Bear Down Wildcats

AzCatFan2 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:52 pm When Mike Stoops took over, the team played hard through two 3-8 seasons. D looked much improved over the Macko-disaster, but the O? A delay of game coming off a tv timeout was the Canales special! After two years, Stoops had enough, hired Sonny Dykes, and the team went 6-6 the next year.

Well, Mackovic only had a year and a half to partially destroy what Tomey left behind and Sumlin had 3 years to totally destroy the barely viable mess that RR left behind.
I am disappointed because I did think this staff was enough of an upgrade that they could win a few games with the same team Sumlin failed with, but IMO, no AZ coach in my lifetime ever had a worse situation to start with than Fisch.

Merkin wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:44 pm

AV8RCAT wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:11 pm When is it a bad play call and when is it just poorly executed, simply because the players suck? Who started with a worse QB situation then we did?

That poor walk on QB who came in cold on 3rd and 6, and got his pass tipped and intercepted. That's all on the coach for making that call. How many plays did he get with the 1st team offense in practice? Or the 2nd team? At best the scout team.

100% of all other coaches would have had him hand the ball off or even run a QB draw. Why do almost all football games start with a handoff up the middle?

Answer: To calm the butterflies in the players' stomaches.

That's valid, but I would still have to hear his side, before assuming Coach was too stupid to consider this. Perhaps they saw a golden opportunity to convert a third down with the one pass play that Ashford can do blindfolded and knew it wouldn't be covered because Utah was expecting a hand off or QB draw. I don't have access to the replay to see how it blew up, but I tend to asterix interceptions resulting from tipped balls.
Having to call a time out to set up a 2 point conversion play they should know inside and out is another, but then again, maybe some players are just too inept to even get lined up right no matter how much you coach them.

In reality, I'm not the type to bitch about fan support. I used to go early and walk the mall. This year, I just try to make it by kick off and I'll leave if I'm not enjoying watching us get cornholed. I tried to distance myself emotionally so I could just watch some football without getting too frantic about it but I kind of ended up just redirecting my emotional responses lol.
Coach isn't going to get replaced any time soon and who in their right mind, who would be better, would even want to replace him? Waste of time to even think about that right now.
I guess I just prefer to think that Fisch might succeed here, and haven't seen enough to know he won't. This year was extraordinarily fucked up in so many ways, I'm giving him a clean slate for next year, unless those fuckers up north get more billboard material.

AV8RCAT wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:45 pm

AzCatFan2 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:52 pm When Mike Stoops took over, the team played hard through two 3-8 seasons. D looked much improved over the Macko-disaster, but the O? A delay of game coming off a tv timeout was the Canales special! After two years, Stoops had enough, hired Sonny Dykes, and the team went 6-6 the next year.

Well, Mackovic only had a year and a half to partially destroy what Tomey left behind and Sumlin had 3 years to totally destroy the barely viable mess that RR left behind.
I am disappointed because I did think this staff was enough of an upgrade that they could win a few games with the same team Sumlin failed with, but IMO, no AZ coach in my lifetime ever had a worse situation to start with than Fisch.

Mackovic had 2 1/2 years in Tucson. His first year wasn't a total disaster either. Went 5-6 and would have gone bowling and beat USC had Bobby Wade not been incorrectly called out of bounds on a punt return. Should have been a TD, but it was called back. It was Mackovic's 2nd year that the player revolt happened, followed by the win at CAL. Mack was out in the middle of his third season.

As for RichRod, he had a system, and it worked. With RR, we were never going to have a roster full of NFL players, but we were going to have more winning seasons than not. Sumlin took over a RR team that went 7-5 in the regular season, and struggled to win 5 games as the offense sputtered early. Khalil Tate looked lost. Season ended with the ASu disaster collapse. Had RR stayed, not hard to see us winning 7 regular season games again and continue to roll on under RR, winning an average of 7 to 8 games a year, with the occasional challenge for the South, and an occasional rebuilding clunker year. Oh well. Unfortunately, just couldn't keep a guy as toxic as RR around in this day and age.

Sumlin was a disaster waiting to happen. Nobody did less with more talent at TAMU, and Arizona is never going to have the same talent level as TAMU. Sumlin was destined to do less with less talent in Tucson, and that's exactly what happened.

Hard to say who took over a worse team, Fisch or Stoops. Remember Kris Heavner and Richard Kovalcheck? Think either were better than McCloud, Cruz or Plummer? Other than Cason, I don't know if I can name another starter on D from that team. Did we have the walkon Copeland Bryan on that team? I think so.

That team reminds me a lot of our current one. No name D that is keeping us in games, but an inept O that makes more critical mistakes than critical plays. Stoops did a decent job recruiting, and had us moving in the right direction, especially after canning Canales. And that's the problem I see with Fisch. He's the Offensive Coordinator, and he's not going to fire himself. Not to mention, how much longer does Brown stick around? He is 65.

Ah, I thought Mackovic was canned in 2nd year.
Really looking forward to next year.

Mackovic also turned Jason Johnson into a record setting QB. No Tomey style pooch kicks or QB draws for Mackovic.

Which is exactly why he was hired. He was COY in 3 different conferences, so his resume was pretty good. Cat fans were demanding an offensive minded coach.

Outside of all the firings that is.

Then we get a defensive minded coach again, who would go into the prevent defense start of the 3rd quarter, and not allow your QB to throw a downfield pass.

So they went for another offensive minded coach, which didn't care much for defense or recruiting so he was out, so then reached out to another offensive minded coach who just happened to have Mr. Football as his QB.

But just like Stoops and RichRod, just another drunkard.

AzCatFan2 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:04 am

AV8RCAT wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:45 pm

AzCatFan2 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:52 pm When Mike Stoops took over, the team played hard through two 3-8 seasons. D looked much improved over the Macko-disaster, but the O? A delay of game coming off a tv timeout was the Canales special! After two years, Stoops had enough, hired Sonny Dykes, and the team went 6-6 the next year.

Well, Mackovic only had a year and a half to partially destroy what Tomey left behind and Sumlin had 3 years to totally destroy the barely viable mess that RR left behind.
I am disappointed because I did think this staff was enough of an upgrade that they could win a few games with the same team Sumlin failed with, but IMO, no AZ coach in my lifetime ever had a worse situation to start with than Fisch.

Mackovic had 2 1/2 years in Tucson. His first year wasn't a total disaster either. Went 5-6 and would have gone bowling and beat USC had Bobby Wade not been incorrectly called out of bounds on a punt return. Should have been a TD, but it was called back. It was Mackovic's 2nd year that the player revolt happened, followed by the win at CAL. Mack was out in the middle of his third season.

As for RichRod, he had a system, and it worked. With RR, we were never going to have a roster full of NFL players, but we were going to have more winning seasons than not. Sumlin took over a RR team that went 7-5 in the regular season, and struggled to win 5 games as the offense sputtered early. Khalil Tate looked lost. Season ended with the ASu disaster collapse. Had RR stayed, not hard to see us winning 7 regular season games again and continue to roll on under RR, winning an average of 7 to 8 games a year, with the occasional challenge for the South, and an occasional rebuilding clunker year. Oh well. Unfortunately, just couldn't keep a guy as toxic as RR around in this day and age.

Sumlin was a disaster waiting to happen. Nobody did less with more talent at TAMU, and Arizona is never going to have the same talent level as TAMU. Sumlin was destined to do less with less talent in Tucson, and that's exactly what happened.

Hard to say who took over a worse team, Fisch or Stoops. Remember Kris Heavner and Richard Kovalcheck? Think either were better than McCloud, Cruz or Plummer? Other than Cason, I don't know if I can name another starter on D from that team. Did we have the walkon Copeland Bryan on that team? I think so.

That team reminds me a lot of our current one. No name D that is keeping us in games, but an inept O that makes more critical mistakes than critical plays. Stoops did a decent job recruiting, and had us moving in the right direction, especially after canning Canales. And that's the problem I see with Fisch. He's the Offensive Coordinator, and he's not going to fire himself. Not to mention, how much longer does Brown stick around? He is 65.

Agreed on Rich Rod, but did enjoy his tenure and how the teams played for him. Too bad he was such a douche behind the scenes. That record for this program is probably near the ceiling.
So loved some of those big wins over the Ducks! If only more success against the Devils.
Oh well. Agree on Brown, think he's a players coach, who draws lots from his players.

Not to kick RichRod, but his recruiting tailed off, and some of our struggles getting pushed around in the lines so much the last few years (and during his own tenure) are his responsibility. Sometimes, there's a shelf-life for a coach and his pitch. You can sell "the big dream" early on, but after a while, you have to sell what you've settled into. He tried the videos on social media and the squirrelly uniforms, but it didn't really pay off. RPO QBs were always going to flock to his offense, but the talent problems were generally elsewhere. Hence the flirtations with Virginia Tech and South Carolina. (And don't get me started on Marcel Yates.) So, I don't think he necessarily would have been able to generally crank out 7+ win teams year after year, any more than Mike Stoops could have kept things in the 2008-2010 level after his best assistants (and Nick Foles) were gone. There's no replacement for money to attract and retain top assistants. You benchmark other programs at the level you want to compete, and that's your price tag. And the buck stops on Robbins' desk.

TheCatInTheHat wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:39 am Not to kick RichRod, but his recruiting tailed off, and some of our struggles getting pushed around in the lines so much the last few years (and during his own tenure) are his responsibility. Sometimes, there's a shelf-life for a coach and his pitch. You can sell "the big dream" early on, but after a while, you have to sell what you've settled into. He tried the videos on social media and the squirrelly uniforms, but it didn't really pay off. RPO QBs were always going to flock to his offense, but the talent problems were generally elsewhere. Hence the flirtations with Virginia Tech and South Carolina. (And don't get me started on Marcel Yates.) So, I don't think he necessarily would have been able to generally crank out 7+ win teams year after year, any more than Mike Stoops could have kept things in the 2008-2010 level after his best assistants (and Nick Foles) were gone. There's no replacement for money to attract and retain top assistants. You benchmark other programs at the level you want to compete, and that's your price tag. And the buck stops on Robbins' desk.

We'll never know. And college football is more about Jimmy's and Joe's than X's and O's, but the coaching certainly matters. RichRod won 7 games and came close to winning a bowl game (had Wood only held on to the int), with basically the same team Sumlin won only 5 games with. And Sumlin had more clunkers than RichRod, with the debacles at Houston, at WSU, and the meltdown against ASu. Sumlin's first Arizona team had offensive continuity problems all year, and it's hard not to believe RichRod doesn't go bowling if we retain him.

It's also hard to guess what might have happened during Tate's senior year had RichRod stayed. Maybe Tate bombs like he did, and gets replaced by a true freshman? Or maybe with RichRod, Tate lives up to the Heisman hype and is at least in the discussion a good part of the year?

Assuming RichRod had stayed, and made bowl games in 18 and 19, that's 7 bowl games out of 8 years at Arizona. Even if they were more New Mexico Bowls than Fiesta Bowls, this kind of winning record doesn't go unnoticed. Especially if the Tate hype is sustained through his senior season.

True, we'd be recruiting more RPO QBs and Smurf receivers than top D-linemen, but again RIchRod proved he could win 7 games with a team with a below mediocre D. And RichRod proved that with an above mediocre D, he could win the PAC-12 South. It's a lot of assumptions, but had RR stayed, I could see averaging between 7 and 8 games a year, with the occasional push for a South title, and the occasional clunker season too.

With Fisch, hard to tell. Brown is by far, the best assistant on the staff. But he's 65, and not sure how much longer he'll be around. And in the PAC, you need to have a solid O to win. Utah had solid defenses for years, but didn't win the S until their offense caught up. And they still haven't had enough to win the PAC Championship. And Fisch, to me at least, isn't a good offensive coordinator. Neither is Carroll. So unless we upgrade on that side of the ball, or somehow recruit USC level talent that can overcome the coaching, it's hard to see Fisch being successful long term. Just my opinion.

I'm willing to entertain the possibility that with a full year in the system, another off season of learning and practicing what the coaches want them to do. A few more of "their kinda guys" and all will get better, including Fisch

I'm of the opinion that the cupboard was bare, the situation DIRE, injuries decimated hope, and yet somehow this Fisch dude kept the kids playing hard, believing that progress doesn't happen overnight, and its not useless to try.

Honestly, this team was a QB & an O-line away from winning probably 5-6 games this year, and played some of the tougher opponents on our schedule TOUGH. Everyone has a game that gets away from them now and again, and if you judge a coach on that... you will end up like Nebraska in a hurry (a has-been)

Anyone who thought Arizona football was anything less than a 3-4 year rebuilding project was REALLLLLLY fooling themselves. Sumlin was THE WORST coach I think I've ever seen, and it started EARLY (he mispronounced the name of his own starting QB who was getting Heisman hype the year previous... yea... worst coach on paper, on the field, and in the locker room I've EVER seen, and I was here for Mackovic...)

I can't believe how much we paid Sumlin to burn this program to the ground.
Someone ought to write a book with player interviews and tell the whole story.

Jedd received a D- for his first season, https://www.cbssports.com/college-footb ... mpionship/

That’s about what I’d give him.

But he keeps pulling straight A’s in summer school.

We need to show progress next year. Even if it's just 3 wins and a few close losses, that's progress. Pull in another great class next year, and win 6 and go bowling in 2023, then the sky is the limit.

I question whether Fisch has the coaching chops to get there. But at least there is a defined path, and step one, haul in a good class in 2021/22 has already been accomplished.

AzCatFan2 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:41 pm We need to show progress next year. Even if it's just 3 wins and a few close losses, that's progress. Pull in another great class next year, and win 6 and go bowling in 2023, then the sky is the limit.

I question whether Fisch has the coaching chops to get there. But at least there is a defined path, and step one, haul in a good class in 2021/22 has already been accomplished.

The four year arc should be…

Year 1 - Lose Big
Year 2 - Lose Close
Year 3 - Win Close
Year 4 - Win Big

Let’s see if Jedd Lasso can deliver.

Chicat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:43 pm

AzCatFan2 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:41 pm We need to show progress next year. Even if it's just 3 wins and a few close losses, that's progress. Pull in another great class next year, and win 6 and go bowling in 2023, then the sky is the limit.

I question whether Fisch has the coaching chops to get there. But at least there is a defined path, and step one, haul in a good class in 2021/22 has already been accomplished.

The four year arc should be…

Year 1 - Lose Big
Year 2 - Lose Close
Year 3 - Win Close
Year 4 - Win Big

Let’s see if Jedd Lasso can deliver.

Rich Rod will be watching as he advocates for fewer highly rated prospects and more OKG's.

Hansen weighs in:

Put it this way: If Fisch had taken control of Alabama’s football program last January, it’s likely the Crimson Tide would’ve gone 11-2 or 12-1. And if Nick Saban had taken charge of Arizona when Fisch did, it’s unlikely Saban would’ve coached the Wildcats to anything better than 2-10. Maybe 3-9 at best.

Few Power 5 coaches did more with less than Fisch did in 2021. Few, if any, rebuilt a program from ashes, restoring recruiting relevance, improving community outreach, establishing a seldom-seen work ethic, energy and feel of positivity the way Fisch did.

For that he gets one grade: A.

Yet USA Today wrote that Fisch “was a disaster.”

If anything was a disaster, it was USA Today’s lack of effort to do more than look at the final standings and react without doing a minimum of Journalism 101 research.

Hansen's Sunday Notebook: Tennessee's 20K fans made Wildcats' task even tougher

F- for Pops

Someone desperately wants a golf partner who he can bore to death with stories of early 1980s Southern Utah high school golf teams.

Don’t be so obvious Greg.

Hansen will always be a suckass hack. Kissing Frisch's and Lloyd's ass.

Fisch may have made the biggest impact of any AZ coach already.

"After all, if the program is good enough for a Tetaiora McMillan or Sterling Lane, why wouldn’t it be good enough for them? Keyan Burnett, Ephesians Prysock and Kevin Green Jr. all chose Arizona over USC, so why shouldn’t other high-end talent consider the same?

That is what this recruiting class can do." (bolded by me)

https://www.azdesertswarm.com/football/ ... ture-pac12

You can't lose to NAU and get an A.

azgreg wrote: ↑Sun Dec 26, 2021 11:46 am You can't lose to NAU and get an A.

Or even a C.

azgreg wrote: ↑Sun Dec 26, 2021 11:46 am You can't lose to NAU and get an A.

It's simple
A in one category, F in the other = C
As the first category, every thing that happens off the field, is designed to improve the 2nd category, winning on the field, it is at least as important grade wise. Especially early on.

This class is out of Arizona's league. Fisch nailed the prom queen.

Hansen is right in that the guy isn't looking at the bigger picture at all.

It all goes back to the guy who said it was a disaster. That was to strong. He inherited about 5 straight mid 50 recruiting classes or lower and mostly made that group competitive. He lost two starting QB’s as well and a few offensive lineman. While he didn’t reach the Vegas projected win total which to me would have been a C season he wasn’t rocked in a majority of the games go to me it was a D type of season.

Now for the off season as many have said, it’s a solid A and he remains unbeaten.

All the off field stuff looks great, but until it translates to between the lines on the turf, it's just same shit different day to me. Not going to be fooled into being cautiously optimistic - 40 years as a fan has taught me better.

UAEebs86 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 26, 2021 12:58 pm All the off field stuff looks great, but until it translates to between the lines on the turf, it's just same shit different day to me. Not going to be fooled into being cautiously optimistic - 40 years as a fan has taught me better.

I'm optimistic when there is a reason for it. I think there is. Disappointment over a damn sport isn't fatal.

As a recruiter, I would give him a solid A

As an onfield coach, he definitely deserves an F. Even if only because of the loss to NAU. Our "mid 50" recruiting classes would still have us fielding a much, much better team than NAU.

He needs to get an offensive coordinator and stick to overall roster management.

His play calling is definitely an F. Even between the 20's it was bad, but the red zone offense being the worst in recorded history has to make him reconsider that maybe it wasn't just the players.

You can't call sets made for pro-athletes with mid-major college talent.

Merkin wrote: ↑Sun Dec 26, 2021 4:15 pm His play calling is definitely an F. Even between the 20's it was bad, but the red zone offense being the worst in recorded history has to make him reconsider that maybe it wasn't just the players.

You can't call sets made for pro-athletes with mid-major college talent.

I'm a little more positive here. I'm ok with Fisch coaching for the long term and using sets that outstrip his current talent.

Calling stuff tailored to his current talent could have pulled the NAU game and best case, one other game. If he's implementing the long term stuff he wants players to learn, I'm fine with that. Striving for 3 wins isn't nearly as important as installing what you want for the long term.

Nobody was going to confuse our roster with Alabama's, but we could've won 3, maybe 4 last year. Poor play calling and game management cost us a few victories. Not too a deal as there isn't much difference between 1 win and 3 wins. And hopefully these problems can be fixed between by year 3.

But what if they aren't fixed? And we have a roster capable of 7 or 8 wins, but only win 5 and miss out on a bowl game? Or have a roster that can win 10 and the PAC-12 South, but only win 8 because of more coaching mistakes?

They say the best coaches can take their roster and beat your roster, then turn around and beat his own team with your roster. Maybe the coaching mistakes will be fixed with the right roster, but that's no guarantee. Not to mention, recruiting isn't an exact science. What happens if the players don't pan out as hoped? A good coach will adapt? Can Fisch?

Chicat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:43 pm

AzCatFan2 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:41 pm We need to show progress next year. Even if it's just 3 wins and a few close losses, that's progress. Pull in another great class next year, and win 6 and go bowling in 2023, then the sky is the limit.

I question whether Fisch has the coaching chops to get there. But at least there is a defined path, and step one, haul in a good class in 2021/22 has already been accomplished.

The four year arc should be…

Year 1 - Lose Big
Year 2 - Lose Close
Year 3 - Win Close
Year 4 - Win Big

Let’s see if Jedd Lasso can deliver.

Another unrealistic take. Do you understand that in year 4 (2024) the Junior & Senior classes will be Sumlins 2 recruiting classes?? Both were ranked #11 in the PAC12.....and thats before a huge chunk of them entered the transfer portal. So you are expecting Fisch to "Win Big" with the vast majority of the upperclassman coming from the worst 2 recruiting classes in the PAC 12 for their year??? Granted, a few members of Fischs first class will probably not redshirt and Fisch will probably get a handful of transfers but that doesn't change the fact that the Jr/Sr classes in 2024 will be largely devoid of talent.

No wonder UA football fans can't have anything nice.

Average college football coach tenure is 3.8 years.

If he's not winning by year 4, there's a good probability he'll be gone.


https://www.businessinsider.com/college ... 17-12?op=1

dmjcat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:18 pm

Chicat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:43 pm

AzCatFan2 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:41 pm We need to show progress next year. Even if it's just 3 wins and a few close losses, that's progress. Pull in another great class next year, and win 6 and go bowling in 2023, then the sky is the limit.

I question whether Fisch has the coaching chops to get there. But at least there is a defined path, and step one, haul in a good class in 2021/22 has already been accomplished.

The four year arc should be…

Year 1 - Lose Big
Year 2 - Lose Close
Year 3 - Win Close
Year 4 - Win Big

Let’s see if Jedd Lasso can deliver.

Another unrealistic take. Do you understand that in year 4 (2024) the Junior & Senior classes will be Sumlins 2 recruiting classes?? Both were ranked #11 in the PAC12.....and thats before a huge chunk of them entered the transfer portal. So you are expecting Fisch to "Win Big" with the vast majority of the upperclassman coming from the worst 2 recruiting classes in the PAC 12 for their year??? Granted, a few members of Fischs first class will probably not redshirt and Fisch will probably get a handful of transfers but that doesn't change the fact that the Jr/Sr classes in 2024 will be largely devoid of talent.

No wonder UA football fans can't have anything nice.

I read this in a high pitched breathless voice on verge of breaking into sobs.

Calm down Spanky. If you want to give a mediocre coach 7 years to figure out how to get us to 8-5, knock yourself out.

AzCatFan2 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:27 pm Nobody was going to confuse our roster with Alabama's, but we could've won 3, maybe 4 last year. Poor play calling and game management cost us a few victories. Not too a deal as there isn't much difference between 1 win and 3 wins. And hopefully these problems can be fixed between by year 3.

But what if they aren't fixed? And we have a roster capable of 7 or 8 wins, but only win 5 and miss out on a bowl game? Or have a roster that can win 10 and the PAC-12 South, but only win 8 because of more coaching mistakes?

They say the best coaches can take their roster and beat your roster, then turn around and beat his own team with your roster. Maybe the coaching mistakes will be fixed with the right roster, but that's no guarantee. Not to mention, recruiting isn't an exact science. What happens if the players don't pan out as hoped? A good coach will adapt? Can Fisch?

I would have loved to see Nick Saban beat his roster with ours.
None of you guys has convinced me that Fisch is a terrible xo coach, because I honestly don't know if you know what you're talking about.
I'll know more next year.

Chicat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:37 pm

dmjcat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:18 pm

Chicat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:43 pm

AzCatFan2 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:41 pm We need to show progress next year. Even if it's just 3 wins and a few close losses, that's progress. Pull in another great class next year, and win 6 and go bowling in 2023, then the sky is the limit.

I question whether Fisch has the coaching chops to get there. But at least there is a defined path, and step one, haul in a good class in 2021/22 has already been accomplished.

The four year arc should be…

Year 1 - Lose Big
Year 2 - Lose Close
Year 3 - Win Close
Year 4 - Win Big

Let’s see if Jedd Lasso can deliver.

Another unrealistic take. Do you understand that in year 4 (2024) the Junior & Senior classes will be Sumlins 2 recruiting classes?? Both were ranked #11 in the PAC12.....and thats before a huge chunk of them entered the transfer portal. So you are expecting Fisch to "Win Big" with the vast majority of the upperclassman coming from the worst 2 recruiting classes in the PAC 12 for their year??? Granted, a few members of Fischs first class will probably not redshirt and Fisch will probably get a handful of transfers but that doesn't change the fact that the Jr/Sr classes in 2024 will be largely devoid of talent.

No wonder UA football fans can't have anything nice.

I read this in a high pitched breathless voice on verge of breaking into sobs.

Calm down Spanky. If you want to give a mediocre coach 7 years to figure out how to get us to 8-5, knock yourself out.

Anyone who believes a new coach should "Win Big" with two upper classes ranked in the bottom of their conference is CLUELESS, sparky.

Try not to sob so loud.

That whole 4 step process was blabbered by RR. What happened was he won medium, won medium, won big, won close, lost big, won close.
That timeline is usually disrupted in some way.
Things happen. Backups turn out to be better than last years starters. Freshmen and transfers emerge as playmakers. Negative things happen too.
Injuries, etc. It's unpredictable.

I'm just looking for improvement from year to year and so far I've seen that.

dmjcat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:18 pm

Chicat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:43 pm

AzCatFan2 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:41 pm We need to show progress next year. Even if it's just 3 wins and a few close losses, that's progress. Pull in another great class next year, and win 6 and go bowling in 2023, then the sky is the limit.

I question whether Fisch has the coaching chops to get there. But at least there is a defined path, and step one, haul in a good class in 2021/22 has already been accomplished.

The four year arc should be…

Year 1 - Lose Big
Year 2 - Lose Close
Year 3 - Win Close
Year 4 - Win Big

Let’s see if Jedd Lasso can deliver.

Another unrealistic take. Do you understand that in year 4 (2024) the Junior & Senior classes will be Sumlins 2 recruiting classes?? Both were ranked #11 in the PAC12.....and thats before a huge chunk of them entered the transfer portal. So you are expecting Fisch to "Win Big" with the vast majority of the upperclassman coming from the worst 2 recruiting classes in the PAC 12 for their year??? Granted, a few members of Fischs first class will probably not redshirt and Fisch will probably get a handful of transfers but that doesn't change the fact that the Jr/Sr classes in 2024 will be largely devoid of talent.

No wonder UA football fans can't have anything nice.

So you think Fisch should get 6 years to see if he can win?

dmjcat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:55 pm

Chicat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:37 pm

dmjcat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:18 pm

Chicat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:43 pm

AzCatFan2 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:41 pm We need to show progress next year. Even if it's just 3 wins and a few close losses, that's progress. Pull in another great class next year, and win 6 and go bowling in 2023, then the sky is the limit.

I question whether Fisch has the coaching chops to get there. But at least there is a defined path, and step one, haul in a good class in 2021/22 has already been accomplished.

The four year arc should be…

Year 1 - Lose Big
Year 2 - Lose Close
Year 3 - Win Close
Year 4 - Win Big

Let’s see if Jedd Lasso can deliver.

Another unrealistic take. Do you understand that in year 4 (2024) the Junior & Senior classes will be Sumlins 2 recruiting classes?? Both were ranked #11 in the PAC12.....and thats before a huge chunk of them entered the transfer portal. So you are expecting Fisch to "Win Big" with the vast majority of the upperclassman coming from the worst 2 recruiting classes in the PAC 12 for their year??? Granted, a few members of Fischs first class will probably not redshirt and Fisch will probably get a handful of transfers but that doesn't change the fact that the Jr/Sr classes in 2024 will be largely devoid of talent.

No wonder UA football fans can't have anything nice.

I read this in a high pitched breathless voice on verge of breaking into sobs.

Calm down Spanky. If you want to give a mediocre coach 7 years to figure out how to get us to 8-5, knock yourself out.

Anyone who believes a new coach should "Win Big" with two upper classes ranked in the bottom of their conference is CLUELESS, sparky.

Try not to sob so loud.

Anyone who refuses to acknowledge that highly talented underclassmen will contribute early and that even lower level talent can be coached up and trained to play at a high level by their junior and senior years is arguing in bad faith or idiocy. You choose.

RichRod did OK with poor recruiting classes for the most part.

I'm confused. In one breath out one side of the mouth comes the "we have no talent. No OL talent and no one at QB and what in the world can ever do and oh my god". Almost in the very same breath but out of the other side of the mouth comes "he can't call plays, he gets an F and he's so bad". So which is it? If our talent is as bad as all that, it doesn't matter what you call, it's not going anywhere. If he's that bad at play calling I would think players and offensive coaches would be bailing on him. I actually saw one post where someone actually implied that no one else on the offense had any input into what plays are called. Does anyone think that a good deal of the problem was from the 4th game on we were playing with our 3rd string QB and every week was a crap shoot to see which linemen were well enough to play? My worry is keeping the OL healthy. We keep them healthy they will get better in leaps and bounds. If they stay healthy the QB will do better and better no matter who it is. I don't think for a minute Fisch's play calling is the real problem.

^^^
This

Chicat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 5:32 pm

dmjcat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:55 pm

Chicat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:37 pm

dmjcat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:18 pm

Chicat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:43 pm

The four year arc should be…

Year 1 - Lose Big
Year 2 - Lose Close
Year 3 - Win Close
Year 4 - Win Big

Let’s see if Jedd Lasso can deliver.

Another unrealistic take. Do you understand that in year 4 (2024) the Junior & Senior classes will be Sumlins 2 recruiting classes?? Both were ranked #11 in the PAC12.....and thats before a huge chunk of them entered the transfer portal. So you are expecting Fisch to "Win Big" with the vast majority of the upperclassman coming from the worst 2 recruiting classes in the PAC 12 for their year??? Granted, a few members of Fischs first class will probably not redshirt and Fisch will probably get a handful of transfers but that doesn't change the fact that the Jr/Sr classes in 2024 will be largely devoid of talent.

No wonder UA football fans can't have anything nice.

I read this in a high pitched breathless voice on verge of breaking into sobs.

Calm down Spanky. If you want to give a mediocre coach 7 years to figure out how to get us to 8-5, knock yourself out.

Anyone who believes a new coach should "Win Big" with two upper classes ranked in the bottom of their conference is CLUELESS, sparky.

Try not to sob so loud.

Anyone who refuses to acknowledge that highly talented underclassmen will contribute early and that even lower level talent can be coached up and trained to play at a high level by their junior and senior years is arguing in bad faith or idiocy. You choose.

Anyone who thinks a new coach should "Win Big" with Junior/Senior classes ranked 11th (which doesn't include the Grant Gunnels of the world who fled through the transfer portal) is beyond a mere idiot.

Here's an easy question for you. Assuming your prediction is rational (or even marginally reasonable) please give us an example of a new PAC12 coach who has "Won Big" with Jr/Sr. classes ranked at the bottom of the league.

Merkin wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 5:37 pm RichRod did OK with poor recruiting classes for the most part.

He did well with Stoops classes........not his, which is why we were circling the toilet by the time RRod left.

Stoops had no classes ranked lower than 8th. Fisch will field a team next year with 4 classes ranked 11,11,11, and 11. Fischs first class, which will rank somewhere between 2nd and 5th depending on how other teams finish, will mostly redshirt. And remember that those classes (RichRod/Sumlin) are actually even worse due to the transfer portal. The portal didn't exist when RRod took over for Stoops, hence the vast majority of the players stayed.

His play calling was head scratching at times but I will live with that if he can dig us out of the talent deficit like Stoops did.

I do believe he will produce sooner than Stoops did and I think the ceiling is higher as well.

If Arizona is ever going to catch lightning in a bottle and make that elusive Rose Bowl, probably best to have a really good recruiter for a few years like Jedd and then fire him and bring in a good X's and O's coach.

dmjcat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 6:47 pm

Chicat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 5:32 pmAnyone who refuses to acknowledge that highly talented underclassmen will contribute early and that even lower level talent can be coached up and trained to play at a high level by their junior and senior years is arguing in bad faith or idiocy. You choose.

Anyone who thinks a new coach should "Win Big" with Junior/Senior classes ranked 11th (which doesn't include the Grant Gunnels of the world who fled through the transfer portal) is beyond a mere idiot.

Here's an easy question for you. Assuming your prediction is rational (or even marginally reasonable) please give us an example of a new PAC12 coach who has "Won Big" with Jr/Sr. classes ranked at the bottom of the league.

So you’ve chosen bad faith…

Mike Leach went 9-4 at WSU, beating Miami in the Sun Bowl in year 4. The Cougars recruiting classes the two years prior to his arrival were ranked 12th and 12th in the Pac-12.

https://247sports.com/college/washingto ... l/Commits/

Chicat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 7:53 pm

dmjcat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 6:47 pm

Chicat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 5:32 pmAnyone who refuses to acknowledge that highly talented underclassmen will contribute early and that even lower level talent can be coached up and trained to play at a high level by their junior and senior years is arguing in bad faith or idiocy. You choose.

Anyone who thinks a new coach should "Win Big" with Junior/Senior classes ranked 11th (which doesn't include the Grant Gunnels of the world who fled through the transfer portal) is beyond a mere idiot.

Here's an easy question for you. Assuming your prediction is rational (or even marginally reasonable) please give us an example of a new PAC12 coach who has "Won Big" with Jr/Sr. classes ranked at the bottom of the league.

So you’ve chosen bad faith…

Mike Leach went 9-4 at WSU, beating Miami in the Sun Bowl in year 4. The Cougars recruiting classes the two years prior to his arrival were ranked 12th and 12th in the Pac-12.

https://247sports.com/college/washingto ... l/Commits/

No, I chose truth over bullshit

So WSU's 9-4 team (6-3 in the PAC12 with 3 regular season wins over FBS teams with winning records) is "WINNING BIG"

"Winning Big" is finishing 3rd in your division - Chicat

If that is your definition of winning big, so be it. Somehow I don't believe you will rate Fisch using the same standard.

A 9-4 season three years after 1-11 would absolutely be winning big at Arizona. You look foolish acting like it wouldn’t be.