Better starting lineup, 13/14 or 14/15?

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:09 pm

I'm talking about our healthy 13/14 lineup of TJ/NJ/AG/BA/Zeus vs TJ/SJ/RHJ/BA/Zeus.

It's a projection because we haven't seen SJ's fit yet. That said, I'm optimistic 14/15 is more complete and experienced. We'll miss the freaky athleticism, but we should be stronger and we'll be the most seasoned of the top teams.

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:20 pm

well:

junior tj<senior tj
junior nj?sj (no data to compare)
freshman ag=sophomore rhj
sophomore ba<junior ba (as long as he's 100% come november)
sophomore zeus<junior zeus

unless sj is worse than nj significantly in a defense and overall production standpoint, i'd say that with a healthy ashley this year's lineup is better.

thenewazcats · Post by **thenewazcats** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:29 pm

Give me last year's lineup with RHJ off the bench. We were defensive gods last year, and a no doubt title team with a healthy BAsh IMO. This year will be good but it won't be as good defensively. Still good enough for a title run, though.

NYCat · Post by **NYCat** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:42 pm

This year - presumably more offense

Last year - more defense

TJ 15 > No offense horrible shooter TJ 14

Stanley ≠ Nick's 2nd half season legs

Sophomore Shimmy > freshman Gordon, shooting is as legit as McCants making the deans list,

Bash 15 > Bash's foot 14

Zeuszeuski 15 > Can't hold on to the ball 14

its way too early to be discussing bball

CryptoCat · Post by **CryptoCat** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:18 am

TJ 15 > TJ 14 (I think this is no-brainer)
NJ 14 > SJ 15 - This should also be a no-brainer. NJ was an all-american, Pac-12 POY, defensive stud...ya'll think SJ is going to come in and match that, you're crazy. Same kind of thinking as saying Anu would come in and start as a frosh, or Spencer Hawes would average a triple-double. SJ is going to come in and contribute - you bet! At a POY/AA level? On a team as stacked as ours? No way.
RGJ 15 = AG 14 - it's possible RHJ15 is actually better. Let's see a shimmy on those free throws!
14 Bash = 15 Bash - I'm a little concerned about what we've been reading on the recovery time. I expect bash may be somewhat timid at the start of the year, and his minutes will be closely watched. He may be more efficient, but less playing time will probably make it a wash in the end.
Zeus 15 > Zeus 14 - Zeus may end up our most important offensive player. We all saw that playing through Zeus was the most efficient way for us to score. I think Zeus could give us 15 and 8 this season, which I think would lead the team in both categories.

Overall, I think the combination of TJ & Zeus' improvement makes up for the gap between NJ and SJ (because it's not a huge gap).

Where I think we're much, much, much better than in 14 is the bench. No matter who is in foul trouble, or who is having a rough night, there's someone waiting behind them.

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:26 am

Why does everything have to be a comparison? Was the 98 team better than the 97? Who the fuck cares?

I like every team that hits the floor. Just as excited this year as I was last, and so on.

Sorry, I know it's the offseason...but I had to rant.

Main Event · Post by **Main Event** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:32 am

Defensively 13/14
Offensively 14/15

EastCoastCat · Post by **EastCoastCat** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:36 am

13/14 - Massive, Massive, Massive
14/15 - Massive, Massive, Deep

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:36 am

Main Event wrote:Defensively 13/14
Offensively 14/15

I agree. But the defense of 14/15 may be so good, the difference doesn't matter, and the stronger offense should be what puts 14/15 over the top. Hopefully Zeus will be improved, and TJ comes around. The sophomore jump of RHJ should be something to behold.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:40 am

Olsondogg wrote:Why does everything have to be a comparison? Was the 98 team better than the 97? Who the fuck cares?

I like every team that hits the floor. Just as excited this year as I was last, and so on.

Sorry, I know it's the offseason...but I had to rant.

Because you touch yourself at night.

I'm surprised at the number of people who think RHJ=AG. I'd need to see RHJ with a consistent jumper before I got on that train. Otherwise, he's really similar, only smaller and not the explosive athlete AG is. Other than free throws and potentially the jumper, I don't see any area Rondae is superior to AG, and AG is superior in a few areas.

cats101 · Post by **cats101** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:29 am

Slight nod to 2013-14

BigSkyCatinMT · Post by **BigSkyCatinMT** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:51 am

I just spent the better part of the day talking to an old H.S. friend who lost his dad when he was 9. After reading that, I have an urge to shoot myself in the head. I have a 10 year old son. Please...

NYCat wrote:14-15 w/o seeing them play obviously but.. Last year it seemed like a log jam with the lineup resulting in a lot of scoring droughts (late 2nd half). This year a true 1,2,3,4 & 5, here as last year you had Nick who was a combo guard and Gordon (though great defensively and on the boards) was a tweener between a wing and a forward. MASSIVE MASSIVE MASSIVE. More experience, 1 Sr, 2 Jr, a So. McDonald's AA,

This year - presumably more offense

Last year - more defense

I rather let them score slightly more if the offense scores more; and its not like this lineup won't do the wear down, the cats still have size, athletic advantage most of the time. Size and athleticism will still affect opposition offenses - need more offense than defense at this point besides the defense is going from an A+ to a A- or B+ not a big dropoff.

TJ 15 > No offense horrible shooter TJ 14

Stanley > Nick shows up in the late half only if at all

Sophomore Shimmy > freshman Gordon, shooting is as legit as McCants making the deans list,

Bash 15 > Bash's foot 14

Zeuszeuski 15 > Can't hold on to the ball 14

its way too early to be discussing bball

Main Event · Post by **Main Event** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:10 pm

Longhorned wrote:
Main Event wrote:Defensively 13/14
Offensively 14/15
I agree. But the defense of 14/15 may be so good, the difference doesn't matter, and the stronger offense should be what puts 14/15 over the top. Hopefully Zeus will be improved, and TJ comes around. The sophomore jump of RHJ should be something to behold.

Rondae shows anything resembling a jumper next season he's the best player in the conference

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:12 pm

BigSkyCatinMT wrote:I just spent the better part of the day talking to an old H.S. friend who lost his dad when he was 9. After reading that, I have an urge to shoot myself in the head. I have a 10 year old son. Please...
NYCat wrote:14-15 w/o seeing them play obviously but.. Last year it seemed like a log jam with the lineup resulting in a lot of scoring droughts (late 2nd half). This year a true 1,2,3,4 & 5, here as last year you had Nick who was a combo guard and Gordon (though great defensively and on the boards) was a tweener between a wing and a forward. MASSIVE MASSIVE MASSIVE. More experience, 1 Sr, 2 Jr, a So. McDonald's AA,

This year - presumably more offense

Last year - more defense

I rather let them score slightly more if the offense scores more; and its not like this lineup won't do the wear down, the cats still have size, athletic advantage most of the time. Size and athleticism will still affect opposition offenses - need more offense than defense at this point besides the defense is going from an A+ to a A- or B+ not a big dropoff.

TJ 15 > No offense horrible shooter TJ 14

Stanley > Nick shows up in the late half only if at all

Sophomore Shimmy > freshman Gordon, shooting is as legit as McCants making the deans list,

Bash 15 > Bash's foot 14

Zeuszeuski 15 > Can't hold on to the ball 14

its way too early to be discussing bball

I hope you didn't mean my post. I'm sorry your friend has to go through that.

I don't post too much seriousness on the internet BC it's nice to get away from the **** that real life brings and just talk basketball. Again, I hope my post(s) weren't bothersome, and sorry about your friend's situation.

thenewazcats · Post by **thenewazcats** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:40 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Olsondogg wrote:Why does everything have to be a comparison? Was the 98 team better than the 97? Who the fuck cares?

I like every team that hits the floor. Just as excited this year as I was last, and so on.

Sorry, I know it's the offseason...but I had to rant.
Because you touch yourself at night.

I'm surprised at the number of people who think RHJ=AG. I'd need to see RHJ with a consistent jumper before I got on that train. Otherwise, he's really similar, only smaller and not the explosive athlete AG is. Other than free throws and potentially the jumper, I don't see any area Rondae is superior to AG, and AG is superior in a few areas.

I kind of agree with this sentiment. It's more or less surprise at people dismissing the impact losing Gordon and, to a lesser extent, Johnson will have on the defense. I think RHJ returns as our best defender, but he's a perimeter force on defense, not the all-over-the-floor blanket that Gordon was. I think RHJ was already better in a couple areas, mainly offensive vision, his first step and his ability to finish at the rim. He could be better as a sophomore with his jumpshot, and he's probably equally consistently giving effort. Still, he cannot match watch AG brought in terms of defensive force and dynamism.

Sure, '15 should be good defensively, but last year's team was the best defense in AZ history by a huge margin. It was so good that its efficiency margin neared '88 levels, and that was impressive considering how average the offense was. I can believe this idea that '15 is better offensively. I can't believe it's going to be one of AZ's best ever. Not saying it absolutely can't be but, like you feel about soph RHJ>frosh AG, it has to prove it first. Maybe '15 has a better combination of offense and defense, and I think they're definitely a title contender, but last year, especially before Ashley went down, we were witnessing pure domination. Not necessarily in scoring margin but in terms of the way the team controlled every game and wore opponents down. It was damn impressive, and when I see something like that, I don't easily believe it can be replicated. '15 starting lineup should still be really good.

salim'sheadband · Post by **salim'sheadband** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:10 pm

Overall, 14-15.

Stanley's probably better than Nick, every returning player is or should be better, and the bench is better.

Puerco · Post by **Puerco** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:45 pm

TJ needs to rediscover his three point shot if this year's team is going to be better on offense. No way we can replace Gordon's impact on the other side of the court. Therefore, the safe bet is on last year's starting lineup being more effective.

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:52 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Olsondogg wrote:Why does everything have to be a comparison? Was the 98 team better than the 97? Who the fuck cares?

I like every team that hits the floor. Just as excited this year as I was last, and so on.

Sorry, I know it's the offseason...but I had to rant.
Because you touch yourself at night.

I'm surprised at the number of people who think RHJ=AG. I'd need to see RHJ with a consistent jumper before I got on that train. Otherwise, he's really similar, only smaller and not the explosive athlete AG is. Other than free throws and potentially the jumper, I don't see any area Rondae is superior to AG, and AG is superior in a few areas.

when did ag have a jumper? rhj is a better offensive threat and ft shooter by far, and as a 2nd year player in miller's system, i can't see his defense being that far behind gordon's as a freshman.

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:54 pm

Puerco wrote:TJ needs to rediscover his three point shot if this year's team is going to be better on offense. No way we can replace Gordon's impact on the other side of the court. Therefore, the safe bet is on last year's starting lineup being more effective.

eh i dunno. 4 of the top 6 contributors return older and wiser. stud freshman coming in...outside of the ? at sj vs. nj, i don't see how you can definitively say last year's starting lineup+1 was any better.

Two Bits · Post by **Two Bits** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:57 pm

thenewazcats wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Olsondogg wrote:Why does everything have to be a comparison? Was the 98 team better than the 97? Who the fuck cares?

I like every team that hits the floor. Just as excited this year as I was last, and so on.

Sorry, I know it's the offseason...but I had to rant.
Because you touch yourself at night.

I'm surprised at the number of people who think RHJ=AG. I'd need to see RHJ with a consistent jumper before I got on that train. Otherwise, he's really similar, only smaller and not the explosive athlete AG is. Other than free throws and potentially the jumper, I don't see any area Rondae is superior to AG, and AG is superior in a few areas.
I kind of agree with this sentiment. It's more or less surprise at people dismissing the impact losing Gordon and, to a lesser extent, Johnson will have on the defense. I think RHJ returns as our best defender, but he's a perimeter force on defense, not the all-over-the-floor blanket that Gordon was. I think RHJ was already better in a couple areas, mainly offensive vision, his first step and his ability to finish at the rim. He could be better as a sophomore with his jumpshot, and he's probably equally consistently giving effort. Still, he cannot match watch AG brought in terms of defensive force and dynamism.

Sure, '15 should be good defensively, but last year's team was the best defense in AZ history by a huge margin. It was so good that its efficiency margin neared '88 levels, and that was impressive considering how average the offense was. I can believe this idea that '15 is better offensively. I can't believe it's going to be one of AZ's best ever. Not saying it absolutely can't be but, like you feel about soph RHJ>frosh AG, it has to prove it first. Maybe '15 has a better combination of offense and defense, and I think they're definitely a title contender, but last year, especially before Ashley went down, we were witnessing pure domination. Not necessarily in scoring margin but in terms of the way the team controlled every game and wore opponents down. It was damn impressive, and when I see something like that, I don't easily believe it can be replicated. '15 starting lineup should still be really good.

True that. Our defense with Ashley, and the effect it had against other teams was truly awe-inspiring. It gave me confidence that regardless the score during any point in the game, we'd end up winning. Similar to how I felt with the 2001 team.

BigSkyCatinMT · Post by **BigSkyCatinMT** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:29 am

I hope you didn't mean my post. I'm sorry your friend has to go through that.

I don't post too much seriousness on the internet BC it's nice to get away from the **** that real life brings and just talk basketball. Again, I hope my post(s) weren't bothersome, and sorry about your friend's situation.

We're good, Pooh. I had that occasional day where one couldn't get far enough away from me. You've always been a solid poster. I think we're all also adjusting to the new forum format.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:38 am

We will shoot from the line better. Rest is up in the air.

catgrad97 · Post by **catgrad97** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:56 am

If Ashley makes a full recovery, the sky's the limit. If he can't regain his form, we're in limbo until Kadeem Allen or Elliott Pitts make a surge along with Stanley Johnson.

BA's dead-on jumpers from three-point range and in were the biggest surprise IMHO of last season. Everybody else more or less performed to potential, but Ashley had a breakout campaign offensively and closed off the weak side defensively.

Up until the injury, everybody underestimated just how vital his outside (!) shot was to the weardown, as not even Gabe York could match his perimeter efficiency.

Extrapolating here a bit, he would've been the West Region and possible Final Four MVP if he had remained healthy.

I think he'll also learn from this off-season how to avoid being the foul magnet, fairly or not, that cost him so many first-half and late-game minutes. He's incredibly valuable to this team as the shutoff valve on defense and defense-stretcher on O.

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:58 am

I would expect Bash will make a full and complete recovery.

97cats · Post by **97cats** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:00 am

Olsondogg wrote:I would expect Bash will make a full and complete recovery.

yes

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:01 am

You can sprinkle in some "extreme motivation and determination" along with that recovery...

Also, I'd like to add, that Bash was the most improved, and arguably the best, player in a UA uniform last year...

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:17 am

Bash wasn't our best player. He made eleven threes. Typical game: 11 points, 6 boards. A trey every other game.

Fine player. Did improve. Will improve. Wasn't our best.

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:27 am

gumby wrote:Bash wasn't our best player. He made eleven threes. Typical game: 11 points, 6 boards. A trey every other game.

Fine player. Did improve. Will improve. Wasn't our best.

Only shot 29 threes, and his % was 3rd best on team...but shooting treys wasn't his game...but improved on the 3 he made the year prior. Shot 52% from the field, best outside of Zues...76% from the line, which was behind NJ in %...5.8 boards...

I said arguably our best player...

Daryl Zero · Post by **Daryl Zero** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:30 am

Olsondogg wrote:
gumby wrote:Bash wasn't our best player. He made eleven threes. Typical game: 11 points, 6 boards. A trey every other game.

Fine player. Did improve. Will improve. Wasn't our best.
Only shot 29 threes, and his % was 3rd best on team...but shooting treys wasn't his game...but improved on the 3 he made the year prior. Shot 52% from the field, best outside of Zues...76% from the line, which was behind NJ in %...5.8 boards...

I said arguably our best player...

I guess Gumby said arguably you're wrong.

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:38 am

Daryl Zero wrote:
Olsondogg wrote:
gumby wrote:Bash wasn't our best player. He made eleven threes. Typical game: 11 points, 6 boards. A trey every other game.

Fine player. Did improve. Will improve. Wasn't our best.
Only shot 29 threes, and his % was 3rd best on team...but shooting treys wasn't his game...but improved on the 3 he made the year prior. Shot 52% from the field, best outside of Zues...76% from the line, which was behind NJ in %...5.8 boards...

I said arguably our best player...
I guess Gumby said arguably you're wrong.

That's fine...he and you can argue I'm wrong...

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:09 pm

Daryl Zero wrote:
Olsondogg wrote:
gumby wrote:Bash wasn't our best player. He made eleven threes. Typical game: 11 points, 6 boards. A trey every other game.

Fine player. Did improve. Will improve. Wasn't our best.
Only shot 29 threes, and his % was 3rd best on team...but shooting treys wasn't his game...but improved on the 3 he made the year prior. Shot 52% from the field, best outside of Zues...76% from the line, which was behind NJ in %...5.8 boards...

I said arguably our best player...
I guess Gumby said arguably you're wrong.

No, he's definitely wrong.

Harvey Specter · Post by **Harvey Specter** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:22 pm

I think you could argue that Bash was the best offensive player on the team last season, and relative to his position - (without a doubt) the best shooter on the team.

And regardless of what stats people care to counter with, he would have been my top choice for "player I most want taking the shot at the end-of-the-game". Not that he had a lot of competition in that regard, though.

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:26 pm

Harvey Specter wrote:I think you could argue that Bash was the best offensive player on the team last season, and relative to his position - (without a doubt) the best shooter on the team.

And regardless of what stats people care to counter with, he would have been my top choice for "player I most want taking the shot at the end-of-the-game". Not that he had a lot of competition in that regard, though.

NJ was my choice.

salim'sheadband · Post by **salim'sheadband** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:32 pm

Ashley had the highest eFG% of anyone besides Zeus.

ElGatoBlanco · Post by **ElGatoBlanco** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:23 pm

You could argue he was the player we needed most to beat Wisconsin that's for sure.

midnightx · Post by **midnightx** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:37 pm

ElGatoBlanco wrote:You could argue he was the player we needed most to beat Wisconsin that's for sure.

Nicely stated.

BibbysTowelDude · Post by **BibbysTowelDude** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:25 pm

All I can say about Brandon Ashley is we don't lose a single game all year if he's in the lineup, when he went down we had no chance at a championship.

dcZONAfan · Post by **dcZONAfan** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:49 am

BibbysTowelDude wrote:All I can say about Brandon Ashley is we don't lose a single game all year if he's in the lineup, when he went down we had no chance at a championship.

That's how I felt WHEN he went down, but if you think we had no chance to win, even after we SHOULD have beat Wisconsin and easily could have beat Kentucky/Uconn, then you were watching a different tournament. Even without Brash, at our VERY best we were probably still the best team in the tourney, we just didn't play our very best against Wisky (or SDSU, for that matter).

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:23 am

salim'sheadband wrote:Ashley had the highest eFG% of anyone besides Zeus.

Typical of fours. Few assists. Also typical for the position.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:25 am

BibbysTowelDude wrote:All I can say about Brandon Ashley is we don't lose a single game all year if he's in the lineup, when he went down we had no chance at a championship.

We had more than "no chance." A 7 seed won it. We lost by two.

ElGatoBlanco · Post by **ElGatoBlanco** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:56 am

gumby wrote:
BibbysTowelDude wrote:All I can say about Brandon Ashley is we don't lose a single game all year if he's in the lineup, when he went down we had no chance at a championship.
We had more than "no chance." A 7 seed won it. We lost by one.

FIFY.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:57 pm

So twice as close!

azcat49 · Post by **azcat49** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:35 pm

I like any starting line up that has Aaron Gordon In it, so for me it would be last year. Now I do think this years team will be better because we get Ashley back and we will be much deeper

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:41 am

gumby wrote:So twice as close!

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, drive-in-movies...and Elite 8's.

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