The 2022-2023 Season Thread

[Postmaster]

I’d be disinterested too, if I wasn’t seeing the floor.

That's why we don't want either you or Nowell on the team...

That’s probably the least of reasons why we don’t want me on the team.

[EastCoastCat]

I’d be disinterested too, if I wasn’t seeing the floor.

That's why we don't want either you or Nowell on the team...

There'a a give and take here (and I know you're joking with ECC). Yes, you want a player to stay engaged.

The other side is that if Lloyd is committing to more of a developmental approach, it's a meaningful thing that a coaching goal is keeping players engaged. One of the biggest challenges, especially with 18-19 year olds, is keeping engagement and drive without playing time.

PT is the most powerful motivator a player has. When a guy like Nowell is buried and it becomes clear he isn't getting unburied, a coaching staff earns their money by keeping engagement.

I mean, if things shake out where we get a transfer wing and the Euro big...that 6'8 kid we just recruited isn't looking at much PT, and we need to keep his engagement if he has a future here with something other than playing time.

It isn't all on Lloyd by a long shot. I defended Miller with guys like Justin Simon, and it's just a big challenge these days. Maintaining a developmental approach is 10x harder than it was 20 years ago.

You were right. I was joking - well maybe half joking.

Spiff, totally agree with your point the coaching staff does bear some responsibility but on the flip side it's also a learning moment for the player. Sometimes life throws you a curve ball/bad brake and you can either whine and become "disinterested" or you can work your ass off and either prove the coaches wrong or at the very least put yourself in a position that if you decide to leave the coaching staff will provide a good recommendation.

Not saying that's happened with Nowell because I don't know but imo it works both ways.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I’d be disinterested too, if I wasn’t seeing the floor.

That's why we don't want either you or Nowell on the team...

There'a a give and take here (and I know you're joking with ECC). Yes, you want a player to stay engaged.

The other side is that if Lloyd is committing to more of a developmental approach, it's a meaningful thing that a coaching goal is keeping players engaged. One of the biggest challenges, especially with 18-19 year olds, is keeping engagement and drive without playing time.

PT is the most powerful motivator a player has. When a guy like Nowell is buried and it becomes clear he isn't getting unburied, a coaching staff earns their money by keeping engagement.

I mean, if things shake out where we get a transfer wing and the Euro big...that 6'8 kid we just recruited isn't looking at much PT, and we need to keep his engagement if he has a future here with something other than playing time.

It isn't all on Lloyd by a long shot. I defended Miller with guys like Justin Simon, and it's just a big challenge these days. Maintaining a developmental approach is 10x harder than it was 20 years ago.

You were right. I was joking - well maybe half joking.

Spiff, totally agree with your point the coaching staff does bear some responsibility but on the flip side it's also a learning moment for the player. Sometimes life throws you a curve ball/bad brake and you can either whine and become "disinterested" or you can work your ass off and either prove the coaches wrong or at the very least put yourself in a position that if you decide to leave the coaching staff will provide a good recommendation.

Not saying that's happened with Nowell because I don't know but imo it works both ways.

Yeah, I mean, I'll lead with that I'm no insider and don't know if Nowell lacked intensity or focus at all. I don't by any means trust how he looked to fans as an accurate gauge. We don't see practices, which are easily the big determining factor...much more so than garbage time minutes in games.

And it does certainly help if players have the right mindset. The reality is a coaching staff can try to help kids get it, but some never do.

Ultimately, it's a percentages thing. The coaching staff tries to make a difference for the kids for whom you can make that difference. Certain kids get it right away and you never worry. Certain kids never get it. Converting on the kids who could go either way is how you win. Also, the vast majority of kids are probably in the category of could go either way, so identifiying the ones likely to take to good influences of program culture matters.

That's the test as I see it for Lloyd in terms of long term program health.

[azcat49]

Seems to me that Lloyd isn’t the type of coach to give up on a kid and force a move. He does though seem like a guy who would be very honest (which they all should be) about fit and a players future.

Somewhere late in the season Nowell had to know he either wasn’t a fit or maybe saw the recruiting handwriting and figured he wasn’t going to be the #1 or 2 wind option in the coming years. Maybe he looked at T Brown and saw his success going back to UDub? Just seeing his body language late makes it seem like he kind of knew he was leaving far before his announcement

[Spaceman Spiff]

Seems to me that Lloyd isn’t the type of coach to give up on a kid and force a move. He does though seem like a guy who would be very honest (which they all should be) about fit and a players future.

Somewhere late in the season Nowell had to know he either wasn’t a fit or maybe saw the recruiting handwriting and figured he wasn’t going to be the #1 or 2 wind option in the coming years. Maybe he looked at T Brown and saw his success going back to UDub? Just seeing his body language late makes it seem like he kind of knew he was leaving far before his announcement

It's sort of all semantics, IMO. What you say about Lloyd is a nicer way of saying he recruited over Nowell. I don't know if you want to call it forcing out, but when you put the writing on the wall, the effect is forcing someone out as much as if that's the intent.

Which isn't bad. I saw the point when Miller did it, I see the point in Lloyd doing it. The irony is the one time Miller didn't (PJC) might be the biggest personnel decision people castigate him for.

Programs have to keep recruiting and developing. That doesn't always include every recruit in the future. I hope Nowell finds a good landing spot and has a successful career.

[Merkin]

Seems to me that Lloyd isn’t the type of coach to give up on a kid and force a move.

Lute certainly did tell players not to come back. Every head coach has an end of season meeting with each player. I can imagine Lloyd saying that too. This game is bigger than an individual player's ego.

Like was noted above, these high school players were the star of their teams. It just must be crushing to be on the end of the bench for the first time in their lives, along with their posse telling them that it's not you, it's the coaching staff not recognizing your talent.

[TheCat]

Well we will soon see if we have NIL power. I didn't know NIL agents existed.

"NIL agent says Miami hoops star Isaiah Wong will enter transfer portal if NIL compensation isn't increased"

[dmjcat]

Well we will soon see if we have NIL power. I didn't know NIL agents existed.

"NIL agent says Miami hoops star Isaiah Wong will enter transfer portal if NIL compensation isn't increased"

The whole NIL thing is spiraling out of control. Imagine being a coach and now having to deal not only with teenagers but now their agents as well. No wonder Jay Wright got out while the getting was good. The agent representing Wong is also Nijel Packs agent.

[Chicat]

The whole NIL thing is spiraling out of control.

Oh noes! How dare someone ask for a small percentage of the vast amounts of money they generate for schools, conferences, the NCAA, and their corporate partners.

Relax Dorothy. No one is dropping a house on anyone to steal their ruby slippers.

[AzCatFan2]

It's the fairness, or better, the unfairness of a unregulated system that is the cause for concern. Professional leagues have tried to mitigate the risk between haves and have-nots by creating salary caps and contract rules. As of right now, there's nothing like this in the college system. It's the wild wild west, and those with money, the haves, are going to spend until those without, the have-nots, can no longer compete.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I want to just say what I think is true on NIL.

1. The sentiment the NCAA was screwing players by allowing rampant monetization while denying players income has been around 30 years at least. Look at how the Fab Five got monetized. Webber and Rose had their jerseys sold without getting a cut of massive profits.

2. The NCAA ignored that sentiment and kept a patently illegal system in place that disenfranchised players. It wasn't until the US Supreme Court declared their system illegal 9-0 that they were forced to change.

3. At that point, there was no option other than a wide open drop of NIL restrictions, leading to what we see today.

4. The current situation isn't odd. Guys like Wong are asking for a raise based on performance. Most of the fans who criticize him probably do the same on a regular basis. The shock and dismay about players doing things as simple as getting paid because they have rare, marketable talents and wanting more payment when they do well is baffling to me. This is America, and that's pretty much the way all of America functions. Maybe go to China or Russia for your forcible amateurism?

5. There will very much be a sorting out period. This is directly connected to the NCAA refusing to do anything for 30 years until it all blew up on them. But in the words of the good book, don't hate the players, hate the game. This is raw market forces that have been constrained wince forever all of a sudden sorting themselves out with minimal regulation. Much as Russia under Yeltsin had some wild west years...that's what happens when decades of repression end with doors being thrown open abruptly.

6. Colleges that don't adapt will lose. NIL is a thing programs need to work to accomodate and work with. If you don't, you'll repeat the NCAA's stupidity.

[azcat49]

My only thought is that I don’t like the fact that a kid is leveraging his college team like a pro. If he wants to be a pro then ho to the league or to a foreign team.

I am all for profit sharing for every athlete Plus what they can drive on their own privately through their NIL but this seems more “pro” monetarily driven behavior

[dmjcat]

[SabinoDrifter]

I want to just say what I think is true on NIL.

1. The sentiment the NCAA was screwing players by allowing rampant monetization while denying players income has been around 30 years at least. Look at how the Fab Five got monetized. Webber and Rose had their jerseys sold without getting a cut of massive profits.

2. The NCAA ignored that sentiment and kept a patently illegal system in place that disenfranchised players. It wasn't until the US Supreme Court declared their system illegal 9-0 that they were forced to change.

3. At that point, there was no option other than a wide open drop of NIL restrictions, leading to what we see today.

4. The current situation isn't odd. Guys like Wong are asking for a raise based on performance. Most of the fans who criticize him probably do the same on a regular basis. The shock and dismay about players doing things as simple as getting paid because they have rare, marketable talents and wanting more payment when they do well is baffling to me. This is America, and that's pretty much the way all of America functions. Maybe go to China or Russia for your forcible amateurism?

5. There will very much be a sorting out period. This is directly connected to the NCAA refusing to do anything for 30 years until it all blew up on them. But in the words of the good book, don't hate the players, hate the game. This is raw market forces that have been constrained wince forever all of a sudden sorting themselves out with minimal regulation. Much as Russia under Yeltsin had some wild west years...that's what happens when decades of repression end with doors being thrown open abruptly.

6. Colleges that don't adapt will lose. NIL is a thing programs need to work to accomodate and work with. If you don't, you'll repeat the NCAA's stupidity.

Agree with all points, especially the last one. Establish the ground rules for your athletic department and don't let the boosters run the show. There are plenty of examples of athletic departments that have let boosters dictate hiring decisions, monetary investments, etc. and it has blown up in spectacular fashion (USC, Auburn, Texas).

[Chicat]

My only thought is that I don’t like the fact that a kid is leveraging his college team like a pro. If he wants to be a pro then ho to the league or to a foreign team.

I am all for profit sharing for every athlete Plus what they can drive on their own privately through their NIL but this seems more “pro” monetarily driven behavior

Pro leagues have multi-billion dollar media deals and multi-million dollar advertising partnerships.

The NCAA has the same exact thing but up until very recently didn’t have to pay the players a goddamn thing.

And let’s not forget that schools have been leveraging the opportunities afforded to the athletes since college athletics became a thing with year-to-year scholarships, limited playing time, over-recruiting, and so on.

This is a forced correction and I’m here for it. Let the kids have a “pro” mindset. The NCAA and their schools have for decades.

[Spaceman Spiff]

It's the fairness, or better, the unfairness of a unregulated system that is the cause for concern. Professional leagues have tried to mitigate the risk between haves and have-nots by creating salary caps and contract rules. As of right now, there's nothing like this in the college system. It's the wild wild west, and those with money, the haves, are going to spend until those without, the have-nots, can no longer compete.

Actually, I'm not sure at all that's what's occurring.

The #1 football recruit picked an HBCU. Miami basketball got in on a transfer with NIL.

It's possibly more egalitarian in some ways. Arizona Football had a top 20 class. Dogs and cats, living together...

[azcat49]

I am no fan of the NCAA and hope they get shut down but while they return nothing to the players they also return very little of their profits to the schools.

Those pro franchises choose how they allocate their profits while college athletics must fund sports that are pure loss driven. When you have athletes holding a school hostage for more funds, it puts the school in a tough spot IMO.

Just go pro and make your money kid. The U shouldn’t be your employer.

[Chicat]

I am no fan of the NCAA and hope they get shut down but while they return nothing to the players they also return very little of their profits to the schools.

Those pro franchises choose how they allocate their profits while college athletics must fund sports that are pure loss driven. When you have athletes holding a school hostage for more funds, it puts the school in a tough spot IMO.

Just go pro and make your money kid. The U shouldn’t be your employer.

60% of the NCAA’s revenue goes back to the schools. But NIL funds don’t come from schools.

And the pro leagues have age limits that steer these kids to go the college route.

Go pro or be broke should not be the answer. It can’t be. Especially since there are tons of athletes who won’t make it in the pro leagues.

[TheCat]

The NCAA can help manage this by limiting the number of "free" transfers so guys can't shop around on an annual basis. That would make it more manageable for coaches, schools, and most of all fans that pay for the tickets. I'm all for guys getting a cut of the pie but if teams put out a new roster every year the pie part related to fans will dry up.

[IndianaZonaFan]

The NCAA can help manage this by limiting the number of "free" transfers so guys can't shop around on an annual basis. That would make it more manageable for coaches, schools, and most of all fans that pay for the tickets. I'm all for guys getting a cut of the pie but if teams put out a new roster every year the pie part related to fans will dry up.

Each player only gets one “free” transfer. So the limit you speak of is already in place.

There are possibilities to get additional free transfers if your coach is fired/leaves, but you would have to submit a request for that to be approved.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I am no fan of the NCAA and hope they get shut down but while they return nothing to the players they also return very little of their profits to the schools.

Those pro franchises choose how they allocate their profits while college athletics must fund sports that are pure loss driven. When you have athletes holding a school hostage for more funds, it puts the school in a tough spot IMO.

Just go pro and make your money kid. The U shouldn’t be your employer.

NIL money can't come from a school. Wong's message is essentially to Miami boosters because Miami itself cannot compensate him beyond the scholarship.

NIL could never be through the school without running into a massive Title IX issue. That's why the school has to assist players and offer opportunities, not just bankroll.

That's also why it has no effect on the mission of colleges as it relates to nonrevenue sports. NIL money is an extra benefit for anyone who can get it and does nothing to steal money from other athletics or the university.

It's one reason the prohibition was so ridiculous. This is the NCAA regulating non-university sources of money with the idea the NCAA serves member institutions and players...yet they need to regulate something that has no effect on institutions or players.

[AzCatFan2]

It's the fairness, or better, the unfairness of a unregulated system that is the cause for concern. Professional leagues have tried to mitigate the risk between haves and have-nots by creating salary caps and contract rules. As of right now, there's nothing like this in the college system. It's the wild wild west, and those with money, the haves, are going to spend until those without, the have-nots, can no longer compete.

Actually, I'm not sure at all that's what's occurring.

The #1 football recruit picked an HBCU. Miami basketball got in on a transfer with NIL.

It's possibly more egalitarian in some ways. Arizona Football had a top 20 class. Dogs and cats, living together...

If you look at the NCAA as a business and the NIL an emerging market, the NIL market is still young and in a growth phase. That means a lot of players still trying to navigate the market, and no clear winners or losers yet. The NIL is also mostly unregulated.

When a market is growing, you never really can predict what might happen, including some outliers. Alta Vista used to have a large advertising budget and make some splashes during the search engine growth phase. Where are they now? Got swallowed up by the big winner, which was Google, with Bing and Yahoo still having some name recognition. Plus some small niche players like Duck Duck Go. The market is now mature, with clear winners, major barriers to entry, and unlikely to have any major shake up in the near future, until possibly new technology changes things.

I hope we're not Alta Vista, and we have some advantages that may not seem to be obvious. USC and UCLA are in a giant market, but they also compete with pro sports franchises, plus each other. Being a "C7 Sports" school in a major city might make NIl deals a struggle. In comparison, UA is the only game in town. UA Men's Basketball player are literally and figuratively the largest sports figures in town.

We also have some very rich alumni who are invested in athletics. Would be nice to have a T-Boone Pickens or Phil Knight, but with the NIL, if we can get a few guys together like Moreno, Baffert, Johnson, plus some well known athletes to chip in, we can create a decent NIL pool. Not to mention, $50k in Tucson goes a lot farther than $50k in Los Angeles.

The future is yet to be written, of course, and who knows how the NIL will change college athletics. I personally can't see a future where there aren't some sort of future regulations to try and even the playing field between the haves and have-nots. But until then, if we see more deals like this one at Alabama (https://www.tuscaloosanews.com/story/sp ... 053577001/), we'll see an even greater divide between haves and have-nots in college sports. We saw this in pro sports, and again, that's why they enacted caps. Still doesn't stop the Lakers from winning more championships than the Jazz, but it least it gives Utah a fighting chance. With no salary cap, like in baseball, you get divides like the Dodgers and the Orioles.

[Beachcat97]

If you look at the NCAA as a business and the NIL an emerging market, the NIL market is still young and in a growth phase. That means a lot of players still trying to navigate the market, and no clear winners or losers yet. The NIL is also mostly unregulated.

When a market is growing, you never really can predict what might happen, including some outliers. Alta Vista used to have a large advertising budget and make some splashes during the search engine growth phase. Where are they now? Got swallowed up by the big winner, which was Google, with Bing and Yahoo still having some name recognition. Plus some small niche players like Duck Duck Go. The market is now mature, with clear winners, major barriers to entry, and unlikely to have any major shake up in the near future, until possibly new technology changes things.

Excellent post, AZCat.

The ramifications of the NIL are only just beginning to be understood. This is the first off-season, for instance, that the transfer market has been so fully impacted by the NIL. We only got a small glimpse last year. Now we have guys halfway through their college careers realizing that programs with deep pockets may be able to offer more than the school they initially chose. I never thought we'd see a transfer "market" and recruiting landscape similar to what happens with high school players, and that's where we are.

Like I said in other threads, I do think Arizona will come out of this just fine, but it may take a few years. Tommy, Heeke and other interested parties need to land on a coherent strategy, with transfers and preps, and I think it's silly to assume we already have that strategy figured out. Everyone is learning on the fly.

[azcat49]

I am aware the money doesn’t come directly through the university but it does come from those boosters who used to donate generously to the university. Those funds would go into the athletic de page real fund or maybe go directly to a project. In most cases it helped several programs.

My thoughts are that a renegotiation could spur a booster to university sports and lower contributions in a general sense. I guess the best term as was says above us unregulated. It’s the NCAA’s fault for pushing this thing all the way to the Supreme Court. It is funny to me though how at one point I am all happy for Wong getting a great offer and getting paid to my new emotion that his desire to renegotiate is not a good thing for college sports as a whole. Times are changing and quickly

[Spaceman Spiff]

I am aware the money doesn’t come directly through the university but it does come from those boosters who used to donate generously to the university. Those funds would go into the athletic de page real fund or maybe go directly to a project. In most cases it helped several programs.

My thoughts are that a renegotiation could spur a booster to university sports and lower contributions in a general sense. I guess the best term as was says above us unregulated. It’s the NCAA’s fault for pushing this thing all the way to the Supreme Court. It is funny to me though how at one point I am all happy for Wong getting a great offer and getting paid to my new emotion that his desire to renegotiate is not a good thing for college sports as a whole. Times are changing and quickly

I agree and disagree on that. Fully agree some money may have come from boosters that otherwise might have been earmarked for projects. It's one of the hypocrisies in college sports I've ranted about. Instead of money being given to recruits, we have this weird system where it has to be shunted into palatial facilities like Bama or Oregon's football facilities, which are explicitly designed to entice recruits.

Which is why I don't buy the haves and have nots so much. The haves have been leveraging their money into massive recruting advantages through facilities, private transport for coaches, etc. and with great success. Alabama wins the recruiting battle every year in part due to loaded facilities.

Arizona dropped tens of millions on Lowell-Stevens within the last decade and we're bottom half of the Pac 12 in football facilities. I frankly like the option of just giving players $ instead of the mega arms race in facilities.

[azcat49]

Yes I like the players getting the dough, I just don’t like the threat he made.

This will never be the case but I sure wish it was a symbiotic relationship between the athletes and the balance sheet of the department. Profit sharing is a great thing. These kids can be great ambassadors and get the fans out. Sell their jerseys and be proactive in the charitable arm of the community (and receive appearance fee’s).

This rule can be very good for all parties if thought out a little.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Yes I like the players getting the dough, I just don’t like the threat he made.

This will never be the case but I sure wish it was a symbiotic relationship between the athletes and the balance sheet of the department. Profit sharing is a great thing. These kids can be great ambassadors and get the fans out. Sell their jerseys and be proactive in the charitable arm of the community (and receive appearance fee’s).

This rule can be very good for all parties of thought out a little.

I upvoted you in hopes you onow any disagreements I've voiced aren't disrespect. I get a lot of what you're saying, and it's not that wrong.

I'd echo what YDF brought up, this is a period where there are all of a sudden no rules thanks to the NCAA after many years of draconian rules.

There will be a settling point and there will be people like Wong who push the envelope. I'm not sure it could be otherwise without rewinding 30 years for a gradual phase in.

I do fully believe the balance you want is how good, smart programs will differentiate themselves. The good programs will serve their players interests without making them oppose the program's interests. The goal should be, when you (the player) win, we (the program) win.

[Jefe]

Australian?

[azgreg]

[AzCatFan2]

Facilities are benefits. All other things being equal, benefits can sway a decision. NIL is salary. All the best benefits in the world have a tough time competing with double or triple the salary.

Benefits like facilities have a ceiling too. Just how much better are Oregon's facilities? How much more can they improve? Ours may not be quite as good, but Lowell-Stevens is good enough.

NIL money, as of today, has no cap. Again, it's the wild west.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Just like ASU to get the letters backwards.

[Irish27]

[YoDeFoe]

lol no thank you

[Spaceman Spiff]

lol no thank you

He doesn't seem to fit what Lloyd wants to do at all and I struggle to see how he fits on the roster even unless Dalen leaves.

[ChooChooCat]

Yeah we're not pursuing Allen.

[Beachcat97]

Yeah we're not pursuing Allen.

Choo, are there any names you can share that we *are* pursuing at the moment? That transfer portal is awfully crowded.

[84Cat]

Yeah we're not pursuing Allen.

Choo, are there any names you can share that we *are* pursuing at the moment? That transfer portal is awfully crowded.

And when can we expect the Euro big to announce?

[UAEebs86]

[Spaceman Spiff]

Halfway there. If the new ones are the 97 template, it's a full W.

[97cats]

97cats

[Irish27]

[ChooChooCat]

Yeah we're not pursuing Allen.

Choo, are there any names you can share that we *are* pursuing at the moment? That transfer portal is awfully crowded.

This staff keeps things real close to the vest, so I got nothing for you other than you already know. Honestly the Big Euro is the only bad secret they’ve kept. I do have a very good idea of their guard transfer target, but I’m keeping that to myself…for now lol.

[YoDeFoe]

Give me the Colorado decommit and give him to me now

https://t.co/6LRjiwYQa8

[Irish27]

Looking forward to watching Henri play.

[Beachcat97]

Looking forward to watching Henri play.

Do we know where things stand with him? Who else is recruiting him?

[Irish27]

He will be committing to the UofA.

[Jefe]

Whaaaaat. 2 starters from Estonia?

[ChooChooCat]

Lol worst kept secret in forever.

[gronk4heisman]

Not counting my chickens until they hatch. This is Arizona. If it was a sure thing why would he not have committed already.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Not counting my chickens until they hatch. This is Arizona. If it was a sure thing why would he not have committed already.

In general I agree that it is only done when it's done, but I will say this might be the strongest buzz I've ever seen on a recruit. Usually, you get the idea someone's a lock in the days before a commit, it's been months of that never wavering with this kid.