Bear Down Wildcats

zonagrad wrote:I can’t imagine the type of fan you were when Lute was getting bounced in ‘92, ‘93, ‘95, ‘99, ‘00, ‘04, and ‘07. Hell, let’s throw ‘89, ‘90, and ‘91 in there as well. Piss poor is the phrase I believe was used. Doing less with more. Sean Elliott, Damon Stoudamire, Chris Mills, Jason Terry, Michael Wright, Gilbert Arenas, Richard Jefferson, Andre Iguodala, etc... Lute really should’ve taken a pay cut with all that talent contributing to poor tournament performances.

Well I wasn't a fan until the 2002-2003 season. And to that point we had a solid history of 4 final 4s in the previous 15 seasons. Miller hasn't been to any, so comparing the two at this point is rather stupid.

The biggest difference is the game itself. It has changed do much. Lute would not have been to 5 final fours in his career if guys like Lester, Elliott, Damon and Khalid, Bibby and more would have been OAD’s.

Those elite 8 games are such crapshoots. Lute lost his last 2 I think. Miller has lost 4 times in his career, twice by like 2 points or less. Insane how a bounce here or there changes perception

azcat49 wrote:The biggest difference is the game itself. It has changed do much. Lute would not have been to 5 final fours in his career if guys like Lester, Elliott, Damon and Khalid, Bibby and more would have been OAD’s.

Those elite 8 games are such crapshoots. Lute lost his last 2 I think. Miller has lost 4 times in his career, twice by like 2 points or less. Insane how a bounce here or there changes perception

Well a bounce...or two....and three years of nuking our program into dust.

There’s a whole chunk of fanatical Arizona basketball fans that have had their fanaticism extinguished over that timeframe. And that’s not good.

SCCats wrote:

azcat49 wrote:The biggest difference is the game itself. It has changed do much. Lute would not have been to 5 final fours in his career if guys like Lester, Elliott, Damon and Khalid, Bibby and more would have been OAD’s.

Those elite 8 games are such crapshoots. Lute lost his last 2 I think. Miller has lost 4 times in his career, twice by like 2 points or less. Insane how a bounce here or there changes perception

Well a bounce...or two....and three years of nuking our program into dust.

There’s a whole chunk of fanatical Arizona basketball fans that have had their fanaticism extinguished over that timeframe. And that’s not good.

U of A has such shit fans in football and now in basketball

PHXCATS wrote:

SCCats wrote:

azcat49 wrote:The biggest difference is the game itself. It has changed do much. Lute would not have been to 5 final fours in his career if guys like Lester, Elliott, Damon and Khalid, Bibby and more would have been OAD’s.

Those elite 8 games are such crapshoots. Lute lost his last 2 I think. Miller has lost 4 times in his career, twice by like 2 points or less. Insane how a bounce here or there changes perception

Well a bounce...or two....and three years of nuking our program into dust.

There’s a whole chunk of fanatical Arizona basketball fans that have had their fanaticism extinguished over that timeframe. And that’s not good.

U of A has such shit fans in football and now in basketball

What a loser

Machina bringing balance to the Wildcat universe.

I lived and breathed everything about Arizona sports from 2002 to about 2015 or so. Now I can barely muster the effort to watch. I have only been to 4 basketball/baseball/football games in the last 3 years. It's hard to care anymore with the shit that happening in the world around us.

At almost 56 years old I'm as enthusiastic about Arizona sports as I ever was.

ASUHATER! wrote:

zonagrad wrote:I can’t imagine the type of fan you were when Lute was getting bounced in ‘92, ‘93, ‘95, ‘99, ‘00, ‘04, and ‘07. Hell, let’s throw ‘89, ‘90, and ‘91 in there as well. Piss poor is the phrase I believe was used. Doing less with more. Sean Elliott, Damon Stoudamire, Chris Mills, Jason Terry, Michael Wright, Gilbert Arenas, Richard Jefferson, Andre Iguodala, etc... Lute really should’ve taken a pay cut with all that talent contributing to poor tournament performances.

Well I wasn't a fan until the 2002-2003 season. And to that point we had a solid history of 4 final 4s in the previous 15 seasons. Miller hasn't been to any, so comparing the two at this point is rather stupid.

The fact that you weren’t a fan until ‘02-‘03 tells me all I need to know: that you have no perspective and are just like the other entitled fans.

After the 1993 season, Lute had a history of exactly ONE final four. Just one. And Arizona was a 1 seed in ‘89 that lost in the Sweet 16 and a 2 seed in ‘91 when we lost to a lower seed in the Sweet 16. Heck, you could make the argument that our ‘88 Final Four team underachieved in the tournament. They were that good. So in Lute’s first ten seasons, Arizona had a final four team that should’ve beat Oklahoma and a bunch of other talented teams that underachieved. And believe me, there were entitled fans back then, too. They said Lute wasn’t competitive enough. Teams weren’t tough enough. Couldn’t win big games, etc....

There was a lot of NBA talent on those teams. Kerr, Tolbert, Elliott, Buechler, Williams, Mills, Reeves, etc...

It’s obvious Miller is changing his approach. And had the FBI/ ESPN crap had not happened, last season we would’ve had more depth and would have not needed three freshmen to be our best players and carry us.

The roster is stabilizing. We’re going to be consistently good again. And really, if you’ve been a fan a long time, that’s all you can ask for. Good things will happen.

I guess it's pretty simple for me - as long as CSM keeps piecing together teams that have a chance to make a run in March I am supporting him. I think there's only been a few teams in his tenure that we knew weren't going to be able to compete. Shit, even this upcoming recruiting class he's pulled a rabbit out of his ass when we thought we were fucked.

As long as he is producing quality teams that have the ability to compete for Pac and NCAA Championships then I am happy. BTW, who is out there that we can guarantee will come to Arizona and do a better job? If we've had losing years 2-3 years in a row and not made the Tourney then I would understand the bitching. That's not the case.

And if you haven't learned you need some breaks by now - no matter how talented you are - to get to the Final Four then you will continue to be miserable no matter who the U of A coach is.

BTFD.

Hell, UNC had a losing record last year. I know Roy has had much better tourney success than Miller but that just shows how much of a crap shoot cbb is these days.

zonagrad wrote:And had the FBI/ ESPN crap had not happened, last season we would’ve had more depth and would have not needed three freshmen to be our best players and carry us.

Gonna have to disagree with you on this one considering what his 2018 recruiting class was supposed to be and what happened to each and every one of those players. Our depth would've remained a ridiculous issue for us last season regardless.

2 of the 3 have pretty much shown that was based on their ability. One Miller always said was the best shooter on the team in practice but it was never matched in games.

ChooChooCat wrote:

zonagrad wrote:And had the FBI/ ESPN crap had not happened, last season we would’ve had more depth and would have not needed three freshmen to be our best players and carry us.

Gonna have to disagree with you on this one considering what his 2018 recruiting class was supposed to be and what happened to each and every one of those players. Our depth would've remained a ridiculous issue for us last season regardless.

You have no idea, none, knowing what our recruiting class would’ve looked like. A month ago you had no idea what this year’s class was going to be like. No, our recruiting took a major hit thanks to Book Richardson and ESPN. We were jumping for joy just to have Devonaire Doutrive commit. That’s how dire things were at the time.

zonagrad wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:

zonagrad wrote:And had the FBI/ ESPN crap had not happened, last season we would’ve had more depth and would have not needed three freshmen to be our best players and carry us.

Gonna have to disagree with you on this one considering what his 2018 recruiting class was supposed to be and what happened to each and every one of those players. Our depth would've remained a ridiculous issue for us last season regardless.

You have no idea, none, knowing what our recruiting class would’ve looked like. A month ago you had no idea what this year’s class was going to be like. No, our recruiting took a majority hit thanks to Book Richardson and ESPN. We were jumping for joy just to have Devonaire Doutrive commit. That’s how dire things were at the time.

Ummm I do. Our situation was much different then and clarity was much easier.

It 100% would've been:

Jahvon Quinerly
Brandon Williams
Nassir Little
Shareef O'Neal
Bol Bol

2 of the 4 were one and dones.
2 of the 4 had major medical issues and one was an awful fit for Arizona.
Maybe Quinerly would've been better at Arizona than Villanova and maybe he would've stuck around for his sophomore year, but then again maybe not.

Seriously man don't tell me what I do know and what I don't know. I'm very upfront about both.

EastCoastCat wrote:I guess it's pretty simple for me - as long as CSM keeps piecing together teams that have a chance to make a run in March I am supporting him. I think there's only been a few teams in his tenure that we knew weren't going to be able to compete. Shit, even this upcoming recruiting class he's pulled a rabbit out of his ass when we thought we were fucked.

As long as he is producing quality teams that have the ability to compete for Pac and NCAA Championships then I am happy. BTW, who is out there that we can guarantee will come to Arizona and do a better job? If we've had losing years 2-3 years in a row and not made the Tourney then I would understand the bitching. That's not the case.

And if you haven't learned you need some breaks by now - no matter how talented you are - to get to the Final Four then you will continue to be miserable no matter who the U of A coach is.

BTFD.

This is where I am .... right now.

But I’m a fickle bitch and reserve the right to change my mind and demand he be fired when the team I expect to be a fringe tourney team next year loses a bunch of games that renders them a fringe tourney team.

Did I mention that I’m a fickle bitch?

zonagrad wrote:

ASUHATER! wrote:

zonagrad wrote:I can’t imagine the type of fan you were when Lute was getting bounced in ‘92, ‘93, ‘95, ‘99, ‘00, ‘04, and ‘07. Hell, let’s throw ‘89, ‘90, and ‘91 in there as well. Piss poor is the phrase I believe was used. Doing less with more. Sean Elliott, Damon Stoudamire, Chris Mills, Jason Terry, Michael Wright, Gilbert Arenas, Richard Jefferson, Andre Iguodala, etc... Lute really should’ve taken a pay cut with all that talent contributing to poor tournament performances.

Well I wasn't a fan until the 2002-2003 season. And to that point we had a solid history of 4 final 4s in the previous 15 seasons. Miller hasn't been to any, so comparing the two at this point is rather stupid.

The fact that you weren’t a fan until ‘02-‘03 tells me all I need to know: that you have no perspective and are just like the other entitled fans.

After the 1993 season, Lute had a history of exactly ONE final four. Just one. And Arizona was a 1 seed in ‘89 that lost in the Sweet 16 and a 2 seed in ‘91 when we lost to a lower seed in the Sweet 16. Heck, you could make the argument that our ‘88 Final Four team underachieved in the tournament. They were that good. So in Lute’s first ten seasons, Arizona had a final four team that should’ve beat Oklahoma and a bunch of other talented teams that underachieved. And believe me, there were entitled fans back then, too. They said Lute wasn’t competitive enough. Teams weren’t tough enough. Couldn’t win big games, etc....

There was a lot of NBA talent on those teams. Kerr, Tolbert, Elliott, Buechler, Williams, Mills, Reeves, etc...

It’s obvious Miller is changing his approach. And had the FBI/ ESPN crap had not happened, last season we would’ve had more depth and would have not needed three freshmen to be our best players and carry us.

The roster is stabilizing. We’re going to be consistently good again. And really, if you’ve been a fan a long time, that’s all you can ask for. Good things will happen.

You sound like machina. Stop with the ridiculous good fan/bad fan argument. Doesn't matter when you started being a fan for fucks sake. Everyone cares just as much. Stop.

ChooChooCat wrote:

zonagrad wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:

zonagrad wrote:And had the FBI/ ESPN crap had not happened, last season we would’ve had more depth and would have not needed three freshmen to be our best players and carry us.

Gonna have to disagree with you on this one considering what his 2018 recruiting class was supposed to be and what happened to each and every one of those players. Our depth would've remained a ridiculous issue for us last season regardless.

You have no idea, none, knowing what our recruiting class would’ve looked like. A month ago you had no idea what this year’s class was going to be like. No, our recruiting took a majority hit thanks to Book Richardson and ESPN. We were jumping for joy just to have Devonaire Doutrive commit. That’s how dire things were at the time.

Fair enough. Would it be fair to say our ‘19 class would also been different and possibly provided additional depth? The ‘17-‘18 cloud impacted everything. Wouldn’t you agree?
Ummm I do. Our situation was much different then and clarity was much easier.

It 100% would've been:

Jahvon Quinerly
Brandon Williams
Nassir Little
Shareef O'Neal
Bol Bol

2 of the 4 were one and dones.
2 of the 4 had major medical issues and one was an awful fit for Arizona.
Maybe Quinerly would've been better at Arizona than Villanova and maybe he would've stuck around for his sophomore year, but then again maybe not.

Seriously man don't tell me what I do know and what I don't know. I'm very upfront about both.

Fair enough, you’re closer to the recruiting news than others. But it’s hard to believe that our entire’18 class was set in stone in September ‘17 when the FBI story broke. It seems unusual that a class would be that “set in stone” in September. But again, you’re closer to knowing more details.

Chicat wrote:

EastCoastCat wrote:I guess it's pretty simple for me - as long as CSM keeps piecing together teams that have a chance to make a run in March I am supporting him. I think there's only been a few teams in his tenure that we knew weren't going to be able to compete. Shit, even this upcoming recruiting class he's pulled a rabbit out of his ass when we thought we were fucked.

As long as he is producing quality teams that have the ability to compete for Pac and NCAA Championships then I am happy. BTW, who is out there that we can guarantee will come to Arizona and do a better job? If we've had losing years 2-3 years in a row and not made the Tourney then I would understand the bitching. That's not the case.

And if you haven't learned you need some breaks by now - no matter how talented you are - to get to the Final Four then you will continue to be miserable no matter who the U of A coach is.

BTFD.

This is where I am .... right now.

But I’m a fickle bitch and reserve the right to change my mind and demand he be fired when the team I expect to be a fringe tourney team next year loses a bunch of games that renders them a fringe tourney team.

Did I mention that I’m a fickle bitch?

I think being a fickle bitch and having a temporary knee-jerk, pissed-off reaction because one cares so much about Az basketball is one in the same in my book.

It's really simple.

I've always liked Miller a lot. Up until the point that I stopped liking him. Then I really stopped liking him. That is until I started liking him again. The I really started to like him, as I always have. Right up until the point that I stopped.

I don't know how much more clear I can be.

Alieberman wrote:It's really simple.

I've always liked Miller a lot. Up until the point that I stopped liking him. Then I really stopped liking him. That is until I started liking him again. The I really started to like him, as I always have. Right up until the point that I stopped.

I don't know how much more clear I can be.

Fickle bitch...

ChooChooCat wrote:

zonagrad wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:

zonagrad wrote:And had the FBI/ ESPN crap had not happened, last season we would’ve had more depth and would have not needed three freshmen to be our best players and carry us.

Gonna have to disagree with you on this one considering what his 2018 recruiting class was supposed to be and what happened to each and every one of those players. Our depth would've remained a ridiculous issue for us last season regardless.

You have no idea, none, knowing what our recruiting class would’ve looked like. A month ago you had no idea what this year’s class was going to be like. No, our recruiting took a majority hit thanks to Book Richardson and ESPN. We were jumping for joy just to have Devonaire Doutrive commit. That’s how dire things were at the time.

Ummm I do. Our situation was much different then and clarity was much easier.

It 100% would've been:

Jahvon Quinerly
Brandon Williams
Nassir Little
Shareef O'Neal
Bol Bol

2 of the 4 were one and dones.
2 of the 4 had major medical issues and one was an awful fit for Arizona.
Maybe Quinerly would've been better at Arizona than Villanova and maybe he would've stuck around for his sophomore year, but then again maybe not.

Seriously man don't tell me what I do know and what I don't know. I'm very upfront about both.

I think this is called speculation. You don't know for sure what any recruit will do till he signs on the dotted line.

TheCat wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:

zonagrad wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:

zonagrad wrote:And had the FBI/ ESPN crap had not happened, last season we would’ve had more depth and would have not needed three freshmen to be our best players and carry us.

Gonna have to disagree with you on this one considering what his 2018 recruiting class was supposed to be and what happened to each and every one of those players. Our depth would've remained a ridiculous issue for us last season regardless.

You have no idea, none, knowing what our recruiting class would’ve looked like. A month ago you had no idea what this year’s class was going to be like. No, our recruiting took a majority hit thanks to Book Richardson and ESPN. We were jumping for joy just to have Devonaire Doutrive commit. That’s how dire things were at the time.

Ummm I do. Our situation was much different then and clarity was much easier.

It 100% would've been:

Jahvon Quinerly
Brandon Williams
Nassir Little
Shareef O'Neal
Bol Bol

2 of the 4 were one and dones.
2 of the 4 had major medical issues and one was an awful fit for Arizona.
Maybe Quinerly would've been better at Arizona than Villanova and maybe he would've stuck around for his sophomore year, but then again maybe not.

Seriously man don't tell me what I do know and what I don't know. I'm very upfront about both.

I think this is called speculation. You don't know for sure what any recruit will do till he signs on the dotted line.

Choo is right on that class. Hell JQ, Bwill and O’Neal were already onboard and Bol Bol and Little were set to commit literally that week than the FBI shit went down.

TheCat wrote:[
I think this is called speculation. You don't know for sure what any recruit will do till he signs on the dotted line.

3 were verbally committed to us and the other two were set to do so.

Is there a world where if the FBI stuff never happens none of them sign on the dotted line? Sure, maybe in one of the other multiverses that exists that could have happened. In the reality we live in though that wasn't going to happen. What a sanctimonious garbage post my man, truly, well done.

zonagrad wrote:
Fair enough, you’re closer to the recruiting news than others. But it’s hard to believe that our entire’18 class was set in stone in September ‘17 when the FBI story broke. It seems unusual that a class would be that “set in stone” in September. But again, you’re closer to knowing more details.

Every recruiting year is different. Maybe Arizona would've added another player to the class or maybe O'Neal was always destined to decommit in the Spring, but Arizona was set to sign all 5 of those players in November '17. If Sean Miller had his way his recruiting classes would always be done in the fall, so he can focus on the next recruiting class ASAP.

ChooChooCat wrote:

zonagrad wrote:
Fair enough, you’re closer to the recruiting news than others. But it’s hard to believe that our entire’18 class was set in stone in September ‘17 when the FBI story broke. It seems unusual that a class would be that “set in stone” in September. But again, you’re closer to knowing more details.

Every recruiting year is different. Maybe Arizona would've added another player to the class or maybe O'Neal was always destined to decommit in the Spring, but Arizona was set to sign all 5 of those players in November '17. If Sean Miller had his way his recruiting classes would always be done in the fall, so he can focus on the next recruiting class ASAP.

Not doubting the accuracy of this at all. Like I said, I think you've proven to everyone that you have access to more recruiting info than most so I'm inclined to agree with you as opposed to my view that a class is far from complete even if it's September. So consider my mind changed. Would you agree that although the high turnover of the roster would've continued because of early departures and injuries -- the quality of the roster was negatively impacted?

The departures of Akot, Doutrive and Barcello in the last 16 months underscores the volatility of a college roster. Had the FBI/ESPN stuff never happened, Arizona's roster for 2019 would've been much more stable than the one Miller put on the court for the '18-'19 season. And will we ever know the damage done to the '19 recruiting haul? Although we pulled in three OADs, could Miller have also pulled some other players if not for the FBI story? I'm guessing you're in a better position to evaluate that than me.

I'm not sure anyone can argue that the FBI story didn't severely hamper Miller's recruiting efforts from '18 onward -- and to what degree. How can you quantify or qualify the damage?

zonagrad wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:

zonagrad wrote:
Fair enough, you’re closer to the recruiting news than others. But it’s hard to believe that our entire’18 class was set in stone in September ‘17 when the FBI story broke. It seems unusual that a class would be that “set in stone” in September. But again, you’re closer to knowing more details.

Every recruiting year is different. Maybe Arizona would've added another player to the class or maybe O'Neal was always destined to decommit in the Spring, but Arizona was set to sign all 5 of those players in November '17. If Sean Miller had his way his recruiting classes would always be done in the fall, so he can focus on the next recruiting class ASAP.

Not doubting the accuracy of this at all. Like I said, I think you've proven to everyone that you have access to more recruiting info than most so I'm inclined to agree with you as opposed to my view that a class is far from complete even if it's September. So consider my mind changed. Would you agree that although the high turnover of the roster would've continued because of early departures and injuries -- the quality of the roster was negatively impacted?

The departures of Akot, Doutrive and Barcello in the last 16 months underscores the volatility of a college roster. Had the FBI/ESPN stuff never happened, Arizona's roster for 2019 would've been much more stable than the one Miller put on the court for the '18-'19 season. And will we ever know the damage done to the '19 recruiting haul? Although we pulled in three OADs, could Miller have also pulled some other players if not for the FBI story? I'm guessing you're in a better position to evaluate that than me.

I'm not sure anyone can argue that the FBI story didn't severely hamper Miller's recruiting efforts from '18 onward -- and to what degree. How can you quantify or qualify the damage?

Yeah that was kind of my original point that regardless of the FBI stuff, just based off what our recruiting class would be, we would very likely be in the same situation regardless in regards to high roster turnover. The results would've been much better for the '18-'19 season, but we still would've been replacing two one and dones (just like we did with Coleman/Luther), and I highly doubt O'Neal would've been around the following year. Williams still would've had his knee issues. It would've just been a matter of would Quinerly's experience been better for him at AZ than it was at Nova. Oddly enough the FBI probably impacted our recruiting of James Akinjo and Jordan Brown the most in 2018 and obviously that didn't last.

As far as the '19 haul goes, Arizona landed it's 3 top targets, took a guy it wanted in Koloko, and also landed Armstrong. We also landed our two top transfer targets in Brown and Baker with no problems. I don't think not having the FBI hanging over our head would've changed that recruiting class at all. It did impact the '20 class though, but hard to say if we would've landed the guys it ultimately eliminated us with (only a handful that I'm aware of). The west coast talent didn't line up well for us this year for all sorts of reasons.

So ultimately the answer is the FBI has impacted our recruiting and in turn our current situation a bit, but overall there have been other factors out control that have impacted us much greater, and in the end that 2018 class regardless wouldn't have led us to a better situation.

On another note Kansas just landed a top 50 2021 guy and they have 5 Level 1 infractions to their name currently, so yeah...FBI stuff a bit overrated.

ChooChooCat wrote:

zonagrad wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:

zonagrad wrote:
Fair enough, you’re closer to the recruiting news than others. But it’s hard to believe that our entire’18 class was set in stone in September ‘17 when the FBI story broke. It seems unusual that a class would be that “set in stone” in September. But again, you’re closer to knowing more details.

Every recruiting year is different. Maybe Arizona would've added another player to the class or maybe O'Neal was always destined to decommit in the Spring, but Arizona was set to sign all 5 of those players in November '17. If Sean Miller had his way his recruiting classes would always be done in the fall, so he can focus on the next recruiting class ASAP.

Not doubting the accuracy of this at all. Like I said, I think you've proven to everyone that you have access to more recruiting info than most so I'm inclined to agree with you as opposed to my view that a class is far from complete even if it's September. So consider my mind changed. Would you agree that although the high turnover of the roster would've continued because of early departures and injuries -- the quality of the roster was negatively impacted?

The departures of Akot, Doutrive and Barcello in the last 16 months underscores the volatility of a college roster. Had the FBI/ESPN stuff never happened, Arizona's roster for 2019 would've been much more stable than the one Miller put on the court for the '18-'19 season. And will we ever know the damage done to the '19 recruiting haul? Although we pulled in three OADs, could Miller have also pulled some other players if not for the FBI story? I'm guessing you're in a better position to evaluate that than me.

I'm not sure anyone can argue that the FBI story didn't severely hamper Miller's recruiting efforts from '18 onward -- and to what degree. How can you quantify or qualify the damage?

Yeah that was kind of my original point that regardless of the FBI stuff, just based off what our recruiting class would be, we would very likely be in the same situation regardless in regards to high roster turnover. The results would've been much better for the '18-'19 season, but we still would've been replacing two one and dones (just like we did with Coleman/Luther), and I highly doubt O'Neal would've been around the following year. Williams still would've had his knee issues. It would've just been a matter of would Quinerly's experience been better for him at AZ than it was at Nova. Oddly enough the FBI probably impacted our recruiting of James Akinjo and Jordan Brown the most in 2018 and obviously that didn't last.

As far as the '19 haul goes, Arizona landed it's 3 top targets, took a guy it wanted in Koloko, and also landed Armstrong. We also landed our two top transfer targets in Brown and Baker with no problems. I don't think not having the FBI hanging over our head would've changed that recruiting class at all. It did impact the '20 class though, but hard to say if we would've landed the guys it ultimately eliminated us with (only a handful that I'm aware of). The west coast talent didn't line up well for us this year for all sorts of reasons.

So ultimately the answer is the FBI has impacted our recruiting and in turn our current situation a bit, but overall there have been other factors out control that have impacted us much greater, and in the end that 2018 class regardless wouldn't have led us to a better situation.

On another note Kansas just landed a top 50 2021 guy and they have 5 Level 1 infractions to their name currently, so yeah...FBI stuff a bit overrated.

Actually, the FBI stuff wasn't overrated because the media narrative was that Miller personally was captured on an FBI tape admitting paying Ayton and other infractions. The presumption was that he was going to be fired and never coach again. That is likely a big reason why that recruiting class blew up. Kansas is facing serious allegations, but no one has suggested Bill Self is getting fired, so recruits that want to play for Self are not running for the hills because there is a presumption he is going to fight this and remain head coach regardless.

With respect to the '18 class, based on the previous classes and the momentum of the program at that time, it is more than likely Miller would have landed one or two of those targets other targets (i.e. Little and Bol) that had not already verbally committed. IIRC, many insiders thought the Little commitment was right around the corner right before the FBI report came out.

midnightx wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:

zonagrad wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:

zonagrad wrote:
Fair enough, you’re closer to the recruiting news than others. But it’s hard to believe that our entire’18 class was set in stone in September ‘17 when the FBI story broke. It seems unusual that a class would be that “set in stone” in September. But again, you’re closer to knowing more details.

Every recruiting year is different. Maybe Arizona would've added another player to the class or maybe O'Neal was always destined to decommit in the Spring, but Arizona was set to sign all 5 of those players in November '17. If Sean Miller had his way his recruiting classes would always be done in the fall, so he can focus on the next recruiting class ASAP.

Not doubting the accuracy of this at all. Like I said, I think you've proven to everyone that you have access to more recruiting info than most so I'm inclined to agree with you as opposed to my view that a class is far from complete even if it's September. So consider my mind changed. Would you agree that although the high turnover of the roster would've continued because of early departures and injuries -- the quality of the roster was negatively impacted?

The departures of Akot, Doutrive and Barcello in the last 16 months underscores the volatility of a college roster. Had the FBI/ESPN stuff never happened, Arizona's roster for 2019 would've been much more stable than the one Miller put on the court for the '18-'19 season. And will we ever know the damage done to the '19 recruiting haul? Although we pulled in three OADs, could Miller have also pulled some other players if not for the FBI story? I'm guessing you're in a better position to evaluate that than me.

I'm not sure anyone can argue that the FBI story didn't severely hamper Miller's recruiting efforts from '18 onward -- and to what degree. How can you quantify or qualify the damage?

Yeah that was kind of my original point that regardless of the FBI stuff, just based off what our recruiting class would be, we would very likely be in the same situation regardless in regards to high roster turnover. The results would've been much better for the '18-'19 season, but we still would've been replacing two one and dones (just like we did with Coleman/Luther), and I highly doubt O'Neal would've been around the following year. Williams still would've had his knee issues. It would've just been a matter of would Quinerly's experience been better for him at AZ than it was at Nova. Oddly enough the FBI probably impacted our recruiting of James Akinjo and Jordan Brown the most in 2018 and obviously that didn't last.

As far as the '19 haul goes, Arizona landed it's 3 top targets, took a guy it wanted in Koloko, and also landed Armstrong. We also landed our two top transfer targets in Brown and Baker with no problems. I don't think not having the FBI hanging over our head would've changed that recruiting class at all. It did impact the '20 class though, but hard to say if we would've landed the guys it ultimately eliminated us with (only a handful that I'm aware of). The west coast talent didn't line up well for us this year for all sorts of reasons.

So ultimately the answer is the FBI has impacted our recruiting and in turn our current situation a bit, but overall there have been other factors out control that have impacted us much greater, and in the end that 2018 class regardless wouldn't have led us to a better situation.

On another note Kansas just landed a top 50 2021 guy and they have 5 Level 1 infractions to their name currently, so yeah...FBI stuff a bit overrated.

Actually, the FBI stuff wasn't overrated because the media narrative was that Miller personally was captured on an FBI tape admitting paying Ayton and other infractions. The presumption was that he was going to be fired and never coach again. That is likely a big reason why that recruiting class blew up. Kansas is facing serious allegations, but no one has suggested Bill Self is getting fired, so recruits that want to play for Self are not running for the hills because there is a presumption he is going to fight this and remain head coach regardless.

With respect to the '18 class, based on the previous classes and the momentum of the program at that time, it is more than likely Miller would have landed one or two of those targets other targets (i.e. Little and Bol) that had not already verbally committed. IIRC, many insiders thought the Little commitment was right around the corner right before the FBI report came out.

It was a big deal in regards to how our 2018 class ended up yes, but it hasn't been a big deal since for our recruiting honestly, and as I pointed out the 2018 class we were going to land wasn't going to help Arizona be in a better place than it currently is now.

The fbi investigation was never that big of a deal. All other schools are doing the same as they were before or better. Maybe some bullshit local AZ people thought it meant Miller was dirty but nationally that was no where near the case. The espn report is what changed the narrative on Miller

ChooChooCat wrote:

TheCat wrote:[
I think this is called speculation. You don't know for sure what any recruit will do till he signs on the dotted line.

3 were verbally committed to us and the other two were set to do so.

Is there a world where if the FBI stuff never happens none of them sign on the dotted line? Sure, maybe in one of the other multiverses that exists that could have happened. In the reality we live in though that wasn't going to happen. What a sanctimonious garbage post my man, truly, well done.

Put away the Kreskin hat. Self importance isn't a becoming quality on anyone. Little was a toss up between us and Miami and BolBol was always enamored with Oregon but you don't see me saying he was a slam dunk for anyone. What you did was pure speculation on two recruits. The two highest rated ones.

TheCat wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:

TheCat wrote:[
I think this is called speculation. You don't know for sure what any recruit will do till he signs on the dotted line.

3 were verbally committed to us and the other two were set to do so.

Is there a world where if the FBI stuff never happens none of them sign on the dotted line? Sure, maybe in one of the other multiverses that exists that could have happened. In the reality we live in though that wasn't going to happen. What a sanctimonious garbage post my man, truly, well done.

Put away the Kreskin hat. Self importance isn't a becoming quality on anyone. Little was a toss up between us and Miami and BolBol was always enamored with Oregon but you don't see me saying he was a slam dunk for anyone. What you did was pure speculation on two recruits. The two highest rated ones.

I couldn't give a shit less what you say quite frankly, you're a walking troll with a boner for me. Go away.

RondaeShimmy wrote:

Wow such speculation or something.

Nice choice of picture to include with that tweet.

Not sure a good spot to put this, but Sean is 2-0 so he's part of it.

prh wrote:

Not sure a good spot to put this, but Sean is 2-0 so he's part of it.

Seems like a good place to put it. And I note that Miller's 2-0 record vs. Coach K is the reason the Cats are on that list....

Holy shit Holy Cross. Well done. Did they beat up Duke during K’s first few season?

zonagrad wrote:Holy shit Holy Cross. Well done. Did they beat up Duke during K’s first few season?

4-0 against him at Army and 0-2 against Duke

ChooChooCat wrote:

TheCat wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:

TheCat wrote:[
I think this is called speculation. You don't know for sure what any recruit will do till he signs on the dotted line.

3 were verbally committed to us and the other two were set to do so.

Is there a world where if the FBI stuff never happens none of them sign on the dotted line? Sure, maybe in one of the other multiverses that exists that could have happened. In the reality we live in though that wasn't going to happen. What a sanctimonious garbage post my man, truly, well done.

Put away the Kreskin hat. Self importance isn't a becoming quality on anyone. Little was a toss up between us and Miami and BolBol was always enamored with Oregon but you don't see me saying he was a slam dunk for anyone. What you did was pure speculation on two recruits. The two highest rated ones.

I couldn't give a shit less what you say quite frankly, you're a walking troll with a boner for me. Go away.

I guess you are always right and never wrong on anything right. Like this class was going to be shit. Grow up man you have no more idea than I do what is in kids heads....of course I discounted your 100% right all the time. So you ready to admit you had absolutely no idea this class was in work or should I just take it ...you knew. I thought you said you were done and leaving or is that just something you pull out your butt like saying we were screwed on this class...….I got your boner hangin.

Lol

What reason do we have to believe this stuff is in kids' heads? Is that how this works, TheCat?

The 17-18 year-old players themselves think through the positives and negatives of different programs, and feel their feelings, and they make their minds and change their minds and ultimately say, "You know? I think I want to play for Dana Altman and be an Oregon Duck!"

But not before ChooChoo says, "Heh. I'm going sit down and type about how this kid is probably going to either Kentucky or USC, but Arizona is still in it and Oregon is O-U-T out!"?

And then the phone rings, and Sean Miller picks it up full of hope before the kid says, "I really like you, coach! And you really almost had me with that 'Experience Room'! Especially that close-up of Rawle dunking with that screwed up facial expression. But then I went to Eugene and Dana Altman wrought a serious, concerned smile, and gently put my mom's hand on his thigh, and it just felt like home. I'm sorry and I'll regard you fondly!" How wrong Choo got that one.

I honestly don't know. You tell me. Is that basically how it goes?

Or are there several conversations between many people who are stakeholders in the final decision, and some people are privy to those discussions, so that they can start to narrow down probabilities, and maybe they pass some sense of those probabilities to Choo, and different prospects have degrees of input in the final decision?

I'm just thinking this through, and I have no idea which of these scenarios are more or less accurate. Does one ring truer than the other?

Watching the Villanova game.
Bile-Ass did a little Q & A with Jay Wright. One question was “if you were coming out of high school right now, what coach would you want to play for?”
Wright’s answer: Sean Miller

That's gonna leave a mark.

Recorded in 2015. I doubt his answers would be the same now.

I didn’t catch that.
Was trying to ignore Bile-Ass as much as I could.

Bilas asked Wright who he would want his son to play for other than himself. Answer: Sean Miller

Sean Miller has (I believe) one year on his contract remaining. There has been no extension (for obvious reasons). Arizona is taking a 1-year post-season ban in hopes that will be the extent of its major penalties. So what's next for retaining or parting ways with Miller? Does the school wait until the arbitration is settled and then decide to extend Miller or part ways?

Without a contract extension, recruiting becomes more difficult. However, further NCAA penalties would set the program back further. Would any new information about Miller's actions surface that isn't already known to the university?

Is Miller still supported by the boosters that matter? Clearly, brining Jason Terry on board didn't hurt. Do the boosters support bringing Sean back?