2017-2018 Arizona Basketball

[Bear Down Vegas]

One positive I see emerge out of the fiasco of last week is that I believe the coaches have gotten the players' attention. I also believe pride will get the team more focused. I have a growing belief that the team is going to come out on fire. And that the A&M game will be their best game of the season because now they have the proverbial chip on their shoulder and will play with an intensity we haven't seen all season. The kick in the pants will get them going, and they have something to prove.

Welcome to the initiation of college basketball freshmen. Now, time to grow.

Seconded.

And to Machina's reply - Kentucky has gone through this at least twice under Coach Cal. I feel like I keep saying this but we have a handful of players we need to play well - who are 18 & 19 years old. Our best player is still a kid. Akot came out of HS a YEAR EARLY. I'm finding it hard to understand why some of these facts are so easily discarded while we as a collective whole of fans throw our hands in the air & our very good coach & some players under the bus.

It's very possible this team isn't put together well & we're going to continue to struggle. I don't think it's very much less likely that a group of talented kids are going to figure it out.

[CatFanOneMil]

One positive I see emerge out of the fiasco of last week is that I believe the coaches have gotten the players' attention. I also believe pride will get the team more focused. I have a growing belief that the team is going to come out on fire. And that the A&M game will be their best game of the season because now they have the proverbial chip on their shoulder and will play with an intensity we haven't seen all season. The kick in the pants will get them going, and they have something to prove.

Welcome to the initiation of college basketball freshmen. Now, time to grow.

That is great if true. But if it is then why doesn't Coach K go through issues like this? Why is Miller brining in guys who don't just go out and compete and win day one? If it isn't true then it is very concerning as well.

What is coach K fucking 80?

I really get tired of people comparing our program and coach to Duke, or UK...

Roll the tape back 40 years and YES coach K had the same kinds of problems Miller is having now...frankly he has less of them than the other guys...

I honestly do not know of a coach this young in his career that can boast the record in a major conference that Miller can...but I'm not gonna go crunch the numbers either.

Lets just stop comparing Miller to guys who have been doing it twice as long in vintage blueblood programs, Miller basically had to start from scratch, and that was only 9 years ago.

He's not coach K or Calapari or Lute and the game has changed since he got here as well...Lute didn't really have to deal with a one and done era, and if you track Calapari his record there fluctuates as well...

Duke has the advantage of having a very storied history and recruits go there purely for the name...we are not there yet and that metric for Duke WILL change...K won't be there forever and once he goes you can be pretty sure the reputation and recruits will go as well...try yo remember Duke never had Russel Penn or O'Neill as coaches in the middle of a rebuild.

I really get sick of the comparisons though.

[Spaceman Spiff]

One positive I see emerge out of the fiasco of last week is that I believe the coaches have gotten the players' attention. I also believe pride will get the team more focused. I have a growing belief that the team is going to come out on fire. And that the A&M game will be their best game of the season because now they have the proverbial chip on their shoulder and will play with an intensity we haven't seen all season. The kick in the pants will get them going, and they have something to prove.

Welcome to the initiation of college basketball freshmen. Now, time to grow.

That is great if true. But if it is then why doesn't Coach K go through issues like this? Why is Miller brining in guys who don't just go out and compete and win day one? If it isn't true then it is very concerning as well.

Duke has gone through issues like this. So has Kentucky. Plus, it's concerning Miller might not be as good as the best coach in modern college basketball?

[PHXCATS]

One positive I see emerge out of the fiasco of last week is that I believe the coaches have gotten the players' attention. I also believe pride will get the team more focused. I have a growing belief that the team is going to come out on fire. And that the A&M game will be their best game of the season because now they have the proverbial chip on their shoulder and will play with an intensity we haven't seen all season. The kick in the pants will get them going, and they have something to prove.

Welcome to the initiation of college basketball freshmen. Now, time to grow.

That is great if true. But if it is then why doesn't Coach K go through issues like this? Why is Miller brining in guys who don't just go out and compete and win day one? If it isn't true then it is very concerning as well.

What is coach K fucking 80?

I really get tired of people comparing our program and coach to Duke, or UK...

Roll the tape back 40 years and YES coach K had the same kinds of problems Miller is having now...frankly he has less of them than the other guys...

I honestly do not know of a coach this young in his career that can boast the record in a major conference that Miller can...but I'm not gonna go crunch the numbers either.

Lets just stop comparing Miller to guys who have been doing it twice as long in vintage blueblood programs, Miller basically had to start from scratch, and that was only 9 years ago.

He's not coach K or Calapari or Lute and the game has changed since he got here as well...Lute didn't really have to deal with a one and done era, and if you track Calapari his record there fluctuates as well...

Duke has the advantage of having a very storied history and recruits go there purely for the name...we are not there yet and that metric for Duke WILL change...K won't be there forever and once he goes you can be pretty sure the reputation and recruits will go as well...try yo remember Duke never had Russel Penn or O'Neill as coaches in the middle of a rebuild.

I really get sick of the comparisons though.

So you are okay just sitting back and winning the PAC-12 every other year and never getting to the final four, great.

Duke has more freshman playing more minutes and they are not going through these issues. Sure Coach K is more experienced than Miller, but we need to act like, have the same values and goals as, and compete with Duke, not be afraid of them.

[PHXCATS]

One positive I see emerge out of the fiasco of last week is that I believe the coaches have gotten the players' attention. I also believe pride will get the team more focused. I have a growing belief that the team is going to come out on fire. And that the A&M game will be their best game of the season because now they have the proverbial chip on their shoulder and will play with an intensity we haven't seen all season. The kick in the pants will get them going, and they have something to prove.

Welcome to the initiation of college basketball freshmen. Now, time to grow.

That is great if true. But if it is then why doesn't Coach K go through issues like this? Why is Miller brining in guys who don't just go out and compete and win day one? If it isn't true then it is very concerning as well.

Duke has gone through issues like this. So has Kentucky. Plus, it's concerning Miller might not be as good as the best coach in modern college basketball?

When did Duke last lose three in a row when picked top 5 preseason? All three when they were favored? Two to unranked teams?

It might be concerning if this did not get the players attention. If this did not solve the focus issue of the team then it is very concerning.

[Spaceman Spiff]

One positive I see emerge out of the fiasco of last week is that I believe the coaches have gotten the players' attention. I also believe pride will get the team more focused. I have a growing belief that the team is going to come out on fire. And that the A&M game will be their best game of the season because now they have the proverbial chip on their shoulder and will play with an intensity we haven't seen all season. The kick in the pants will get them going, and they have something to prove.

Welcome to the initiation of college basketball freshmen. Now, time to grow.

That is great if true. But if it is then why doesn't Coach K go through issues like this? Why is Miller brining in guys who don't just go out and compete and win day one? If it isn't true then it is very concerning as well.

Duke has gone through issues like this. So has Kentucky. Plus, it's concerning Miller might not be as good as the best coach in modern college basketball?

When did Duke last lose three in a row when picked top 5 preseason? All three when they were favored? Two to unranked teams?

It might be concerning if this did not get the players attention. If this did not solve the focus issue of the team then it is very concerning.

Duke's 2015 NC team got beat down in 2 straight games by NCSU and Miami. Last year they dropped 3 of 4 to NCSU, FSU and Louisville. 2015-16 they dropped 3 straight to Clemson, ND and Syracuse.

So basically all of the last three years they've had a comparable losong streak. They were definitely top 5 two of those years and I forget year 3.

[Bear Down Vegas]

Sure Coach K is more experienced than Miller, but we need to act like, have the same values and goals as, and compete with Duke, not be afraid of them.

Quick tip. Think about what you post two or three times before you submit.

NO ONE is afraid of Duke. The posts you quoted & are replying to didn't come close to saying or even implying that.

[Alieberman]

It really is bizarre that Machinafootballfan is the polar opposite of Machinabasketballfan.

[PHXCATS]

Sure Coach K is more experienced than Miller, but we need to act like, have the same values and goals as, and compete with Duke, not be afraid of them.

Quick tip. Think about what you post two or three times before you submit.

NO ONE is afraid of Duke. The posts you quoted & are replying to didn't come close to saying or even implying that.

Clearly Million is.

I don't get how we want to be national champions but are afraid to do what it takes to become champions.

[PHXCATS]

Football is miles behind basketball. Not fair to have the same expectations and goals at this point.

And you are clearly missing where I demanding 9 wins from RR next year and wanted RR gone last year

[YoDeFoe]

PHX continuing to derail the conversation is annoying as fuck.

[RondaeShimmy]

Last year duke was clear preseason no. 1, by far (arizona was no. 10)

http://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men ... ansas-lead" target="_blank

They lost 9 games total, they lost to South Carolina in the S16

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/sc ... /2017.html" target="_blank

Kentucky has done something similar as that 2016-2017 Duke team numerous times, choose which year.

Maybe they didn't lose 3 straight games in 3 days but it happens, top preseason top 3 teams struggling

It's not a surprise that when K started loading up with one and dones he's had teams that took time to gel

[PHXCATS]

Last year duke was clear preseason no. 1, by far (arizona was no. 10)

http://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men ... ansas-lead" target="_blank

They lost 9 games total, they lost to South Carolina in the S16

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/sc ... /2017.html" target="_blank

Kentucky has done pretty much something similar as that 2016-2017 Duke team numerous times, choose which year.

Maybe they didn't lose 3 straight games in 3 days but it happens, top preseason top 3 teams struggling

It's not a surprise that when K started loading up with one and dones he's had teams that took time to gel

I am concerned but I am confident that if Miller adjusts things will get turned around. Lets hope thats all it takes and that Miller can deliver a clear gameplan and message for the players.

[CatFanOneMil]

Sure Coach K is more experienced than Miller, but we need to act like, have the same values and goals as, and compete with Duke, not be afraid of them.

Quick tip. Think about what you post two or three times before you submit.

NO ONE is afraid of Duke. The posts you quoted & are replying to didn't come close to saying or even implying that.

Clearly Million is.

I don't get how we want to be national champions but are afraid to do what it takes to become champions.

Well from what I am reading of your responses the only way to become National Champions is to have coach K.

Good luck with that strategy.

My response to you was about comparing Miller to OTHER programs and I clearly did not limit it to Duke, but that point went over your sunburned little head.

[PHXCATS]

Sure Coach K is more experienced than Miller, but we need to act like, have the same values and goals as, and compete with Duke, not be afraid of them.

Quick tip. Think about what you post two or three times before you submit.

NO ONE is afraid of Duke. The posts you quoted & are replying to didn't come close to saying or even implying that.

Clearly Million is.

I don't get how we want to be national champions but are afraid to do what it takes to become champions.

Well from what I am reading of your responses the only way to become National Champions is to have coach K.

Good luck with that strategy.

My response to you was about comparing Miller to OTHER programs and I clearly did not limit it to Duke, but that point went over your sunburned little head.

Good burn, pun intended.

Point is, UA should be competing with the tier above them and having those expectations and goals and values and not accepting less than that. Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina, Duke. Dont act like someone okay winning the PAC and that it, none of those schools would be

[YoDeFoe]

I think we're all in general agreement that:

* Arizona has not met expectations, and that "less than our potential" feeling dates back to the early 2000's.

* Pointing to one of three or four legendary coaches and saying "why not us" probably isn't instructive or useful.

* We believe Miller can get us there but we recognize some of Miller's strengths (defensive focus, intensity, recruiting) may also be some of what holds him and us back.

No need to antagonize each other over the above. It is what it is. Let's please get back to talking about how the team is performing this season and what we can project in the near term.

[PHXCATS]

I think we're all in general agreement that:

* Arizona has not met expectations, and that "less than our potential" feeling dates back to the early 2000's.

* Pointing to one of three or four legendary coaches and saying "why not us" probably isn't instructive or useful.

* We believe Miller can get us there but we recognize some of Miller's strengths (defensive focus, intensity, recruiting) may also be some of what holds him and us back.

No need to antagonize each other over the above. It is what it is. Let's please get back to talking about how the team is performing this season and what we can project in the near term.

All fair and good.

What I really want to see tomorrow is obviously better execution, but if the guys just are a little behind getting to where Miller wants, things will be okay, but I still GOT TO SEE better fight and effort. Show no mercy on LBSU. Beat them by 30. Fight like Wildcats.

[SCCats]

It really is bizarre that Machinafootballfan is the polar opposite of Machinabasketballfan.

He's able to be whatever is necessary to stir up the most bullshit

[YoDeFoe]

What I really want to see tomorrow is obviously better execution, but if the guys just are a little behind getting to where Miller wants, things will be okay, but I still GOT TO SEE better fight and effort. Show no mercy on LBSU. Beat them by 30. Fight like Wildcats.

I really hope we do. Do we have a checklist of things we need to see improvement on? I'll offer:

Ayton's rim protection and offensive rebounding.

Ira Lee fouling less.

Barcello getting the ball in the hoop.

Ristic not getting lost on hedges.

[PHXCATS]

What I really want to see tomorrow is obviously better execution, but if the guys just are a little behind getting to where Miller wants, things will be okay, but I still GOT TO SEE better fight and effort. Show no mercy on LBSU. Beat them by 30. Fight like Wildcats.

I really hope we do. Do we have a checklist of things we need to see improvement on? I'll offer:

Ayton's rim protection and offensive rebounding.

Ira Lee fouling less.

Barcello getting the ball in the hoop.

Ristic not getting lost on hedges.

Pinder playing more in control and less fouls

Trier looking to get his teammates involved (subject to change if everyone else is timid or Trier is hot or crunch time down a little)

Better movement without the ball when Ayton is double teamed without the ball. If a man is on the ball handler, and Ayton is doubled, lots of open 3s or cuts to the rim opposite side of Ayton should be available.

[loomer]

Miller said Ristic’s minutes are going to increase. The 7-footer didn’t play a whole lot in the Bahamas because Miller felt the opponents’ small-ball approach was a difficult matchup to play Ayton and Ristic at the same time.

“I don’t think (Ristic has) ever played better basketball in practice and in games. At first you wondered how Deandre and him would co-exist, but Deandre can guard a four-man. As a matter of fact, he was the best at guarding a face-up four.

“I think we’ve learned more and more about Deandre defensively and I’m looking forward to getting those two guys clicking more on offense and using that to our advantage because if you look at Dusan’s efficiency right now, it’s off the charts. That will do nothing but continue.”

[YoDeFoe]

Miller said Ristic’s minutes are going to increase. The 7-footer didn’t play a whole lot in the Bahamas because Miller felt the opponents’ small-ball approach was a difficult matchup to play Ayton and Ristic at the same time.

“I don’t think (Ristic has) ever played better basketball in practice and in games. At first you wondered how Deandre and him would co-exist, but Deandre can guard a four-man. As a matter of fact, he was the best at guarding a face-up four.

“I think we’ve learned more and more about Deandre defensively and I’m looking forward to getting those two guys clicking more on offense and using that to our advantage because if you look at Dusan’s efficiency right now, it’s off the charts. That will do nothing but continue.”

LOL I was so fucking wrong when I said Miller was going to move Ristic to back-up Ayton at the five only, wasn't I?

Yes, Ristic is very very efficient on offense. He's got a 142 ORtg so far this year. He's not a good defender or rebounder.

If Ayton was a defensive beast that could cover up for Ristic, then sure. But he's not. Maybe we get there but for now this is going to be ugly.

[RondaeShimmy]

Miller said Ristic’s minutes are going to increase. The 7-footer didn’t play a whole lot in the Bahamas because Miller felt the opponents’ small-ball approach was a difficult matchup to play Ayton and Ristic at the same time.

“I don’t think (Ristic has) ever played better basketball in practice and in games. At first you wondered how Deandre and him would co-exist, but Deandre can guard a four-man. As a matter of fact, he was the best at guarding a face-up four.

“I think we’ve learned more and more about Deandre defensively and I’m looking forward to getting those two guys clicking more on offense and using that to our advantage because if you look at Dusan’s efficiency right now, it’s off the charts. That will do nothing but continue.”

lol, wait where is this from?!

[loomer]

Miller said Ristic’s minutes are going to increase. The 7-footer didn’t play a whole lot in the Bahamas because Miller felt the opponents’ small-ball approach was a difficult matchup to play Ayton and Ristic at the same time.

“I don’t think (Ristic has) ever played better basketball in practice and in games. At first you wondered how Deandre and him would co-exist, but Deandre can guard a four-man. As a matter of fact, he was the best at guarding a face-up four.

“I think we’ve learned more and more about Deandre defensively and I’m looking forward to getting those two guys clicking more on offense and using that to our advantage because if you look at Dusan’s efficiency right now, it’s off the charts. That will do nothing but continue.”

Wait where is this from?!

https://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketbal ... ins-return

Another nugget:

Deandre Ayton is averaging 12 rebounds per game, but no one else is averaging more than 5.8 and Arizona ranks 283rd in defensive rebounding percentage in the country, hence why Miller sees it as an area of improvement.

“We have to support Deandre’s defensive rebounding as a team. Everybody. SMU beat us because they got second shots. Their guards, their wings beat us up on the glass. There were some key plays there where they got to the ball, got second shots, got third shots and when you give teams like them that many chances, you lose.

They shot 70 times against us, we shot 49. It’s amazing that it was a close game. Our defense was actually better in that game if you judge us on first-shot defense or how many times they missed or how hard we played, it was probably the best performance of the three, but we didn’t finish the possession.

Our teams traditionally have done a great job defensive rebounding. It’s built to make it so that we get that rebound, and some of the games we’ve won that have been our biggest victories started with our ability to dominate the glass.

“[Defensive rebounding and transition defense] aren’t two exciting things to talk about but those are some things that from an accountability standpoint, things we gotta get better at right now. It’s the beginning of the possession, getting back, and at the end of the possession: (giving up just) one shot. ... If we do those two things I think you’ll see we’ll improve in a lot of areas."

[RondaeShimmy]

One thing Miller said he learned in the Bahamas is that Ayton and Dusan Ristic need more touches.

The duo is averaging 11 made field goals per game while shooting over 60 percent

“It makes sense for our team to give them the ball. Good things are going to happen. Part of what’s going to open up the 3-point line and easier shots for our perimeter (players) is to get them the ball in scoring position. To throw it to them when they’re open, that when we have the option of running our set plays and our transition game to never miss them and let them put fouls on the other team and shoot 60 percent and kick it out when it’s needed. I think that will give us a lot more balance.

“You look at Allonzo, it’s really difficult to guard somebody like Allonzo when he has two bigs in the game who can score. We always talk about matching up against smaller teams, they also have to match up against us. I think we have to do an overall better job of utilizing those two guys around the basket and everything we do. What did you learn in the Bahamas? We learned that.”

.

Miller said Ristic’s minutes are going to increase. The 7-footer didn’t play a whole lot in the Bahamas because Miller felt the opponents’ small-ball approach was a difficult matchup to play Ayton and Ristic at the same time.

so he doesn't expect other teams to keep beating arizona doing the same thing for the rest for season?? in the tournament??

especially when almost every college team plays small

so no adjustments? playing ristic more is the solution? if he scores twelve points does that offsett getting shredded defensively?

this is going to be a really frustrating season ahead

[RiseAndFire]

Defensive Woes

What the heck is going on, players?
Dismayed about Ayton and his defense at the rim. Sure, he spends 90% of the time on defense out at the perimeter following his man around because pack-line, but he's 7'0, why can't he also defend the rim at the same time? His arms are long enough! overrated

It is also hard to believe that after 4 years under Miller that Ristic has STILL not attained Aaron Gordon's athleticism and ability to hedge and recover quickly. Damn you Ristic - y u no Aaron Gordon?!

Hopefully by NCAA tourney time Ayton will improve his ability to be in two places at the same time and Ristic will be Aaron Gordon.
/sarcasm off

[YoDeFoe]

Defensive Woes

What the heck is going on, players?
Dismayed about Ayton and his defense at the rim. Sure, he spends 90% of the time on defense out at the perimeter following his man around because pack-line, but he's 7'0, why can't he also defend the rim at the same time? His arms are long enough! overrated

It is also hard to believe that after 4 years under Miller that Ristic has STILL not attained Aaron Gordon's athleticism and ability to hedge and recover quickly. Damn you Ristic - y u no Aaron Gordon?!

Hopefully by NCAA tourney time Ayton will improve his ability to be in two places at the same time and Ristic will be Aaron Gordon.
/sarcasm off

Why even make this post.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Defensive Woes

What the heck is going on, players?
Dismayed about Ayton and his defense at the rim. Sure, he spends 90% of the time on defense out at the perimeter following his man around because pack-line, but he's 7'0, why can't he also defend the rim at the same time? His arms are long enough! overrated

It is also hard to believe that after 4 years under Miller that Ristic has STILL not attained Aaron Gordon's athleticism and ability to hedge and recover quickly. Damn you Ristic - y u no Aaron Gordon?!

Hopefully by NCAA tourney time Ayton will improve his ability to be in two places at the same time and Ristic will be Aaron Gordon.
/sarcasm off

Why even make this post.

He trolls when things are down for Arizona. That's it and all.

[gumby]

Football is miles behind basketball. Not fair to have the same expectations and goals at this point.

And you are clearly missing where I demanding 9 wins from RR next year and wanted RR gone last year

Keep demanding!

[Jefe]

Trier
Alkins
Randolph
Lee
Ayton

gimme gimme

still holding out for a mid season transfer PG thats eligible right away

[PieceOfMeat]

so no adjustments?

"Do what we do"

[gumby]

Trier
Alkins
Randolph
Lee
Ayton

gimme gimme

still holding out for a mid season transfer PG thats eligible right away

Problems go beyond the right lineup.

[Bear Down Vegas]

Trier
Alkins
Randolph
Lee
Ayton

gimme gimme

still holding out for a mid season transfer PG thats eligible right away

Problems go beyond the right lineup.

You're one of my fav posters gumby & I want to ask this respectfully. (Also to add I probably would know the answer to this question if I read everything more thoroughly & had better retention...)

Are you saying that it's a mix of an ideal lineup, mixed with different coaching decisions? Or worse even, that it's a lost cause?

[Longhorned]

Trier
Alkins
Randolph
Lee
Ayton

gimme gimme

still holding out for a mid season transfer PG thats eligible right away

Problems go beyond the right lineup.

Your point in the other thread about the packline for this roster makes sense, and suggests a problem with a longstanding narrative on this board.

On the one hand, there's the argument that the packline is suitable for mid-major talent, but carries an opportunity cost for a team with elite "horses" who should be allowed to defend man-to-man in an open floor where they turn the offense over. And then we can supposedly get out running on the resulting break, instead of the plodding offense that results from our densely packed defensive set around the paint when we grab the board off a miss.

On the other hand, there's the argument that the current players aren't capable defenders, and Miller should remove his senior point guard and senior center, whereby we still have to deal with Trier's and Ayton's and whoever else's defensive limitations. Shouldn't those limitations point to the need for a system that's able to shore up the deficiencies of less talented players?

No matter how the starting lineup gets tweaked, it would seem that the primary concern be the positioning and coordination of defenders in a system where shared responsibilities aim to deny penetration and prevent layups and open 3-pointers. But the packline takes a famously long time to master. Too bad we're so deep into November.

Whatever the answer, I think it's best to take our hypothetical solutions to this team's problems with a grain of salt. Maybe there is something to Miller's unpopular notion that the problem isn't certain players, but rather what those individuals aren't doing yet in relation to their roles within the system. It's easy to say Miller is stubborn. But it's harder than we think to expect easy solutions to address the real problems on this team.

[YoDeFoe]

Your point in the other thread about the packline for this roster makes sense, and suggests a problem with a longstanding narrative on this board.

On the one hand, there's the argument that the packline is suitable for mid-major talent, but carries an opportunity cost for a team with elite "horses" who should be allowed to defend man-to-man in an open floor where they turn the offense over. And then we can supposedly get out running on the resulting break, instead of the plodding offense that results from our densely packed defensive set around the paint when we grab the board off a miss.

On the other hand, there's the argument that the current players aren't capable defenders, and Miller should remove his senior point guard and senior center, whereby we still have to deal with Trier's and Ayton's and whoever else's defensive limitations. Shouldn't those limitations point to the need for a system that's able to shore up the deficiencies of less talented players?

No matter how the starting lineup gets tweaked, it would seem that the primary concern be the positioning and coordination of defenders in a system where shared responsibilities aim to deny penetration and prevent layups and open 3-pointers. But the packline takes a famously long time to master. Too bad we're so deep into November.

Whatever the answer, I think it's best to take our hypothetical solutions to this team's problems with a grain of salt. Maybe there is something to Miller's unpopular notion that the problem isn't certain players, but rather what those individuals aren't doing yet in relation to their roles within the system. It's easy to say Miller is stubborn. But it's harder than we think to expect easy solutions to address the real problems on this team.

Excellent post.

[RiseAndFire]

it's plain to see that we have a few players that are liabilities defensively, not executing Millers impenetrable defense properly and resulting in some random player reaching a career high in scoring each game. This is a first for Az basketball under Miller, something never before witnessed.

If only some basketball genius could devise a defensive scheme that could hide or compensate for those defensive liabilities so they aren't routinely abused in a given matchup!

oh well, that probably doesnt exist anywhere

[YoDeFoe]

it's plain to see that we have a few players that are liabilities defensively, not executing Millers impenetrable defense properly and resulting in some random player reaching a career high in scoring each game. This is a first for Az basketball under Miller, something never before witnessed.

If only some basketball genius could devise a defensive scheme that could hide or compensate for those defensive liabilities so they aren't routinely abused in a given matchup!

oh well, that probably doesnt exist anywhere

Why are you such a whiny bitch?

[YoDeFoe]

Do we often get burned by some team getting hot from the outside or from some guard going gangbusters with dribble penetration? Looking at the record, clearly no.

But are those driving factors in our few losses? Yes, clearly.

Every defense has flaws that can exploited. A pack-line requires strong perimeter defenders to keep attackers on the three point line, and it requires communication for good rotation and closeouts. When those don't happen, we get burned.

If we played a two three zone we'd be crying about all the times we got burned by outside shooting and talented forwards exploiting the free throw line and capable guards dicing up the zone and transition defense getting exploited before the zone can be established and getting out rebounded and not using our athletic players to the best of their abilities and not developing guys for the NBA (and thereby losing recruits who see developing for the league as an imperative).

If we played a press then we'd be freaking out over all the times that our guys ran out of steam late in a game and our transition press getting beat and the easy open looks when the other team has numbers on us and how demoralizing it is to run your ass off in a press and see the other team throw up ally oops while we're still catching our breath.

There's no silver bullet here. I think (hope) we all know that.

Would I like to see Miller mix it up? Absolutely. I've seen us win games with late pressing and trapping. I've seen us win games by throwing a double team into the post to post trap. And of course I've seen other teams win by mixing it up. We've talked about it a lot since last year's early tournament exit, as well as the recent failure at Atlantis.

My point is: don't post some angsty bullshit about "if only Miller listened to me, I've got all the ideas on how to make this work." Our D usually works. Every team can point to losses and say "we didn't do this or that well on D and that's a habitual problem for our scheme." Regarding mixing it up... I hope we do, but I also recognize that we need guys to know how to do the bread and butter defense before we roll out the buffet. Like Longhorned said: maybe these guys really are just a work in progress, more so than years past, and we need to suck it up and wait it out.

[CatFanOneMil]

Do we often get burned by some team getting hot from the outside or from some guard going gangbusters with dribble penetration? Looking at the record, clearly no.

But are those driving factors in our few losses? Yes, clearly.

Every defense has flaws that can exploited. A pack-line requires strong perimeter defenders to keep attackers on the three point line, and it requires communication for good rotation and closeouts. When those don't happen, we get burned.

If we played a two three zone we'd be crying about all the times we got burned by outside shooting and talented forwards exploiting the free throw line and capable guards dicing up the zone and transition defense getting exploited before the zone can be established and getting out rebounded and not using our athletic players to the best of their abilities and not developing guys for the NBA (and thereby losing recruits who see developing for the league as an imperative).

If we played a press then we'd be freaking out over all the times that our guys ran out of steam late in a game and our transition press getting beat and the easy open looks when the other team has numbers on us and how demoralizing it is to run your ass off in a press and see the other team throw up ally oops while we're still catching our breath.

There's no silver bullet here. I think (hope) we all know that.

Would I like to see Miller mix it up? Absolutely. I've seen us win games with late pressing and trapping. I've seen us win games by throwing a double team into the post to post trap. And of course I've seen other teams win by mixing it up. We've talked about it a lot since last year's early tournament exit, as well as the recent failure at Atlantis.

My point is: don't post some angsty bullshit about "if only Miller listened to me, I've got all the ideas on how to make this work." Our D usually works. Every team can point to losses and say "we didn't do this or that well on D and that's a habitual problem for our scheme." Regarding mixing it up... I hope we do, but I also recognize that we need guys to know how to do the bread and butter defense before we roll out the buffet. Like Longhorned said: maybe these guys really are just a work in progress, more so than years past, and we need to suck it up and wait it out.

co-signed.

At this point in college Basketball the wise path forward is pack-line defense or straight man-to-man...DEFENSE is the ONLY thing these guys are here to learn, they will NEVER see zone in the NBA which is where MOST of our recruits THINK they are going.

You don't see Syracuse knocking it out of the park in recruiting with one and dones lining up to play zone.

Every time you implement zone you take a small incremental hit in recruiting. We can afford no such hits at this point.

Even "mixing it up" is not going to really help these guys if they are having a hard time learning the system we already have in place.

The issue is purely defense, transition and pack line, once we fix those two areas we good.

[Beachcat97]

You don't see Syracuse knocking it out of the park in recruiting with one and dones lining up to play zone.

No, you don't. But even without the glut of elite recruits, Boeheim has gotten to three FFs and won a national title since our last FF trip. Pretty sure that zone has something to do with it.

[Catintheheat]

Two points I want to make.

1. Design your team to your strengths. The Cats, overall, are a very athletic team this year and like to run. We do have depth so maybe we should play at a faster pace, and also design the defense around this. If we are going to get burned often on defense anyway, ratchet up the pressure. Maybe turnovers will lead to more opportunities, and we won't have to defend as often (or rebound). The point is adjust to the talent you have. If you are going to have a lot of one-and-dones then perhaps implementing a system that takes a lot of time to master isn't the answer.

2. In today's game I believe it is more important to teach players how to read offenses and defenses instead of playing in a specific type of system. Learn the game in all its aspects and adjust accordingly to what is happening on the floor. Don't just pound the same system in players' heads over and over but learn to mix it up. The motion offense is dedicated to reading the defense and making the right decision on the floor. Work more on teaching this skill both offensively and defensively. Aren't drills set up to making quick reads?

Just an idea. I think basketball players would really benefit from an awareness meditation class where they become aware of what is going on in the periphery. I believe it will help them see the flow of the game better, especially the strategies of their opponent, including their strengths and weaknesses, and to adjust accordingly. I believe court awareness is one of the most valuable skills a player can possess, and ability to adjust on the fly to what they see.

[CatFanOneMil]

You don't see Syracuse knocking it out of the park in recruiting with one and dones lining up to play zone.

No, you don't. But even without the glut of elite recruits, Boeheim has gotten to three FFs and won a national title since our last FF trip. Pretty sure that zone has something to do with it.

MAYBE.

I think we are all fucking predicting the weather here regarding FF's.

NO.ONE.KNOWS.WHAT.YOUR.TEAM.WILL.DO.THEN...NO fuckingone.

You've also seen Syracuse crash and burn with that exact same zone so the data is inconclusive as far as I'm concerned. (January just last year to be exact, they got beat by an average Boston College team)

Here's Boeheim sounding exactly like Miller:
"We haven't had a good defensive effort against anybody," Boeheim said. "And now we've played 14 games. If our defense wasn't better by now, it's a long shot that it's going to get a lot better. It's not just a little bit off. It's so far off that it looks like we haven't worked on the defensive end. And we've spent most of our time on it. So, that's a problem that is hard to correct at this stage. We'll go back and work on it and try to be better defensively."

Take your fantasy "zone works for Syracuse all the time" and sell it somewhere else.

[Beachcat97]

Take your fantasy "zone works for Syracuse all the time" and sell it somewhere else.

Since '01, whose track record would you prefer, Boeheim's or Lute/KO/RP/Miller's?

[PHXCATS]

Take your fantasy "zone works for Syracuse all the time" and sell it somewhere else.

Since '01, whose track record would you prefer, Boeheim's or Lute/KO/RP/Miller's?

Boeheim and Syracuse a million times a million times.

And Maryland and Gary Williams
and UCONN and Jim Calhoun
And North Carolina and Roy Williams
And Florida and Billy Donovan
And Kansas and Bill Self
And Duke and Mike Krzyzewski
and Kentucky and John Calipari
And Louisville and Rick Pitino (someone who can truly win and vacate
and UCONN and Kevin Ollie
And Villanova and Jay Wright

[gumby]

Trier
Alkins
Randolph
Lee
Ayton

gimme gimme

still holding out for a mid season transfer PG thats eligible right away

Problems go beyond the right lineup.

You're one of my fav posters gumby & I want to ask this respectfully. (Also to add I probably would know the answer to this question if I read everything more thoroughly & had better retention...)

Are you saying that it's a mix of an ideal lineup, mixed with different coaching decisions? Or worse even, that it's a lost cause?

I'm saying that if they play as they have (excepting Alkins), it won't matter. It is not a matter of landing on the right lineup.

[gumby]

Trier
Alkins
Randolph
Lee
Ayton

gimme gimme

still holding out for a mid season transfer PG thats eligible right away

Problems go beyond the right lineup.

Your point in the other thread about the packline for this roster makes sense, and suggests a problem with a longstanding narrative on this board.

On the one hand, there's the argument that the packline is suitable for mid-major talent, but carries an opportunity cost for a team with elite "horses" who should be allowed to defend man-to-man in an open floor where they turn the offense over. And then we can supposedly get out running on the resulting break, instead of the plodding offense that results from our densely packed defensive set around the paint when we grab the board off a miss.

On the other hand, there's the argument that the current players aren't capable defenders, and Miller should remove his senior point guard and senior center, whereby we still have to deal with Trier's and Ayton's and whoever else's defensive limitations. Shouldn't those limitations point to the need for a system that's able to shore up the deficiencies of less talented players?

No matter how the starting lineup gets tweaked, it would seem that the primary concern be the positioning and coordination of defenders in a system where shared responsibilities aim to deny penetration and prevent layups and open 3-pointers. But the packline takes a famously long time to master. Too bad we're so deep into November.

Whatever the answer, I think it's best to take our hypothetical solutions to this team's problems with a grain of salt. Maybe there is something to Miller's unpopular notion that the problem isn't certain players, but rather what those individuals aren't doing yet in relation to their roles within the system. It's easy to say Miller is stubborn. But it's harder than we think to expect easy solutions to address the real problems on this team.

Or, in more words, this.

[CatFanOneMil]

Take your fantasy "zone works for Syracuse all the time" and sell it somewhere else.

Since '01, whose track record would you prefer, Boeheim's or Lute/KO/RP/Miller's?

Without disparaging your intelligence this is a rather dumb question...of course we want a winning record, who doesn't, but there is not ONE team that is always the national champion, there is not ONE team that is always in the final four.

Hell lets choose Woodens record if we're playing make-believe, or better yet since its a hypothetical, lets pretend we've won every year since 2001, and now my hypothetical record is better than yours.

It's a non realistic question. Its a hypothetical one.

[Beachcat97]

Take your fantasy "zone works for Syracuse all the time" and sell it somewhere else.

Since '01, whose track record would you prefer, Boeheim's or Lute/KO/RP/Miller's?

Without disparaging your intelligence this is a rather dumb question...of course we want a winning record, who doesn't, but there is not ONE team that is always the national champion, there is not ONE team that is always in the final four.

Hell lets choose Woodens record if we're playing make-believe, or better yet since its a hypothetical, lets pretend we've won every year since 2001, and now my hypothetical record is better than yours.

It's a non realistic question. Its a hypothetical one.

Well, in fairness, no one (including me) said that Syracuse's zone works all the time. You went to impressive lengths to bash Syracuse/Boeheim. Hard to bash a guy who's been to three FFs in the past 15 years. That zone works. And it's especially effective in the tourney because Cuse is likely to face teams who haven't seen that defense at all during the year. If Boeheim's system deters some players who see the zone as restrictive or boring, it may also attract gritty players like Gerry MacNamara.

[CatFanOneMil]

Take your fantasy "zone works for Syracuse all the time" and sell it somewhere else.

Since '01, whose track record would you prefer, Boeheim's or Lute/KO/RP/Miller's?

Without disparaging your intelligence this is a rather dumb question...of course we want a winning record, who doesn't, but there is not ONE team that is always the national champion, there is not ONE team that is always in the final four.

Hell lets choose Woodens record if we're playing make-believe, or better yet since its a hypothetical, lets pretend we've won every year since 2001, and now my hypothetical record is better than yours.

It's a non realistic question. Its a hypothetical one.

Well, in fairness, no one (including me) said that Syracuse's zone works all the time. You went to impressive lengths to bash Syracuse/Boeheim. Hard to bash a guy who's been to three FFs in the past 15 years. That zone works. And it's especially effective in the tourney because Cuse is likely to face teams who haven't seen that defense at all during the year. If Boeheim's system deters some players who see the zone as restrictive or boring, it may also attract gritty players like Gerry MacNamara.

I was not intentionally bashing Boeheim, he's done a lot more with less than I care to admit, but the same argument can be made for Tony Bennet and he runs the pack-line, my point is there is no one size fits all category of strategy, each coach pushes what he is most comfortable with in the over all culture of his school.
I still can't for the life of me figure out what the fuck Altman does but he does a hellavu lot and I respect his results.

I can almost throw up a little in my mouth and say the same for Allful Alford, but I'm afraid the basketball god would hear me and they would win again.

Who knows what the fuck Hurley runs (besides his mouth) and right now Bobly Hurleys team would probably take Sean Millers team to the woodshed...if that remains a constant I will try anything and everything including letting Book Richardson coach if it stops that nightmare.

I still have confidence that right now Millers system should remain in place just as he places it. There's still time to change the road your on...

[YoDeFoe]

Well, in fairness, no one (including me) said that Syracuse's zone works all the time. You went to impressive lengths to bash Syracuse/Boeheim. Hard to bash a guy who's been to three FFs in the past 15 years. That zone works. And it's especially effective in the tourney because Cuse is likely to face teams who haven't seen that defense at all during the year. If Boeheim's system deters some players who see the zone as restrictive or boring, it may also attract gritty players like Gerry MacNamara.

Did the zone get Syracuse to their only Natty in 2003? Because my recollection is that it was Carmello Anthony balling the fuck out that carried them. Pretty sure he was a number one or number two recruit in the country and that was a team of freshman and sophomores - not a recipe for defensive prowess.