OOC scheduling

[Beachcat97]

Does anyone know why we generally do not schedule OOC games past December, and therefore during the Pac schedule? Many teams do this, but not us. Why?

[Bruins01]

Didn't you play Houston mid-season a few years ago?

There was also that disastrous home-and-home you had with North Carolina before that.

[ChooChooCat]

Didn't you play Houston mid-season a few years ago?

There was also that disastrous home-and-home you had with North Carolina before that.

That was during the Lute Olson regime.

We stopped this practice with his retirement. I don't know why.

[Frybry02]

I also think the randomness of PAC 12 scheduling makes it difficult especially when games are no longer guaranteed to be Thursday/Saturday.

[Beachcat97]

It just seems that there are some possible competitive (and possibly recruiting) advantages to be gained in playing at least one quality OOC opponent later in the season. I'm sure it presents scheduling challenges, but if other teams do it, no reason we can't.

I was wondering if CSM has some philosophical opposition to it. Not sure.

[Chicat]

Didn't you play Houston mid-season a few years ago?

There was also that disastrous home-and-home you had with North Carolina before that.

That was during the Lute Olson regime.

We stopped this practice with his retirement. I don't know why.

The mid-season time off is thought of as more valuable than the quality OOC competition/result. Kind of like the NFL bye week.

[Merkin]

Didn't you play Houston mid-season a few years ago?

There was also that disastrous home-and-home you had with North Carolina before that.

That was during the Lute Olson regime.

We stopped this practice with his retirement. I don't know why.

Getting beat down will do that to you. CSM asked for the cancellation, since he knew his early teams would get beat down too. If I remember right, Miller said they may continue the series once UA became competitive.

But that was a different time, really hard to schedule home and homes any more. Most elite teams want a neutral site, so you end up with the pay to get beat down non-conf schedules like we see now.

Cal Poly is playing both Stanford and Cal this year, nice payouts to get whooped.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I also think the randomness of PAC 12 scheduling makes it difficult especially when games are no longer guaranteed to be Thursday/Saturday.

We can really only do it for sure ASU week. That said, I buy the idea that the later in the season, the better it is to get a little rest. It does not offend me.

[Frybry02]

I also think the randomness of PAC 12 scheduling makes it difficult especially when games are no longer guaranteed to be Thursday/Saturday.

We can really only do it for sure ASU week. That said, I buy the idea that the later in the season, the better it is to get a little rest. It does not offend me.

Agreed. Rest is nice

[gronk4heisman]

I have no problem not playing OOC games during Pac 12 season, rest is key down the stretch. On the same note, I have a huge problem with the weak scheduling before the conference season (This really seems to be an AD thing since football OOC is a joke too) and think it hurts us come March.

[Beachcat97]

I like the idea of facing a non-Pac opponent closer to March, rather than going 2.5 months only playing Pac teams, most of whom will not reach the tourney. In the tournament, we face exclusively non-Pac teams (save for the super small chance of meeting one in the S16 or later), teams we don't know at all. Squeezing in a Feb game vs. a team like Butler or Kansas or Gonzaga gives us a little taste of March, before we're actually in March. It would be interesting to compare tourney performance by teams who do this vs. teams who don't.

[rgdeuce]

I like the idea of facing a non-Pac opponent closer to March, rather than going 2.5 months only playing Pac teams, most of whom will not reach the tourney. In the tournament, we face exclusively non-Pac teams (save for the super small chance of meeting one in the S16 or later), teams we don't know at all. Squeezing in a Feb game vs. a team like Butler or Kansas or Gonzaga gives us a little taste of March, before we're actually in March. It would be interesting to compare tourney performance by teams who do this vs. teams who don't.

Seven Pac 12 teams made the NCAA tournament last year. Ironically, that was the year we were bounced in the first round, whereas in years past our conference seemingly had us well-prepared due to our deep runs. The only argument would be for getting an elite top 5 team in before March, but we have that with UCLA this year (twice) and Oregon last year, and there are always Utah- or Cal-like teams who are in the teens or 20s, and Washingtons and USCs who are going to be competitive and/or have some star power that will help prepare us as well. Dont underestimate how tough the Pac 12 can be on the road. Then again, would playing a UNC in February have changed anything with the Wisconsin games? I dont think so. Like Spliff said, rest (physical and mental) is probably more beneficial.

[PHXCATS]

See both sides to it. If it worked out where you played ASSU at the start of Feb and in March like this year I can see moving on OCC game to Feb but that isn't guaranteed when making this agreement. U of A does get preferencial treatment with the basketball scheduling but not sure you can ask or demand to play ASSU at certain times.

Don't mess with Rest at the end though and don't play five games in a 11 or so day span either.

[Beachcat97]

If you're concerned about that extra rest close to the tourney, play the last OOC game in late January.

I just think the dissonance of interrupting Pac play with an OOC game mimics the dissonance of thr tourney, where all of your opponents are from outside your league, and it's a quick turn around.

Again, it's possible CSM prefers no OOC games past December, for some of the reasons noted above. I'm just wondering if there's any measurable competitive advantage in doing this.

[rgdeuce]

Not risking another ankle, knee, back, or shoulder go out and giving your team a "half-bye" week in the middle of the conference grind is enough for me. Although the tides have turned some in some of the more recent years, there have been plenty of "ultra competitive" Big 10 conferences where week in and week out you were playing "top level" competition, only to shit the bed in the NCAA tournament. The conference tournament is exhausting and good enough to "prep" us for the NCAA grind, which really isn't that big of a grind anyhow with a day off between games and two games a week. A Colorado/Utah, UCLA/USC, Stanford/Cal or Oregon State/Oregon road trip more times than not is going to accomplish the two tough games in three days test.

[EVCat]

We play 18 games, some conferences only play 14 or 16.

We used to play a national opponent the week of the first ASU game, but no major national opponents play road games anymore (the top 10 teams play on average one to two road games per season out of conference), and Miller has decided the rest is far more needed. Which, with our injury situation in 2013/14 and this year, and our roster issues with Sidiki and Josiah, has proven to be right on the money. The competitive advantage is in having both a break where the players do not need to board a plane on an otherwise home game weekend, and having that rare block of in-season practices where you are not opponent-scouting and can work on basics, or install something new. Once the season starts, it is usually nothing but scouting report work on the next opponent. Plus, sometimes, you just need a break. Twice during the conference season, we get that one game week. Under Lute, we would play one of those two weeks. But, now, unless it is a Phoenix neutral site game, it just isn't worth it. Remember...Lute was depending upon 3rd and 4th year players primarily in a much different era of college basketball. In today's game, you get 6 months with key players before the NCAA tournament, 4 of those during season game weeks. Any period where you can practice without a specific scout to game plan is golden with younger players. You don't really need metrics, nor could you get them, to understand that.

But, sometimes, you have no idea which game is going to be the RPI sinker.

This year, as of the current RealTimeRPI rankings, the biggest kick to the balls of this year's schedule is...the true road game vs an SEC opponent. Missouri. Mizzou. Current RPI of 262. And while the SEC will prop it up a bit, they just suck. Sometimes, you just pick the wrong opponent

[Chicat]

I'm all for adding in another OOC game in the midst of the conference season . . . as long as we get rid of the Pac-12 tourney.

[EVCat]

I'm all for adding in another OOC game in the midst of the conference season . . . as long as we get rid of the Pac-12 tourney.

Another good point. We, in actuality, have 19-21 conference games.

So differences between now and when Lute used to play an OOC during the first ASU week:

1. Players are younger today, making open practices without an opponent to scout more valuable, as coaches of elite programs only get 6 months total instruction with one and dones. After early November, most practices come with a scout session. Lute was asking juniors and seniors to change gears, leave the mindset of conference play, and prepare for an OOC national opponent, not freshmen. Lute also had years of instruction in with those players, and did not need a 2 day break in the middle of the season to install anything new he wanted to try.

2. Lute did not have a PAC 10/12 tournament most years. At the very beginning and toward the end he did, but he didn't really care much for them and our performance reflected his disgust. Some conferences play 14 or 16 games...the Big 12 plays 14, for example. We play 18. Add 1 to 3 conference games in the tournament, and you are now playing up to 21 conference games in a space other teams you will be competing against in the tournament will play 17 or 19. Let them cram a couple of OOC games in to make the wear and tear even.

3. Elite programs won't play home and homes with us. Many schedule one or two road games out of conference tops (I had a list on a post a week or so ago...the majority of elite teams played ONE road OOC game), and their motivation is to travel to a high-level recruiting area (LA) or a combination recruiting/trip for the fans/player homecoming (UNLV is hosting Duke, Oregon, and Kansas this year, and it isn't because the Runnin' Rebels are a quality opponent). There is little to gain by playing that extra game given all you have to give up to do so, but it is really no gain if you can't get a top notch opponent.

You also don't want a younger team looking ahead to Kansas or Duke when their in-state rival is on the schedule two days earlier. That may be OK with a senior-laden team, but we will rarely, if ever, have those again, and if we do, it is not really an indicator of power in our position (last year, for example).

[ASUHATER!]

I'm all for adding in another OOC game in the midst of the conference season . . . as long as we get rid of the Pac-12 tourney.

yes please. conference tournaments are the most pointless thing in sports.

[Beachcat97]

UVA@Nova on 1/29...just sayin.

And I'm totally on board with getting rid of the Pac tourney.

[Merkin]

Lute sure had a distaste for the PAC tourney. He preferred the time off to rest his players for the real tourney.

Being a huge fan of Lavin, my favorite PAC tourney was the year Lavin was going to get fired, so Lute purposely lost to his team in the PAC tourney. Didn't happen, but I think Lute, along with many others, was hoping the Lavin team would win it all so they would go to the NCAAs to give UCLA a big FU.

[Beachcat97]

If it were a choice between the Pac tourney and an annual OOC game vs. a high level opponent, give me the latter.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I'm all for adding in another OOC game in the midst of the conference season . . . as long as we get rid of the Pac-12 tourney.

yes please. conference tournaments are the most pointless thing in sports.

It will never leave. The conference tourney is a way to keep some hope alive for every team. Even if the season has been terrible, it still keeps fans engaged. That keeps fans buying stuff and watching.

Without the conference tourney, in any given year, 1/3 of the Pac would basically have their season over by early February. It disporportionately deals with teams that aren't perennial NCAA teams like we are.

[Beachcat97]

.It will never leave.

There was no tourney from 1991 to 2001.

[PHXCATS]

Some of you have obviously never gone to Vegas. You cannot get rid of the PAC Tournament unless all conferences do it. Too much seeding on the line to do so.

[ASUHATER!]

Some of you have obviously never gone to Vegas. You cannot get rid of the PAC Tournament unless all conferences do it. Too much seeding on the line to do so.

it worked fine in the 90s

[PHXCATS]

Some of you have obviously never gone to Vegas. You cannot get rid of the PAC Tournament unless all conferences do it. Too much seeding on the line to do so.

it worked fine in the 90s

Big ten started 1998
big 12 started in 1997.

So yeah....need to think a bit more about it.

While you obviously have never gone You need to understand its importance in today's game.

[ASUHATER!]

i went to a couple of the tournaments in LA like 10 years ago. it's pointless. they should be banned from the sport.

[PHXCATS]

i went to a couple of the tournaments in LA like 10 years ago. it's pointless. they should be banned from the sport.

Cool lets lose a huge money maker to fall even further behind the other conferences, a point of Arizona Wildcats pride and dominance, and sacrifice all the PAC12 teams NCAA seeding. We don't need help anyway as a conference, we are always in the final four and winning titles in basketball..............

[EVCat]

It will never leave.

Not only has it been a total success in its Vegas iteration, there are TV contract concerns. Anyone who has attended in Vegas has a much different view than the LA snorefests. It is like a U of A reunion with Vegas as the backdrop. It is a home game, a pep rally, and they finally found the sweet spot that can make us step back from Lute's conditioning and embrace this thing, because it is a lot of fun.

And no fkn way am I playing at Nova without a return game to McKale. And they won't do it. We aren't a college basketball prostitute. We can, certainly, meet on an even playing field with a home and home, but we are not giving ourselves away. We don't need such a game for our profile. We get plenty of that in Maui, and the preseason NIT, and the Wooden Classic, and Armed Forces Classic, etc. That is the name of the elite matchup game, and we are fully a player in the game.

But nothing about Arizona basketball screams "we need exposure". Read the message board of teams we are getting ready to play, even major conference teams. Mizzou and Texas A&M refer to us as "Zona" because that has become, for better or worse, the brand, and they know EXACTLY who we are. They look at us as a shot at making their season. Their attendance spikes. They generate media and board traffic by just talking about the game. There is a reason courts get rushed constantly when we lose on the road.

Our name on the front of that jersey does not require whoring ourselves for single date opportunities to play bottom to Nova or Duke. Even if the name is getting harder and harder to read.

[Spaceman Spiff]

i went to a couple of the tournaments in LA like 10 years ago. it's pointless. they should be banned from the sport.

Cool lets lose a huge money maker to fall even further behind the other conferences, a point of Arizona Wildcats pride and dominance, and sacrifice all the PAC12 teams NCAA seeding. We don't need help anyway as a conference, we are always in the final four and winning titles in basketball..............

It would cut prestige of the conference, but it wouldn't downgrade seeding. We just wouldn't have the ability to affect seeding down the stretch that last week.

It is big for TV and prestige. If we didn't have a crappy TV contract where all the games are hidden on Pac network, things would have been that much better.

[Beachcat97]

It's also possible that the poor quality of this year's OOC schedule simply has me craving more, whether it happens before or during the Pac schedule.

[Chicat]

Some of you have obviously never gone to Vegas. You cannot get rid of the PAC Tournament unless all conferences do it. Too much seeding on the line to do so.

For every team that has played its way into the tourney or a seed, there's another that has played its way out.

The real reason you can't get rid of the tourney is because of money. And there's a shitload to be made. I'm not saying you have to get rid of it. I'm just saying it's another in a long line of reasons why we don't need to add a mid-conference season OOC game to fill out the resume.

Another reason would be that for it to be a quality OOC game, we'd need to schedule a home-and-home. Are we going to jump on a plane and go to Connecticut or Philadelphia or Bloomington when you've got upcoming trips to places as far away as Pullman, Washington?? Sounds like a recipe for turning nagging injuries and fatigue into a depth problem.

[EVCat]

I can see it being used to push a team with success in a conference tourney past a team sitting it out in seeding.

But that just as easily works the other way, too.

I don't have a problem with it at all. Three games instead of two on that weekend, but I think it is a great dry run for the tournament atmosphere. And I do not think 18 to 22 year olds are so incredibly destroyed by a game against a 3 or 4 seed in conference played on Friday in between a 9 seed game and a 2 seed game, if you keep winning and get three games, that it is any real disadvantage for the next Thursday or Friday over any regular two games you would have played anyway. And I certainly wouldn't advocate taking that week off.
If you make the final, you play three games. If you make the final, you likely improve your seeding unless it was so high that you have to win (a 1 seed, basically). You would have played two games and travelled between cities if in Washington, Oregon, the Bay, or the Rockies every other year, unless you are the lucky team to end on your rival. I would think playing Thursday in SLC and Saturday in Boulder, or Thursday in Pullman and Saturday in Seattle, or Thursday in Corvallis and Saturday in Eugene would be much more of a pain in the ass than playing Wazzu, Stanford, then Oregon in three days in Vegas.

And, holy recruiting, especially if you are recruiting a Findlay kid or a Gorman kid...a home crowd at McKale is pretty impressive to a recruit, but what I have seen in the MGM, with 12,000 of 13,500 seats occupied by red clad Cats fans, shouting U of A against the band playing Rock n Roll II, carrying a fair buzz and generally being the hungry younger fans that do not always get into McKale, or may be living in Phoenix or LA or other west coast points and having a mini-reunion, there is nothing in the country right now that matches being a U of A fan, player, or recruit at the PAC 12 tournament. The old ACC tournament might be close, but it seems to be antiseptic these days. The Big 10 tournament has an impressive setting, but it cannot touch the fervor of the UA crowd at MGM.

I am looking forward to seeing the new arena, and it looks nice, but to be honest...I am going to miss the little dump at the MGM. The crowd was right on top of the court, the walk into the arena and out were a bit claustrophobic, but less so when you realize you are surrounded with Cats fans, and with no real upper deck, you could see the red clearly. The modern arena is more stale and removed from the action, and there will be more seats, so it will give other schools an opportunity to get people there.

But the last few years (I missed last year) have been a party. That Oregon win a couple of years ago was one of the more fun atmospheres I have ever been at for a game. It didn't hurt that Eastern Washington and the Cats made me my trip plus a grand in my pocket back across the border. But every year has been a reunion. I went in Staples, too, and I, personally enjoyed it. But it was a different vibe...I'd fly in Thursday morning, blue van it downtown, check in my luggage (usually at the old Grand) , pop my earbuds in and walk down to Staples to the premier section seats that were probably more than my entire cost of attendance at UA for Lakers games but were like $90 per session for the PAC tournament, and do what I love...watch basketball. There'd be no one there unless we were in the 4/5 game to start the day (we were a couple of times), and the arena would slowly fill to maybe 12,000 or so, which was empty in that place. Friday and Saturday weren't as enjoyable unless we were playing...I just like that tournament vibe. But it wasn't even close to being like Vegas.

[rgdeuce]

Its money whoring at the expense of the athletes and the conferences' top programs, specifically, us and UCLA. In its existance, I cant think of many Pac 12 teams who launched themselves into the tournament because of their conference tournament or had a significant jump in seeding. For the most part, you know what three teams are gonna win the damn thing, and u burn out and risk injury playing that many games in that many days at the end of a long season. The risk isnt worth the reward for the programs that matter. I just dont like them in general, teams have roughly 30 games to prove themselves, if you cant get it done in the regular season then have fun in the NIT. Im not about having elite ballplayers with NBA futures at our school or UCLA or Utah or Oregon risk their seasons and possibly careers for the longshot that an Oregon State, Arizona State or Washington State pulls off some miracle run. Or wearing guys out right before the tournament.

It may be fun for our fans, but it offers very little for us as a team. Especially when we are the ones (our fans) pumping in most of the money anyhow. I dont like them for any conference.