Best PG under Lute

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:19 pm

Coach starting internet fight.

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:37 pm

#1 Damon Stoudamire. Final Four, NBA ROY, $100MMaire. Classmate. Priest who Exorcised the Demons of ETSU/Santa Clara.

#2 Steve Kerr. Pretty good. Decent. Less than 1 TO per game. OK shooter. Made some 3s. Kind of boring and dull, not too bright...athleticism really helped cover low basketball IQ. Patron saint of Arizona Basketball.

#3 Chris Rodgers. Saw him at the rec center one day...will never be able to unsee his greatness.

(#2.1 - #2.999 not listed, include Jason Gardner, Mustafa Shakur, Kenny Lofton, Reggie Geary, etc)

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:51 pm

Not sure Kerr was a true PG.

Unlike this guy, best evah.

Jefe · Post by **Jefe** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:07 pm

Bayless 19.7P 4A 1S and then drafted
Bibby 13.5P 5A 2S 1Championship and then 17/5/2

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:28 pm

Did I forget Bibby, the guy that won a national title???

Since no fights were started (Friday afternoons suck), my actual three:

Bibby
Stoudamire
Kerr

Kerr ran the point on the team for sure. It wasn't McMillan, it wasn't Elliott, it wasn't Cook, and it wasn't Tolbert. We may have utilized a skilled team to share some of the load, but in any non-break situation, Kerr had the ball and was bringing it down the floor and initiating the offense.

Mike Bibby was amazing from day 1. The Tip Off game vs UNC was the evidence we needed that he was as special as expected, exactly one game into his UA career. When UNC countered one of our runs with one of their own, here comes our freshman PG, leading a team missing its expected leader (though Miles did pay his own way to the game)...he has a look on his face that is pained, then takes his hands palm down and signals to the team to calm down, while yelling the same. I cannot remember if it was that possession or the next that he canned a 3 in Cota's face, and we were off again. I think Bibby is the clear #1 because of that ring. But Damon was damn good, a 4 year player, and nearly as successful at the next level as Bibby (that ROY helps tip the scales close to even from Bibby's better overall profile). Kerr is 3 because he was an absolute all timer in protecting the dribble and making good decisions. While that team shared the load, he was still the point/initiator of the offense the vast majority of the time, and he simply never turned the ball over. His 4 to 1 a/to ratio was crazy.

Jerryd Bayless was amazing, but played half a season, was as much a SG as a PG, and didn't play for Lute, so...

Chris Rodgers had a few good games...

whatisee · Post by **whatisee** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:44 pm

Bibby is the only correct answer.

Jefe · Post by **Jefe** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:44 pm

EVCat wrote:Jerryd Bayless was amazing, but played half a season, was as much a SG as a PG, and didn't play for Lute, so...

Ha wow, thats right!

Bruins01 · Post by **Bruins01** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:28 pm

The Westbrook vs. Bayless arguments we used to have at TOS are some of my fondest memories of that place. You guys are crazy and irrational, in an interesting way. Except for jefe, who is crazy and irrational in dangerous and stupid ways.

Anyway, this is my vote for Damon Stoudamire. He was ridiculously good at Arizona. I know he didn't win a championship like Bibby did but did make it to a Final Four where he lost to the eventual champions, and he played all four years.

Bibby's last game at Arizona featured him getting eaten alive by Andre Miller. That was a fun game.

Wasn't Miles Simon technically the PG before Bibby arrived?

UAEebs86 · Post by **UAEebs86** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:34 pm

Geary pretty much ran the point (7 assists/game) the year between DStoud and Bibby.

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:46 pm

Bruins01 wrote: Anyway, this is my vote for Damon Stoudamire. He was ridiculously good at Arizona

If you listened to Lute's interview with Matt Muehlbach the other night, Lute might agree with you.

But they were talking about 50/40/90 guys. Looking up Damon's college stats, he was 51% 2PT, 40% 3PT, and 80% FT.

Maybe they were talking 50/40/80.

Kerr was 52/57/82, only 1 year with the 3 point line.

Bibby 51/39/73.

Of course those are all shooting stats, assists and turnovers are for PGs.

Not sure any of those guys topped Shakur's 6.9 APG as a senior.

WildcatStunner · Post by **WildcatStunner** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 5:27 pm

Nobody here wants to say Shakur?

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 5:31 pm

i don't really get the hate for shakur. he was a good solid pg for us for 4 years. better than anyone we've had since him since sort of TJ.

WildcatStunner · Post by **WildcatStunner** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:00 pm

ASUHATER! wrote:i don't really get the hate for shakur. he was a good solid pg for us for 4 years. better than anyone we've had since him since sort of TJ.

I don't understand the hate for him either. Sure, he had mental lapses, but he was solid. I guess most are upset at him not living up to expectations and the lofty ranking he had coming out of highschool.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:35 pm

ASUHATER! wrote:i don't really get the hate for shakur. he was a good solid pg for us for 4 years. better than anyone we've had since him since sort of TJ.

He was a decent pg when we thought we were getting a great pg. He also had the misfortune of being there during the crumbling of the foundation of the Lute era. He went from almost a final four as a soph to mediocre, disappointing seasons. The fall wasn't totally his fault, but how many guys from those two meh teams do we remember that fondly?

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:06 pm

ASUHATER! wrote:i don't really get the hate for shakur. he was a good solid pg for us for 4 years. better than anyone we've had since him since sort of TJ.

At that point, he was the worst starting point guard for Arizona in decades. We were spoiled from before Kerr to Gardner. We had no idea what was coming next, and we didn't even know off the early evaluation was for Nic Wise, whom we wrestled from the jaws of Rick Barnes. Obviously we'd have traded Shakur for any point guard before TJ.

wyo-cat · Post by **wyo-cat** » Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:13 pm

I've heard Ronnie Lester is sick and dying. He was a pretty damn good PG if memory serves me.

Plus, Mark Gannon was probably Lute's best guy on the baseline of the 1-3-1. Dude was a beast.

Bruins01 · Post by **Bruins01** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:59 am

Don't let the mediocrity of Shakur'a senior season make you forget how terrible his other three seasons were.

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:47 am

Shakur was never awful.

Bibby wasn't eaten alive by Miller. Bibby and Simon were removed by the not-to-be-named some and Mike D struggled. Even then, one game wouldn't define his career any more than one national title did. He was amazing and clutch.

I love Damon...my favorite UA player ever. And he is a strong #2 . Bibby was as clutch as any I have ever seen, tho, and while Damon usually shared duties, Bibby was the clear floor leader, even with Miles

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:59 am

Miles wasn't even backup PG. Some dude named Socks. We haven't been PGU since 2003.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:13 pm

If JT and Bibby weren't contemporaries, he would've been one of the greats. POY, AA after Bibby left. What a run of guards: Stoudamire, Reeves, Geary, Simon, Terry, Dickerson, Bibby, Arenas, Gardner, Salim.

Shakur's problem is that he was supposed to be on that level. Same with Chris Rodgers. Quite a falloff that didn't really end until TJ and Nick.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:49 pm

Bibby the only answer here

77HoyaCat4Ever · Post by **77HoyaCat4Ever** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:32 am

Bibby

Bibby

then Terry

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:23 am

Bibby has to be first, Gardner second.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:22 pm

rgdeuce wrote:Bibby the only answer here

I understand this position, but have always felt Damon was arguable and our most underrated Lute era PG by a long shot.

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:38 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:Bibby the only answer here
I understand this position, but have always felt Damon was arguable and our most underrated Lute era PG by a long shot.

So are you saying Damon was the best PG under Lute? And not just the most underrated?

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:47 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:Bibby the only answer here
I understand this position, but have always felt Damon was arguable and our most underrated Lute era PG by a long shot.

I think Damon is pretty comfortable at number 2. I dont think the gap between Bibby and Damon at 1 is drastic, but IMO, it is enough to where Bibby should be the comfortable answer with most people. Of course, how much comfort depends on if you are taking things as-is (4 years vs 2), or taking into account Bibby didn't have 4 years to become what he really could have and looking at what they did in the same points of their careers, or do you take both into account (which is what I do). Damon really took off when he was the man (with Ray Owes being option 2), or man #2 next to Khalid Reeves. Both of Bibby's years, he had two more alphas beside him in Simon and Dickerson, but in his sophomore season whose team was that? I mean the dude stole it from Miles f-cking Simon. I still think Bibby was the better facilitator. Damon had some clutch shots and maybe my view is being skewed by what Bibby did as a pro, but I view Bibby as the better clutch shooter. Their shooting is pretty close, with Damon's outstanding senior season being the outlier. Bibby was the better overall defender, by a fairly significant margin. Damon was obviously more exciting and electrifying being quicker and more dynamic with his dribble.

Regardless, with most Arizona teams, take out the point guard and ask yourself who would you rather have running that team, sophomore Mike Bibby or senior Damon Stoudamire. Do that with this team, what is your answer? Do that with Derrick Williams elite 8 team, what is your answer? Do that with the 2001 team, what is your answer? Or the 88 final four team, or any of the great teams TJ ran? The only one that makes me hesitate is the 1994 final four team, and maybe that is only because it featured Damon and he was so responsible for getting us there and it feels icky.

azpenguin · Post by **azpenguin** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:58 pm

Whether Stoudamire was the best PG under Lute can be debated, but that backcourt of him and Reeves was the best tandem Arizona's ever had. Those two were crazy good together.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:59 pm

Beachcat97 wrote:Bibby has to be first, Gardner second.

Gardner wasn't even the best "point" on his team his two upperclassmen years.

I'm a Gardner fan, but I also think he's the most overrated point guard in Arizona history.

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:06 pm

Luke Walton should be in the conversation.

KaibabKat · Post by **KaibabKat** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:30 pm

Shouldn't a point guard that plays over 32 minutes per game, has a 4.17 assist to turnover ratio, shoots 57.3 percent from three point range and leads his team to the final four be in the running here?

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:31 pm

Longhorned wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:Bibby the only answer here
I understand this position, but have always felt Damon was arguable and our most underrated Lute era PG by a long shot.
So are you saying Damon was the best PG under Lute? And not just the most underrated?

I would say Bibby/Damon are 1a and 1b, and I go back and forth about who was best. Damon doesn't seem to come up a lot, but he was excellent, headed a final four team and had a long, distinguished NBA career.

Bibby was also excellent and won a NC. That has to matter.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:47 pm

azpenguin wrote:Whether Stoudamire was the best PG under Lute can be debated, but that backcourt of him and Reeves was the best tandem Arizona's ever had. Those two were crazy good together.

Yep. 'Lid led the 1994 tourney in scoring. Damon was super, too, until that Arkansas game, 5-24. Reeves, 6-19.

Still only lost by 9. Very winnable.

Damon was the best scoring point, that's for sure. Depends on need. Bibby was perfect for that team.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:46 am

Disclaimer: I was only 6 when Sean Elliott left Arizona, so my memories of those teams is a blur. So for any time after that, that Reeves/Stoudamire team was the most exciting Arizona team I have ever seen. I went to pretty much every home game and McKale was consistently LOUD that year, and the game against the fab 5 after Chris Webber left was one of the loudest I have ever heard. Once in a lifetime backcourt and when the PA announcer would yell out Ray Owwwwwwwwwwwwwes after he dunked off a Damon Stoudamire ball handling and drive clinic and dish, the crowd would come unhinged. I was always an Arizona fan, but that was the team that made me obsessed with Arizona basketball. My mom never let me miss school unless I looked like I was going to die, but she let me skip it for the welcome home parade after they lost to Arkansas in the final four.

midnightx · Post by **midnightx** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:57 am

Bibby was the best point guard to wear a Wildcat uniform. Not to take anything away from all the other greats that played the position and did wonderful things for the program, but Bibby is number one.

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:11 am

Not the best, but arguably the most important was Craig McMillan. Lute's successful recruitment of such a highly rated point guard in California created a domino effect from the mid-80s onward.

84Cat · Post by **84Cat** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:18 am

Loved the 94 team. That back court was pretty much unstoppable.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:20 am

KaibabKat wrote:Shouldn't a point guard that plays over 32 minutes per game, has a 4.17 assist to turnover ratio, shoots 57.3 percent from three point range and leads his team to the final four be in the running here?

If he were a guy who broke down defenses and created shots for others, sure. But we didn't have a classic point that year (or the next). Epic sharing by everyone.

Kerr was a guy who took care of the ball and shot it great. Not a creator. Only had 9 more assists than the 2 (McMillan) and the 3 (Elliott), who were tied for second.

Elliott led the team. Did the same the next year, when Kerr and Mac left.

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:21 am

gumby wrote:
azpenguin wrote:Whether Stoudamire was the best PG under Lute can be debated, but that backcourt of him and Reeves was the best tandem Arizona's ever had. Those two were crazy good together.
Yep. 'Lid led the 1994 tourney in scoring. Damon was super, too, until that Arkansas game, 5-24. Reeves, 6-19.

Still only lost by 9. Very winnable.

Damon was the best scoring point, that's for sure. Depends on need. Bibby was perfect for that team.

Damon was having the Steve Kerr Final Four lid on the basket issue that game. Then, he hit the nearly half court pull up at the half and I thought "OK...that's what gets Damon going in the 2nd half".

But we never did. And Alex Dillard kept hitting 3s from farther and farther out for Arkansas...at one point, he pulled up on the Final Four logo on the side of the court and hit one. He stretched the defense on us.

That Michigan game mentioned earlier...I was courtside for that game, and the best part was the running shitfest Reggie Geary gave Jalen Rose. Some of the best trash talking ever. "Jalen...you an all-American. How many points you got? I'm nobody, and I am stopping you? C'mon All American...show me something...", just all game, all day. Jalen supposedly had a cold or the flu, but as anyone who has played sick knows, sometimes, for a single game, it can help in a way because you just don't think, just play. Reggie got up in Jalen's shirt and never let him go. And the break...late in the 2nd, we broke and Damon threw a ridiculous bounce pass half the court to Khalid. It was too far under the basket...no way Khalid, on a full run, could control and finish. Except he did. I think that may have pushed the lead to 40, or near that. It was crazy. I miss the old Fiesta Bowl Classic...

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:22 am

Chicat wrote:Luke Walton should be in the conversation.

Great, sevun more years of the curse!

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:38 am

EVCat wrote:
gumby wrote:
azpenguin wrote:Whether Stoudamire was the best PG under Lute can be debated, but that backcourt of him and Reeves was the best tandem Arizona's ever had. Those two were crazy good together.
Yep. 'Lid led the 1994 tourney in scoring. Damon was super, too, until that Arkansas game, 5-24. Reeves, 6-19.

Still only lost by 9. Very winnable.

Damon was the best scoring point, that's for sure. Depends on need. Bibby was perfect for that team.
Damon was having the Steve Kerr Final Four lid on the basket issue that game. Then, he hit the nearly half court pull up at the half and I thought "OK...that's what gets Damon going in the 2nd half".

But we never did. And Alex Dillard kept hitting 3s from farther and farther out for Arkansas...at one point, he pulled up on the Final Four logo on the side of the court and hit one. He stretched the defense on us.

That Michigan game mentioned earlier...I was courtside for that game, and the best part was the running shitfest Reggie Geary gave Jalen Rose. Some of the best trash talking ever. "Jalen...you an all-American. How many points you got? I'm nobody, and I am stopping you? C'mon All American...show me something...", just all game, all day. Jalen supposedly had a cold or the flu, but as anyone who has played sick knows, sometimes, for a single game, it can help in a way because you just don't think, just play. Reggie got up in Jalen's shirt and never let him go. And the break...late in the 2nd, we broke and Damon threw a ridiculous bounce pass half the court to Khalid. It was too far under the basket...no way Khalid, on a full run, could control and finish. Except he did. I think that may have pushed the lead to 40, or near that. It was crazy. I miss the old Fiesta Bowl Classic...

In the West Region in 1994, Mizzou was the one seed (they ran the table in the Big 8). Louisville was the 3.

Al McGuire was the analyst, and he was so matter of fact about Arizona winning the region because of the backcourt.

"Zona gawds ... just too good."

Beat Mizzou by 20. Damon was electric, especially in the first half. Ended up with 27 points and 11 rebounds.

P.S. Mizzou led by Devin Booker's dad, Melvin.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:46 am

EVCat wrote:
That Michigan game mentioned earlier...I was courtside for that game, and the best part was the running shitfest Reggie Geary gave Jalen Rose. Some of the best trash talking ever. "Jalen...you an all-American. How many points you got? I'm nobody, and I am stopping you? C'mon All American...show me something...", just all game, all day. Jalen supposedly had a cold or the flu, but as anyone who has played sick knows, sometimes, for a single game, it can help in a way because you just don't think, just play. Reggie got up in Jalen's shirt and never let him go. And the break...late in the 2nd, we broke and Damon threw a ridiculous bounce pass half the court to Khalid. It was too far under the basket...no way Khalid, on a full run, could control and finish. Except he did. I think that may have pushed the lead to 40, or near that. It was crazy. I miss the old Fiesta Bowl Classic...

I've heard that awesome story before so it must have come from you. LOL. What a game to have courtside seats. I remember during one of the timeouts one of the Michigan coaches saying something to Rose and he pulled away with the flailing arms and walked away like a spoiled brat. That game reminds me of the 2011 Duke game, losing a close one and then a switch flips and it was a royal ass kicking from then on. Reeves was unstoppable. God I hated the fab 5, although Bibby helped changed that with Webber at least.

I just looked at the final score, I remember it being way worse than 24 points. They must have had some garbage points late to get it closer that I am forgetting. What was it they used to do back in the day if the Cats scored 80 (or was it 90?) Free Thirstbusters? Jumbo Jacks? We had our free whatever locked up early.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:21 pm

In the two games of that Fiesta Bowl classic, Lid only missed 2 of his 25 shots.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:46 pm

I remember him making almost everything, but thats unreal.

KaibabKat · Post by **KaibabKat** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:06 pm

IOWA CITY, Iowa — Lute Olson coached some of college basketball’s best players at Arizona, especially at point guard.

But the Hall of Fame coach was emphatic about who was the best point guard he ever coached, and he played during his nine years at Iowa.

“At Arizona, we were known as Point Guard U,” Olson said. “But this guy (Ronnie Lester) is the best point guard that I’ve ever had the honor to coach and we had some great ones at Arizona...."

https://www.landof10.com/iowa/iowa-lute ... d-ive-ever

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:08 pm

Whats sad is I was running down my top 5 list in my head earlier and I completely forgot about TJ

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:42 pm

rgdeuce wrote:Whats sad is I was running down my top 5 list in my head earlier and I completely forgot about TJ

There are a lot of good ones. Bibby, Damon, Kerr, Terry, Gardner, Reeves...I love TJ, but it is hard to crack the top five.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:58 pm

Id take TJ over Gardner any day of the week. Always considered Reeves as a 2, for obvious reasons, even though thats what he played in the NBA

Harvey Specter · Post by **Harvey Specter** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:03 am

rgdeuce wrote:Id take TJ over Gardner any day of the week. Always considered Reeves as a 2, for obvious reasons, even though thats what he played in the NBA

Echo that,,, and twice on Sundays.

If you take scoring out of the picture (I know you cannot) I would say he was the best PG we've had.

And that includes Bibby. Heresy, I know...

Tought to put him above Bibby, Stoudamire, Terry, or Kerr.... but depending on the team he was on he might have been more valuable than a couple of them.

Puerco · Post by **Puerco** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:26 am

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Longhorned wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:Bibby the only answer here
I understand this position, but have always felt Damon was arguable and our most underrated Lute era PG by a long shot.
So are you saying Damon was the best PG under Lute? And not just the most underrated?
I would say Bibby/Damon are 1a and 1b, and I go back and forth about who was best. Damon doesn't seem to come up a lot, but he was excellent, headed a final four team and had a long, distinguished NBA career.

Bibby was also excellent and won a NC. That has to matter.

Bibby is clearly not the only answer to this question.

I understand Bibby won it all for us, but he never had a season like Stoudamire did. 23/7/4 and 47% from 3. I can't really even comprehend how you have the time to average 7 assists if you're scoring 23 a game. Add that to the fact the Damon stayed all four years, and he gets my vote. Bibby, Kerr, Jet, Gardner... That a nice 2-5 for any program. TJ's in there somewhere -- but for me his performances are still to fresh to really place them with the other greats.

Harvey Specter · Post by **Harvey Specter** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:21 am

gumby wrote:If JT and Bibby weren't contemporaries, he would've been one of the greats. POY, AA after Bibby left. What a run of guards: Stoudamire, Reeves, Geary, Simon, Terry, Dickerson, Bibby, Arenas, Gardner, Salim.

Shakur's problem is that he was supposed to be on that level. Same with Chris Rodgers. Quite a falloff that didn't really end until TJ and Nick.

Loved Geary as a Cat, but always thought his effectiveness was wildly over-romanticized in retrospect by many of us old Cat Fans. I think he is the "one of these things is not like the others" name on that list.

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