Sean Miller

phxcat23 · Post by **phxcat23** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:39 pm

NYCat wrote:
NYCat wrote:

Lawyers of both Arizona head coach Sean Miller and the University of Arizona spent Tuesday in deep negotiations regarding Miller's future with the school, sources told 247Sports. By the end of Tuesday, the sides had yet to reach an amicable agreement regarding options for Miller to return to the sideline. Miller missed practice yet again on Tuesday.

Negotiations have continued into Wednesday, and as of this report he's not expected to be at practice today, sources told 247Sports.

Miller probably wants to sue the shit out of ESPN, but the University is too much of a bunch of pansies and doesn't want to get on board.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:39 pm

azcat49 wrote:lifetime contract

They should authorize a bonus for Ayton. He's been great this year.

BE4RDOWN21 · Post by **BE4RDOWN21** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:39 pm

https://247sports.com/Bolt/Arizona-bask ... -115669506" target="_blank

ramcat · Post by **ramcat** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:40 pm

Below is reply of letter I sent to ABOR.

Dear Mr. Brooke:

Thank you for contacting the Arizona Board of Regents to express your concerns about media coverage surrounding the investigation of the University of Arizona men’s basketball program.

Arizona Board of Regents Chair Bill Ridenour released a statement this past weekend regarding UA basketball, in which he states that “We must do everything we can to ensure that our programs are of the highest caliber as we must also protect the rights of all involved and respect due process for employees.”

The board appreciates the feedback it receives from the public.

Your message will be shared with the board.

Best,

Paula Gates | Manager of Constituent Communications
602-229-2517 | Paula.Gates@azregents.edu" target="_blank" target="_blank
2020 N. Central Avenue, #230 | Phoenix, AZ 85004 | http://www.azregents.edu" target="_blank

CalStateTempe · Post by **CalStateTempe** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:43 pm

Wow, I step away and we get some news...

Now we get to parse Legal mumbo jumbo for 24 hrs!

Go cats! Bear down!

I didn’t think the ABOR signed multi year contracts.

CalStateTempe · Post by **CalStateTempe** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:44 pm

phxcat23 wrote:
NYCat wrote:
NYCat wrote:

Lawyers of both Arizona head coach Sean Miller and the University of Arizona spent Tuesday in deep negotiations regarding Miller's future with the school, sources told 247Sports. By the end of Tuesday, the sides had yet to reach an amicable agreement regarding options for Miller to return to the sideline. Miller missed practice yet again on Tuesday.

Negotiations have continued into Wednesday, and as of this report he's not expected to be at practice today, sources told 247Sports.
Miller probably wants to sue the shit out of ESPN, but the University is too much of a bunch of pansies and doesn't want to get on board.

Totally but they should cause we gonna be nuked soon.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:44 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:
BE4RDOWN21 wrote:
jigsaw wrote:Board of Regents meeting tomorrow. Notice includes this, "The board will convene in executive session pursuant to A.R.S. § 38-431.03 (A) (1), (3) and (4) for legal advice and discussion regarding University of Arizona men’s basketball and the multiple-year employment contract for head men’s basketball coach."
He's done.

"...discussion regarding University of Arizona men’s basketball and the multiple-year employment contract for head men’s basketball coach."

They are probably looking to see the financial ramifications of terminating his contract
A.R.S 38-431.03(a)(1): "Discussion or consideration of employment, assignment, appointment, promotion, demotion, dismissal, salaries, disciplining or resignation of a public officer, appointee or employee of any public body....."

(a)(3): "Discussion or consultation for legal advice with the attorney or attorneys of the public body."

(a)(4): Discussion or consultation with the public body in order to consider its position and instruct its attorneys regarding the public body's position regarding contracts that are the subject of negotiations, in pending or contemplated litigation or in settlement discussions conducted in order to avoid or resolve litigation."

Both good and bad options covered in all that.
Funny, I posted that link right above.

If they put in the cite to a4 for a reason, that worries me. If it's just an all options list, the rest is pretty blah. Just about authority for a meeting.

Just tells me theres gonna be a lot of lawyers involved in order to cross their Ts and dot their Is for whatever decision that will be made.

azgreg · Post by **azgreg** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:44 pm

jigsaw · Post by **jigsaw** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:44 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:
BE4RDOWN21 wrote:
jigsaw wrote:Board of Regents meeting tomorrow. Notice includes this, "The board will convene in executive session pursuant to A.R.S. § 38-431.03 (A) (1), (3) and (4) for legal advice and discussion regarding University of Arizona men’s basketball and the multiple-year employment contract for head men’s basketball coach."
He's done.

"...discussion regarding University of Arizona men’s basketball and the multiple-year employment contract for head men’s basketball coach."

They are probably looking to see the financial ramifications of terminating his contract
A.R.S 38-431.03(a)(1): "Discussion or consideration of employment, assignment, appointment, promotion, demotion, dismissal, salaries, disciplining or resignation of a public officer, appointee or employee of any public body....."

(a)(3): "Discussion or consultation for legal advice with the attorney or attorneys of the public body."

(a)(4): Discussion or consultation with the public body in order to consider its position and instruct its attorneys regarding the public body's position regarding contracts that are the subject of negotiations, in pending or contemplated litigation or in settlement discussions conducted in order to avoid or resolve litigation."

Both good and bad options covered in all that.
Funny, I posted that link right above.

If they put in the cite to a4 for a reason, that worries me. If it's just an all options list, the rest is pretty blah. Just about authority for a meeting.

That citation was not by mistake. The executive session discussion will be to consider a proposed agreement between the University and its employee to terminate the contract. I would expect a press release later today.

NYCat · Post by **NYCat** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:46 pm

My guess is Miller wants to be fired to get all the money

billk78 · Post by **billk78** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:47 pm

Is it possible the lawyers are discussing a restructuring of the language in the contract? Something that would cover the U of A and allow for less to be paid to Miller is they were to fire him for cause? Perhaps the University knows the ESPN report is BS but does want to protect itself in case anything legit does come out from all of the ongoing investigations. So discussions like "we want you to stay and coach right now, but we also want to reword some of that contract due to the book incident, BS espn reports, and ongoing investigations in the NCAA?

phxcat23 · Post by **phxcat23** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:47 pm

From 247 article:
"Sources with knowledge of the conversations that took place on the wiretaps have maintained to 247Sports that the actual content of the tapes would exonerate Arizona's embattled coach from ESPN's report. Those tapes may never be released as they are under a federal seal."

Whatever their sources are, if they say these tapes supposedly exonerate Miller, then let the man coach out the year, and go after ESPN and all those that are trying to take him down.

In re UofA · Post by **In re UofA** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:48 pm

There is a big difference between negotiating the contract, and negotiating his return. If it’s the former, like the release suggests, it’s a harbinger of what is to come.

phxcat23 · Post by **phxcat23** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:49 pm

billk78 wrote:Is it possible the lawyers are discussing a restructuring of the language in the contract? Something that would cover the U of A and allow for less to be paid to Miller is they were to fire him for cause? Perhaps the University knows the ESPN report is BS but does want to protect itself in case anything legit does come out from all of the ongoing investigations. So discussions like "we want you to stay and coach right now, but we also want to reword some of that contract due to the book incident, BS espn reports, and ongoing investigations in the NCAA?

Could be possible...and possibly the reason why they are "negotiating" in order to settle on a figure?

BE4RDOWN21 · Post by **BE4RDOWN21** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:49 pm

billk78 wrote:Is it possible the lawyers are discussing a restructuring of the language in the contract? Something that would cover the U of A and allow for less to be paid to Miller is they were to fire him for cause? Perhaps the University knows the ESPN report is BS but does want to protect itself in case anything legit does come out from all of the ongoing investigations. So discussions like "we want you to stay and coach right now, but we also want to reword some of that contract due to the book incident, BS espn reports, and ongoing investigations in the NCAA?

I do like this thought, but unfortunately, I don't think we are that lucky

BearDown89 · Post by **BearDown89** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:50 pm

The ABOR meeting agenda certainly sounds like the hammer dropping, but I suppose it could still go either way. They're simply documenting that the powers that be have undertaken all proper due diligence regardless of the decision . . .

billk78 · Post by **billk78** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:50 pm

phxcat23 wrote:
billk78 wrote:Is it possible the lawyers are discussing a restructuring of the language in the contract? Something that would cover the U of A and allow for less to be paid to Miller is they were to fire him for cause? Perhaps the University knows the ESPN report is BS but does want to protect itself in case anything legit does come out from all of the ongoing investigations. So discussions like "we want you to stay and coach right now, but we also want to reword some of that contract due to the book incident, BS espn reports, and ongoing investigations in the NCAA?
Could be possible...and possibly the reason why they are "negotiating" in order to settle on a figure?

Yes, negotiating a clause in the contract essentially.

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:52 pm

NYCat wrote:

Negotiate his fate = Adios Coach Miller

97cats · Post by **97cats** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:52 pm

there is one concern right now, and its legitimate -- if Arizona lets Sean Miller coach the rest of the season and into the NCAA Tournament, if there are other grenades, as many have said there are, they will surely be deployed during this period, especially if AZ makes a deep run in the NCAA's or dare i even say make the Final Four.

the fall-out from that may be too large to ever come back from, even if the contract were re-written, its future land mines that are becoming the issue.

Arizona has wanted Miller to finish the season, separate amicably, and hire a new coach and vision with as little fanfare as possible.

obvviouslt that plan and/or hope has changed and new directives have been given.

NYCat · Post by **NYCat** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:53 pm

azgreg wrote:

RiseAndFire · Post by **RiseAndFire** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:57 pm

So I spoke with a former UA coach lets call him "Moe Flasternack" who is still close to Miller and familiar with the talks - he tells me the delay is Miller is refusing to step aside because he wants a chance to finish the season out on HIS TERMS - with a loss to a double digit seed in the Elite Eight.

billk78 · Post by **billk78** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:57 pm

97cats wrote:there is one concern right now, and its legitimate -- if Arizona lets Sean Miller coach the rest of the season and into the NCAA Tournament, if there are other grenades, as many have said there are, they will surely be deployed during this period, especially if AZ makes a deep run in the NCAA's or dare i even say make the Final Four.

the fall-out from that may be too large to ever come back from, even if the contract were re-written, its future land mines that are becoming the issue.

Arizona has wanted Miller to finish the season, separate amicably, and hire a new coach and vision with as little fanfare as possible.

obvviouslt that plan and/or hope has changed and new directives have been given.

So get rid of Miller and self-sanction this year?
Would we basically lose all of our players next year and face a complete rebuild? Or would Romar stay on and be able to keep some guys around with us being somewhat competitive for a few years?

splitsecond · Post by **splitsecond** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:58 pm

Regent Heiler saying there are concerns about the validity of the ESPN report. There is a tiny sliver of hope left.

In re UofA · Post by **In re UofA** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:00 pm

97cats wrote:there is one concern right now, and its legitimate -- if Arizona lets Sean Miller coach the rest of the season and into the NCAA Tournament, if there are other grenades, as many have said there are, they will surely be deployed during this period, especially if AZ makes a deep run in the NCAA's or dare i even say make the Final Four.

the fall-out from that may be too large to ever come back from, even if the contract were re-written, its future land mines that are becoming the issue.

Arizona has wanted Miller to finish the season, separate amicably, and hire a new coach and vision with as little fanfare as possible.

obvviouslt that plan and/or hope has changed and new directives have been given.

Honestly, what potential grenade is wose than what has already been alleged? Maybe just a loss of deniability/hard evidence, but I think the nature of CBB is that all teams have that risk right now.

CalStateTempe · Post by **CalStateTempe** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:00 pm

Bomb the village to save the village.

Fire the coach to save the program.

Wow. What. A . Decision.

Give Heeke a trip to Cancun after this is all done regardless of outcome. He’s earned it.

billk78 · Post by **billk78** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:00 pm

My petsitter has a neighbor who is second cousins with a guy who works at the Arizona bookstore. He ran into an Arizona player....I'll just say his last name rhymes with "Fear"....and he may or may not have written on a piece of paper something that rhymes with "tired" in regards to CSM.

btfd16 · Post by **btfd16** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:02 pm

billk78 wrote:My petsitter has a neighbor who is second cousins with a guy who works at the Arizona bookstore. He ran into an Arizona player....I'll just say his last name rhymes with "Fear"....and he may or may not have written on a piece of paper something that rhymes with "tired" in regards to CSM.

Hired?! Woohoo

Post by **UAdevil** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:02 pm

RiseAndFire wrote:So I spoke with a former UA coach lets call him "Moe Flasternack" who is still close to Miller and familiar with the talks - he tells me the delay is Miller is refusing to step aside because he wants a chance to finish the season out on HIS TERMS - with a loss to a double digit seed in the Elite Eight.

billk78 · Post by **billk78** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:03 pm

btfd16 wrote:
billk78 wrote:My petsitter has a neighbor who is second cousins with a guy who works at the Arizona bookstore. He ran into an Arizona player....I'll just say his last name rhymes with "Fear"....and he may or may not have written on a piece of paper something that rhymes with "tired" in regards to CSM.
Hired?! Woohoo

i'm just going off of what possible maybe friends of a "source" told me. I never mentioned anything about Arizona Basketball.

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:04 pm

UAdevil wrote:
RiseAndFire wrote:So I spoke with a former UA coach lets call him "Moe Flasternack" who is still close to Miller and familiar with the talks - he tells me the delay is Miller is refusing to step aside because he wants a chance to finish the season out on HIS TERMS - with a loss to a double digit seed in the Elite Eight.

RiseAndFail has cemented his troll status.

CatHoops · Post by **CatHoops** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:04 pm

The doctor is holding up the show. Tell "jansen" to fuck off and get the presser started

cats101 · Post by **cats101** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:04 pm

Chicat wrote:
UAdevil wrote:
RiseAndFire wrote:So I spoke with a former UA coach lets call him "Moe Flasternack" who is still close to Miller and familiar with the talks - he tells me the delay is Miller is refusing to step aside because he wants a chance to finish the season out on HIS TERMS - with a loss to a double digit seed in the Elite Eight.

RiseAndFail has cemented his troll status.

Yeah, not even funny when he does it.

billk78 · Post by **billk78** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:06 pm

I know us as fans (most) are supporting Miller and want to see him stick around for now. However, what do the people who matter ($$$$ donoars and boosters) think? Because that's what they're going to go by.

CatHoops · Post by **CatHoops** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:06 pm

#riseandfail
#geturfingerouttahansensbutt

Frybry02 · Post by **Frybry02** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:08 pm

97cats wrote:there is one concern right now, and its legitimate -- if Arizona lets Sean Miller coach the rest of the season and into the NCAA Tournament, if there are other grenades, as many have said there are, they will surely be deployed during this period, especially if AZ makes a deep run in the NCAA's or dare i even say make the Final Four.

the fall-out from that may be too large to ever come back from, even if the contract were re-written, its future land mines that are becoming the issue.

Arizona has wanted Miller to finish the season, separate amicably, and hire a new coach and vision with as little fanfare as possible.

obvviouslt that plan and/or hope has changed and new directives have been given.

Sadly, as evident by Friday’s fictional story, those grenades could be blanks and will do just as much damage.

CatFanOneMil · Post by **CatFanOneMil** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:10 pm

billk78 wrote:My petsitter has a neighbor who is second cousins with a guy who works at the Arizona bookstore. He ran into an Arizona player....I'll just say his last name rhymes with "Fear"....and he may or may not have written on a piece of paper something that rhymes with "tired" in regards to CSM.

</Greg Hansen shit quote off>

You forgot to use the Greg Hansen code I fixed it for you.

zonagrad · Post by **zonagrad** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:10 pm

Chicat wrote:
UAdevil wrote:
RiseAndFire wrote:So I spoke with a former UA coach lets call him "Moe Flasternack" who is still close to Miller and familiar with the talks - he tells me the delay is Miller is refusing to step aside because he wants a chance to finish the season out on HIS TERMS - with a loss to a double digit seed in the Elite Eight.

RiseAndFail has cemented his troll status.

No. He's just a douchebag. And he obviously gets off on the reactions.

CalStateTempe · Post by **CalStateTempe** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:10 pm

billk78 wrote:I know us as fans (most) are supporting Miller and want to see him stick around for now. However, what do the people who matter ($$$$ donoars and boosters) think? Because that's what they're going to go by.

Yes, reading what is being dropped the choice appears to be Miller or the program regarding what potential land mines are out there...or if you litigate, what parts of the well oiled marchine could be revealed thus crippling our program well into the future.

Jeez if those are the stakes I have to begrudgingly go with saving the program.

Glad I don’t have to make this decision.

UALoco · Post by **UALoco** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:11 pm

RiseAndFire wrote:So I spoke with a former UA coach lets call him "Moe Flasternack" who is still close to Miller and familiar with the talks - he tells me the delay is Miller is refusing to step aside because he wants a chance to finish the season out on HIS TERMS - with a loss to a double digit seed in the Elite Eight.

cold-blooded

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:12 pm

97cats wrote:there is one concern right now, and its legitimate -- if Arizona lets Sean Miller coach the rest of the season and into the NCAA Tournament, if there are other grenades, as many have said there are, they will surely be deployed during this period, especially if AZ makes a deep run in the NCAA's or dare i even say make the Final Four.

the fall-out from that may be too large to ever come back from, even if the contract were re-written, its future land mines that are becoming the issue.

Arizona has wanted Miller to finish the season, separate amicably, and hire a new coach and vision with as little fanfare as possible.

obvviouslt that plan and/or hope has changed and new directives have been given.

If there are grenades, I can't imagine they're not thrown regardless of our tourney coach. The higher our profile, the more impact allegations can have.

We'll see what emerges tomorrow. If Miller's ready to be done, I don't see why you can't just drop a release where he consents to paid leave to "avoid distraction to the team" as it enters the tourney. This keeps him out of the media eye and you work on the final parting.

azcat34 · Post by **azcat34** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:13 pm

ramcat wrote:Below is reply of letter I sent to ABOR.

Dear Mr. Brooke:

Thank you for contacting the Arizona Board of Regents to express your concerns about media coverage surrounding the investigation of the University of Arizona men’s basketball program.

Arizona Board of Regents Chair Bill Ridenour released a statement this past weekend regarding UA basketball, in which he states that “We must do everything we can to ensure that our programs are of the highest caliber as we must also protect the rights of all involved and respect due process for employees.”

The board appreciates the feedback it receives from the public.

Your message will be shared with the board.

Best,

Paula Gates | Manager of Constituent Communications
602-229-2517 | Paula.Gates@azregents.edu" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
2020 N. Central Avenue, #230 | Phoenix, AZ 85004 | http://www.azregents.edu" target="_blank

Seems like firing someone after a hit job article wouldn't respect the due process for employees.

But that's just me.

UALoco · Post by **UALoco** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:14 pm

billk78 wrote:I know us as fans (most) are supporting Miller and want to see him stick around for now. However, what do the people who matter ($$$$ donoars and boosters) think? Because that's what they're going to go by.

I think this is beyond boosters and sits with the lawyer's who will decide based on institutional risk.

BibbysTowelDude · Post by **BibbysTowelDude** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:15 pm

Trier for 30 tomorrow night.

btfd16 · Post by **btfd16** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:16 pm

Clear violation from Hansen regarding the Star's Code of Ethics. Not even getting in to the Sources section.

We strive for fairness and accuracy. Quick action is required in making corrections — both ethically and legally. All corrections requests, no matter how trivial, must be discussed with an editor. Every complaining party must get a response, regardless of whether we publish a correction or clarification. If we have given our readers a wrong impression about the reasonable view of a principal of a story, there may be need for a clarification. Every effort should be made to set the record straight, not just to correct errors of fact.

Fabrication Deceiving readers by fabrication is prohibited. Care must be taken in retelling events so that it is clear to the reader that the event was not witnessed firsthand. Fabrications in non-news stories, such as columns and features, must be obvious to the reader. Fabrication also includes representing yourself as other than representing the Star or StarNet.

phxcat23 · Post by **phxcat23** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:17 pm

BibbysTowelDude wrote:Trier for 30 tomorrow night.

Miller to lawyers: "I'm doing this my way....which means Trier is coming with me and we're going in for one last final ride boys"

DrWildcat · Post by **DrWildcat** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:17 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
97cats wrote:there is one concern right now, and its legitimate -- if Arizona lets Sean Miller coach the rest of the season and into the NCAA Tournament, if there are other grenades, as many have said there are, they will surely be deployed during this period, especially if AZ makes a deep run in the NCAA's or dare i even say make the Final Four.

the fall-out from that may be too large to ever come back from, even if the contract were re-written, its future land mines that are becoming the issue.

Arizona has wanted Miller to finish the season, separate amicably, and hire a new coach and vision with as little fanfare as possible.

obvviouslt that plan and/or hope has changed and new directives have been given.
If there are grenades, I can't imagine they're not thrown regardless of our tourney coach. The higher our profile, the more impact allegations can have.

We'll see what emerges tomorrow. If Miller's ready to be done, I don't see why you can't just drop a release where he consents to paid leave to "avoid distraction to the team" as it enters the tourney. This keeps him out of the media eye and you work on the final parting.

Probably just afraid of the optics if more came out and we allowed him to continue coaching.

Makes me feel like Miller is the biggest name thats going to come out of this whole thing if we can expect more tactical releasing of info during the tournament. Why not leak info on a bigger name if there is one?

BibbysTowelDude · Post by **BibbysTowelDude** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:19 pm

ABoR can’t and won’t be doing squat today or tomorrow.

NYCat · Post by **NYCat** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:20 pm

BibbysTowelDude wrote:ABoR can’t and won’t be doing squat today or tomorrow.

Yup, it's up to Robbins/Heeke

UALoco · Post by **UALoco** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:23 pm

ESPN: Miller cheated

FANS: Holy shit, we're fucked

UA: We have to do something

Ayton Camp: We didn't do shit and no one can prove we did

SM: I didn't do what ESPN says

ESPN: We made a bunch of mistakes but not taking it back

FANS: F**K ESPN, Keep Miller

UA: You totally innocent SM?

SM: I didn't do what ESPN says

UA: If we gonna keep you, we need to be protected

SM: I got nothing for you, but if you fire me, you'll be hearing from my lawyers

UA: What if we keep you, but edit the contract so UA is made whole if something does come out

SM: I can do that

UA: ABOR...Can we do that?

ABOR: I'll get back to you.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:24 pm

NYCat wrote:
BibbysTowelDude wrote:ABoR can’t and won’t be doing squat today or tomorrow.
Yup, it's up to Robbins/Heeke

Serious question:

Can ABOR formally impose firing on the institution? I know they can probably do that in a de facto matter, but if Arizona dug their heels in, who wins?

I don't know much about ABOR proceedings vs the institution, but I've wondered about this.

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