of the expectations here we turn our roster over EVERY year...and if Miller did not recruit one-n-dones everyone would be calling for his head on a platter because to coach a team like Tinkles team takes at least 4 years and even that is mediocre at best...

You can't best that zone if you are not hitting three's...and we have not been hitting threes for many many years...and to add to that they changed the three point line this year...

I just don't know what you people calling for Millers head expect him to do in a game like this...but I'm sure you're all better coaches than he is, you've made that much clear.

What I expect him to do is not be completely outcoached and blown out by Oregon State.

The excuses people come up with are getting worse and worse. Good teams don't lose to every team with a pulse they play.

Exactly. I mean if the excuse is his most experienced players were the problem, well doesn't that fall under him failing to develop them properly?

[ChooChooCat]

Curious for all the people saying Miller has not won a big game in years.

Does Saturday count as a big game since Colorado is very good and ranked #20 this week?

Normally no, but this year it's literally the biggest game on the schedule due to our current circumstances. He has to sweep this week.

[Merkin]

What's even worse, is that I expected the UA to lose, and that Tinkle Jr would have a career game. Don't know if he did or not, but he played pretty darn good.

During the Lute years, I never expected the Cats to lose any game. Miller just can't win a big game anymore, not that ntOSU is big, but it was a big deal for UA to try and split the series.

Like someone mentioned on Twitter, the beginning of the end for Miller was Wisconsin, and ended with Buffalo.

[Beachcat97]

Curious for all the people saying Miller has not won a big game in years.

Does Saturday count as a big game since Colorado is very good and ranked #20 this week?

Normally no, but this year it's literally the biggest game on the schedule due to our current circumstances. He has to sweep this week.

Yep. No more excuses. It's mid-January and our tourney bid status is shaky AF at the moment.

[Beachcat97]

What's even worse, is that I expected the UA to lose, and that Tinkle Jr would have a career game. Don't know if he did or not, but he played pretty darn good.

During the Lute years, I never expected the Cats to lose any game. Miller just can't win a big game anymore, not that ntOSU is big, but it was a big deal for UA to try and split the series.

Like someone mentioned on Twitter, the beginning of the end for Miller was Wisconsin, and ended with Buffalo.

He did win some big games in 2017. Beat UCLA and Oregon (both highly ranked teams that year) en route to a Pac tourney title. Just trying to give a guy his due.

[RawleArenas]

Choo, I was just ribbing you about the baiting. Doesn't anybody have a sense of humor anymore?

I laughed.

The problem is, if supermodels are chasing you or showing interest, do you kick them to the curb even if some of them are high maintenance or head cases??? Most guys and by extension most coaches wouldn't care. The majority of coaches work their whole career to get top 10 recruits knocking on their doors. It's just not that easy to ignore them and focus on ESPN 25-100 guys. Even Mark Few has bought into this madness (I'm talking to you Jalen Suggs).

Landing one top 10 guy here and there is a good recipe for success if you have a structured roster built up around them. Kind of like when we landed Stanley and Aaron Gordon.

Sean Miller is a blue collar guy with great credentials. It takes a certain level of masochism to endure what he has over the past five or six years because at Arizona, good is never good enough. The point I was making about Florida and UCONN is that those programs had HOF coaches and because those programs suffered for a while after those coaches left, they are much more humble than we are. And as a result no one complains or expects Final Fours, despite the fact their records are better than ours. UCONN's doesn't recruit itself period. There are no one near the level of Richard Hamiilton, Ben Gordon, Caron Butler or Kemba Walker that has been a part of their program over the past four years or so. And I don't thin Hurley is the guy to get the job done.

UCONN is a victim of conference realignment. Being a part of the American Conference for so long absolutely destroyed them more than anything. The reason Florida is in the position their in is they had an AD who thought he was smarter than every one else and could identify diamond in the rough coaches. He did with his football coaching hires and he even did it with the Billy Donovan hire. He hired a guy with little track record out of Louisiana Tech. You get what you deserve some time when you keep trying to play smartest guy in the room. These are both unique situations that do not apply to us Rawle.

Arizona is not an impermeable brand that will bring in talent regardless of the level of leadership. Like Spiff warned, we can bring in a coach who can actually show us what mediocrity really is. It's hard to have perspective when you eat steak everyday and all the fans want filet mignon. It's impossible to see our situation clearly if you're complaining about Elite Eight ceilings.

Sure, a real bad coach could ruin us, but we proved we're not a one coach program at this point. Something that neither UCONN nor Florida (your fav examples) have not been able to overcome. Most of us here aren't even complaining about Elite Eight ceilings at this point.

The main reason why I brought up Miller's credentials (gold medals) is because they absolutely matter. For all intents and purposes Miller was a hoops prodigy early on, was Big East freshmen of the year in a ferocious conference, and has been very successful with USA basketball, winning those medals. So when Miller sits in a recruits living room and can back up what he talks about because he's played, coached and recruited at the highest levels, they will listen. Also, it was only a year and a half ago that people said that Miller couldn't recruit at all, and that Book was the diabolical mastermind and that the Arizona brand could not recover and that we would fall into oblivion.

Eh, do Calipari, Coach K, Self, Izzo, have a major playing basketball background that has mattered to them ever? It's all fluff. Who cares? Recruits don't.

Arizona will never be a better job than UCLA, not by any metric. It goes way beyond revenue generated and the fan support (which people think recruits care about). There's way too many peripheral advantages to being a successful coach at UCLA. Fan support and revenues can change overnight if they hire a home run candidate. It's not even debatable. UCLA is the potential Aston Martin of college basketball. The problem with Arizona and UCLA is that fans aren't willing to acknowledge that talented coaches shy away from the programs like us, because they can't mold it into their image. UCLA wanted Rick Barnes to pay his own buyout for the privilege of coaching at Westwood. Arizona fans are the same way, thinking that what has happened to UNLV, UCLA and UCONN can't happen to us. It's just reckless hubris. We just think great coaches will line up in way that they didn't for UCLA, Florida or other programs with more money and better resources.

You're stuck in the 1990s.

Mark Few is revered because he was allowed the opportunity to not coach in the shadow of a Hall of Fame coach. He was able to tinker with his system until he found what worked, with no one breathing down his neck or demanding a Final Four. That will never happen at Arizona; the minute you arrive here you're on the instant hotseat and people will criticize every aspect of your life from day one. Unless you're Donovan or Pitino, no up and comer wants to put up with that, especially the inevitable down years that come with building a program.

Sean Miller wasn't on the instant hot seat when he started here. We've got a smart and overall patient fanbase. Show us positive things even if you fall short and we'll back you. Show a consistent negative trend over a decade into your tenure and well you got what you're seeing now. No up and comer wants to put up with that huh? That's why all up and comers take bigger jobs pretty much always right? These guys are some of the most arrogant people in the world. Hell you have to be to be a successful head coach. There's not many coaches out there that would look at Arizona and say "I wouldn't be able to succeed there." That's all that matters.

I will say this about Miller. He has never had a player like Pritchard or Frank Mason. And what I mean is a player that is high impact from day one, whose game does not translate immediately to the NBA and has to stay four years. That type of player has eluded him for his entire time here. Whether he gets a chance to find one, who knows.

Yep, I agree with this. Miller either over recruited guys who could've been that guy or if they got to the level of being that guy they bounced early. Roster management has been a real issue during the Sean Miller era here.

I think you know I was talking managing expectations based on tradition and history when it comes to UCONN and Florida. You seem to think that we are more than a one coach program because of the Arizona brand and that's ridiculous. Even Kentucky had problems with Gillespie.

Do you think Robbins is better Scott Stricklin? You have confidence that he can find someone to eclipse what Miller has done?
More importantly, are you willing to take a step back to take a step forward?

Also, I don't know if you peruse this forum regularly, but there are a lot of guys here who preach Final Four or nothing at all. You may have other expectations, but many hold it against Miller.

How would you know if Miller's background doesn't factor into a recruits decision making? I never said it was only about his playing career, it was his whole body of work, which of course matters.

Saying that UCLA has structural and financial advantages over Arizona has nothing to do with being stuck in the 1990's. It's just plain fact. Hubris and entitlement will drive away talent, and if the fans get their way we will learn about it firsthand. Those coaches turned down UCLA for many of the reasons that a lot of coaches will turn down Arizona. They know Miller is a good coach, and that they will inevitable run into the same problems that he ran into here, just like Shaka at Texas.

Yes, Miller was not on the hotseat when he got here. But after he started making elite eights the expectations changed, and therefore the evaluation of his performance on the court changed accordingly. If negative trends include Pac titles and 26+ wins seasons, then you're I think you just made my point for me.

[PHXCATS]

Curious for all the people saying Miller has not won a big game in years.

Does Saturday count as a big game since Colorado is very good and ranked #20 this week?

Normally no, but this year it's literally the biggest game on the schedule due to our current circumstances. He has to sweep this week.

Yep. No more excuses. It's mid-January and our tourney bid status is shaky AF at the moment.

For fuck sake it is not

U of A is 18 in both Ken Pom and NET.

U of A is a fucking absolute lock if the tournament started today.