2017-2018 Arizona Basketball

[dcZONAfan]

Sorta think Rawle’s back on Tuesday.

Now you tell me after I already made my RAP picks without him. Can I make a new set of RAP picks?

That was only a guess. It isn’t fact.

I’m just reading the signs.

You're doing no such thing. You're simply being Wildly-Speculative Beachcat97

[Spaceman Spiff]

When Rawle comes back you go small and run.

G: PJC
G: Trier
G: Ranloph
G/F: Alkins
F/C: Ayton

Yes. When we face bigger teams, go with Pinder and Lee. Try Ristic for a few minutes.

I would go heavily situational lineups. Two bigs that can't really spread the floor, you can play Dusan and Ayton together against them. Against smaller, quicker spread teams, I would give Lee time. Pinder is so limited, and Lee has the higher upside.

I think Lee is getting more play than Pinder now.

That is a good decision. They are roughly comparable right now, Lee has upside and Pinder is what he is.

[YoDeFoe]

Lee is getting double the minutes of Pinder right now - he's just far more capable offensively (that coast to coast play against LBSU... can Pinder even dribble in a straight line for that long?).

Lee desperately needs to get better at playing defense without fouling... he's said that he's never been a ref's favorite. It's stupid fouls while going for the rebound that he's usually guilty of, and while I appreciate him not giving up on a play, when you're already beat don't compound it by giving them FTs and planting yourself on the bench.

Looking at the UNLV game... Lee was overlooked on some passes that could have been easy buckets for him and was allowed to be fouled without a whistle on some of his attempts (fouled twice on that beautiful pass by Dylan Smith at about the 13min mark of the first half, once by McCoy who shuffled into him while he was airborne and a second time by the UNLV defender who jumped into Lee's body during the second shot). Frustrating, I'm sure, but he'll settle in with time.

[Longhorned]

Lee is getting double the minutes of Pinder right now - he's just far more capable offensively (that coast to coast play against LBSU... can Pinder even dribble in a straight line for that long?).

Lee desperately needs to get better at playing defense without fouling... he's said that he's never been a ref's favorite. It's stupid fouls while going for the rebound that he's usually guilty of, and while I appreciate him not giving up on a play, when you're already beat don't compound it by giving them FTs and planting yourself on the bench.

All true, and despite Lee's fouling problem, Pinder is good for precisely one mean block and one mean dunk per every 5 fouls.

[rgdeuce]

Lee is getting double the minutes of Pinder right now - he's just far more capable offensively (that coast to coast play against LBSU... can Pinder even dribble in a straight line for that long?).

Lee desperately needs to get better at playing defense without fouling... he's said that he's never been a ref's favorite. It's stupid fouls while going for the rebound that he's usually guilty of, and while I appreciate him not giving up on a play, when you're already beat don't compound it by giving them FTs and planting yourself on the bench.

Still quite the upgrade over Pinder in that regard though Lee fouls at a rate of about once per 6.1 minutes of play. Pinder about once every 4.1 minutes. If you watch Lee, quite a bit of the time he does a solid job of keeping his hands up and off of his man and moving his feet. You're right though, he picks up the silly ones, trying to do too much to correct a mistake, reaching in, being overaggressive on the boards after failing to get himself into a better position.

Edit: just realized Lee is shooting 75% from the line. I knew Pinder was atrocious, just not 37% bad. Statistically, Lee is the better player in pretty much all aspects outside of shot blocking, but most of those are of the weak side help variety anyhow, plus factor in the added foul rate, it probably amounts to a wash (or close) when all is said and done. Lee is the (easy) correct answer in both the short and long terms.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Lee is getting double the minutes of Pinder right now - he's just far more capable offensively (that coast to coast play against LBSU... can Pinder even dribble in a straight line for that long?).

Lee desperately needs to get better at playing defense without fouling... he's said that he's never been a ref's favorite. It's stupid fouls while going for the rebound that he's usually guilty of, and while I appreciate him not giving up on a play, when you're already beat don't compound it by giving them FTs and planting yourself on the bench.

Looking at the UNLV game... Lee was overlooked on some passes that could have been easy buckets for him and was allowed to be fouled without a whistle on some of his attempts (fouled twice on that beautiful pass by Dylan Smith at about the 13min mark of the first half, once by McCoy who shuffled into him while he was airborne and a second time by the UNLV defender who jumped into Lee's body during the second shot). Frustrating, I'm sure, but he'll settle in with time.

That's why I like Lee. He plays hard and can finish non-dunks. The fouling and defensive polish will come with time and experience. He gets his role and has far more potential than Pinder. UNLV wasn't a great game for him, but things happen. I REALLY like the thought of four years of Lee.

[YoDeFoe]

Just looking back on UNLV... I think Lee played PF for the last six minutes of regulation and nearly all of OT.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Just looking back on UNLV... I think Lee played PF for the last six minutes of regulation and nearly all of OT.

McCoy gutted us like a fish and Dusan was not effective. There really wasn't much of a choice.

[YoDeFoe]

Just looking back on UNLV... I think Lee played PF for the last six minutes of regulation and nearly all of OT.

McCoy gutted us like a fish and Dusan was not effective. There really wasn't much of a choice.

Agreed. Just interesting to see the faith in Lee over Ristic and Pinder this early in the season. I think everyone here knows I love it.

[Olsondogg]

Lee is getting double the minutes of Pinder right now - he's just far more capable offensively (that coast to coast play against LBSU... can Pinder even dribble in a straight line for that long?).

Lee desperately needs to get better at playing defense without fouling... he's said that he's never been a ref's favorite. It's stupid fouls while going for the rebound that he's usually guilty of, and while I appreciate him not giving up on a play, when you're already beat don't compound it by giving them FTs and planting yourself on the bench.

Looking at the UNLV game... Lee was overlooked on some passes that could have been easy buckets for him and was allowed to be fouled without a whistle on some of his attempts (fouled twice on that beautiful pass by Dylan Smith at about the 13min mark of the first half, once by McCoy who shuffled into him while he was airborne and a second time by the UNLV defender who jumped into Lee's body during the second shot). Frustrating, I'm sure, but he'll settle in with time.

That's why I like Lee. He plays hard and can finish non-dunks. The fouling and defensive polish will come with time and experience. He gets his role and has far more potential than Pinder. UNLV wasn't a great game for him, but things happen. I REALLY like the thought of four years of Lee.

Lee was lucky his man missed that trey at the end of OT...otherwise you would have never heard from him again.

[Jefe]

Just looking back on UNLV... I think Lee played PF for the last six minutes of regulation and nearly all of OT.

I almost threw my remote when Dusan checked back in during OT

[SunnyAZ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9FXNrr9QIM

A breakdown of the Pistons' PnR defense, the same as we run.

[YoDeFoe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9FXNrr9QIM

A breakdown of the Pistons' PnR defense, the same as we run.

GREAT share but damn this is downright discouraging to see them executing this well in contrast to our guys.

[Spaceman Spiff]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9FXNrr9QIM

A breakdown of the Pistons' PnR defense, the same as we run.

GREAT share but damn this is downright discouraging to see them executing this well in contrast to our guys.

Ayton is lax on hedging. Dusan is just slow.

[azcat49]

Just looking back on UNLV... I think Lee played PF for the last six minutes of regulation and nearly all of OT.

Just watched the game having been out of town and masn was Rustic terrible. The only reason I can think of having him in with Ayton is it allows Ayton to play the 4. Lee is a much better Pincer and a better option for us.

That was a good win for us against a tournament level team in UNLV. They have an excellent front court and their only loss was too Northern Iowa who was in the Bahamas championship game

I think we will continue to have some head scratching moments but by March we will be very happy with our team

[TucsonClip]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9FXNrr9QIM

A breakdown of the Pistons' PnR defense, the same as we run.

Somewhat similar, but our coverage differs in a few major ways.

We hard hedge the side ball screens, and drop coverage the middle/flat abll screens (sometimes Ayton will hedge those too because of how athletic he is). We low tag the roll man, meaning the corner defender away from the screen action will put a body on the roll man. In some cases, mainly when that guys is PJC, Miller will have him help all the way across the lane, and then recover to the corner three.

The Pistons will also funnel the ball to Drummond in the paint, whereas we dont want any paint penetration. Our trail defender on the ball screen (the guard) has to get over and cut off penetration. Meanwhile, literally our entire team has to cover for our big while he recovers off the hedge/show.

Finally, we hard hedge so hard, teams have been splitting and slipping our hedge, which has caused all kinds of trouble, mainly because we arent a good defensive team. We are REALLY struggling to not only prevent the slip/split on the hedge, but even defend at all behind the coverage. The help is late or not there, Ayton hasnt shown much at all protecting the rim, he hasnt been good helping, our other defenders in the coverage have a lot of ground to cover, and Ristic takes forever to recover back to his man off the hedge.

Its been an absolute nightmare. The Pistons have that built inn hard hedge, but that is far from the norm in the NBA anymore. Everyone is either switching or using a form of drop coverage, or aggressive drop coverage where the big picks up the attack at the level of the screener and retreats to the rim with the ball.

If I could change anything about our defense this year, it would be to scrap the damn hard hedge and play drop or aggressive drop. Keep the bigs closer to the rim, dont ask guys you know cant defend to cover up the floor in the coverage, and eliminate that weak side corner massive rotation on the tag.

[SunnyAZ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9FXNrr9QIM

A breakdown of the Pistons' PnR defense, the same as we run.

Somewhat similar, but our coverage differs in a few major ways.

I posted it before watching all of it. But yeah, in the NBA you have to be way more diverse schematically because players (and perhaps coaches) are way better. You need a lot of solutions throughout the year, otherwise you are getting fired.

[RiseAndFire]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9FXNrr9QIM

A breakdown of the Pistons' PnR defense, the same as we run.

GREAT share but damn this is downright discouraging to see them executing this well in contrast to our guys.

Ayton is lax on hedging. Dusan is just slow.

I imagine Miller looks at Dusan and says: "Y U no defend like Aaron Gordon?!"
And never considers that maybe having Dus hedging and defending PNR 30 feet from the hoop is a not a good fit

Normally having two 7-footers on the floor would be a huge advantage - except it's the opposite with Miller because in his stupid scheme they spend half the time defending the 3-point line because pack line

[Chicat]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9FXNrr9QIM

A breakdown of the Pistons' PnR defense, the same as we run.

GREAT share but damn this is downright discouraging to see them executing this well in contrast to our guys.

Ayton is lax on hedging. Dusan is just slow.

I imagine Miller looks at Dusan and says: "Y U no defend like Aaron Gordon?!"
And never considers that maybe having Dus hedging and defending PNR 30 feet from the hoop is a not a good fit

Normally having two 7-footers on the floor would be a huge advantage - except it's the opposite with Miller because in his stupid scheme they spend half the time defending the 3-point line because pack line

Having two 7-footers on the floor is an advantage ...... except if one has to guard a guy who is playing the PF at 6’ 6.5” and is shooting threes.

What do you do with your twin towers now, huh Professor?

[Spaceman Spiff]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9FXNrr9QIM

A breakdown of the Pistons' PnR defense, the same as we run.

GREAT share but damn this is downright discouraging to see them executing this well in contrast to our guys.

Ayton is lax on hedging. Dusan is just slow.

I imagine Miller looks at Dusan and says: "Y U no defend like Aaron Gordon?!"
And never considers that maybe having Dus hedging and defending PNR 30 feet from the hoop is a not a good fit

Normally having two 7-footers on the floor would be a huge advantage - except it's the opposite with Miller because in his stupid scheme they spend half the time defending the 3-point line because pack line

You talk about zone, which would necessitate one of those 7 footers zoning the corner to the three point line.

Other teams can run plays too. They run plays designed to attack our weak points. That does not change whether you go with hard hedge, show/recover, etc. In any man scheme, utilizing a pick a roll to pull larger, slower defenders away from the rim is a big deal. If you switch to zone, other teams would exploit Dusan with baseline action, back screens, etc.

Learn basketball.

[PHXCATS]

Spiff I get what you are saying 100% and I agree with it to a large extent. I remember Zona Zealots or someone screaming for a zone when Purdue was drilling 3s. That would not have helped with that situation.

I just wish that Miller would teach more of it to go to it when it would be beneficial and to have that in his pocket if needed.

One of my favorite basketball memories is when the Suns just dominated the Lakers in 2010 I believe when they threw out a zone out of no where for a game. A zone would not fix anything but would confuse the other teams and would be nice to have available if it would be beneficial.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Spiff I get what you are saying 100% and I agree with it to a large extent. I remember Zona Zealots or someone screaming for a zone when Purdue was drilling 3s. That would not have helped with that situation.

I just wish that Miller would teach more of it to go to it when it would be beneficial and to have that in his pocket if needed.

One of my favorite basketball memories is when the Suns just dominated the Lakers in 2010 I believe when they threw out a zone out of no where for a game. A zone would not fix anything but would confuse the other teams and would be nice to have available if it would be beneficial.

This is just my opinion, but I disagree, especially for this year's team. We struggle with the fundamentals and need as much teaching and practice on the base concepts. Progressing in those areas is huge for long term success.

Zone is something you have to know how to execute. Teaching it takes away from teaching time on man fundamentals, which is an area we need teaching time in.

Plus, it doesn't camouflage base issues. Dusan having difficulty moving is an issue. Zone doesn't give a greater capability to play him and Ayton together because one of them has to go to the perimeter to cover zone. It sort of has to be Ayton, and now you're playing Ayton in a position he's probably never played in his entire life.

Then you have our wings and their issues playing team D. Zone necessitates a lot of team D because you have to read the other players to keep gaps covered. If we suck at that in man, we would likely suck in zone too.

[PHXCATS]

Spiff I get what you are saying 100% and I agree with it to a large extent. I remember Zona Zealots or someone screaming for a zone when Purdue was drilling 3s. That would not have helped with that situation.

I just wish that Miller would teach more of it to go to it when it would be beneficial and to have that in his pocket if needed.

One of my favorite basketball memories is when the Suns just dominated the Lakers in 2010 I believe when they threw out a zone out of no where for a game. A zone would not fix anything but would confuse the other teams and would be nice to have available if it would be beneficial.

This is just my opinion, but I disagree, especially for this year's team. We struggle with the fundamentals and need as much teaching and practice on the base concepts. Progressing in those areas is huge for long term success.

Zone is something you have to know how to execute. Teaching it takes away from teaching time on man fundamentals, which is an area we need teaching time in.

Plus, it doesn't camouflage base issues. Dusan having difficulty moving is an issue. Zone doesn't give a greater capability to play him and Ayton together because one of them has to go to the perimeter to cover zone. It sort of has to be Ayton, and now you're playing Ayton in a position he's probably never played in his entire life.

Then you have our wings and their issues playing team D. Zone necessitates a lot of team D because you have to read the other players to keep gaps covered. If we suck at that in man, we would likely suck in zone too.

Fair points. Maybe it would be better served in the future compared to this year with the struggles you noted. Frustrating that the team is struggling with man to man fundamentals at this point in their basketball careers and this point in the season.

[SunnyAZ]

This is just my opinion, but I disagree, especially for this year's team. We struggle with the fundamentals and need as much teaching and practice on the base concepts. Progressing in those areas is huge for long term success.

Zone is something you have to know how to execute. Teaching it takes away from teaching time on man fundamentals, which is an area we need teaching time in.

Plus, it doesn't camouflage base issues. Dusan having difficulty moving is an issue. Zone doesn't give a greater capability to play him and Ayton together because one of them has to go to the perimeter to cover zone. It sort of has to be Ayton, and now you're playing Ayton in a position he's probably never played in his entire life.

Then you have our wings and their issues playing team D. Zone necessitates a lot of team D because you have to read the other players to keep gaps covered. If we suck at that in man, we would likely suck in zone too.

The season is 6 months long, anybody who doesn't think you can learn two defenses over that time is being silly.

Also, you say we need to get better so we can win when it is necessary. Sometimes a zone will be a better option when it is necessary (maybe like a tourney game against idk, say an Xavier team that knows how your defense runs and picks perfect stuff to go against it) and if you don't get reps at that you won't go to it.

Also we 100% spend time on the zone defense in practice. Simply because we go against it all the time.

Teams go to zone because it stagnates the offense, which gives you less help situations and less hard closeouts. Which helps weaker defenders stay out of bad positioning. Most college teams struggle against it, as an Arizona fan that should be obvious.

Ayton would be fine on the perimeter, his perimeter defenses has been really good this year. In terms of just guarding a guy trying to go at him. He lost a couple of guys but that is less of an issue when a person isn't your responsibility but an area.

[rgdeuce]

We go through this every freaking year

[PHXCATS]

We go through this every freaking year

And every year Miller and Arizona miss the final four.

Adjustments can help make that not the case anymore.

[YoDeFoe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9FXNrr9QIM

A breakdown of the Pistons' PnR defense, the same as we run.

Somewhat similar, but our coverage differs in a few major ways.

We hard hedge the side ball screens, and drop coverage the middle/flat abll screens (sometimes Ayton will hedge those too because of how athletic he is). We low tag the roll man, meaning the corner defender away from the screen action will put a body on the roll man. In some cases, mainly when that guys is PJC, Miller will have him help all the way across the lane, and then recover to the corner three.

The Pistons will also funnel the ball to Drummond in the paint, whereas we dont want any paint penetration. Our trail defender on the ball screen (the guard) has to get over and cut off penetration. Meanwhile, literally our entire team has to cover for our big while he recovers off the hedge/show.

Finally, we hard hedge so hard, teams have been splitting and slipping our hedge, which has caused all kinds of trouble, mainly because we arent a good defensive team. We are REALLY struggling to not only prevent the slip/split on the hedge, but even defend at all behind the coverage. The help is late or not there, Ayton hasnt shown much at all protecting the rim, he hasnt been good helping, our other defenders in the coverage have a lot of ground to cover, and Ristic takes forever to recover back to his man off the hedge.

Its been an absolute nightmare. The Pistons have that built inn hard hedge, but that is far from the norm in the NBA anymore. Everyone is either switching or using a form of drop coverage, or aggressive drop coverage where the big picks up the attack at the level of the screener and retreats to the rim with the ball.

If I could change anything about our defense this year, it would be to scrap the damn hard hedge and play drop or aggressive drop. Keep the bigs closer to the rim, dont ask guys you know cant defend to cover up the floor in the coverage, and eliminate that weak side corner massive rotation on the tag.

I really appreciate this insight.

Can someone confirm that we hard hedge in order to give our perimeter defenders time to recover as they "fight through" high ball screens? I believe I remember seeing us doing a poor job of hedging early in the year and PJC and Trier getting left behind because they can't/don't fight through ball screens well.

So it seems to me it's a bit of "pick your poison" (which Spiff also notes). There's going to be a weakness in however we play defense. If we hedge hard to help our guards who have trouble fighting through screens... well the other team just has to slip/split and take the open space to the rim (which Purdue did very well). If we don't hedge hard then our guards get burned.

Each of those issues can be covered by team defense and guys rotating quickly to fill driving lanes, as well as by reading the screen and not hedging too high. You see that done well in the video of the Pistons.

I'd like to hear more about the drop / aggressive drop defense that Clip is proposing.

[Spaceman Spiff]

This is just my opinion, but I disagree, especially for this year's team. We struggle with the fundamentals and need as much teaching and practice on the base concepts. Progressing in those areas is huge for long term success.

Zone is something you have to know how to execute. Teaching it takes away from teaching time on man fundamentals, which is an area we need teaching time in.

Plus, it doesn't camouflage base issues. Dusan having difficulty moving is an issue. Zone doesn't give a greater capability to play him and Ayton together because one of them has to go to the perimeter to cover zone. It sort of has to be Ayton, and now you're playing Ayton in a position he's probably never played in his entire life.

Then you have our wings and their issues playing team D. Zone necessitates a lot of team D because you have to read the other players to keep gaps covered. If we suck at that in man, we would likely suck in zone too.

The season is 6 months long, anybody who doesn't think you can learn two defenses over that time is being silly.

Also, you say we need to get better so we can win when it is necessary. Sometimes a zone will be a better option when it is necessary (maybe like a tourney game against idk, say an Xavier team that knows how your defense runs and picks perfect stuff to go against it) and if you don't get reps at that you won't go to it.

Also we 100% spend time on the zone defense in practice. Simply because we go against it all the time.

Teams go to zone because it stagnates the offense, which gives you less help situations and less hard closeouts. Which helps weaker defenders stay out of bad positioning. Most college teams struggle against it, as an Arizona fan that should be obvious.

Ayton would be fine on the perimeter, his perimeter defenses has been really good this year. In terms of just guarding a guy trying to go at him. He lost a couple of guys but that is less of an issue when a person isn't your responsibility but an area.

We need to shore up base fundamentals of man/packline. The argument about zone sort of disregards that. When you say 6 months should be enough, well, the reality is that it is not that easy or linear. Even our freshmen have been coached in base man rotation for years and we execute that poorly. Trier has been in this system for years and his execution wavers heavily.

I've never been a fan of building a large level of execution prep around possibilities down the road. You tend to wind up average at two things instead of good at one and poor at another.

The idea of prepping for tourney matchups I also am not really impressed by. It's a crapshoot and you do the best for yourself by coming in with a solid base of being a good team that executes what is needed.

[TucsonClip]

This is just my opinion, but I disagree, especially for this year's team. We struggle with the fundamentals and need as much teaching and practice on the base concepts. Progressing in those areas is huge for long term success.

Zone is something you have to know how to execute. Teaching it takes away from teaching time on man fundamentals, which is an area we need teaching time in.

Plus, it doesn't camouflage base issues. Dusan having difficulty moving is an issue. Zone doesn't give a greater capability to play him and Ayton together because one of them has to go to the perimeter to cover zone. It sort of has to be Ayton, and now you're playing Ayton in a position he's probably never played in his entire life.

Then you have our wings and their issues playing team D. Zone necessitates a lot of team D because you have to read the other players to keep gaps covered. If we suck at that in man, we would likely suck in zone too.

Been saying this for a while, and I totally agree with you. You think you hate Dusan defensively now? Watch him try to defend in a zone on the wing. Better yet, want Ristic closer to the rim? Well, now we just took one of the best rebounders in the country away from the basket.

[gumby]

Just looking back on UNLV... I think Lee played PF for the last six minutes of regulation and nearly all of OT.

I almost threw my remote when Dusan checked back in during OT

And when he got that offensive rebound, I'm, like, "Don't dribble! Don't dribble!"

He dribbles, gets it stolen, but Parker steals it back.

[gumby]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9FXNrr9QIM

A breakdown of the Pistons' PnR defense, the same as we run.

Somewhat similar, but our coverage differs in a few major ways.

We hard hedge the side ball screens, and drop coverage the middle/flat abll screens (sometimes Ayton will hedge those too because of how athletic he is). We low tag the roll man, meaning the corner defender away from the screen action will put a body on the roll man. In some cases, mainly when that guys is PJC, Miller will have him help all the way across the lane, and then recover to the corner three.

The Pistons will also funnel the ball to Drummond in the paint, whereas we dont want any paint penetration. Our trail defender on the ball screen (the guard) has to get over and cut off penetration. Meanwhile, literally our entire team has to cover for our big while he recovers off the hedge/show.

Finally, we hard hedge so hard, teams have been splitting and slipping our hedge, which has caused all kinds of trouble, mainly because we arent a good defensive team. We are REALLY struggling to not only prevent the slip/split on the hedge, but even defend at all behind the coverage. The help is late or not there, Ayton hasnt shown much at all protecting the rim, he hasnt been good helping, our other defenders in the coverage have a lot of ground to cover, and Ristic takes forever to recover back to his man off the hedge.

Its been an absolute nightmare. The Pistons have that built inn hard hedge, but that is far from the norm in the NBA anymore. Everyone is either switching or using a form of drop coverage, or aggressive drop coverage where the big picks up the attack at the level of the screener and retreats to the rim with the ball.

If I could change anything about our defense this year, it would be to scrap the damn hard hedge and play drop or aggressive drop. Keep the bigs closer to the rim, dont ask guys you know cant defend to cover up the floor in the coverage, and eliminate that weak side corner massive rotation on the tag.

This is really good, Thanks. Anyone want to take their criticism of Kaleb back? He meant so much.

[TucsonClip]

I really appreciate this insight.

Can someone confirm that we hard hedge in order to give our perimeter defenders time to recover as they "fight through" high ball screens? I believe I remember seeing us doing a poor job of hedging early in the year and PJC and Trier getting left behind because they can't/don't fight through ball screens well.

So it seems to me it's a bit of "pick your poison" (which Spiff also notes). There's going to be a weakness in however we play defense. If we hedge hard to help our guards who have trouble fighting through screens... well the other team just has to slip/split and take the open space to the rim (which Purdue did very well). If we don't hedge hard then our guards get burned.

Each of those issues can be covered by team defense and guys rotating quickly to fill driving lanes, as well as by reading the screen and not hedging too high. You see that done well in the video of the Pistons.

I'd like to hear more about the drop / aggressive drop defense that Clip is proposing.

We hard hedge to prevent the ball handler from turning the corner on those side screens and getting middle. It stops the attack, which then allows for a recovery. Makes total sense, and Miller has shown it works. The problem is, we dont have the personnel to run it. The personnel we do have, nearly every year, is made of up freshman or transfers. So in order to teach them how to execute that hard hedge/show, PLUS defend behind the coverage via help, Miller has to erase all the bad habits they have learned in HS, or retrain them as transfers. That is why his defense takes so long to learn. People say it isnt rocket science, and its not, but everyone has to be on the same page and moving together. That is extremely difficult to get 18 year olds to do.

My proposal isnt meant to be the golden ticket to a good defense. It just makes sense based on what I said above. If teams are going to manipulate our defense by pulling Ristic/Ayton high on the floor into a ball screen, then drop the coverage, and keep them closer to the rim. I would rather see teams taking pull up jumpers against that coverage, than reversing the ball and getting a straight line drive to the rim, or splitting/slipping the hedge.

Difference between the drop and aggressive drop is the location of the big defending the ball screen. Drop coverage, you will see teams sag their big into the lane to protect the rim. However, this coverage is more susceptible to pick and pop, or pull up threes/elbow jumpers. Aggressive, the big picks up at the level of the screen to force a mid-range jumper and to retreat with the ball to the rim. Helps against pick and pop.

In both cases, the help defense has to change a bit. Strong side guard/wing has to cover for the pick and pop, BUT, the weak side defender doesnt have to help from the corner all the way across the lane. Teams know they can force us to do this by sending the roll man on a diagonal route from the left elbow to the right block. That opens the corner three on a kick out or reversal (see PJC scrambling to the corner all the time to contest, which is diagrammed into the set for a reason).

I dont expect Miller to make these changes, but they certainly would make things a bit easier if we are playing Ristic and Ayton together.

[Spaceman Spiff]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9FXNrr9QIM

A breakdown of the Pistons' PnR defense, the same as we run.

Somewhat similar, but our coverage differs in a few major ways.

We hard hedge the side ball screens, and drop coverage the middle/flat abll screens (sometimes Ayton will hedge those too because of how athletic he is). We low tag the roll man, meaning the corner defender away from the screen action will put a body on the roll man. In some cases, mainly when that guys is PJC, Miller will have him help all the way across the lane, and then recover to the corner three.

The Pistons will also funnel the ball to Drummond in the paint, whereas we dont want any paint penetration. Our trail defender on the ball screen (the guard) has to get over and cut off penetration. Meanwhile, literally our entire team has to cover for our big while he recovers off the hedge/show.

Finally, we hard hedge so hard, teams have been splitting and slipping our hedge, which has caused all kinds of trouble, mainly because we arent a good defensive team. We are REALLY struggling to not only prevent the slip/split on the hedge, but even defend at all behind the coverage. The help is late or not there, Ayton hasnt shown much at all protecting the rim, he hasnt been good helping, our other defenders in the coverage have a lot of ground to cover, and Ristic takes forever to recover back to his man off the hedge.

Its been an absolute nightmare. The Pistons have that built inn hard hedge, but that is far from the norm in the NBA anymore. Everyone is either switching or using a form of drop coverage, or aggressive drop coverage where the big picks up the attack at the level of the screener and retreats to the rim with the ball.

If I could change anything about our defense this year, it would be to scrap the damn hard hedge and play drop or aggressive drop. Keep the bigs closer to the rim, dont ask guys you know cant defend to cover up the floor in the coverage, and eliminate that weak side corner massive rotation on the tag.

I really appreciate this insight.

Can someone confirm that we hard hedge in order to give our perimeter defenders time to recover as they "fight through" high ball screens? I believe I remember seeing us doing a poor job of hedging early in the year and PJC and Trier getting left behind because they can't/don't fight through ball screens well.

So it seems to me it's a bit of "pick your poison" (which Spiff also notes). There's going to be a weakness in however we play defense. If we hedge hard to help our guards who have trouble fighting through screens... well the other team just has to slip/split and take the open space to the rim (which Purdue did very well). If we don't hedge hard then our guards get burned.

Each of those issues can be covered by team defense and guys rotating quickly to fill driving lanes, as well as by reading the screen and not hedging too high. You see that done well in the video of the Pistons.

I'd like to hear more about the drop / aggressive drop defense that Clip is proposing.

I was always taught it was hedge/recover vs show/recover.

Hedging is designed to move the offensive player to about 30 feet, where he cannot initiate offense. A pass has to be a long one that can be picked off. He can't shoot from there and by the time he reverses direction and gets to driving distance, your primary defender is on the way back.

Showing prevents the ballhandler from turning the corner. It doesn't attempt to adjust the path, so much as act as a temporary switch until the primary defender fights through. The advantage here is that there is less distance for the roll defender to recover after neutralizing the ballhandler.

Where I think we mess up a lot is showing when we should be hedging. This, combiined with weak side rotation, leaves a ballhander in a dangerous spot with off ball defenders sucked in like they would be on a hedge. Showing means off ball defenders don't have to drop as far.

Hope that makes some sense. I get Clip's preference because Ayton shows a lot and showing seems to minimize Dusan's issues with mobility. To go in that direction, you need backline players to be better about not getting sucked close to the rim and that's also been an issue.

[TucsonClip]

Hope that makes some sense. I get Clip's preference because Ayton shows a lot and showing seems to minimize Dusan's issues with mobility. To go in that direction, you need backline players to be better about not getting sucked close to the rim and that's also been an issue.

Yeah, the biggest issue we face, IMO, is:

1. It takes Dusan so long to recover off that hedge back to his man.
2. That holds our help defense in a bad place, because they have to recover depending on the ball/attack/pass
3. We dont have good defenders anyway, so that extra second or two is death for our help. We dont have the athleticism, lateral quickness, nor length to make up the difference.
4. "We now are late closing out on shooters AND dont do a good job breaking down on the close out.

Ayton is clearly much better on that hedge/show, but the defense behind the coverage remains the same. Ayton just recovers so, so much quicker.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Hope that makes some sense. I get Clip's preference because Ayton shows a lot and showing seems to minimize Dusan's issues with mobility. To go in that direction, you need backline players to be better about not getting sucked close to the rim and that's also been an issue.

Yeah, the biggest issue we face, IMO, is:

1. It takes Dusan so long to recover off that hedge back to his man.
2. That holds our help defense in a bad place, because they have to recover depending on the ball/attack/pass
3. We dont have good defenders anyway, so that extra second or two is death for our help. We dont have the athleticism, lateral quickness, nor length to make up the difference.
4. "We now are late closing out on shooters AND dont do a good job breaking down on the close out.

Ayton is clearly much better on that hedge/show, but the defense behind the coverage remains the same. Ayton just recovers so, so much quicker.

My note of hope on help D is that thinking is death. You're right it's a split second timing on recovery. From our help defenders, I see a lot of us thinking, then reacting, instead of automatic movement.

I go back to why things are that much worse than last year. Ayton is as nimble as Lauri and most of our perimeter guys are as athletically talented as last year. We're lagging (hopefully) due to mental processing time.

Great post above on our base approach. The only thing I'd add would be that virtually no one sags any more because of the prevalence of the 3 ball today. Back in the day, too many 3's was bad. Today, teams are happy to fire it up GSW style and play the percentages.

[TucsonClip]

My note of hope on help D is that thinking is death. You're right it's a split second timing on recovery. From our help defenders, I see a lot of us thinking, then reacting, instead of automatic movement.

I go back to why things are that much worse than last year. Ayton is as nimble as Lauri and most of our perimeter guys are as athletically talented as last year. We're lagging (hopefully) due to mental processing time.

Great post above on our base approach. The only thing I'd add would be that virtually no one sags any more because of the prevalence of the 3 ball today. Back in the day, too many 3's was bad. Today, teams are happy to fire it up GSW style and play the percentages.

Agreed. Lots of thinking and then reacting going on.

Regarding the sag/drop, yeah its not as in anymore, because everyone has lineups that can switch instead. If they dont, they will play an aggressive drop, because of all the athletes they can trot out at the 4/5.

Problem with Ristic is, he can get blown by off the bounce via the aggressive drop. Still, id much rather risk that over Ristic recovering, and then having to help at the rim.

Remember the days when Miller had teams capable of switching those high ball screens? What happened to recruiting like that?

[Spaceman Spiff]

My note of hope on help D is that thinking is death. You're right it's a split second timing on recovery. From our help defenders, I see a lot of us thinking, then reacting, instead of automatic movement.

I go back to why things are that much worse than last year. Ayton is as nimble as Lauri and most of our perimeter guys are as athletically talented as last year. We're lagging (hopefully) due to mental processing time.

Great post above on our base approach. The only thing I'd add would be that virtually no one sags any more because of the prevalence of the 3 ball today. Back in the day, too many 3's was bad. Today, teams are happy to fire it up GSW style and play the percentages.

Agreed. Lots of thinking and then reacting going on.

Regarding the sag/drop, yeah its not as in anymore, because everyone has lineups that can switch instead. If they dont, they will play an aggressive drop, because of all the athletes they can trot out at the 4/5.

Problem with Ristic is, he can get blown by off the bounce via the aggressive drop. Still, id much rather risk that over Ristic recovering, and then having to help at the rim.

Remember the days when Miller had teams capable of switching those high ball screens? What happened to recruiting like that?

Yeah, with Dusan, I go back to last year bc he played a lot and we were better on D. He obviously wasn't faster, and I hope we can pull back to 2016-17 level results. It should be achieveable, but we are not there right now.

We had a run of some real freaks. Nick, Rondae, Aaron, there aren't many of those level guys running around. Randolph and Akot have upside in that area. I wish they return every night before I go to bed. Nick is a good example of someone who became a better defender over time and was a lockdown guy who could do anything by his junior year. Randolph/Akot have that potential, they just need to hit developing.

[sirhamsalot]

Anybody else miss Justin Simon besides me?

https://twitter.com/MarleyPaul22/status ... 3303735298" target="_blank

[Spaceman Spiff]

Anybody else miss Justin Simon besides me?

https://twitter.com/MarleyPaul22/status ... 3303735298" target="_blank

Simon is why we need to be praying for Akot and Randolph to return. They are high upside guys in a similar mold as JS.

[rgdeuce]

We go through this every freaking year

And every year Miller and Arizona miss the final four.

Adjustments can help make that not the case anymore.

Please tell me how a zone defense would have made any difference in the two Wisconsin losses, the Wichita State loss, the UConn loss...

[rgdeuce]

This is just my opinion, but I disagree, especially for this year's team. We struggle with the fundamentals and need as much teaching and practice on the base concepts. Progressing in those areas is huge for long term success.

Zone is something you have to know how to execute. Teaching it takes away from teaching time on man fundamentals, which is an area we need teaching time in.

Plus, it doesn't camouflage base issues. Dusan having difficulty moving is an issue. Zone doesn't give a greater capability to play him and Ayton together because one of them has to go to the perimeter to cover zone. It sort of has to be Ayton, and now you're playing Ayton in a position he's probably never played in his entire life.

Then you have our wings and their issues playing team D. Zone necessitates a lot of team D because you have to read the other players to keep gaps covered. If we suck at that in man, we would likely suck in zone too.

Been saying this for a while, and I totally agree with you. You think you hate Dusan defensively now? Watch him try to defend in a zone on the wing. Better yet, want Ristic closer to the rim? Well, now we just took one of the best rebounders in the country away from the basket.

Great posts, gentlemen.

[PHXCATS]

We go through this every freaking year

And every year Miller and Arizona miss the final four.

Adjustments can help make that not the case anymore.

Please tell me how a zone defense would have made any difference in the two Wisconsin losses, the Wichita State loss, the UConn loss...

So you do think a zone would have helped vs Xavier and Ohio State

Second time vs Wisconsin Ashley and Tarczewski had four fouls and Johnson and RHJ had 5. So you dont think that would have mattered at all?

UCONN Williams had foul trouble and was not as aggressive.

Yeah no help at all a zone would have been in those games.

[YoDeFoe]

Anybody else miss Justin Simon besides me?

https://twitter.com/MarleyPaul22/status ... 3303735298" target="_blank

Simon is why we need to be praying for Akot and Randolph to return. They are high upside guys in a similar mold as JS.

Similarly hopeful that we see growth out of Alkins this season, who has the length and athleticism to be a stopper.

[Spaceman Spiff]

We go through this every freaking year

And every year Miller and Arizona miss the final four.

Adjustments can help make that not the case anymore.

Please tell me how a zone defense would have made any difference in the two Wisconsin losses, the Wichita State loss, the UConn loss...

So you do think a zone would have helped vs Xavier and Ohio State

Second time vs Wisconsin Ashley and Tarczewski had four fouls and Johnson and RHJ had 5. So you dont think that would have mattered at all?

UCONN Williams had foul trouble and was not as aggressive.

Yeah no help at all a zone would have been in those games.

Wisconsin hit a record number of shots second time around. Zones give up outside shots. Explain how a zone helps vs a team on fire from the outside.

Shoot, pressing Wiscy would have been a better option. If we didn't turn them over, they weren't missing.

Zoning would have been bad with the 2011 team. Rebounding out of a zone is hard and we were trying to do it with a 6'8, 6'6, 6'6 front line. Even if you hide DWill, does it matter if you get abused on the glass?

Stop blaming every tourney loss on no zone. That argument isn't even worth countering.

[PHXCATS]

We go through this every freaking year

And every year Miller and Arizona miss the final four.

Adjustments can help make that not the case anymore.

Please tell me how a zone defense would have made any difference in the two Wisconsin losses, the Wichita State loss, the UConn loss...

So you do think a zone would have helped vs Xavier and Ohio State

Second time vs Wisconsin Ashley and Tarczewski had four fouls and Johnson and RHJ had 5. So you dont think that would have mattered at all?

UCONN Williams had foul trouble and was not as aggressive.

Yeah no help at all a zone would have been in those games.

Wisconsin hit a record number of shots second time around. Zones give up outside shots. Explain how a zone helps vs a team on fire from the outside.

Shoot, pressing Wiscy would have been a better option. If we didn't turn them over, they weren't missing.

Zoning would have been bad with the 2011 team. Rebounding out of a zone is hard and we were trying to do it with a 6'8, 6'6, 6'6 front line. Even if you hide DWill, does it matter if you get abused on the glass?

Stop blaming every tourney loss on no zone. That argument isn't even worth countering.

I never said once said that the zones were the reasons for the losses in the tournament. Please focus on what I say and not say that I say things I dont. I have begged and called for adjustments. Adjustments does not solely mean adding a zone in the mix on defense. Many other things are possible to adjust. Again I never said zones would have won UA the title ever or even won those games. I just gave areas they could have helped in, which you cannot deny that zones help protect against fouls.

Wisconsin took 20 FTs in the 2nd half. Some where when UA was fouling on purpose sure but if Wisconsin takes a few less and Arizona fouls a little less, defense can challenge more at the end and game could have been different.

I gave my reasons how they could have helped in those games. Yeah Wisconsin shot lights out so a zone would not have been much of a difference for those outside shots but it could have helped in other areas and protected two of our starters. Even with Wisconsin shooting lights out UA was still in the game the entire time.

[RiseAndFire]

Having two 7-footers on the floor is an advantage ...... except if one has to guard a guy who is playing the PF at 6’ 6.5” and is shooting threes.

What do you do with your twin towers now, huh Professor?

Im no professor but unless your entire bench has fouled out I would think you'd sub one of them out?

[Spaceman Spiff]

And every year Miller and Arizona miss the final four.

Adjustments can help make that not the case anymore.

Please tell me how a zone defense would have made any difference in the two Wisconsin losses, the Wichita State loss, the UConn loss...

So you do think a zone would have helped vs Xavier and Ohio State

Second time vs Wisconsin Ashley and Tarczewski had four fouls and Johnson and RHJ had 5. So you dont think that would have mattered at all?

UCONN Williams had foul trouble and was not as aggressive.

Yeah no help at all a zone would have been in those games.

Wisconsin hit a record number of shots second time around. Zones give up outside shots. Explain how a zone helps vs a team on fire from the outside.

Shoot, pressing Wiscy would have been a better option. If we didn't turn them over, they weren't missing.

Zoning would have been bad with the 2011 team. Rebounding out of a zone is hard and we were trying to do it with a 6'8, 6'6, 6'6 front line. Even if you hide DWill, does it matter if you get abused on the glass?

Stop blaming every tourney loss on no zone. That argument isn't even worth countering.

I never said once said that the zones were the reasons for the losses in the tournament. Please focus on what I say and not say that I say things I dont. I have begged and called for adjustments. Adjustments does not solely mean adding a zone in the mix on defense. Many other things are possible to adjust. Again I never said zones would have won UA the title ever or even won those games. I just gave areas they could have helped in, which you cannot deny that zones help protect against fouls.

Wisconsin took 20 FTs in the 2nd half. Some where when UA was fouling on purpose sure but if Wisconsin takes a few less and Arizona fouls a little less, defense can challenge more at the end and game could have been different.

I gave my reasons how they could have helped in those games. Yeah Wisconsin shot lights out so a zone would not have been much of a difference for those outside shots but it could have helped in other areas and protected two of our starters. Even with Wisconsin shooting lights out UA was still in the game the entire time.

Zone doesn't reduce fouls, it reduces fouls to an individual by limiting an offense's ability to attack an individual defender.

Rather than getting much further, the argument is inherently fruitless. Almost every basketball strategy helps in some ways and hurts in others. Zone has pros and cons, so does man. So does every other strategic decision.

That's my big problem with the "adjustments" crowd. It's based in monday morning quarterbacking and that alternate strategies would bring the pros instead of increasing the cons and having us lose by 15 instead of 5. You never know. If we trotted out an awful (strategy) vs (team) we just lose by more. All strategies can go well or poorly.

[EVCat]

We go through this every freaking year

And every year Miller and Arizona miss the final four.

Adjustments can help make that not the case anymore.

Please tell me how a zone defense would have made any difference in the two Wisconsin losses, the Wichita State loss, the UConn loss...

Their contested threes would have been more open? So they would have gotten tight shooting an open 3 and missed.

See? Easy.

[PHXCATS]

yeah with all of Miller's final fours no need to adjust anything

[EVCat]

yeah with all of Miller's final fours no need to adjust anything

Yeah...with Miller averaging a farther run into each tournament than Lute Olson and only 49 years old, there IS NO FUCKING NEED TO ADJUST ANYTHING ABOUT PLAYING MAN.

But you get hard over a marketing slogan. Fair enough.