The 2022-2023 Season Thread

[ChooChooCat]

Guys, stop worrying about the bigs situation. It'll be fine.

[Beachcat97]

Guys, stop worrying about the bigs situation. It'll be fine.

I love you, Choo. BTFD.

[Schnebly]

Wow nobody here even remembers the lottory. All is impermanent, even on the internet.

Please explain.
My googling did not explain.

It was the agreed-upon star example of our common misspellings on Goazcats.com over 15 years ago. There's probably only a few of us from back then who haven't died of old age.

Workin' on it.

[SabinoDrifter]

DT was in the instagram post from the official account a few minutes ago about 2023, so I think that is confirmation he's coming back.

[OriginalAZ]

Boom. Tommy's at it again.

Little concerned about his DraftExpress profile:

HEIGHT: 6'8" (203 cm)
WEIGHT: 0 lbs (- kg)
POSITION: PG/SG - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Fil ... in-126152/ ©DraftExpress

Looking at YouTube highlights, he seems like he has a decent stroke, frame and size. His speed and athleticism don't stand out but don't look like negatives.

I'd put him in the "how quickly he adjusts" category. Upside of a taller Pelle Larsson.

I'm worried about the 0 lbs

[Beachcat97]

DT was in the instagram post from the official account a few minutes ago about 2023, so I think that is confirmation he's coming back.

I haven't heard a single word about DT possibly leaving. No smoke = no fire?

Pretty sure we can count on DT being back.

[Jefe]

[84Cat]

Should we be worried about Zu?

[Jefe]

Should we be worried about Zu?

Pretty crazy that we aren't even considering him leaving. Why would he not be in that tweet? He's the star of the team now. Crap...

[Jefe]

Filip was also recruited by Miller...First of many battles he'll lose!

U16 stats from 2020: https://www.serbiahoop.com/Player/filip ... 25ae8-cc91

34.6P, 18.6R, 4.8A, 2.4S, 48%2PT, 46%3PT in 5 games(36MPG)

Even in U14 games he was averaging 28PPG: https://scoutbasketball.com/player/Filip-Borovicanin

STRENGTHS

Good size and length for his position
Has a nice feel for the game
Good handles, can beat his defender and drive either way to the basket
Can score from multiple spots on the floor

WEAKNESSES

Toughness and defensive effort could be harder
Lack of athleticism

Kid can shoot



When he was 10

Anyone wanna take a stab at a phonetic pronunciation of that last name?

Is it "Boor-o-veek-a-neen"? Or maybe "Boor-o-veech-a-neen"?

Not even close

[Spaceman Spiff]

Bacot returning for his senior year as well

Bacot vs Koloko is the classic reason I always pump how the NBA doesn't care about college production, they care how you fit at the next level. Bacot is probably more productive than Koloko, a better rebounder and scorer.

Koloko is a rare combo of size and rim protection. The NBA cares about that. Decent scorers and rebounders are common. 7 foot guys with block % in the 12s aren't and carve their own role as long as they can do everything else competently.

Look at Dewayne Dedmon. Never averaged more than 7.6 ppg or 7 rpg at USC. Great shot blocker. 9 year NBA career.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Boom. Tommy's at it again.

Little concerned about his DraftExpress profile:

HEIGHT: 6'8" (203 cm)
WEIGHT: 0 lbs (- kg)
POSITION: PG/SG - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Fil ... in-126152/ ©DraftExpress

Looking at YouTube highlights, he seems like he has a decent stroke, frame and size. His speed and athleticism don't stand out but don't look like negatives.

I'd put him in the "how quickly he adjusts" category. Upside of a taller Pelle Larsson.

I'm worried about the 0 lbs

Yeah, that's what jumped out at me. I prefer players who weigh something.

[Jefe]

Im seeing 180lbs. Get that boy on campus asap

[UAEebs86]

Get him on the Sonoran hot dog diet.

[RaisingArizona]

Bacot returning for his senior year as well

Koloko is a rare combo of size and rim protection.

And an especially rare amount of lateral quickness and agility on the perimeter. His combination of rim protection and ability to move his feet after switches or against a skilled big is what makes him a defensive unicorn.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Bacot returning for his senior year as well

Koloko is a rare combo of size and rim protection.

And an especially rare amount of lateral quickness and agility on the perimeter. His combination of rim protection and ability to move his feet after switches or against a skilled big is what makes him a defensive unicorn.

He has some ups and downs, but a lot of it is just ironing out footwork with experience. He isn't a KD/Giannis type 7 footer who will move like a guard, but he definitely isn't a stationary object.

It's why I tossed out Dedmon playing for so long in the NBA. Dedmon's an ok rebounder and has minimal offense, but he's an athletic 7 footer who can block shots and he's spent almost a decade in the league based on that.

No reason Koloko can't be a better version of Dedmon.

[ChooChooCat]

Should we be worried about Zu?

Pretty crazy that we aren't even considering him leaving. Why would he not be in that tweet? He's the star of the team now. Crap...

He’s in the Instagram photos, where you can post more than 4 pictures. Relax.

[Irish27]

[Irish27]

Sounds like we might be getting another Euro commit soon.

[azgreg]

Sounds like we might be getting another Euro commit soon.

Other than the 9' 0 lb PG we've been talking about?

[HiCat]

Arizona Basketball adds Serbian guard Filip Borovicanin for 2022
by Eric Townsend 58 seconds ago Follow @ericdtownsend

Adding a late piece to the recruiting class of 2022, Tommy Lloyd and Arizona Basketball received a commitment from 2022 Serbian guard, Filip Borovicanin.

While things have been somewhat quiet on the recruiting trail for Arizona Basketball this off-season, that doesn’t mean that Coach Tommy Lloyd and staff haven’t been busy working.

Making news via social media on Tuesday afternoon, Lloyd aka “The International Whisper”, secured a surprise commitment from Serbian combo guard/wing, Filip Borovicanin.

Jonathan Givony
@DraftExpress
Filip Borovicanin has committed to Arizona in the class of 2022, he told ESPN. The 6-8, 18-year old Serbian from KK Beko averaged 20 points, 9 rebounds, 4.4 assists in 27 minutes in the 1MRL, where his team won the championship. Big, skilled perimeter player with good feel.

https://zonazealots.com/2022/04/19/ariz ... anin-2022/

[U.P. Zona Fan]

Love me some big guards that can shoot

[Spaceman Spiff]

Love me some big guards that can shoot

TBH, I don't see him as a guard at all. He looks to me like a 3 and stretch 4 and like we'd be doing him a disservice trying to shoehorn his game into a guard role.

His level of athleticism...I don't see it working as a guard on the NCAA level. That isn't a negative, a 3 and 4 with a guard-like skill set is a positive, but I just don't see his future as a guard.

[goslingswagg]

Love me some big guards that can shoot

TBH, I don't see him as a guard at all. He looks to me like a 3 and stretch 4 and like we'd be doing him a disservice trying to shoehorn his game into a guard role.

His level of athleticism...I don't see it working as a guard on the NCAA level. That isn't a negative, a 3 and 4 with a guard-like skill set is a positive, but I just don't see his future as a guard.

100% agree - he looks pretty clearly to me to be a true 3, with the ability to play some 4 if he can put on weight, but he most definitely should not be playing the 2. imagine him guarding a Caleb Love-type player - would be a disaster imo.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Love me some big guards that can shoot

TBH, I don't see him as a guard at all. He looks to me like a 3 and stretch 4 and like we'd be doing him a disservice trying to shoehorn his game into a guard role.

His level of athleticism...I don't see it working as a guard on the NCAA level. That isn't a negative, a 3 and 4 with a guard-like skill set is a positive, but I just don't see his future as a guard.

100% agree - he looks pretty clearly to me to be a true 3, with the ability to play some 4 if he can put on weight, but he most definitely should not be playing the 2. imagine him guarding a Caleb Love-type player - would be a disaster imo.

100%. I don't think it would be fair to him to try to make him defend guards, especially quick, dynamic ones. I'd say defensively he reminds me of Brandon Ashley with shorter arms, i.e., capable of defending 3's, probably best suited for 4's, not one you want matching with a guard.

[Beachcat97]

Hey, getting a commitment from FB (plus this other, potentially bigger recruit on the horizon) just tells me that Tommy's international recruiting strength is the real deal. These guys are already picking AZ over other good programs.

[Beachcat97]

I mean, we're losing our two best players from this past season. This is not a top 15 roster right now, but given what happens in the offseason, we could get there. We need size and shooting.

Isn't it crazy how we almost never keep our guys for that one extra season where we could get over the hump? Meanwhile, unc and ucla are set to return their entire rosters.

Expected to lose Benn. Thought CK might come back for his senior year, but I completely understand his decision.

It's modern CBB. I look at it as the pitfall of today. If Lauri doesn't blow up as a freshman, imagine him and Ayton together. If Nnaji doesn't blow up, imagine how much better 20-21 is with him as a soph.

In modern CBB, developing players too well is a gift and a curse. We saw the gift with Benn and Koloko this year. Now we see the curse.

But have we EVER had it happened where one or two guys returned to school for us, bypassing the pros for a year and putting us in a position to build on a previous season's success? It's even happened at Duke and Kentucky over the last decade. Kansas too. It's possible I'm forgetting seasons where we *did* have guys return, but more often, we haven't been able to keep the core of our roster long enough to sustain momentum from a previous season. Happened with Lute a few times, and it's probably not a coincidence that he got to the FF multiple times, unlike Miller.

14-15 benefitted from Rondae and Ashley returning. Ashley was partially the injury, of course. Trier returning for 17-18, same. Benn did it last year where he'd probably have been a 1st rounder.

I have to disagree a bit in that I'm not certain Duke, Kansas or Kentucky had anyone much higher profile than the guys I named off return unexpectedly.

What's this? The freaking Wooden Award winner returning to Kentucky? Figures. So far, key players returning to UK, Duke, Kansas, ucla, and UNC. By "key players," I mean guys who, by staying in school, elevate their teams' prospects significantly.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-baske ... all-season

[Spaceman Spiff]

But have we EVER had it happened where one or two guys returned to school for us, bypassing the pros for a year and putting us in a position to build on a previous season's success? It's even happened at Duke and Kentucky over the last decade. Kansas too. It's possible I'm forgetting seasons where we *did* have guys return, but more often, we haven't been able to keep the core of our roster long enough to sustain momentum from a previous season. Happened with Lute a few times, and it's probably not a coincidence that he got to the FF multiple times, unlike Miller.

14-15 benefitted from Rondae and Ashley returning. Ashley was partially the injury, of course. Trier returning for 17-18, same. Benn did it last year where he'd probably have been a 1st rounder.

I have to disagree a bit in that I'm not certain Duke, Kansas or Kentucky had anyone much higher profile than the guys I named off return unexpectedly.

What's this? The freaking Wooden Award winner returning to Kentucky? Figures. So far, key players returning to UK, Duke, Kansas, ucla, and UNC. By "key players," I mean guys who, by staying in school, elevate their teams' prospects significantly.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-baske ... all-season

Dunno, I feel like Tshibwe proves a few things I (and my unofficial partner, YoDeFoe) have said.

One blessing of nbadraft.net being super slow to update is you can see where a guy was rated for a bit before they update to remove him. Tshibwe was projected as the 45th pick.

This echoes what I said about Bacot above and the basic tenor of my responses to you. It isn't college productivity. Bacot and Tshibwe are very productive college players, but their pro projection lags.

This hits what I said to you earlier, lottery picks leave. First rounders almost always leave. Guys who are great in college but lack the NBA qualities that get them into the first round (I used Jalen Brunson and Allonzo Trier as some examples) are the returners you watch for. Those guys leave sometimes too, like Nick Johnson, but they stay at a much more significant rate.

[dmjcat]

[Spaceman Spiff]

Not a shock and another reason I say we get the same sort of results on players staying or leaving other programs do. The meek end to Tubelis's year meant he didn't have much draft stock.

Time to become a 3 point threat with more moves to his right hand side.

[Beachcat97]

Dunno, I feel like Tshibwe proves a few things I (and my unofficial partner, YoDeFoe) have said.

One blessing of nbadraft.net being super slow to update is you can see where a guy was rated for a bit before they update to remove him. Tshibwe was projected as the 45th pick.

This echoes what I said about Bacot above and the basic tenor of my responses to you. It isn't college productivity. Bacot and Tshibwe are very productive college players, but their pro projection lags.

This hits what I said to you earlier, lottery picks leave. First rounders almost always leave. Guys who are great in college but lack the NBA qualities that get them into the first round (I used Jalen Brunson and Allonzo Trier as some examples) are the returners you watch for. Those guys leave sometimes too, like Nick Johnson, but they stay at a much more significant rate.

These are all good points, Spiff. I don't disagree.

Here's another one. He's been overrated since last year's tournament, and now he's going to be undrafted.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/337 ... la-scoring

[Chicat]

Not a shock and another reason I say we get the same sort of results on players staying or leaving other programs do. The meek end to Tubelis's year meant he didn't have much draft stock.

Time to become a 3 point threat with more moves to his right hand side.

He 100% needs to do about eleventy million dribble drives to the right in practice this offseason. Teams knew he was only going to go left and just shut him down last year. Gotta add to the arsenal in order to have any kind of success next year.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Dunno, I feel like Tshibwe proves a few things I (and my unofficial partner, YoDeFoe) have said.

One blessing of nbadraft.net being super slow to update is you can see where a guy was rated for a bit before they update to remove him. Tshibwe was projected as the 45th pick.

This echoes what I said about Bacot above and the basic tenor of my responses to you. It isn't college productivity. Bacot and Tshibwe are very productive college players, but their pro projection lags.

This hits what I said to you earlier, lottery picks leave. First rounders almost always leave. Guys who are great in college but lack the NBA qualities that get them into the first round (I used Jalen Brunson and Allonzo Trier as some examples) are the returners you watch for. Those guys leave sometimes too, like Nick Johnson, but they stay at a much more significant rate.

These are all good points, Spiff. I don't disagree.

Here's another one. He's been overrated since last year's tournament, and now he's going to be undrafted.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/337 ... la-scoring

Juzang's stock reminds me of the Jay-Z diss line to Nas: "fell from top ten to not mentioned at all."

He was rising fast after the tourney last year, went to the combine to solidify the 1st round grade and then completely crapped the bed in his combine scrimmages. This year was more of stagnating and now his stock is basically nonexistent.

[Beachcat97]

Dunno, I feel like Tshibwe proves a few things I (and my unofficial partner, YoDeFoe) have said.

One blessing of nbadraft.net being super slow to update is you can see where a guy was rated for a bit before they update to remove him. Tshibwe was projected as the 45th pick.

This echoes what I said about Bacot above and the basic tenor of my responses to you. It isn't college productivity. Bacot and Tshibwe are very productive college players, but their pro projection lags.

This hits what I said to you earlier, lottery picks leave. First rounders almost always leave. Guys who are great in college but lack the NBA qualities that get them into the first round (I used Jalen Brunson and Allonzo Trier as some examples) are the returners you watch for. Those guys leave sometimes too, like Nick Johnson, but they stay at a much more significant rate.

These are all good points, Spiff. I don't disagree.

Here's another one. He's been overrated since last year's tournament, and now he's going to be undrafted.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/337 ... la-scoring

Juzang's stock reminds me of the Jay-Z diss line to Nas: "fell from top ten to not mentioned at all."

He was rising fast after the tourney last year, went to the combine to solidify the 1st round grade and then completely crapped the bed in his combine scrimmages. This year was more of stagnating and now his stock is basically nonexistent.

Yep. How's that player development at ucla going? Their guys keep coming back because they're not good enough for the pros. Jaquez is their best player, and even he knows it's a waste of time to declare for the draft. And Juzang blew it by coming back when his draft stock peaked last spring. Anyway, f ucla.

Once the dust settles from all these draft decisions, it'll be nice to get a clearer sense of how our and others' rosters look.

[AzCatFan2]

Call it lack of player development, but there are some players who are solid college ballers, who have a great NCAA Tournament. But the tourney is a small sample size, and the player just isn't 1st round material. Miles Simon comes to mind. Juzang strikes me as this kind of player. Would love to have him on our roster, as he's a solid D1 player. But over the course of a 30+ game NCAA season, the talent doesn't translate to an 80+ game NBA season. And the one magical tournament run is just a player getting the utmost out of his talent for 3 weeks, which just isn't possible to do over months.

[Spaceman Spiff]

These are all good points, Spiff. I don't disagree.

Here's another one. He's been overrated since last year's tournament, and now he's going to be undrafted.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/337 ... la-scoring

Juzang's stock reminds me of the Jay-Z diss line to Nas: "fell from top ten to not mentioned at all."

He was rising fast after the tourney last year, went to the combine to solidify the 1st round grade and then completely crapped the bed in his combine scrimmages. This year was more of stagnating and now his stock is basically nonexistent.

Yep. How's that player development at ucla going? Their guys keep coming back because they're not good enough for the pros. Jaquez is their best player, and even he knows it's a waste of time to declare for the draft. And Juzang blew it by coming back when his draft stock peaked last spring. Anyway, f ucla.

Once the dust settles from all these draft decisions, it'll be nice to get a clearer sense of how our and others' rosters look.

I'm not sure I blame player development. I look at Juzang and it's more like this is who he is, and he just had an unusually hot run during the 2021 tourney that led people to overrate his ability, but he just returned to who he always was.

Like the human version of Oregon State.

Juzang is a decent shooter but not a sniper. He has decent size and athleticism, but nothing stands out. He's run of the mill physically and jack of all trades, master of none.

Guys with standout things get drafted. Juzang is decent at everything but nothing stands out. I'd assume his senior year looks just like his first 3. The 2021 tourney was a mirage.

[EVCat]

But have we EVER had it happened where one or two guys returned to school for us, bypassing the pros for a year and putting us in a position to build on a previous season's success? It's even happened at Duke and Kentucky over the last decade. Kansas too. It's possible I'm forgetting seasons where we *did* have guys return, but more often, we haven't been able to keep the core of our roster long enough to sustain momentum from a previous season. Happened with Lute a few times, and it's probably not a coincidence that he got to the FF multiple times, unlike Miller.

14-15 benefitted from Rondae and Ashley returning. Ashley was partially the injury, of course. Trier returning for 17-18, same. Benn did it last year where he'd probably have been a 1st rounder.

I have to disagree a bit in that I'm not certain Duke, Kansas or Kentucky had anyone much higher profile than the guys I named off return unexpectedly.

What's this? The freaking Wooden Award winner returning to Kentucky? Figures. So far, key players returning to UK, Duke, Kansas, ucla, and UNC. By "key players," I mean guys who, by staying in school, elevate their teams' prospects significantly.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-baske ... all-season

Dunno, I feel like Tshibwe proves a few things I (and my unofficial partner, YoDeFoe) have said.

One blessing of nbadraft.net being super slow to update is you can see where a guy was rated for a bit before they update to remove him. Tshibwe was projected as the 45th pick.

This echoes what I said about Bacot above and the basic tenor of my responses to you. It isn't college productivity. Bacot and Tshibwe are very productive college players, but their pro projection lags.

This hits what I said to you earlier, lottery picks leave. First rounders almost always leave. Guys who are great in college but lack the NBA qualities that get them into the first round (I used Jalen Brunson and Allonzo Trier as some examples) are the returners you watch for. Those guys leave sometimes too, like Nick Johnson, but they stay at a much more significant rate.

Damon did it a billion years ago, when the enter but don't sign with an agent rule first started. I want to say Jason Gardner did it as well once, when everyone else feom 2001 was leaving... but I can't remember.

[Beachcat97]

These are all good points, Spiff. I don't disagree.

Here's another one. He's been overrated since last year's tournament, and now he's going to be undrafted.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/337 ... la-scoring

Juzang's stock reminds me of the Jay-Z diss line to Nas: "fell from top ten to not mentioned at all."

He was rising fast after the tourney last year, went to the combine to solidify the 1st round grade and then completely crapped the bed in his combine scrimmages. This year was more of stagnating and now his stock is basically nonexistent.

Yep. How's that player development at ucla going? Their guys keep coming back because they're not good enough for the pros. Jaquez is their best player, and even he knows it's a waste of time to declare for the draft. And Juzang blew it by coming back when his draft stock peaked last spring. Anyway, f ucla.

Once the dust settles from all these draft decisions, it'll be nice to get a clearer sense of how our and others' rosters look.

I'm not sure I blame player development.

Spiff, they're going to return the core of a roster of mostly 5-star players for a third straight year. Isn't part of the job of a college program to develop guys into pros?

[ChooChooCat]

These are all good points, Spiff. I don't disagree.

Here's another one. He's been overrated since last year's tournament, and now he's going to be undrafted.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/337 ... la-scoring

Juzang's stock reminds me of the Jay-Z diss line to Nas: "fell from top ten to not mentioned at all."

He was rising fast after the tourney last year, went to the combine to solidify the 1st round grade and then completely crapped the bed in his combine scrimmages. This year was more of stagnating and now his stock is basically nonexistent.

Yep. How's that player development at ucla going? Their guys keep coming back because they're not good enough for the pros. Jaquez is their best player, and even he knows it's a waste of time to declare for the draft. And Juzang blew it by coming back when his draft stock peaked last spring. Anyway, f ucla.

Once the dust settles from all these draft decisions, it'll be nice to get a clearer sense of how our and others' rosters look.

I'm not sure I blame player development.

Spiff, they're going to return the core of a roster of mostly 5-star players for a third straight year. Isn't part of the job of a college program to develop guys into pros?

Most are actually 4 star guys. Basically the entire team has been developed to above average to great NCAA players, but their ceilings as pros are just limited. Jacquez for instance is awesome, but he's not playing in the league. Juzang is basically a bigger Allonzo Trier, so his ceiling is capped and he should've left when it made sense to (fresh off a Final Four run). Tyger is great, but yeah at best a 3rd string in the league. They're developing their players just fine, they just have natural limitations that development can't change.

[Spaceman Spiff]

These are all good points, Spiff. I don't disagree.

Here's another one. He's been overrated since last year's tournament, and now he's going to be undrafted.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/337 ... la-scoring

Juzang's stock reminds me of the Jay-Z diss line to Nas: "fell from top ten to not mentioned at all."

He was rising fast after the tourney last year, went to the combine to solidify the 1st round grade and then completely crapped the bed in his combine scrimmages. This year was more of stagnating and now his stock is basically nonexistent.

Yep. How's that player development at ucla going? Their guys keep coming back because they're not good enough for the pros. Jaquez is their best player, and even he knows it's a waste of time to declare for the draft. And Juzang blew it by coming back when his draft stock peaked last spring. Anyway, f ucla.

Once the dust settles from all these draft decisions, it'll be nice to get a clearer sense of how our and others' rosters look.

I'm not sure I blame player development.

Spiff, they're going to return the core of a roster of mostly 5-star players for a third straight year. Isn't part of the job of a college program to develop guys into pros?

What Choo said. UCLA has guys who are capped out because they lack pro physical skills.

In a way, it's ideal for a college. They're good enough to be very productive in college, but lack abilities to make them attractive in the draft.

[AzCatFan2]

Tyger's issue is his size. He actually was a much better player as a sophomore because he was a consistent shooter. Could lay off of him as a freshman. But not last year. But at a listed 5' 11", Tyger will always have an issue guarding larger guards.

Zuzang is a fine college player. But his ceiling is end of the bench NBA. Just not an elite athlete, elite shooter, elite rebounder or elite defender. And you need to be elite in at least one to play in the NBA. Mathurin is an elite athlete. Koloko is an elite rim defender, which gives them a chance at success at the next level.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Tyger's issue is his size. He actually was a much better player as a sophomore because he was a consistent shooter. Could lay off of him as a freshman. But not last year. But at a listed 5' 11", Tyger will always have an issue guarding larger guards.

Zuzang is a fine college player. But his ceiling is end of the bench NBA. Just not an elite athlete, elite shooter, elite rebounder or elite defender. And you need to be elite in at least one to play in the NBA. Mathurin is an elite athlete. Koloko is an elite rim defender, which gives them a chance at success at the next level.

Tyger is small but not super quick or a great shooter. To be a real pro prospect at his size, you need to offset your size with speed and shooting, but he doesn't.

You almost never build the returning core beachcat talks about by guys turning down the NBA. You build that core by the NBA turning down your guys.

The guys who are returning are doing it because their stock is low second round or UDFA, not because they're really hardcore committed to college. Like I said above, name me the last guy anywhere who got a lottery grade and returned.

Tim Duncan?

[Beachcat97]

The guys who are returning are doing it because their stock is low second round or UDFA, not because they're really hardcore committed to college. Like I said above, name me the last guy anywhere who got a lottery grade and returned.

Tim Duncan?

This is all true, and man does it put colleges in a weird situation with recruiting. You absolutely want to get the Aaron Gordons and Deandre Aytons when you can, but the more of these guys you put on your roster, the more you're risking a mass exodus and poor continuity from year to year.

It's the same conversation we've had many times on here. The best programs are those that maintain a core of very good (not necessarily elite) 2 to 3 year players from year to year. If you go the other way, and just offer a scholarship to every McDsAA, you end up being Kentucky and Duke. These programs have gotten to the FF, but they've also gotten knocked out the first weekend when they were protected seeds.

Fittingly, given yesterday's news, this bring up Villanova. Wright arguably managed his roster better than any coach over the past decade. He did get the occasional elite recruit, but a lot of the guys who carried that team to those titles were *not* 5-star players.

[UAEebs86]

Tyger's issue is his size. He actually was a much better player as a sophomore because he was a consistent shooter. Could lay off of him as a freshman. But not last year. But at a listed 5' 11", Tyger will always have an issue guarding larger guards.

Zuzang is a fine college player. But his ceiling is end of the bench NBA. Just not an elite athlete, elite shooter, elite rebounder or elite defender. And you need to be elite in at least one to play in the NBA. Mathurin is an elite athlete. Koloko is an elite rim defender, which gives them a chance at success at the next level.

Tyger is small but not super quick or a great shooter. To be a real pro prospect at his size, you need to offset your size with speed and shooting, but he doesn't.

You almost never build the returning core beachcat talks about by guys turning down the NBA. You build that core by the NBA turning down your guys.

The guys who are returning are doing it because their stock is low second round or UDFA, not because they're really hardcore committed to college. Like I said above, name me the last guy anywhere who got a lottery grade and returned.

Tim Duncan?

And then Mike Bibby the next year? Not sure if he got a lottery grade in 1997, but he was the second overall pick in 1998.

[EastCoastCat]

Tyger's issue is his size. He actually was a much better player as a sophomore because he was a consistent shooter. Could lay off of him as a freshman. But not last year. But at a listed 5' 11", Tyger will always have an issue guarding larger guards.

Zuzang is a fine college player. But his ceiling is end of the bench NBA. Just not an elite athlete, elite shooter, elite rebounder or elite defender. And you need to be elite in at least one to play in the NBA. Mathurin is an elite athlete. Koloko is an elite rim defender, which gives them a chance at success at the next level.

Tyger is small but not super quick or a great shooter. To be a real pro prospect at his size, you need to offset your size with speed and shooting, but he doesn't.

You almost never build the returning core beachcat talks about by guys turning down the NBA. You build that core by the NBA turning down your guys.

The guys who are returning are doing it because their stock is low second round or UDFA, not because they're really hardcore committed to college. Like I said above, name me the last guy anywhere who got a lottery grade and returned.

Tim Duncan?

David Robinson?

[Spaceman Spiff]

Tyger's issue is his size. He actually was a much better player as a sophomore because he was a consistent shooter. Could lay off of him as a freshman. But not last year. But at a listed 5' 11", Tyger will always have an issue guarding larger guards.

Zuzang is a fine college player. But his ceiling is end of the bench NBA. Just not an elite athlete, elite shooter, elite rebounder or elite defender. And you need to be elite in at least one to play in the NBA. Mathurin is an elite athlete. Koloko is an elite rim defender, which gives them a chance at success at the next level.

Tyger is small but not super quick or a great shooter. To be a real pro prospect at his size, you need to offset your size with speed and shooting, but he doesn't.

You almost never build the returning core beachcat talks about by guys turning down the NBA. You build that core by the NBA turning down your guys.

The guys who are returning are doing it because their stock is low second round or UDFA, not because they're really hardcore committed to college. Like I said above, name me the last guy anywhere who got a lottery grade and returned.

Tim Duncan?

And then Mike Bibby the next year? Not sure if he got a lottery grade in 1997, but he was the second overall pick in 1998.

Maybe, I forget whether people projected Bibby. I did remember Duncan being a potential #1 and definite top 3 when he returned. Bibby was great and obviously would have peaked his stock in the tourney, so it wouldn't shock me if he went lottery after his freshman year.

Either way...I mean, the big takeaway for me is you probably need to go at least 20 years to find a consensus lottery pick who returned to school.

[ChooChooCat]

Tyger's issue is his size. He actually was a much better player as a sophomore because he was a consistent shooter. Could lay off of him as a freshman. But not last year. But at a listed 5' 11", Tyger will always have an issue guarding larger guards.

Zuzang is a fine college player. But his ceiling is end of the bench NBA. Just not an elite athlete, elite shooter, elite rebounder or elite defender. And you need to be elite in at least one to play in the NBA. Mathurin is an elite athlete. Koloko is an elite rim defender, which gives them a chance at success at the next level.

Tyger is small but not super quick or a great shooter. To be a real pro prospect at his size, you need to offset your size with speed and shooting, but he doesn't.

You almost never build the returning core beachcat talks about by guys turning down the NBA. You build that core by the NBA turning down your guys.

The guys who are returning are doing it because their stock is low second round or UDFA, not because they're really hardcore committed to college. Like I said above, name me the last guy anywhere who got a lottery grade and returned.

Tim Duncan?

And then Mike Bibby the next year? Not sure if he got a lottery grade in 1997, but he was the second overall pick in 1998.

Joakim Noah.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Tyger's issue is his size. He actually was a much better player as a sophomore because he was a consistent shooter. Could lay off of him as a freshman. But not last year. But at a listed 5' 11", Tyger will always have an issue guarding larger guards.

Zuzang is a fine college player. But his ceiling is end of the bench NBA. Just not an elite athlete, elite shooter, elite rebounder or elite defender. And you need to be elite in at least one to play in the NBA. Mathurin is an elite athlete. Koloko is an elite rim defender, which gives them a chance at success at the next level.

Tyger is small but not super quick or a great shooter. To be a real pro prospect at his size, you need to offset your size with speed and shooting, but he doesn't.

You almost never build the returning core beachcat talks about by guys turning down the NBA. You build that core by the NBA turning down your guys.

The guys who are returning are doing it because their stock is low second round or UDFA, not because they're really hardcore committed to college. Like I said above, name me the last guy anywhere who got a lottery grade and returned.

Tim Duncan?

And then Mike Bibby the next year? Not sure if he got a lottery grade in 1997, but he was the second overall pick in 1998.

Joakim Noah.

Not bad. I forgot him.

He was the 9th pick after his senior year but I think you're right in that he was probably a lottery pick after his junior year.

I guess maybe Horford and Brewer count from that same team, and they actually went even higher when I look back.

[AzCatFan2]

Noah was an odd duck. His mother a super-model, and dad a tennis star. Didn't need the money, and Joakim was an eccentric guy that enjoyed campus life. Most college basketball players don't come from that kind of money. And if/when they do, aren't fans of being a student.

As for Tyger, agreed, he's not an elite athlete, nor shooter. Will need to be to play in the NBA, especially at under 6 feet. Damon shot over 45% from 3 his senior year, while averaging over 7 assists. Tyger has improved his shot a lot, but will have to come close to 40% from outside to get a shot at the next level.

[Beachcat97]

Tyger's issue is his size. He actually was a much better player as a sophomore because he was a consistent shooter. Could lay off of him as a freshman. But not last year. But at a listed 5' 11", Tyger will always have an issue guarding larger guards.

Zuzang is a fine college player. But his ceiling is end of the bench NBA. Just not an elite athlete, elite shooter, elite rebounder or elite defender. And you need to be elite in at least one to play in the NBA. Mathurin is an elite athlete. Koloko is an elite rim defender, which gives them a chance at success at the next level.

Tyger is small but not super quick or a great shooter. To be a real pro prospect at his size, you need to offset your size with speed and shooting, but he doesn't.

You almost never build the returning core beachcat talks about by guys turning down the NBA. You build that core by the NBA turning down your guys.

The guys who are returning are doing it because their stock is low second round or UDFA, not because they're really hardcore committed to college. Like I said above, name me the last guy anywhere who got a lottery grade and returned.

Tim Duncan?

And then Mike Bibby the next year? Not sure if he got a lottery grade in 1997, but he was the second overall pick in 1998.

Joakim Noah.

Not bad. I forgot him.

He was the 9th pick after his senior year but I think you're right in that he was probably a lottery pick after his junior year.

I guess maybe Horford and Brewer count from that same team, and they actually went even higher when I look back.

Gonna throw a few more names out. Not sure these guys would've been lotto picks if they'd come out a year earlier, but they at least would've had a shot at it:

Justin Jackson (UNC)
Terrence Jones (UK)
Kemba Walker (UConn)
Kyle Singler (Duke)
Tyler Hansbrough (UNC)
Brandon Rush (Kansas)

Feel free to argue that these guys would've been lotto picks a year before they *actually* left, but I think they were at least in the conversation. Another thing: all of these guys were projected to be drafted higher than Koloko this year.