Moderators: UAdevil, JMarkJohns
“Hope” is the thing with feathers -Longhorned wrote:It never ceases to amaze me that people expect rational discussion on a literally fanatical message board.
I'll put out another idea. Miller gets less "blame" because any potential failings in the PG department get weighed against his notable successes in recruiting stellar talent elsewhere. Even if you say our PG recruiting is less than stellar, his overall recruting is stellar. PG looks worse because it gets measured against other positions.gumby wrote:It can be both, but it doesn't happen.Spaceman Spiff wrote:Why can't it be both? I'm sure this is what Parker's camp wanted just as much as Miller.gumby wrote:Of course, Parker can be critiqued. So can the coach. And this is definitely more on him than the Cartwrights (cue "Bonanza" theme). He is a multi-million dollar coach in charge of an elite program. A grown-ass man well into his fifth decade.
That's who is 100 percent responsible.
He's gotten no elite point guards from the high school ranks. The one five-star he landed had more red flags than the Bay of Pigs. He's gotten elite players in every other position. He's gotten next to no flack for it in his own thread -- and hardly anywhere else either. It's Parker this and Parker that.
Our best PG was a transfer. If that's what it takes, do it again. But for now, Miller has to be rated a failure in recruiting/staffing that position, especially if Parker is as bad as described (year 8 of Miller's tenure). But, for some reason, whatever PG we have (other than TJ) takes the brunt of the criticism. Like they're supposed to decline to enter the games? "I'm not worthy!"
So, sure, no player is immune from criticism, but make it proportional to responsibility. Follow the money. That's where the power is. That's where the decisions are made.
Leads you right to Sean Miller. Don't be shy.
I disagree that a history of Momo, Josiah, Lyons, TJ and PJC is failure on Miller's part. Momo was way over who most coaches pull in that situation. Josiah had talent, just not the mindset. Lyons was a backup plan driven by Josiah's flameout. TJ was a win. PJC has been dissected enough in this thread and others.
I also think it's unrealistic to think fans can see a player not play well and expect them not to jump the player. Players get criticized when they disappoint. Heck, how many people consistently get on Dusan for being slow?
PG's are a much smaller market to begin with. Hitting one 5 star, two 4 stars and two good transfers is not exactly failing.
I disagree with your assessment of PGs. Even given all the particulars, it's been a relative weakness. And certainly doesn't measure up to what we've had in the past.
That said, I appreciate that you stayed on topic. I wasn't calling for his head, just calling attention to a particular flaw (in my opinion). And you addressed that.
I do like the Seth Davis column and the indication of humility. I like Miller -- a lot.
But my original point stands. If he and PJC entered into some blood oath, the lion's share of the blame lies with the guy running the program.
Even if you believe it can be both -- criticism -- it isn't. Not here, anyway. PJC gets it a lot more.
Yea thats just silly. I spaced out UNC's recent success in tournaments weeks back and when I looked at their wikipedia page I was like, oh damn, I forgot about those tournament runs. Even spacing that out, IMO you consider UNC one of the 5 best programs because of their consistency in the top 25, top 10, etc. I may space out final fours or even titles, but I remember who I see at or near the tops of polls week in and week out over the span of five to 10 seasons. I mean, UCONN has two titles in the last 6 years, but are they a powerhouse right now?Longhorned wrote:Machina's point was that nobody outside a program's fan base knows how many conference championships they've won, but rather how many Final Fours and national titles they have. It's a stripping down of context to the bare bones of an attempt to malign Miller.Spaceman Spiff wrote:What's the square root of this apartment?Puerco wrote:Coaching facts for fans with short attention spans?Spaceman Spiff wrote:No. I like college basketball, but I cannot recite conference championships of 5 different coaches.PHXCATS wrote:
Without looking it up can you tell me how many regular season conference titles these coaches have?
Roy Williams
Coach K
Coach Cal
Dean Smith
Lute
I don't exactly see what that has to do with it, either.
Machina, quick! How many Final Fours do each of those coaches have? Stupid question is stupid.
But yeah, the square root of that apartment. Do its inhabitants eat tuna? I rest my case.
You've been hearing your regular amount of Machina actually...Bear Down Vegas wrote: Second...where did Machina go? Not because I actually want to hear from PHXCats but more to underline the point that when things get interesting & debatable on both sides some posters seem to ignore or disappear for my favorite parts of threads.
I mean it was pretty much destined to happen once we scheduled a home and home with them.Spaceman Spiff wrote:I'm not sure UConn is a top 25 program right now, let alone a powerhouse.
Can we schedule one with Wisconsin please?ChooChooCat wrote:I mean it was pretty much destined to happen once we scheduled a home and home with them.Spaceman Spiff wrote:I'm not sure UConn is a top 25 program right now, let alone a powerhouse.
I thought we had one in 13-14 and 14-15?UAEebs86 wrote:Can we schedule one with Wisconsin please?ChooChooCat wrote:I mean it was pretty much destined to happen once we scheduled a home and home with them.Spaceman Spiff wrote:I'm not sure UConn is a top 25 program right now, let alone a powerhouse.
It would make little sense to take a job at Louisville or even UNC at this point. Arizona is a top ten program. It isn't as if there will be a significant recruiting advantage at either school over Arizona. Miller already is in on many of the top national recruits, who is to say that he will be more successful recruiting at UNC? Additionally, who wants to replace Roy Williams or Rick Pitino, two coaches with multiple titles and loads of final fours? Miller already replaced an icon, why would he want more pressure than he already has? Roy left Kansas because he was a UNC guy, but most top-tier coaches are not going to make lateral moves. Miller has no ties to those programs. If he doesn't win a title at Arizona with the 5-star talent he has, why would he win elsewhere with essentially the same talent? It makes no sense.zonagrad wrote:If Miller leaves Arizona, he's leaving behind a whole lot of equity.
If he takes a job at UNC or L'Ville, as some suggest, how much equity will he have with the fanbase there? How patient will they be? They'll want immediate results that Miller delivered at Arizona.
So the question is, why would Miller risk a great situation?
I guess the argument could be along the lines of Roy Williams leaving KU for UNC. But Roy had everything in place to win titles at KU. It just didn't happen. And Bill Self proved that shortly after Roy left.
The longer Miller stays at Arizona, the more he'll become attached to the school and the fans and boosters. A risky move to leave when you don't need to take on risk.
Is this confirmed?UAdevil wrote:You've been hearing your regular amount of Machina actually...Bear Down Vegas wrote: Second...where did Machina go? Not because I actually want to hear from PHXCats but more to underline the point that when things get interesting & debatable on both sides some posters seem to ignore or disappear for my favorite parts of threads.
Regardless of any point here UNC is a major threat when that time comes and that is not conjecture at all.midnightx wrote:It would make little sense to take a job at Louisville or even UNC at this point. Arizona is a top ten program. It isn't as if there will be a significant recruiting advantage at either school over Arizona. Miller already is in on many of the top national recruits, who is to say that he will be more successful recruiting at UNC? Additionally, who wants to replace Roy Williams or Rick Pitino, two coaches with multiple titles and loads of final fours? Miller already replaced an icon, why would he want more pressure than he already has? Roy left Kansas because he was a UNC guy, but most top-tier coaches are not going to make lateral moves. Miller has no ties to those programs. If he doesn't win a title at Arizona with the 5-star talent he has, why would he win elsewhere with essentially the same talent? It makes no sense.zonagrad wrote:If Miller leaves Arizona, he's leaving behind a whole lot of equity.
If he takes a job at UNC or L'Ville, as some suggest, how much equity will he have with the fanbase there? How patient will they be? They'll want immediate results that Miller delivered at Arizona.
So the question is, why would Miller risk a great situation?
I guess the argument could be along the lines of Roy Williams leaving KU for UNC. But Roy had everything in place to win titles at KU. It just didn't happen. And Bill Self proved that shortly after Roy left.
The longer Miller stays at Arizona, the more he'll become attached to the school and the fans and boosters. A risky move to leave when you don't need to take on risk.
I like the way you think. I hope Miller thinks the same. UNC is a really attractive job and I would feel so much better if we crossed the bridge into Final Four/National Championship territory to cement it with Miller.midnightx wrote:It would make little sense to take a job at Louisville or even UNC at this point. Arizona is a top ten program. It isn't as if there will be a significant recruiting advantage at either school over Arizona. Miller already is in on many of the top national recruits, who is to say that he will be more successful recruiting at UNC? Additionally, who wants to replace Roy Williams or Rick Pitino, two coaches with multiple titles and loads of final fours? Miller already replaced an icon, why would he want more pressure than he already has? Roy left Kansas because he was a UNC guy, but most top-tier coaches are not going to make lateral moves. Miller has no ties to those programs. If he doesn't win a title at Arizona with the 5-star talent he has, why would he win elsewhere with essentially the same talent? It makes no sense.zonagrad wrote:If Miller leaves Arizona, he's leaving behind a whole lot of equity.
If he takes a job at UNC or L'Ville, as some suggest, how much equity will he have with the fanbase there? How patient will they be? They'll want immediate results that Miller delivered at Arizona.
So the question is, why would Miller risk a great situation?
I guess the argument could be along the lines of Roy Williams leaving KU for UNC. But Roy had everything in place to win titles at KU. It just didn't happen. And Bill Self proved that shortly after Roy left.
The longer Miller stays at Arizona, the more he'll become attached to the school and the fans and boosters. A risky move to leave when you don't need to take on risk.
Time for a return. He'll re-up the "culture" complaint with Comanche leaving.Bear Down Vegas wrote:Couple things...
Gumby & Spaceman's discussion is a great example of why I check in here as often as I can. & enjoy it. I learn, I agree, I disagree & it's all based around something that we clearly all love.
Second...where did Machina go? Not because I actually want to hear from PHXCats but more to underline the point that when things get interesting & debatable on both sides some posters seem to ignore or disappear for my favorite parts of threads.
The culture problemgumby wrote:Time for a return. He'll re-up the "culture" complaint with Comanche leaving.Bear Down Vegas wrote:Couple things...
Gumby & Spaceman's discussion is a great example of why I check in here as often as I can. & enjoy it. I learn, I agree, I disagree & it's all based around something that we clearly all love.
Second...where did Machina go? Not because I actually want to hear from PHXCats but more to underline the point that when things get interesting & debatable on both sides some posters seem to ignore or disappear for my favorite parts of threads.
To be fair on the football side, I think the number was still considered to be good. The rest of the conference had smokin' scores, and we had more than our share of transfers. But the score was still good enough to get RichRod a $25,000 bonus.gumby wrote:Hoops team middle of the Pac in APR.
http://tucson.com/sports/arizonawildcat ... &id=201408" target="_blank
Football, dead last. But that's gonna happen when you land all those four and five star ... oh, wait.
Main Event wrote:
Amen.Spaceman Spiff wrote:One takeaway from this offseason should be that CBB nowadays is a crazy, unsteady landscape and that we are insanely lucky to have Sean Miller guiding us through the new world.
84Cat wrote:Main Event wrote:
Agreed rg....I was ecstatic with how CSM was able to guide us through ALL the adversity of last year and still win us the P12 Season and Tourney along with a Sweet 16. Obviously I was pissed at the S16 underperformance BUT I was being greedy too.rgdeuce wrote:Yeah, nuts what Miller does considering the adversity we have had with roster turnover. Only Calipari has been able to do it as long and consistently as Miller, and coach K more recently.
If it isn't what people want to hear, it is what I think. People act like there's a magical quality that allows you to reach the Final Four.rgdeuce wrote:It's not what people want to hear, but if you keep banging on the door with talented squads, eventually you are going to break it down.
This has been my mantra for years. I said the same even with Lute...that magic one game is fantastic and glorious and a rush and so much fun, but it is one game. It is like how people focused on Lute's first round blunders...most teams failures are not making the tournament, ours were losing as a favorite in the first round. The achievement is unnecessarily overlooked to point to the one game failure. I'd rather bang my head against the Final Four every year than make it once in a South Carolina style then miss the tournament and be a nobody for years. Yeah, I'd rather just make it. I still say 2014 was the one year we SHOULD have made it...the rest, we had a good enough squad to make it, but there was somebody better ahead of us, or hotter (UConn).Spaceman Spiff wrote:If it isn't what people want to hear, it is what I think. People act like there's a magical quality that allows you to reach the Final Four.rgdeuce wrote:It's not what people want to hear, but if you keep banging on the door with talented squads, eventually you are going to break it down.
The truth is that some teams just catch a heater (South Carolina). Some teams have been hanging around the Elite Eight and break through (Gonzaga, Oregon). Some teams are very talented and just power through (UNC). The same qualities that got Miller to Elite Eights will be the qualities that drive a Final Four when it happens.
Getting marriedJefe wrote:Miller and Romar spotted on a plane to Vegas earlier today. Hmmmm
What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas unless you have premium.CalStateTempe wrote:Who/what are the going for?
Vegas tourneys aren't until July.Jefe wrote:Vegas tourney this week? Or just a hub for another destination? Bol Bol?
Both of them going must mean its a big time recruit
ChooChooCat wrote:Vegas tourneys aren't until July.Jefe wrote:Vegas tourney this week? Or just a hub for another destination? Bol Bol?
Both of them going must mean its a big time recruit
I honestly don't know of any big recruits currently in Vegas or at least any that we're currently on.
Maybe they're getting on a connected flight out of LV or maybe they found Ajay Thakore's "dead body" and really felt the urge to take a piss on it?
Fully agree with you on this EV...except that '97 we really did earn it beating those 3 #1 seeds. I'm sure that, like the rest of the country, we put too much emphasis on the NCAA Tourney.....takes a lot of luck as well as talent to usually win it.EVCat wrote:This has been my mantra for years. I said the same even with Lute...that magic one game is fantastic and glorious and a rush and so much fun, but it is one game. It is like how people focused on Lute's first round blunders...most teams failures are not making the tournament, ours were losing as a favorite in the first round. The achievement is unnecessarily overlooked to point to the one game failure. I'd rather bang my head against the Final Four every year than make it once in a South Carolina style then miss the tournament and be a nobody for years. Yeah, I'd rather just make it. I still say 2014 was the one year we SHOULD have made it...the rest, we had a good enough squad to make it, but there was somebody better ahead of us, or hotter (UConn).Spaceman Spiff wrote:If it isn't what people want to hear, it is what I think. People act like there's a magical quality that allows you to reach the Final Four.rgdeuce wrote:It's not what people want to hear, but if you keep banging on the door with talented squads, eventually you are going to break it down.
The truth is that some teams just catch a heater (South Carolina). Some teams have been hanging around the Elite Eight and break through (Gonzaga, Oregon). Some teams are very talented and just power through (UNC). The same qualities that got Miller to Elite Eights will be the qualities that drive a Final Four when it happens.
This. The best coaches consistently put their teams in a position to make FF runs.rgdeuce wrote:It's not what people want to hear, but if you keep banging on the door with talented squads, eventually you are going to break it down.
Funny rg, was just thinking the exact same thing....especially with Rawle looking hard at leaving (which I was convinced he was staying but only just testing the waters), Chance jumping ship too early (now, it looks like he was academically screwed if he stayed - my conjecture at this point), and with Bowen still flying about, etc.rgdeuce wrote:Thats two straight years where many were in a panic and Miller ends up with essentially a top 3 class. The guys a witch. Not a bad consolation prize after a disappointing tourney run and the drama surrounding who is coming back.
Awesome podcast Jefe, thanks much for posting this. I rarely do podcasts but this was a really cool one to listen to. Bear Down.Jefe wrote:Coach and Allonzo talked with Seth Greenberg. Coach thought Rawle was gone and Chance was a shock. Kobi and his family told him he was 1 and done from the get go
http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=19461567" target="_blank
Out of curiosity, why were you disappointed? A couple potenial early entries? I mean we had a. Top 5 class coming in with a couple more openings and a number of high end options to fill them.Bangkok Wildcat wrote:Funny rg, was just thinking the exact same thing....especially with Rawle looking hard at leaving (which I was convinced he was staying but only just testing the waters), Chance jumping ship too early (now, it looks like he was academically screwed if he stayed - my conjecture at this point), and with Bowen still flying about, etc.rgdeuce wrote:Thats two straight years where many were in a panic and Miller ends up with essentially a top 3 class. The guys a witch. Not a bad consolation prize after a disappointing tourney run and the drama surrounding who is coming back.
I was a bit disappointed a couple of weeks ago and now a 180 degree turn and stunned at CSM's Witchery yet again. For the 1,000th time, we are so damned lucky to have him....regardless of the huge FF Monkey on his back, he's performed amazingly well for Arizona. If he leaves, we will really, really regret it.
My major concern is that how much stress the crazy recruiting and kids jumping early places on him. I wonder what % of his time is spent on recruiting vs coaching? Anyone care to guess? I have no idea but wouldn't be surprised if it was 50% or over.
I'll admit I'm spoiled, especially in recruiting, thanks to CSMPuerco wrote:Out of curiosity, why were you disappointed? A couple potenial early entries? I mean we had a. Top 5 class coming in with a couple more openings and a number of high end options to fill them.Bangkok Wildcat wrote:Funny rg, was just thinking the exact same thing....especially with Rawle looking hard at leaving (which I was convinced he was staying but only just testing the waters), Chance jumping ship too early (now, it looks like he was academically screwed if he stayed - my conjecture at this point), and with Bowen still flying about, etc.rgdeuce wrote:Thats two straight years where many were in a panic and Miller ends up with essentially a top 3 class. The guys a witch. Not a bad consolation prize after a disappointing tourney run and the drama surrounding who is coming back.
I was a bit disappointed a couple of weeks ago and now a 180 degree turn and stunned at CSM's Witchery yet again. For the 1,000th time, we are so damned lucky to have him....regardless of the huge FF Monkey on his back, he's performed amazingly well for Arizona. If he leaves, we will really, really regret it.
My major concern is that how much stress the crazy recruiting and kids jumping early places on him. I wonder what % of his time is spent on recruiting vs coaching? Anyone care to guess? I have no idea but wouldn't be surprised if it was 50% or over.
In that situation if you're disappointed, then you're clearly spoiled.
.
I dont see how Miller would go to Ohio State. While facilities would probably be an upgrade and so many resources would be available it isn't nearly as good of a job or team as Arizona. I also don't see any dominoes falling to where Miller would leave.Chicat wrote:Thad Matta holding an afternoon press conference to address his future at Ohio State.
Commence sphincter puckering...
Rumor on twitter is that he'll retire after NEXT season. Probably allows him to name his successor. My sphincter will unpucker if that's the case.PHXCATS wrote:I dont see how Miller would go to Ohio State. While facilities would probably be an upgrade and so many resources would be available it isn't nearly as good of a job or team as Arizona. I also don't see any dominoes falling to where Miller would leave.Chicat wrote:Thad Matta holding an afternoon press conference to address his future at Ohio State.
Commence sphincter puckering...
