2015 Arizona Diamondbacks

[MrBug708]

Sounds like they had the same deal for Jose Fernandez but pulled out due to the injury concerns

[JMarkJohns]

Sounds like they had the same deal for Jose Fernandez but pulled out due to the injury concerns

Not same deal, this plus Corbin and either OBrien or another solid prospect or I heard Corbin/Pollock/Swanson and two of Shipley/Blair/OBrien.

Not nearly the same. Factor in TJ and I certainly understand them balking.

[rgdeuce]

Not what I heard Bug. Reports are the Marlins wanted (brace yourselves):

Corbin, Inciarte, Swanson, Blair, and Drury.... Obviously the Miller trade is less painful, but Miller isnt close to the pitcher Fernandez is.

Reports are, they want from the Dodgers: Seager, Pederson, Urias, and two other unnamed players. In other words, they don't want to move him but if you give them the world they will pull the trigger.

[JMarkJohns]

I understand we can't view this Miller acquisition through the narrow and rare scope of other Diamondback players, but:

I remember when Schilling was considered an underachiever.

I remember when Webb walked an awful lot of batters before honing command.

I remember when Scherzer walked a ton of batter and seldom escaped the 6th.

Miller has improved many aspects of his game over the years.

Maybe this is closer to those types above than a Cahill.

[Coop Cat]

[azgreg]

[MrBug708]

Crawford could be had for cheap

[rgdeuce]

I understand we can't view this Miller acquisition through the narrow and rare scope of other Diamondback players, but:

I remember when Schilling was considered an underachiever.

I remember when Webb walked an awful lot of batters before honing command.

I remember when Scherzer walked a ton of batter and seldom escaped the 6th.

Miller has improved many aspects of his game over the years.

Maybe this is closer to those types above than a Cahill.

He wont be a Cahill. Hes not a bad pitcher nor do I expect him to be. I just think he is overvalued to begin with and we gave up way to much for a pitcher of his caliber and a guy who wont have the ceiling of an ace or a top level number 2 unless he develops at least one plus secondary option.

As for the other guys, Scherzer was dirty. Explosive fastball, a plus to plus plus slider, great movement, two other good pitches. He just needed time to learn how to pitch and work on his command. His stuff was always explosive though.

Schilling had explosive stuff too and just needed time to mature. He had three plus pitches, fastball, slider and split. He made three all star games, had four seasons of 3.25 ERA when steroids were getting big, and had finished fourth in Cy Young once, all before he came to Arizona. He became one of the games best when he stopped being a thrower and learned to be a pitcher.

Webb had good fastball movement and a plus plus wipeout sinker. His breaking pitches were better than Millers are.

The difference is all the above guys have at least one plus or better secondary pitch, Webb had the worst stuff of all of them but his sinker was incredible. Miller doesnt have any of that. Can he develop a plus pitch down the road, possibly, but the odds arent in his favor. Maybe Dave Stewart can teach him a split finger if he has the hands for it, that would be a nice wipeout pitch to compliment his four seamer and cutter. He needs to throw his breakinf ball harder w sharper bite too. Those are his biggest limitations, command and maturity arent the biggest killers.

[wooha]

I'm happy to have an already All-Star at age 25 who still possesses significant upside. This might be a Scherzer type where it takes time to dominate.

And he will be a major contributor the next 3-4 years - essentially the team's window now - through the prime of Goldschmidt, Greinke, and Pollock's careers. Most current prospects wouldn't/won't be doing that until the tail end of the window, at best.

As for Inciarte, hopefully the front office is right and Socrates Brito can step in and fill his role.

[The Goat]

Trading the prospects isn't the problem as I agree the team has a window of right now with Goldy and Pollock being cost controlled. The problem is the asset they traded them for. Miller isn't a bad pitcher, but he has the production that is more in line with a number 3 starter than a 1 or 2. It is an awful lot to give for a player who still has to take the next step to be what you are expecting. That said, Stewart said they preferred Salazar to Miller and the package that got Miller wouldn't have gotten him so maybe the costs of these cost controlled players is just through the roof with the rising salaries in baseball.

At this point they can't stop now and have to keep adding to the squad. It would be nice to get one more pitcher of solid innings but the main points are that the middle IF needs to be addressed (I can deal with 1 blackhole in the lineup in Ahmed, but Owings has to be replaced) and a bullpen piece or 2 identified. Now maybe Bradley and Rubby get shifted to the pen to shore that up and maybe they think Drury can step in and own 2nd which would be nice. The team is better than last year, but it is still going to be a fight for the division with the Giants and Dodgers while the WC isn't going to be a given with the Nats, Mets, and the 3 headed beast in the NL Central is out there. Especially since those east teams are going to have such an inflated W-L record with 2 teams tanking in their division and the Marlins being perpetually clueless.

[rgdeuce]

Trading the prospects isn't the problem as I agree the team has a window of right now with Goldy and Pollock being cost controlled. The problem is the asset they traded them for. Miller isn't a bad pitcher, but he has the production that is more in line with a number 3 starter than a 1 or 2. It is an awful lot to give for a player who still has to take the next step to be what you are expecting. That said, Stewart said they preferred Salazar to Miller and the package that got Miller wouldn't have gotten him so maybe the costs of these cost controlled players is just through the roof with the rising salaries in baseball.

At this point they can't stop now and have to keep adding to the squad. It would be nice to get one more pitcher of solid innings but the main points are that the middle IF needs to be addressed (I can deal with 1 blackhole in the lineup in Ahmed, but Owings has to be replaced) and a bullpen piece or 2 identified. Now maybe Bradley and Rubby get shifted to the pen to shore that up and maybe they think Drury can step in and own 2nd which would be nice. The team is better than last year, but it is still going to be a fight for the division with the Giants and Dodgers while the WC isn't going to be a given with the Nats, Mets, and the 3 headed beast in the NL Central is out there. Especially since those east teams are going to have such an inflated W-L record with 2 teams tanking in their division and the Marlins being perpetually clueless.

Pretty much what I have been saying so I agree 100%. I truly believe they pulled off the Greinke and got a little too trigger happy with that momentum ala the Padres last year. You always have to give up big prospects for the best pitchers, but this obviously is not a case of that, PLUS are now on our third straight GM who is willing to completely drain our farm system. If they show they are willing to be big spenders when needed moving forward, that is an easier pill to swallow. But id rather be in a position of good to great for years to come and spend money when needed, rather than win now mode and if it doesn't work out in a few years, spend the next 4 plus at the bottom of the NL WEST.

Our win now mode isn't guaranteed anyhow, and thinking about it, our rotation still pales in comparison to the Cubs, St Louis, Nats, Giants, and the Mets. If the Dodgers add a top arm, we may be even with them too. I 100 percent agree at this point they need to keep adding but at this point, there isnt much. We are gonna lose out on Leake it looks like. People talk about our offense and defense being at such a high level so we could absorb losing Inciarte, but I dont agree. I discussed the hit above by the numbers. And that is one less important piece in a lineup that includes two middle infielders who probably wont get it done with the bat. Hopefully someone like a Drury like u said can step in and have a season like Lamb and surprise everyone. Ahmed is absolutely essential at shortstop, he put up gold glove numbers last year and was statistically the 3rd best defensive player in baseball (trailing only two shortstops and one spot ahead of Ender). As long as he is above the mendoza line and can get on base better than .250, he has to be our almost every day guy. He finished with a strong september so hopefully he can build off that. I dont see any cost effective places we could upgrade at this point. Its starting pitcher or bust, or maybe a bullpen guy.

[JMarkJohns]

You're overreacting Duece. They didn't completely drain the system.

The trade of Touki was much worse than this trade, although, he didn't exactly pitch well with Atlanta.

Diamondbacks still have Ray, Bradley, Shipley as far as pitching prospects, and have Drury to join Lamb, Ahmed, Owings on the infield, and O'Brien and Brito to join Tomas and Peralt in outfield.

Those are just the soon-to-be ready MLbers.

And where Goat is begrudgingly accepting in spite of price and flaws, you're still harping the same off-beat tune as before.

There was nothing wrong with the trade. If they did due diligence and they couldn't get Salazar or Fernandez without giving up Pollock or Corbin, then they made the right choice.

[rgdeuce]

You're overreacting Duece. They didn't completely drain the system.

The trade of Touki was much worse than this trade, although, he didn't exactly pitch well with Atlanta.

Diamondbacks still have Ray, Bradley, Shipley as far as pitching prospects, and have Drury to join Lamb, Ahmed, Owings on the infield, and O'Brien and Brito to join Tomas and Peralt in outfield.

Those are just the soon-to-be ready MLbers.

And where Goat is begrudgingly accepting in spite of price and flaws, you're still harping the same off-beat tune as before.

There was nothing wrong with the trade. If they did due diligence and they couldn't get Salazar or Fernandez without giving up Pollock or Corbin, then they made the right choice.

Wasn't saying it is completely drained, only that they have shown a willingness to do so. When you move 3 of your top 5 prospects, that shows a willingness. Or another way to look at it is having a farm system without three #1 picks for three straight years (14, 15, no pick for 16). We weren't loaded with top 100 talent before those moves. There are always guys who emerge from outside that, but that is your bread and butter for talent and trade bait. 3 guys got moved to save a little cash and Miller. You cant judge a pitcher with an unbelievably high ceiling like Touki off a season or even two in the minors though. He may flop, but he should be looked at like a stack of gold bars until he is 23 or 24 and has not figured it out or has constant arm problems.

And again, with all due respect, you are one of the few who doesn't absolutely hate this trade. There is a long list of executives and scouts and knowledgeable and trusted writers and bloggers who have called it anything from a fleecing, to the worst trade they have ever seen. So lets not treat me like a bad guy here If that is the last piece and it pushes us over the edge, then fine. But as I posted above, Im not sure Miller even gives us a top 5 NL rotation when rotations are condensed in the postseason.

I wouldn't be too confident in O'Brien. He is a dreadful outfielder (.939 fielding percentage and no range) and despite his raw power, he is a guy who has struck out one out of every four at bats (at best) his entire minor league career. He's 24. Brito was solid at AA, but it was AA. I do like Shipley and Bradley, but those are the only two top 100 guys we got right now and it isnt like they are top 20 guys. I dont see any other big impact players in our farm system right now and the scouts do not either. We have seen what happens to dbacks teams with a lot of just good enoughs and not enough studs.