Bordercat wrote:When Lute Olson said- we made this a basketball town, it was a pretty profound statement.
Speaking of which, I doubt Lute is doing well. Going to be a really sad day when Lute passes.
Just shows how old I am, I was a junior or senior at UA when he was hired. Now that was turbulent times for UA basketball. Snowden was really in the hot seat, then his wife gets arrested for shoplifting at Levy's(?) which didn't help. Lindsay couldn't control his players and they revolted.
jsbowl16 wrote:The grass isnt always greener on the other side. This could be a lot worse than it is. Just think of where we might be if Miller didnt come here. The answer is we could easily be irrellevant by now.
The reason I'm not buying this argument is because (a) our recruiting will be strong under just about any coach and (b) it's fair to ask if our E8 runs were more a product of Miller's system or the unbelievable collection of talent we had in those years.
If Miller's system is engineered to produce FFs, why hasn't he gotten there, especially given the list of NBA players he's had? Also, Miller seemed to be connecting with his players more in the past. Think of Parrom, TJ, D-Will, Kadeem...these guys loved Miller. I'm not seeing that same closeness with his players these days.
The belief that our recruiting will be strong under any coach is delusional at best. This is a great example of how spoiled we are as fans in thinking that we cant ever be irrelevant because we are Arizona.
Bordercat wrote:When Lute Olson said- we made this a basketball town, it was a pretty profound statement.
Speaking of which, I doubt Lute is doing well. Going to be a really sad day when Lute passes.
Just shows how old I am, I was a junior or senior at UA when he was hired. Now that was turbulent times for UA basketball. Snowden was really in the hot seat, then his wife gets arrested for shoplifting at Levy's(?) which didn't help. Lindsay couldn't control his players and they revolted.
Couldn't even give UA basketball tickets away.
That really puts things in perspective, Merk. Thanks.
And yeah, I've been thinking about Lute lately. He hasn't been at games, so I'm assuming he's gotten more limited with what he can do.
Lute is UofA/Tucson royalty. He is Arizona basketball.
I hope that our next coach appreciates the weight of both Lute's legacy and our expectations for greatness. Sean Miller definitely does, and I give him a ton of credit for that.
jsbowl16 wrote:The grass isnt always greener on the other side. This could be a lot worse than it is. Just think of where we might be if Miller didnt come here. The answer is we could easily be irrellevant by now.
I agree that getting a new coach is a risk... but unless we are seriously competing for Final 4's aren't we already irrelevant?
This is Arizona... we should be optimistic almost every year here.
If we make the tournament then in my opinion we arent irrelevant because anyone can get hot for four games and has a shot at the final four. I live pretty close to Rutgers and I've had ticket plans in the past few years mainly to see other Big 10 teams. They havent made the tournament since 1991. This is what I call irrelevant.
You are not actually saying relevance has the same meaning at Rutgers as it does at Arizona do you?
Since when is just making the tournament been acceptable here?
To me, there should always be the expectation of a sweet 16. Not that an early upset here or there would get me off the bandwagon.... I just NEVER have an expectation that we won't at least get there. (Although I don't currently have that expectation.... and that's the problem)
Alieberman wrote:To me, there should always be the expectation of a sweet 16. Not that an early upset here or there would get me off the bandwagon.... I just NEVER have an expectation that we won't at least get there. (Although I don't currently have that expectation.... and that's the problem)
This. Sign of a healthy AZ program, imo.
I don't even have an expectation that we can stay within 15 points of UCLA today. That's the problem.
Alieberman wrote:To me, there should always be the expectation of a sweet 16. Not that an early upset here or there would get me off the bandwagon.... I just NEVER have an expectation that we won't at least get there. (Although I don't currently have that expectation.... and that's the problem)
This. Sign of a healthy AZ program, imo.
I don't even have an expectation that we can stay within 15 points of UCLA today. That's the problem.
There's nothing wrong with a rebuilding year scattered every few years or so in there as well, but the problem is this isn't a rebuilding year. We're literally losing all 5 starters and some major bench pieces.
I am not saying I agree or disagree with Miller being fired. I am just not very optimistic about who we would end up with next.
Are we prepared to possibly not make the tournament for a few years? Will we lower expectations at that point? Nobody else of any merit was overly interested when we hired Miller. Will the NCAA investigation make this a better place to coach than it was when Miller was hired?
jsbowl16 wrote:I am not saying I agree or disagree with Miller being fired. I am just not very optimistic about who we would end up with next.
Are we prepared to possibly not make the tournament for a few years? Will we lower expectations at that point? Nobody else of any merit was overly interested when we hired Miller. Will the NCAA investigation make this a better place to coach than it was when Miller was hired?
Sure expectations with get lower with a new coach for a couple years. But look at what UCLA is doing this year with a coach who no one was excited with... in year 1. We get a coach who can coach.... we will be fine. Top west coast kids are still going to give Arizona a hard look.
jsbowl16 wrote:I am not saying I agree or disagree with Miller being fired. I am just not very optimistic about who we would end up with next.
Are we prepared to possibly not make the tournament for a few years? Will we lower expectations at that point? Nobody else of any merit was overly interested when we hired Miller. Will the NCAA investigation make this a better place to coach than it was when Miller was hired?
We were seen as a likely one coach program who returned a nothing roster and had 3 coaches on 3 years. We're in a totally different situation now than we were then and for as bad as we were we hired fucking Sean Miller, who was the biggest up and coming coach at the time, save the worries my man.
The problem with Arizona basketball at this moment is not Arizona basketball, it's the current culture surrounding it.
jsbowl16 wrote:I am not saying I agree or disagree with Miller being fired. I am just not very optimistic about who we would end up with next.
Are we prepared to possibly not make the tournament for a few years? Will we lower expectations at that point? Nobody else of any merit was overly interested when we hired Miller. Will the NCAA investigation make this a better place to coach than it was when Miller was hired?
Sure expectations with get lower with a new coach for a couple years. But look at what UCLA is doing this year with a coach who no one was excited with... in year 1. We get a coach who can coach.... we will be fine. Top west coast kids are still going to give Arizona a hard look.
UCLA doesnt have an NCAA investigation hanging over their program.
jsbowl16 wrote:I am not saying I agree or disagree with Miller being fired. I am just not very optimistic about who we would end up with next.
Are we prepared to possibly not make the tournament for a few years? Will we lower expectations at that point? Nobody else of any merit was overly interested when we hired Miller. Will the NCAA investigation make this a better place to coach than it was when Miller was hired?
Sure expectations with get lower with a new coach for a couple years. But look at what UCLA is doing this year with a coach who no one was excited with... in year 1. We get a coach who can coach.... we will be fine. Top west coast kids are still going to give Arizona a hard look.
UCLA doesnt have an NCAA investigation hanging over their program.
Louisville does. We're not getting the death penalty FFS. Worse case scenario is a one year tourney ban and a Sean Miller suspension. Not many prospective coaches will give two shits about that. If anything they get to instill their culture and system in a year with no pressure, much like Miller's first season here.
jsbowl16 wrote:I am not saying I agree or disagree with Miller being fired. I am just not very optimistic about who we would end up with next.
Are we prepared to possibly not make the tournament for a few years? Will we lower expectations at that point? Nobody else of any merit was overly interested when we hired Miller. Will the NCAA investigation make this a better place to coach than it was when Miller was hired?
Sure expectations with get lower with a new coach for a couple years. But look at what UCLA is doing this year with a coach who no one was excited with... in year 1. We get a coach who can coach.... we will be fine. Top west coast kids are still going to give Arizona a hard look.
UCLA doesnt have an NCAA investigation hanging over their program.
Louisville does. We're not getting the death penalty FFS.
We could still lose some scholarships or have some postseason bans which would scare some coaches away.
Alieberman wrote:To me, there should always be the expectation of a sweet 16. Not that an early upset here or there would get me off the bandwagon.... I just NEVER have an expectation that we won't at least get there. (Although I don't currently have that expectation.... and that's the problem)
This. Sign of a healthy AZ program, imo.
I don't even have an expectation that we can stay within 15 points of UCLA today. That's the problem.
There's nothing wrong with a rebuilding year scattered every few years or so in there as well, but the problem is this isn't a rebuilding year. We're literally losing all 5 starters and some major bench pieces.
This is a major part of why my attitude towards Miller has changed over the last few months.
This was supposed to be a big year for our team! Yes, there were some setbacks. We lost B-Will to injury. Doutrive transferred. And we were supposed to have Terry Armstrong. But we STILL have a roster that should be doing better than it is. Did Miller mis-evaluate players? Did he make the mistake of recruiting bad fits for his system? Is Miller in a rut professionally and possibly in need of some time away from the game? Who knows?
All I know is that a year ago, the only thing keeping my spirits up amid a godawful 2018-19 season (when we finished under 500 in league play) was the prospect of a huge bounce back year in 2019-20. Hasn't happened. Not even close.
jsbowl16 wrote:I am not saying I agree or disagree with Miller being fired. I am just not very optimistic about who we would end up with next.
Are we prepared to possibly not make the tournament for a few years? Will we lower expectations at that point? Nobody else of any merit was overly interested when we hired Miller. Will the NCAA investigation make this a better place to coach than it was when Miller was hired?
Sure expectations with get lower with a new coach for a couple years. But look at what UCLA is doing this year with a coach who no one was excited with... in year 1. We get a coach who can coach.... we will be fine. Top west coast kids are still going to give Arizona a hard look.
UCLA doesnt have an NCAA investigation hanging over their program.
Louisville does. We're not getting the death penalty FFS.
We could still lose some scholarships or have some postseason bans which would scare some coaches away.
Name a coach that utilizes all 13 scholarships with high level players. Miller also had scholarship restrictions when he first took the job as well if you recall. I already mentioned the postseason ban.
No one will give a damn about any of that I promise you. No one that signs on to coach Arizona will be expected to win a national title nor would they expect to do so immediately. All your concerns quite frankly mean DICK.
The maturity on this board is at a preschool name calling level. There are five or so people on here and if you dont agree with their opinions you are sworn at or called a dick. Send me an email when you people grow up and can handle an adult conversation. I'm out.
jsbowl16 wrote:The maturity on this board is at a preschool name calling level. There are five or so people on here and if you dont agree with their opinions you are sworn at or called a dick. Send me an email when you people grow up and can handle an adult conversation. I'm out.
Nobody called you a dick or swore at you. Your reading comprehension is obviously not that of an adult.
Beachcat97 wrote:Strange question: would Miller getting fired possibly offset or lighten any possible NCAA penalties?
I'd have to guess no. The NCAA will still punish the program, not the coach especially in the case of a termination. Miller would walk away with a lot of money which is to his advantage since he may have a hard time getting another coaching job at a major program. Even if Miller does gets fired he wins based on his contract. Payouts to both Sumlin and Miller in close proximity will cost the University a ton of money. I see Sumlin going but not Miller.
Rumor the other board that was taken down is that Green is done for the season. His camp thinks Miller is hurting his stock. Idk if true but with that and the Hazzard rumor now is our team self imploding at the worst possible time?
Lando05 wrote:Rumor the other board that was taken down is that Green is done for the season. His camp thinks Miller is hurting his stock. Idk if true but with that and the Hazzard rumor now is our team self imploding at the worst possible time?
Lol.
Fuck camps.
And give miller a Porsche and he’ll drive it like a Buick
Miller deserves credit for the way hes recruited at Arizona - to say anybody can step in and duplicate that level of success is being a bit aggressive only because he set the bar, even his predecessor as successful and widely popular as he was didn’t recruit at Millers level.
the machine was oiled slick and ready to stack and Book Richardson opened his big mouth, that’s it.
you lace in some bad loses and questionable roster loyalty/management and here we all are today.
i held the position before the season that if Arizona didn’t compete for a conf championship and advance to the second weekend that there would be great pressure to move on.
however if you told me Arizona would have the season it’s had so far I woulda said he would be out for sure, especially if AZ somehow misses the tournament.
there are other factors involved like football and other bullshit that could prolong the tenure I really don’t know, but the representation of what Arizona Basketball is to so many isn’t being represented on the floor and quite frankly hasn’t been represented for years.
there was pressure before and I’d imagine there is pressure now... bad, listless, uninspired loses don’t help the cause.
it’s been almost four years since I saw my first real version of what Arizona often looks like today and it keeps repeating itself
"there are other factors involved like football and other bullshit that could prolong the tenure I really don’t know, but the representation of what Arizona Basketball is to so many isn’t being represented on the floor and quite frankly hasn’t been represented for years."
jsbowl16 wrote:The maturity on this board is at a preschool name calling level. There are five or so people on here and if you dont agree with their opinions you are sworn at or called a dick. Send me an email when you people grow up and can handle an adult conversation. I'm out.
I don’t know who you are talking about but I was just having a conversation so I hope you weren’t talking about me. I don’t think I said anything personal, just looking at things differently
Lando05 wrote:Rumor the other board that was taken down is that Green is done for the season. His camp thinks Miller is hurting his stock. Idk if true but with that and the Hazzard rumor now is our team self imploding at the worst possible time?
I can only imagine it’s a rumor. If it’s not, his camp only has Green to blame. Green has the green light to shoot any open 3 and he hasn’t been reliable in that situation. His shot selection is poor at best. He settles for way too many pull-ups or floaters instead of attacking the rim.
Thank you for sharing 97Cats. Yeah I think I knew when we lost to Xavier with a vastly superior team. I was in denial, the trajectory of this program is pointing down. I think we've all given Miller many chances, the way we as a fanbase rallied after espngate was amazing, shows that we have but the results speak for themselves. This isn't Arizona basketball were watching and haven't in a while. 97Cats is right Miller has recruited at a much higher level than Lute even. I hope that Miller's success he did have here after Lute is an indicator that U of A recruiter itself very well and with a good recruiter it can recruit at an elite level. Either way I'm at a point where I'm more excited for a coaching search than watching this team anymore. They are not fun to watch. Maybe they can pull themselves together and really. I'll still watch and cheer but it's probably best for both Miller and Arizona to move on from each other. Both need fresh starts.
Last edited by Lando05 on Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
the Xavier loss was a heartbreaker - the Wichita State loss was the first time I’ve seen a healthy Arizona program get bitch slapped, and Ive seen it repeat itself several times since that very date...the loss to Xavier wasn’t one of those times for me.
97cats wrote:the Xavier loss was a heartbreaker - the Wichita State loss was the first time I’ve seen a healthy Arizona program get bitch slapped, and Ive seen it repeat itself several times since that very date...the loss to Xavier wasn’t one of those times for me.
That makes sense, I actually just thought that Whichta State team was better than us. Your right thogh we hadn't had a loss like that under Mler until that game. Since we've seen many repeats of that game over and over.
I dunno, guys. 13 seed Buffalo over 4 seed AZ was a tougher pill for me than Wichita. Maybe I'm in the minority. Keep in mind Buffalo lost by 20 to Kentucky in the next round.
97cats wrote:Miller deserves credit for the way hes recruited at Arizona - to say anybody can step in and duplicate that level of success is being a bit aggressive only because he set the bar, even his predecessor as successful and widely popular as he was didn’t recruit at Millers level.
the machine was oiled slick and ready to stack and Book Richardson opened his big mouth, that’s it.
you lace in some bad loses and questionable roster loyalty/management and here we all are today.
i held the position before the season that if Arizona didn’t compete for a conf championship and advance to the second weekend that there would be great pressure to move on.
however if you told me Arizona would have the season it’s had so far I woulda said he would be out for sure, especially if AZ somehow misses the tournament.
there are other factors involved like football and other bullshit that could prolong the tenure I really don’t know, but the representation of what Arizona Basketball is to so many isn’t being represented on the floor and quite frankly hasn’t been represented for years.
there was pressure before and I’d imagine there is pressure now... bad, listless, uninspired loses don’t help the cause.
it’s been almost four years since I saw my first real version of what Arizona often looks like today and it keeps repeating itself
My sole argument to this very good post is that Arizona doesn't need to recruit like Sean Miller has to have the utmost success. If anything personally you could argue that Miller's level of recruiting has been a hindrance for him and his program.
Yes I hear everyone’s comments above, I guess for me, Wichita st sprained serious questions for me for the reasons you say, and those questions began to grow and stick with me through the next season and really affected my how I view my experience and reflection on the Xavier heartbreak of a game.
Since then it’s just be a bad pattern
I remember be so excited to watch the Bahamas trip; I flew to Tucson with my family and kids to watch with some on my best buddies, only to be disappointed again, not by the loses but not with how we lost...
We haven’t had any games or win over this period to change trajectory or perception. Espn sure as hell didn’t help.
It’s the creeping feeling that Arizona’s relationship with Miller has run its course.
Edit: agree with everything posted above while I was typing my post.
ChooChooCat wrote:
My sole argument to this very good post is that Arizona doesn't need to recruit like Sean Miller has to have the utmost success. If anything personally you could argue that Miller's level of recruiting has been a hindrance for him and his program.
i think this is true and has been proven at other programs. coaches don’t all pull from the top 10 and have success on the floor and in March.
when things were right Miller was pulling from that pool and that had never happened at Arizona before and may not ever happen again.
however, the product on the floor can be just as good, and further to your point, perhaps better not exclusively recruiting and landing from that group.
the Arizona name will always get a good coach and get players, I agree with you ... sometimes I get stuck in the detail but I’m sure you understand I’m talking about that finite group.
