Bear Down Wildcats

You really, really need to seek therapy...

I have a solution for where we are going. Stop, take a deep breathe, hear that silence, toot, tooooooot, squeak. That last squeak is the current Pac 10, all looking at squeaking out of the orfice that is the artist formerly known as the Conference of Champions.


Oh and debating a subject for hours on end when none of us have any control over the outcome is interesting as well. A multitude of paragraphs over this dilemma even.


Debate club superstar, live large with 0 cars, in charge, coming up in the world, trusts everybody, especially his boy Larry Scott free.

AzCatFan2 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 11:27 am Anyone think Clemson and FSU have $120 million on hand to break their ACC contract? And this assumes the FSU lawyers are correct that $120 million is the number needed to break the contract. And doesn't include potential lengthy legal fees if the ACC decides to fight schools that wish to leave.

And game theory isn't pretzel logic. Oxford defines it as, "the branch of mathematics concerned with the analysis of strategies for dealing with competitive situations where the outcome of a participant's choice of action depends critically on the actions of other participants."

Our outcome may depend on the actions of other participants, and we would be wise to use game theory to determine other participants' (schools) potential moves in order to attempt to garner the best possible outcome for us. If we can work it out so we end up in a better situation than the BIG12, we should work towards that goal.

I also disagree our brand would be significantly damaged in five years, even if most of our games are streaming on Apple. It's not like anyone around the country saw any games broadcast on PAC-12 Network. Yet, our brand survived. And it's not like the BIG12 are getting premium placements on FOX or ESPN. A 9:00AM or 10:00 AM local start at UCF on FS1, or a 7:30 PM start streaming on ESPN+ at home against Kansas are things that could be in store for us if we go BIG12 now. How are those any better?

Are you asking does FSU and Clemson have the boosters along with the money from any new TV deal to make up for it? Yes. Plus there's no world where they would have to pay that full $120 million.

I mean we just saw Texas and Oklahoma pay $50 million each to leave the Big 12 early and they were supposed to pay double that.

You live in fantasy land. I live in reality.

Most of our games were not on Pac 12 Network. That's not an argument, I've debunked that bullshit from you 100000000 times over. You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. You are not a capable opponent. You are a jester.

AzCatFan2 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 11:27 am Yet, our brand survived.

Sure about that?

It's pretty clear that if the PAC sticks together without USC/UCLA it will just be the WAC again.

ChooChooCat wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:08 pm

AzCatFan2 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 11:27 am Anyone think Clemson and FSU have $120 million on hand to break their ACC contract? And this assumes the FSU lawyers are correct that $120 million is the number needed to break the contract. And doesn't include potential lengthy legal fees if the ACC decides to fight schools that wish to leave.

And game theory isn't pretzel logic. Oxford defines it as, "the branch of mathematics concerned with the analysis of strategies for dealing with competitive situations where the outcome of a participant's choice of action depends critically on the actions of other participants."

Our outcome may depend on the actions of other participants, and we would be wise to use game theory to determine other participants' (schools) potential moves in order to attempt to garner the best possible outcome for us. If we can work it out so we end up in a better situation than the BIG12, we should work towards that goal.

I also disagree our brand would be significantly damaged in five years, even if most of our games are streaming on Apple. It's not like anyone around the country saw any games broadcast on PAC-12 Network. Yet, our brand survived. And it's not like the BIG12 are getting premium placements on FOX or ESPN. A 9:00AM or 10:00 AM local start at UCF on FS1, or a 7:30 PM start streaming on ESPN+ at home against Kansas are things that could be in store for us if we go BIG12 now. How are those any better?

Are you asking does FSU and Clemson have the boosters along with the money from any new TV deal to make up for it? Yes. Plus there's no world where they would have to pay that full $120 million.

I mean we just saw Texas and Oklahoma pay $50 million each to leave the Big 12 early and they were supposed to pay double that.

You live in fantasy land. I live in reality.

Most of our games were not on Pac 12 Network. That's not an argument, I've debunked that bullshit from you 100000000 times over. You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. You are not a capable opponent. You are a jester.

The original OU/TX agreement to leave was $80 million each. It was negotiated down to $50 million to leave a year early. Interesting difference. The GOR was running out, but there was/is a separate agreement that BIG12 schools wouldn't leave for 99 years after signing. (https://www.si.com/college/2023/02/03/b ... -explainer) ACC GOR isn't running out until 2036, which is one reason why it is more difficult for ACC to exit.

As for games on the P12 Network, we had 7 out of 12 of our football games, and 13 out of 31 basketball games (and counting) on the P12 Network this year. You've debunked nothing.

And I wish people would stop putting words in my mouth in order to try and debunk me. I never stated we've had most of our games on the P12 Network. I've said we survived the P12 Network, and we'll survive any PAC that may come our way. And I doubt any new contract is going to be significantly worse than having over 45% of our football and basketball games on the P12 Network.

Our brand survived? Our brand is currently on life support. Five more years in the PAC is hospice.

CardiacCats97 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 1:31 pm Our brand survived? Our brand is currently on life support. Five more years in the PAC is hospice.

The brand was really strong when less than half a million people tuned in to see Arizona host an SEC school last September. It was outpaced by memorable games like Missouri-Kansas State, Louisville-UCF, and Ohio-Penn State.

AzCatFan2 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:56 pm

ChooChooCat wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:08 pm

AzCatFan2 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 11:27 am Anyone think Clemson and FSU have $120 million on hand to break their ACC contract? And this assumes the FSU lawyers are correct that $120 million is the number needed to break the contract. And doesn't include potential lengthy legal fees if the ACC decides to fight schools that wish to leave.

And game theory isn't pretzel logic. Oxford defines it as, "the branch of mathematics concerned with the analysis of strategies for dealing with competitive situations where the outcome of a participant's choice of action depends critically on the actions of other participants."

Our outcome may depend on the actions of other participants, and we would be wise to use game theory to determine other participants' (schools) potential moves in order to attempt to garner the best possible outcome for us. If we can work it out so we end up in a better situation than the BIG12, we should work towards that goal.

I also disagree our brand would be significantly damaged in five years, even if most of our games are streaming on Apple. It's not like anyone around the country saw any games broadcast on PAC-12 Network. Yet, our brand survived. And it's not like the BIG12 are getting premium placements on FOX or ESPN. A 9:00AM or 10:00 AM local start at UCF on FS1, or a 7:30 PM start streaming on ESPN+ at home against Kansas are things that could be in store for us if we go BIG12 now. How are those any better?

Are you asking does FSU and Clemson have the boosters along with the money from any new TV deal to make up for it? Yes. Plus there's no world where they would have to pay that full $120 million.

I mean we just saw Texas and Oklahoma pay $50 million each to leave the Big 12 early and they were supposed to pay double that.

You live in fantasy land. I live in reality.

Most of our games were not on Pac 12 Network. That's not an argument, I've debunked that bullshit from you 100000000 times over. You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. You are not a capable opponent. You are a jester.

The original OU/TX agreement to leave was $80 million each. It was negotiated down to $50 million to leave a year early. Interesting difference. The GOR was running out, but there was/is a separate agreement that BIG12 schools wouldn't leave for 99 years after signing. (https://www.si.com/college/2023/02/03/b ... -explainer) ACC GOR isn't running out until 2036, which is one reason why it is more difficult for ACC to exit.

As for games on the P12 Network, we had 7 out of 12 of our football games, and 13 out of 31 basketball games (and counting) on the P12 Network this year. You've debunked nothing.

And I wish people would stop putting words in my mouth in order to try and debunk me. I never stated we've had most of our games on the P12 Network. I've said we survived the P12 Network, and we'll survive any PAC that may come our way. And I doubt any new contract is going to be significantly worse than having over 45% of our football and basketball games on the P12 Network.

Yet the 99 years agreement sure didn't hurt Texas/OU financially now did it?

Look if there's a way out of that GOR, Clemson/FSU can afford to pay for it.

As for the P12 Network stuff, yeah we weren't great at football, so we were on the P12 Network a lot, now imagine a TV deal that is Amazon on Friday nights and one ESPN late night game and then the rest goes to Pac 12 Network streaming hell. How many games do you think last year's Arizona team would've been on national linear television? It would've been way less than 5. Also 13 out of 31 basketball games is less than 50%, which last I checked is less than a majority genius. It'll be 14 out of 32 on Thursday, and if we make it to the title game it'll be 14 out of 34. Hey....that's the majority of our games not on Pac 12 Network even if you add the football games. You don't have an argument. You have empty shallow words that don't form complete thoughts, because you have nothing. The entire Pac 12 Network argument is our situation for Tier 3 games will improve, which is good, but our situation with our Tier 1 and 2 games will be exponentially worse, so it doesn't even out. It's a dumb argument that only people on your side of the aisle are making, because you don't even know what's smart or dumb in regards to conference alignment.

I've seen JessieWildcat posts in the past and I'd rather converse with him on this topic than you. Stop posting already.

ChooChooCat wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 6:10 am

AzCatFan2 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:56 pm

ChooChooCat wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:08 pm

AzCatFan2 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 11:27 am Anyone think Clemson and FSU have $120 million on hand to break their ACC contract? And this assumes the FSU lawyers are correct that $120 million is the number needed to break the contract. And doesn't include potential lengthy legal fees if the ACC decides to fight schools that wish to leave.

And game theory isn't pretzel logic. Oxford defines it as, "the branch of mathematics concerned with the analysis of strategies for dealing with competitive situations where the outcome of a participant's choice of action depends critically on the actions of other participants."

Our outcome may depend on the actions of other participants, and we would be wise to use game theory to determine other participants' (schools) potential moves in order to attempt to garner the best possible outcome for us. If we can work it out so we end up in a better situation than the BIG12, we should work towards that goal.

I also disagree our brand would be significantly damaged in five years, even if most of our games are streaming on Apple. It's not like anyone around the country saw any games broadcast on PAC-12 Network. Yet, our brand survived. And it's not like the BIG12 are getting premium placements on FOX or ESPN. A 9:00AM or 10:00 AM local start at UCF on FS1, or a 7:30 PM start streaming on ESPN+ at home against Kansas are things that could be in store for us if we go BIG12 now. How are those any better?

Are you asking does FSU and Clemson have the boosters along with the money from any new TV deal to make up for it? Yes. Plus there's no world where they would have to pay that full $120 million.

I mean we just saw Texas and Oklahoma pay $50 million each to leave the Big 12 early and they were supposed to pay double that.

You live in fantasy land. I live in reality.

Most of our games were not on Pac 12 Network. That's not an argument, I've debunked that bullshit from you 100000000 times over. You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. You are not a capable opponent. You are a jester.

The original OU/TX agreement to leave was $80 million each. It was negotiated down to $50 million to leave a year early. Interesting difference. The GOR was running out, but there was/is a separate agreement that BIG12 schools wouldn't leave for 99 years after signing. (https://www.si.com/college/2023/02/03/b ... -explainer) ACC GOR isn't running out until 2036, which is one reason why it is more difficult for ACC to exit.

As for games on the P12 Network, we had 7 out of 12 of our football games, and 13 out of 31 basketball games (and counting) on the P12 Network this year. You've debunked nothing.

And I wish people would stop putting words in my mouth in order to try and debunk me. I never stated we've had most of our games on the P12 Network. I've said we survived the P12 Network, and we'll survive any PAC that may come our way. And I doubt any new contract is going to be significantly worse than having over 45% of our football and basketball games on the P12 Network.

Yet the 99 years agreement sure didn't hurt Texas/OU financially now did it?

Look if there's a way out of that GOR, Clemson/FSU can afford to pay for it.

As for the P12 Network stuff, yeah we weren't great at football, so we were on the P12 Network a lot, now imagine a TV deal that is Amazon on Friday nights and one ESPN late night game and then the rest goes to Pac 12 Network streaming hell. How many games do you think last year's Arizona team would've been on national linear television? It would've been way less than 5. Also 13 out of 31 basketball games is less than 50%, which last I checked is less than a majority genius. It'll be 14 out of 32 on Thursday, and if we make it to the title game it'll be 14 out of 34. Hey....that's the majority of our games not on Pac 12 Network even if you add the football games. You don't have an argument. You have empty shallow words that don't form complete thoughts, because you have nothing. The entire Pac 12 Network argument is our situation for Tier 3 games will improve, which is good, but our situation with our Tier 1 and 2 games will be exponentially worse, so it doesn't even out. It's a dumb argument that only people on your side of the aisle are making, because you don't even know what's smart or dumb in regards to conference alignment.

I've seen JessieWildcat posts in the past and I'd rather converse with him on this topic than you. Stop posting already.

If $50 million doesn't hurt, then you are already in a good position. It would hurt us. I would imagine $120 million would hurt FSU and Clemson. And even schools like Texas and OU bargained down to get the number they needed to pay down from $80 million to $50 million. TX and OU also had a different reality then FSU and Clemson are currently facing. TX and OU argued they didn't have a vote on the 4 former G5 schools joining the BIG12, and therefore, shouldn't be forced to face them. TX and OU also had an expiration date on their GOR quickly approaching. As of right now, the ACC isn't adding teams, and their GOR doesn't end for another 13 seasons. $120 million might get Clemson and FSU out of the ACC, but it may not get them out of the GOR contract. A point the former ESPN President made recently during an interview where he suggested the ACC and PAC should merge. (https://247sports.com/Article/Conferenc ... ard%20Show.) A link to the show is included, and the ACC/PAC discussion starts around the 35 minute mark.

As for TV ratings, I never stated we had the majority of our games on P12 Network. Just we had many of our games on P12, and our brand survived. Please stop putting words into my mouth. It only makes your counter argument weaker. I've never said things like the BIG12 would wait for us in perpetuity, nor am I PAC ride or die guy. I could care less about the PAC, as long as Arizona ended up in a good situation. I simply don't see fleeing to the BIG12 right now a good situation, nor do I believe it's the best we can possibly do.

Yes, our game against MSU didn't have high ratings. But I doubt a BIG12 Arizona versus MSU at 11:00 PM Eastern start on FS1 would rate any higher. In fact, I don't see any of our future BIG12 games rating significantly higher should we join right now. There aren't too many highly rated BIG12 games that don't include Texas or Oklahoma (https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/colleg ... v-ratings/). And the games currently on P12 Network (Tier 3), will be streaming on ESPN+ for BIG12 schools.

The BIG12 isn't an improvement over the PAC12. Maybe short term, depending on where the PAC contract lands. But long term, the PAC has better prospects, including a potential merge with the ACC. The short term pain isn't going to end our program; especially considering we don't have that far to fall when it comes to TV eyeballs/ratings. The same die-hards who watch a game that starts 8:00 PM local time (11:00 EST) on FS1 will stream the game on Apple or Amazon.

AzCatFan2 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 8:39 am The BIG12 isn't an improvement over the PAC12. Maybe short term, depending on where the PAC contract lands. But long term, the PAC has better prospects, including a potential merge with the ACC.

Reporting live from Cloud Cuckoo Land I can confirm it’s still raining delusion and lunacy.

CardiacCats97 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 9:06 am

AzCatFan2 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 8:39 am The BIG12 isn't an improvement over the PAC12. Maybe short term, depending on where the PAC contract lands. But long term, the PAC has better prospects, including a potential merge with the ACC.

Reporting live from Cloud Cuckoo Land I can confirm it’s still raining delusion and lunacy.

If a game is broadcast in Cloud Cuckoo Land and no one watches it does it make a digital sound?

Yeah that PAC/ACC merger is sure to come to fruition and pay all the school so much monies....oh wait....ooops

ACF2 isn’t going to stop guys. Might be best for everyone to put him on ignore en masse, so that we no longer have to be subjected to his lunacy. He/She is unable to be anything but the child screaming that their opinion is the only one that matters, and I for one am done in engaging with that handle, which I am partially convinced is a hack named either Wilner or Canzano.

ChooChooCat wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 6:10 am I've seen JessieWildcat posts in the past and I'd rather converse with him on this topic than you. Stop posting already.

Good call, and someone I had completely forgotten about.

dovecanyoncat wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 9:09 am

CardiacCats97 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 9:06 am

AzCatFan2 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 8:39 am The BIG12 isn't an improvement over the PAC12. Maybe short term, depending on where the PAC contract lands. But long term, the PAC has better prospects, including a potential merge with the ACC.

Reporting live from Cloud Cuckoo Land I can confirm it’s still raining delusion and lunacy.

If a game is broadcast in Cloud Cuckoo Land and no one watches it does it make a digital sound?

It sounds like a long low wet fart, but don’t worry because in five years we could be in the SEC or we could all be dead.

Or, we could go BIG12 now and find ourselves in no better situation than we are in now in five years. Now will the next five years be an improvement at all over the last ten. Take a look at the football ratings link. Show me BIG12 games with significantly better ratings that didn't involve Texas or Oklahoma. I also fail to see how a 9/10 AM local start at UCF on FSN1 followed by a 7:30 PM home game against Kansas on ESPN+ is an improvement. If this is our fate, so be it. But I believe we can do better.

But what do I know. I live in Cloud Cuckoo land because I bring links to back up my opinion, use game theory to try and predict what other schools, conferences, and TV networks might do, and have a contrarian opinion than the masses? And because I don't fall in line, people attack me on this board. They certainly don't try and show flaws in my logic. Better to call me names, I guess?

By the way, here's some more facts, from a Florida State site. Even if FSU could pay its way out of the ACC, the GOR, which is a separate contract, would mean FSU would still owe the ACC any money it made from the media. (https://www.on3.com/college/florida-sta ... c-big-ten/) Texas and OU paid the BIG12 to break away from the conference. But since their GOR ended 2025, they were free to start collecting SEC money with no more BIG12 ties. FSU and Clemson would not only have to pay to get out of the ACC, but would have to negotiate an additional out for the GOR.

As bad a spot the PAC is in, the ACC schools are in at least an equally awful position. If we can work out something that is mutually beneficial, we should at least explore the option. Or, fuck it all and just join the BIG12?

I'm sure AZCatFan will want to keep waiting, but what are the odds George pulls a rabbit out of his hat? This conference is dead.

When their not ready you can't say anything right, when their ready you can't say anything wrong.

Article stated that they believe if one of the Four Corner schools go, the other 3 will follow.

Fuck the B12. I say let's go on walkabout in the desert for 5 years. It worked for Moses didn't it?

For once I agree with Bill Self.

I read a couple days ago that the B12 would be going to 4 4-team pods, with the Four Corner schools in a pod together. Don't recall the source but that didn't excite me too much since the Cats might only play KU once per season and end up playing CU and Utah twice.

How sweet this would be!

If we could move along with Gonzaga... damn that would be the dream scenario.

Cool, stay behind with Oregon State in the New Mountain West conference where you belong.

They can stay behind with ASU. It's easy to sell them on staying because they'd finally have a change to win the conference.

Utah can go independent for all I care. Shouldn’t affect Arizona trying their hardest to join the Big12.

Of all the comments that have been made, I like the Bill Self quote about us. It’s so nice to be wanted. Time to drop this PAC Bitch like the ho she is

Utah just doesn't want others to know that BYU made the right move before them and now they have to compete. Utah wants to be the next USC of the PAC 12. Go for it - Like Kramer joining a kids Karate class.

True about not being a football school. Kind of sad though to see that we will never see the Cats play in The Rose Bowl. I have been waiting since I was a freshman in 1981.

We are also sick of the shitty leadership and decisions by the conference, the horrible refereeing they refuse to do anything about, and being targeted by those same leaders and refs. Fuck the PAC.

Wilner writes about the league, so he has a following. But I never cared for him when he was at the Star; he's never lacked for ego. He likes to make little backhanded comments about UArizona and Tucson. I think it would be ironic if Arizona is instrumental in forcing the issue with what's left of the Pac, and he'd no longer have that as his gig. So if the sneering reference to "southern plains" includes Dallas, Boulder, Phoenix, Orlando, and maybe San Diego...then sure.

Wilner seems to try too hard to prove that he doesn't have UA allegiance from his time in Tucson by being harder on the program than he treats other schools.

Yeah, and I wonder what regional description he'd give if the Bay Area schools, Utah, and WSU and OSU had to join with the MWC to form the Mountain Pac. San Fran, Vegas, and Colorado Springs, but also Albuquerque, Laramie, Logan, and some other garden spots. And he could pose as the big expert on their media deals, NIL, gaming, and other business aspects of the conference. No wonder he's grumpy.

Irish27 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:55 pm

The LA schools just joined the B1G, so apparently they're now midwest flyover schools. These are the rules apparently. As if Arizona's student body would change due to what teams Arizona plays in sports. Some of these arguments are so asinine it hurts my head.

Michael Crow comes off sounding like a moron.

We’re probably going to stay in this conference on a 3 year deal. May be the biggest most colossal and damaging waste of time we could ever possibly sign up for.

ChooChooCat wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:37 pm We’re probably going to stay in this conference on a 3 year deal. May be the biggest most colossal and damaging waste of time we could ever possibly sign up for.

And then we’ll probably re-up for another 3 because we just love compounding our mistakes.

CardiacCats97 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:45 pm

ChooChooCat wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:37 pm We’re probably going to stay in this conference on a 3 year deal. May be the biggest most colossal and damaging waste of time we could ever possibly sign up for.

And then we’ll probably re-up for another 3 because we just love compounding our mistakes.

By then Oregon and UW a will get their B1G invites and we will have wasted another 3 years to just hope the Big 12 would still take us. In the meantime Gonzaga will have been in the Big 12 for 4-5 years and will be ahead of us on the totem pole.

Asinine, stupid decision. 3 years? What a waste of time. Maybe we will get lucky being it is only three years since we may be stuck on Apple or Amazon with no viewers.

CardiacCats97 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:45 pm

ChooChooCat wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:37 pm We’re probably going to stay in this conference on a 3 year deal. May be the biggest most colossal and damaging waste of time we could ever possibly sign up for.

And then we’ll probably re-up for another 3 because we just love compounding our mistakes.

Then end up in the WAC or WCC since no one has seen the Cats on TV and have no nationwide interest.

And AZCatFan2 will still be saying "just wait, just wait, the big contract is coming!"

I wish UA had leadership who were leaders.

As far as football goes what does it matter what league were the worst, or the next to worst, team in?

As far as basketball goes why wouldn't Kansas be every bit as worthy a "Rival" as UCLA?

Personally, I got every bit as much enjoyment watching Arizona compete with teams in the WAC as I did after we left for the big time.

Football? But the Pac gave that up years ago. C'mon Robbins your a surgeon you should know by now this conference is on life support.