Let's Talk '22

[pc in NM]

Can't remember the last time our roster was so riddled with question marks this late in the offseason!

Ummm... last year?

Huh?? We returned Mathurin, Kriisa, Koloko, Tubelis, Terry and eventually added Larsson, Kier and Ballo. That strikes me as a much better situation than we're currently in.

There was a long time after we hired Tommy Boy that many thought all or most of those guys were going to transfer

This. When it became clear we returned a group of 5 starters, we were fine, but there was a time it wasn't a given. Kerr was in the portal, Mathurin was looking at entering the draft...there was a lot up in the air.

I will say, I always thought the potential of the core group was there. In a way, that's why 20-21 was sort of a frustrating year. The potential was there to tease us, but we were just barely short in 4 or 5 games.

I don't recall anyone here predicting a top nationally competitive team before the first game of the season - did I miss someone??

CTL exceeded aany and all expectations - period!!!

And, I believe that CSM would not have had nearly the same season (less Ballo, of course)!! CTL's offensive schemes were the core of that teams success....

[Beachcat97]

Ummm... last year?

Huh?? We returned Mathurin, Kriisa, Koloko, Tubelis, Terry and eventually added Larsson, Kier and Ballo. That strikes me as a much better situation than we're currently in.

There was a long time after we hired Tommy Boy that many thought all or most of those guys were going to transfer

This. When it became clear we returned a group of 5 starters, we were fine, but there was a time it wasn't a given. Kerr was in the portal, Mathurin was looking at entering the draft...there was a lot up in the air.

I will say, I always thought the potential of the core group was there. In a way, that's why 20-21 was sort of a frustrating year. The potential was there to tease us, but we were just barely short in 4 or 5 games.

I don't recall anyone here predicting a top nationally competitive team before the first game of the season - did I miss someone??

CTL exceeded aany and all expectations - period!!!

And, I believe that CSM would not have had nearly the same season (less Ballo, of course)!! CTL's offensive schemes were the core of that teams success....

Just wanna point out that many were saying the opposite: that the core of our roster last season (BM, KK, AT, DT, CK), built by Sean Miller, was underrated heading into the season. So while I would agree that CTL's style probably elevated the team's ceiling last year, there were plenty of folks with high expectations for the team in 2021-22, given what we had coming back. Kriisa and Terry were highly regarded recruits, even if they didn't shine as freshmen.

Anyway, however we want to remember last summer, our roster situation does not look as good today as it did a year ago.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Ummm... last year?

Huh?? We returned Mathurin, Kriisa, Koloko, Tubelis, Terry and eventually added Larsson, Kier and Ballo. That strikes me as a much better situation than we're currently in.

There was a long time after we hired Tommy Boy that many thought all or most of those guys were going to transfer

This. When it became clear we returned a group of 5 starters, we were fine, but there was a time it wasn't a given. Kerr was in the portal, Mathurin was looking at entering the draft...there was a lot up in the air.

I will say, I always thought the potential of the core group was there. In a way, that's why 20-21 was sort of a frustrating year. The potential was there to tease us, but we were just barely short in 4 or 5 games.

I don't recall anyone here predicting a top nationally competitive team before the first game of the season - did I miss someone??

CTL exceeded aany and all expectations - period!!!

And, I believe that CSM would not have had nearly the same season (less Ballo, of course)!! CTL's offensive schemes were the core of that teams success....

I always thought there was a lot of talent. How well it fit, progressed and how well a first time HC did were all unknowns.

I always hate comparing Miller and Lloyd because it makes me feel like I'm saying things about Lloyd that he in no way deserves. He did a good job for a first year coach and it really should be left there.

If we have to compare, 20-21, we had the #15 offense in Kenpom AdjO. In 21-22, that bumped up to #7. That's simultaneously a credit to Lloyd and also an argument that it isn't some massive, unanticipated leap. Frankly, the bigger change was defensive metrics.

Here's the part I hate saying and feel is unfair. If SM is our coach, I doubt we get outworked and outtoughed two games in a row in the NCAA's. I can't think of too many times that we got outtoughed twice in a row under Miller.

I think that's unfair to Lloyd because he's a first year HC. You expect that there will be some growth needed. IMO, Lloyd's potential growth is in part how to prepare a team to meet competitiveness and aggression. It's ok he is not a finished product.

[Postmaster]

I expected the team to get to s16 before CSM left. So i had the same expectation for his replacement.
I expected playing in championship game in P12 tournament and a top 3 finish in regular.
CTL beat two of those and came out even on the third.

The more I think about the NCAA tournament the more I’m worried that the P12 sucks and that CTL’s style is built for regular season play.
But this is probably an overreaction to 2 games. Still disappointed that CTL wasn’t able to prepare for Houston after the TCU game.

[YoDeFoe]

Sampson out coached him, that’s for sure. But Lloyd did the best he could putting together a freestyled “cook what’s in the cupboard” version of his offense in his first year. Don’t think we could expect the boys to have the punch to the counter punch down yet.

A confluence of headwinds though - injuries to Zu and Kerr, team with no tournament experience, facing a HOF head coach with an underseeded veteran team.

Most notably is the disparity in reffing between PAC-12 games and the tournament. I don’t know how that’s fixed moving forward. The PAC-12 shares a referee pool with the Western Officiating Consortium - which covers the Big West, Big Sky, Mountain West, Pac-12 and WCC.

A cooperation with the Big XII would be ideal, given its higher level and more athletic play. But I don’t see the existing bureaucracy folding anytime soon. Maybe the coming version of the Big XII, newly kneecapped by its departed members to the SEC, would join the fold.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I expected the team to get to s16 before CSM left. So i had the same expectation for his replacement.
I expected playing in championship game in P12 tournament and a top 3 finish in regular.
CTL beat two of those and came out even on the third.

The more I think about the NCAA tournament the more I’m worried that the P12 sucks and that CTL’s style is built for regular season play.
But this is probably an overreaction to 2 games. Still disappointed that CTL wasn’t able to prepare for Houston after the TCU game.

I did not go back to review my pre-SM firing posts, but I strongly remember saying I agreed with top 15 projections for us and I thought we had upside within that and the ability to be higher with good roster management. I think I explicitly said a few times Robbins fired Miller when he did because he realized if he gave him one more year, Miller would have produced a year that would be too good to lead to a firing.

I hate comparing because Lloyd did a lot of good things. My prediction for Miller was based on the idea Miller is really good. Lloyd handled the roster well and oversaw a lot of development, notably Benn and Koloko realizing their upside. Lloyd paid off the situation he inherited in a way that's a compliment to any coach, let alone a first timer.

Houston is frustrating for me because it cane on the heels of TCU outplaying and outcompeting us. They were flatly better and more competitive and deserved that win. Instead of being a wakeup call, we turned around and did it again vs Houston. Instead of TCU being a call to raise the level, we just played flat and they punked us again.

That's just a bottom line, it can't be like that. Benn, Terry and Koloko leaving shows you that experience in the tourney can't be an excuse because a lot of players are going to turn over.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Sampson out coached him, that’s for sure. But Lloyd did the best he could putting together a freestyled “cook what’s in the cupboard” version of his offense in his first year. Don’t think we could expect the boys to have the punch to the counter punch down yet.

A confluence of headwinds though - injuries to Zu and Kerr, team with no tournament experience, facing a HOF head coach with an underseeded veteran team.

Most notably is the disparity in reffing between PAC-12 games and the tournament. I don’t know how that’s fixed moving forward. The PAC-12 shares a referee pool with the Western Officiating Consortium - which covers the Big West, Big Sky, Mountain West, Pac-12 and WCC.

A cooperation with the Big XII would be ideal, given its higher level and more athletic play. But I don’t see the existing bureaucracy folding anytime soon. Maybe the coming version of the Big XII, newly kneecapped by its departed members to the SEC, would join the fold.

Ehh, I never fault Lloyd's X's and O's. He was consistently good there.

But competing...you can always play hard and aggressive. I mean, I get all the remaining factors, but that one is so basic and elemental. Culturally, I also believe it's a prerequisite to high level success. You see varying talent, experience, team philosophy, but you never see teams win if they're getting outcompeted.

[RawleArenas]

Sampson out coached him, that’s for sure. But Lloyd did the best he could putting together a freestyled “cook what’s in the cupboard” version of his offense in his first year. Don’t think we could expect the boys to have the punch to the counter punch down yet.

A confluence of headwinds though - injuries to Zu and Kerr, team with no tournament experience, facing a HOF head coach with an underseeded veteran team.

Most notably is the disparity in reffing between PAC-12 games and the tournament. I don’t know how that’s fixed moving forward. The PAC-12 shares a referee pool with the Western Officiating Consortium - which covers the Big West, Big Sky, Mountain West, Pac-12 and WCC.

A cooperation with the Big XII would be ideal, given its higher level and more athletic play. But I don’t see the existing bureaucracy folding anytime soon. Maybe the coming version of the Big XII, newly kneecapped by its departed members to the SEC, would join the fold.

I think about that tourney game a lot and I always come to the same conclusion. If Aiken was available and grabs 6 rebounds and hits a few shots and plays plus defense, that game is totally different. A healthy Kriisa wouldn't hurt either. You could make the argument that the Gonzaga style is made for the regular season, the only times they really surpassed expectations is when they had Goss and Suggs. Suggs basically kept that championship game from getting real ugly and won the game for them against UCLA with the buzzer beater. That's what NBA talent does for you.

Same with Goss. Grizzled, five star guard pushes them over the top and they get to the FF and championship game. I won't go as far as to say that you need an NBA guy, but you need a really strong leader to help a good team take the next step. Those two-three weeks are brutal, and if you don't have strong guard play you're gonna be in trouble. It's the reason why I liked Akinjo. You give me a choice between Kriisa, PJC or Nico for the tourney and I will take Akinjo every single time. You have to ask yourself the question if you were in a street fight and you had to choose between the three, which one would give you the best chance for winning? I think the answer speaks for itself.

Lastly, I gonna give a little criticism to Lloyd. While he did a great job his first year, I wouldn't say that you need to play a team like Houston in the preseason to prepare for the tourney. I always go back to the UNLV/Duke games. They get blown out by UNLV and humiliated and the next year they adapt and play their own version of physical, UNLV ball (having Grant Hill didn't hurt either). If I'm Lloyd I'm pulling a Coach K and watching that Houston game every day to remind myself to never let that happen again. If we get some key commitments this year, our team may not be ideal, but we'd have the ingredients to make a decent run.

[RondaeShimmy]

Sampson out coached him, that’s for sure. But Lloyd did the best he could putting together a freestyled “cook what’s in the cupboard” version of his offense in his first year. Don’t think we could expect the boys to have the punch to the counter punch down yet.

A confluence of headwinds though - injuries to Zu and Kerr, team with no tournament experience, facing a HOF head coach with an underseeded veteran team.

Most notably is the disparity in reffing between PAC-12 games and the tournament. I don’t know how that’s fixed moving forward. The PAC-12 shares a referee pool with the Western Officiating Consortium - which covers the Big West, Big Sky, Mountain West, Pac-12 and WCC.

A cooperation with the Big XII would be ideal, given its higher level and more athletic play. But I don’t see the existing bureaucracy folding anytime soon. Maybe the coming version of the Big XII, newly kneecapped by its departed members to the SEC, would join the fold.

Ehh, I never fault Lloyd's X's and O's. He was consistently good there.

But competing...you can always play hard and aggressive. I mean, I get all the remaining factors, but that one is so basic and elemental. Culturally, I also believe it's a prerequisite to high level success. You see varying talent, experience, team philosophy, but you never see teams win if they're getting outcompeted.

Like the buffalo game and the whole Atlantis trip

[Spaceman Spiff]

Sampson out coached him, that’s for sure. But Lloyd did the best he could putting together a freestyled “cook what’s in the cupboard” version of his offense in his first year. Don’t think we could expect the boys to have the punch to the counter punch down yet.

A confluence of headwinds though - injuries to Zu and Kerr, team with no tournament experience, facing a HOF head coach with an underseeded veteran team.

Most notably is the disparity in reffing between PAC-12 games and the tournament. I don’t know how that’s fixed moving forward. The PAC-12 shares a referee pool with the Western Officiating Consortium - which covers the Big West, Big Sky, Mountain West, Pac-12 and WCC.

A cooperation with the Big XII would be ideal, given its higher level and more athletic play. But I don’t see the existing bureaucracy folding anytime soon. Maybe the coming version of the Big XII, newly kneecapped by its departed members to the SEC, would join the fold.

Ehh, I never fault Lloyd's X's and O's. He was consistently good there.

But competing...you can always play hard and aggressive. I mean, I get all the remaining factors, but that one is so basic and elemental. Culturally, I also believe it's a prerequisite to high level success. You see varying talent, experience, team philosophy, but you never see teams win if they're getting outcompeted.

Like the buffalo game and the whole Atlantis trip

I'd agree with that. The one team in Miller's tenure I was dissatisfied with was 2018. I like Miller, but that was clearly a team that had a tendency to draw back from a challenge and not embrace it.

That's why I say I don't exactly revel in pointing towards the things I didn't like with Lloyd's 2021-22. Even a guy like Miller, who I obviously liked, isn't immune to issues. Being a coach is hard and it's responding, improving and overcoming too.

Dang, I think I blocked Atlantis from my memory. I think I posted the other day Miller's teams never got outcompeted multiple games in a row. I'd thought of Buffalo but blanked on Atlantis.

[mofo]

Lastly, I gonna give a little criticism to Lloyd. While he did a great job his first year, I wouldn't say that you need to play a team like Houston in the preseason to prepare for the tourney. I always go back to the UNLV/Duke games. They get blown out by UNLV and humiliated and the next year they adapt and play their own version of physical, UNLV ball (having Grant Hill didn't hurt either). If I'm Lloyd I'm pulling a Coach K and watching that Houston game every day to remind myself to never let that happen again. If we get some key commitments this year, our team may not be ideal, but we'd have the ingredients to make a decent run.

The problem would be fouling out our roster every game during the conference season.

[Beachcat97]

Still disappointed that CTL wasn’t able to prepare for Houston after the TCU game.

His first time coaching in the NCAA tournament. It's hard to be too upset. We absolutely exceeded expectations this past season. Lloyd was so good that he's already earned a pay raise and contract extension. Say what you want about our administration, but they made a great hire in Lloyd.

I won't be ready to assess Lloyd's ability to win in the tourney for a few more years. Need to see how he manages roster turnover, injuries, match-ups.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Still disappointed that CTL wasn’t able to prepare for Houston after the TCU game.

His first time coaching in the NCAA tournament. It's hard to be too upset. We absolutely exceeded expectations this past season. Lloyd was so good that he's already earned a pay raise and contract extension. Say what you want about our administration, but they made a great hire in Lloyd.

I won't be ready to assess Lloyd's ability to win in the tourney for a few more years. Need to see how he manages roster turnover, injuries, match-ups.

You've pinged a massive issue for me. No coach should get extended after one year. No coach. Never.

Nothing against Lloyd, but extension after one year is a massive hard line thing for me. It's such a mistake I almost can't believe he can be decent with that level of curse on his shoulders.

He exceeded expectations during the season and conference tourney. The NCAA tourney was a disappointment. I can't call it much of a success because I think Arizona is beyond seeing the regular season as a benchmark for success.

[Postmaster]

Atlantis wasn’t on TV so it didn’t happen.
Just like the baseball game the other day

[Spaceman Spiff]

Atlantis wasn’t on TV so it didn’t happen.
Just like the baseball game the other day

So Atlantis was lost? Fitting.

[RawleArenas]

Lastly, I gonna give a little criticism to Lloyd. While he did a great job his first year, I wouldn't say that you need to play a team like Houston in the preseason to prepare for the tourney. I always go back to the UNLV/Duke games. They get blown out by UNLV and humiliated and the next year they adapt and play their own version of physical, UNLV ball (having Grant Hill didn't hurt either). If I'm Lloyd I'm pulling a Coach K and watching that Houston game every day to remind myself to never let that happen again. If we get some key commitments this year, our team may not be ideal, but we'd have the ingredients to make a decent run.

The problem would be fouling out our roster every game during the conference season.

I'm not a fan of extending after the first year either. The tourney was a big disappointment to me, I knew that Houston would man up in the sweet 16. Say what you will, but Hubert Davis didn't have any excuses and they should have beat KU to win the title in his first year, so it can be done. And UNC's roster was not better than ours. I guarantee you a majority of Wildcat fans would trade the Pac title and championship to switch places with UNC.

Extending someone after the first year has too many shades of Mike Hopkins. Even as great as our year was, its too small sample size.

[RondaeShimmy]

[Spaceman Spiff]

Lastly, I gonna give a little criticism to Lloyd. While he did a great job his first year, I wouldn't say that you need to play a team like Houston in the preseason to prepare for the tourney. I always go back to the UNLV/Duke games. They get blown out by UNLV and humiliated and the next year they adapt and play their own version of physical, UNLV ball (having Grant Hill didn't hurt either). If I'm Lloyd I'm pulling a Coach K and watching that Houston game every day to remind myself to never let that happen again. If we get some key commitments this year, our team may not be ideal, but we'd have the ingredients to make a decent run.

The problem would be fouling out our roster every game during the conference season.

I'm big on not extending after the first year either. The tourney was a big disappointment to me, I knew that Houston would man up in the sweet 16. Say what you will, but Hubert Davis didn't have any excuses and they should have beat KU to win the title in his first year, so it can be done. And UNC's rosters was not better than ours. I bet you a majority of Wildcat fans would trade the Pac title and championship to switch places with UNC.

Extending someone after the first year has too many shades of Mike Hopkins. As great as our year was, too small sample size.

Good point on UNC. I agree fully they're an example that there aren't resume prerequisites to tourney success.

Davis was first year, the lion's share of their roster had zero tourney experience beyond a first round blasting in 2021 and I would argue we had significantly more NBA level talent. I'm not sure they had a single NBA player on their roster.

[dmjcat]

"On3 just released a report stating that Ramey is now expected to commit to play for the Arizona Wildcats in the coming days.

Although this doesn’t mean that the Mountaineers are completely out of the running for him, On3 stated that they are confident in the intel that they have received"

[Spaceman Spiff]

"On3 just released a report stating that Ramey is now expected to commit to play for the Arizona Wildcats in the coming days.

Although this doesn’t mean that the Mountaineers are completely out of the running for him, On3 stated that they are confident in the intel that they have received"

Best case scenario at this point. Ramey can come in and give you 30 mpg on a very good team. He can play in any permutation of a lineup, so it doesn't matter if there are additional adds or how we structure things around him.

[Beachcat97]

Do we know if Ramey has any kind of tie to AZ or AZ players/coaches? Just trying to think through every angle that could play into this.

[84Cat]

"On3 just released a report stating that Ramey is now expected to commit to play for the Arizona Wildcats in the coming days.

Although this doesn’t mean that the Mountaineers are completely out of the running for him, On3 stated that they are confident in the intel that they have received"

I assume this is the report.

[Postmaster]

Lastly, I gonna give a little criticism to Lloyd. While he did a great job his first year, I wouldn't say that you need to play a team like Houston in the preseason to prepare for the tourney. I always go back to the UNLV/Duke games. They get blown out by UNLV and humiliated and the next year they adapt and play their own version of physical, UNLV ball (having Grant Hill didn't hurt either). If I'm Lloyd I'm pulling a Coach K and watching that Houston game every day to remind myself to never let that happen again. If we get some key commitments this year, our team may not be ideal, but we'd have the ingredients to make a decent run.

The problem would be fouling out our roster every game during the conference season.

I'm not a fan of extending after the first year either. The tourney was a big disappointment to me, I knew that Houston would man up in the sweet 16. Say what you will, but Hubert Davis didn't have any excuses and they should have beat KU to win the title in his first year, so it can be done. And UNC's roster was not better than ours. I guarantee you a majority of Wildcat fans would trade the Pac title and championship to switch places with UNC.

Extending someone after the first year has too many shades of Mike Hopkins. Even as great as our year was, its too small sample size.

No reason to extend him since this is the only job he would have taken.

[RondaeShimmy]

"On3 just released a report stating that Ramey is now expected to commit to play for the Arizona Wildcats in the coming days.

Although this doesn’t mean that the Mountaineers are completely out of the running for him, On3 stated that they are confident in the intel that they have received"

I assume this is the report.

Excellent

[ChooChooCat]

Lastly, I gonna give a little criticism to Lloyd. While he did a great job his first year, I wouldn't say that you need to play a team like Houston in the preseason to prepare for the tourney. I always go back to the UNLV/Duke games. They get blown out by UNLV and humiliated and the next year they adapt and play their own version of physical, UNLV ball (having Grant Hill didn't hurt either). If I'm Lloyd I'm pulling a Coach K and watching that Houston game every day to remind myself to never let that happen again. If we get some key commitments this year, our team may not be ideal, but we'd have the ingredients to make a decent run.

The problem would be fouling out our roster every game during the conference season.

I'm not a fan of extending after the first year either. The tourney was a big disappointment to me, I knew that Houston would man up in the sweet 16. Say what you will, but Hubert Davis didn't have any excuses and they should have beat KU to win the title in his first year, so it can be done. And UNC's roster was not better than ours. I guarantee you a majority of Wildcat fans would trade the Pac title and championship to switch places with UNC.

Extending someone after the first year has too many shades of Mike Hopkins. Even as great as our year was, its too small sample size.

Lol this is a stupid post. They extended him one year, it's not as if they gave him a 10 year contract, they just renewed the 5 year deal. When you have a coach who won National Coach of the Year, only lost 4 total games, won the Pac-12 conference regular season and tournament, and made the second weekend of the tourney, you extend him and give him a raise. If you don't then he will remember that and another program that's willing to pay him will do so. You have to maintain a positive relationship with your coaches and reward them when they deserve it. I've got a lot of opinions on Dave Heeke good and bad, but this is definitely a good smart thing he did.

The Hubert comparison is stupid as well btw. UNC's roster got hot at the right time, while our roster's second best scorer went through the worst slump of his career and on top of it our starting point guard's foot was literally a centimeter away from falling off. I award you no points for this effort and may god have mercy on your soul.

[ChooChooCat]

Lastly, I gonna give a little criticism to Lloyd. While he did a great job his first year, I wouldn't say that you need to play a team like Houston in the preseason to prepare for the tourney. I always go back to the UNLV/Duke games. They get blown out by UNLV and humiliated and the next year they adapt and play their own version of physical, UNLV ball (having Grant Hill didn't hurt either). If I'm Lloyd I'm pulling a Coach K and watching that Houston game every day to remind myself to never let that happen again. If we get some key commitments this year, our team may not be ideal, but we'd have the ingredients to make a decent run.

The problem would be fouling out our roster every game during the conference season.

I'm not a fan of extending after the first year either. The tourney was a big disappointment to me, I knew that Houston would man up in the sweet 16. Say what you will, but Hubert Davis didn't have any excuses and they should have beat KU to win the title in his first year, so it can be done. And UNC's roster was not better than ours. I guarantee you a majority of Wildcat fans would trade the Pac title and championship to switch places with UNC.

Extending someone after the first year has too many shades of Mike Hopkins. Even as great as our year was, its too small sample size.

No reason to extend him since this is the only job he would have taken.

Lol no.

[Alieberman]

It is funny how 1 game changed some people's entire perception of Tommy

[ChooChooCat]

It is funny how 1 game changed some people's entire perception of Tommy

Absolutely asinine. Fucking spoiled brats.

[RawleArenas]

Choo, for the record I did not originate this post. I just merely cosigned with other posters, I'm not sure where your energy is coming from. You might want to direct it at them. I do believe that it would have been better to wait to extend him and then give him a hefty raise, You can have a positive relationship with someone without rushing to extend them, it's not mutually exclusive.

Top to bottom, we had about 5-6 pros on our roster to UNC's (zero?). UNC played very well, but we were not competitive enough against Houston. UNC was far more consistently competitive than we were in the tournatment, despite having lesser high end talent. I'm not the only one saying this on the board, and it's certainly not a new observation.

I think you're wrong about this, although I do like your takes from time to time. Just like I thought you were clearly wrong when you said that Aquaman wasn't a superhero.

[Merkin]

It is funny how 1 game changed some people's entire perception of Tommy

Even Tommy realized his mistakes, and has plans to correct them. Not like he blamed anyone but himself.

[Chicat]

Back to Tommy Boy!

[ChooChooCat]

Choo, for the record I did not originate this post. I just merely cosigned with other posters, I'm not sure where your energy is coming from. You might want to direct it at them. I do believe that it would have been better to wait to extend him and then give him a hefty raise, You can have a positive relationship with someone without rushing to extend them, it's not mutually exclusive.

Top to bottom, we had about 5-6 pros on our roster to UNC's (zero?). UNC played very well, but we were not competitive enough against Houston. UNC was far more consistently competitive than we were in the tournatment, despite having lesser high end talent. I'm not the only one saying this on the board, and it's certainly not a new observation.

I think you're wrong about this, although I do like your takes from time to time. Just like I thought you were clearly wrong when you said that Aquaman wasn't a superhero.

Well then you and your cosigned posters were wrong. One bad game does not a "Coach of the year with a ton of a ccomplishments does not deserve an extension" make.

Also since when has the amount of pros you have on your roster matter in regards to NCAA tourney success? When has the most talented team won the NCAA tourney last? The Anthony Davis UK team? Houston matched up well against us and our one guy who could truly factor into success for us in that game, Tubelis, was a no show. It happens. It's basketball. One game does not dictate a season. Stop it.

I know you're wrong about this, although I do like your takes from time to time. I will go to my grave saying Aquaman is nothing more than a handsome blonde dude who could talk to fish dammit! You will never convince me otherwise.

[RawleArenas]

Choo, for the record I did not originate this post. I just merely cosigned with other posters, I'm not sure where your energy is coming from. You might want to direct it at them. I do believe that it would have been better to wait to extend him and then give him a hefty raise, You can have a positive relationship with someone without rushing to extend them, it's not mutually exclusive.

Top to bottom, we had about 5-6 pros on our roster to UNC's (zero?). UNC played very well, but we were not competitive enough against Houston. UNC was far more consistently competitive than we were in the tournatment, despite having lesser high end talent. I'm not the only one saying this on the board, and it's certainly not a new observation.

I think you're wrong about this, although I do like your takes from time to time. Just like I thought you were clearly wrong when you said that Aquaman wasn't a superhero.

Well then you and your cosigned posters were wrong. One bad game does not a "Coach of the year with a ton of a ccomplishments does not deserve an extension" make.

Also since when has the amount of pros you have on your roster matter in regards to NCAA tourney success? When has the most talented team won the NCAA tourney last? The Anthony Davis UK team? Houston matched up well against us and our one guy who could truly factor into success for us in that game, Tubelis, was a no show. It happens. It's basketball. One game does not dictate a season. Stop it.

I know you're wrong about this, although I do like your takes from time to time. I will go to my grave saying Aquaman is nothing more than a handsome blonde dude who could talk to fish dammit! You will never convince me otherwise.

This is a huge bone of contention for me. Aquaman does not get his due, although he's proven himself time and time again. People get real testy with him because he doesn't have flashy powers, but he right up there with all the major guys.

Choo (my bad), I know you were being a little tongue in cheek. My larger point is cherry picking posts is dangerous. I've said many times how thoroughly impressed I was with Tommy's performance this year. Yes, Tubelis was a no show and Kriisa was hurt. That really dinged us. But I'm much more concerned about our competitiveness in big games (i.e. tourney). Gonzaga has historically struggled (like we did) against physical teams. I don't want to see a repeat of this in the future with our teams.

I think Tommy has the chops to figure it out. But we'll see.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Choo, for the record I did not originate this post. I just merely cosigned with other posters, I'm not sure where your energy is coming from. You might want to direct it at them. I do believe that it would have been better to wait to extend him and then give him a hefty raise, You can have a positive relationship with someone without rushing to extend them, it's not mutually exclusive.

Top to bottom, we had about 5-6 pros on our roster to UNC's (zero?). UNC played very well, but we were not competitive enough against Houston. UNC was far more consistently competitive than we were in the tournatment, despite having lesser high end talent. I'm not the only one saying this on the board, and it's certainly not a new observation.

I think you're wrong about this, although I do like your takes from time to time. Just like I thought you were clearly wrong when you said that Aquaman wasn't a superhero.

Well then you and your cosigned posters were wrong. One bad game does not a "Coach of the year with a ton of a ccomplishments does not deserve an extension" make.

Also since when has the amount of pros you have on your roster matter in regards to NCAA tourney success? When has the most talented team won the NCAA tourney last? The Anthony Davis UK team? Houston matched up well against us and our one guy who could truly factor into success for us in that game, Tubelis, was a no show. It happens. It's basketball. One game does not dictate a season. Stop it.

I know you're wrong about this, although I do like your takes from time to time. I will go to my grave saying Aquaman is nothing more than a handsome blonde dude who could talk to fish dammit! You will never convince me otherwise.

Don't throw this on Rawle, I want the smoke too.

First, I hate extensions based off one year. On principle. As you note, it's also sort of a meaningless one year, leading to the obvious inference everyone knows it's a PR thing that doesn't meaningfully influence his future.

He had 4 years left. You can wait two years to consider an extension and come to the table with something more meaningful.

On the one game, we got outplayed and outcompeted twice in a row, probably three times if we're being frank. Wright State was within 8 points with under 15 minutes to play. TCU outhustled and outplayed us quite clearly in my view. Then Houston did too and we couldn't get rescued by talent.

That's my sticking point. Kerr's injury, absolutely not in Lloyd's control. Tubelis's issues, probably same. But it wasn't that we lost by being outmanned, we lost by being outworked and losing the battle of aggression.

Yes, it was only 2 or 3 games, but it was also the biggest 2 or 3 games of the year. Miller regularly won the Pac and got fired. I think we're past being satisfied with Pac titles, rightfully. We struggled the 3 post FBI years, but won 5 of 8 Pac titles before that and were 2nd, 3rd and 4th the other 3 years. I don't see the standard as "Yay, we won the Pac! Success!"

[ChooChooCat]

Choo, for the record I did not originate this post. I just merely cosigned with other posters, I'm not sure where your energy is coming from. You might want to direct it at them. I do believe that it would have been better to wait to extend him and then give him a hefty raise, You can have a positive relationship with someone without rushing to extend them, it's not mutually exclusive.

Top to bottom, we had about 5-6 pros on our roster to UNC's (zero?). UNC played very well, but we were not competitive enough against Houston. UNC was far more consistently competitive than we were in the tournatment, despite having lesser high end talent. I'm not the only one saying this on the board, and it's certainly not a new observation.

I think you're wrong about this, although I do like your takes from time to time. Just like I thought you were clearly wrong when you said that Aquaman wasn't a superhero.

Well then you and your cosigned posters were wrong. One bad game does not a "Coach of the year with a ton of a ccomplishments does not deserve an extension" make.

Also since when has the amount of pros you have on your roster matter in regards to NCAA tourney success? When has the most talented team won the NCAA tourney last? The Anthony Davis UK team? Houston matched up well against us and our one guy who could truly factor into success for us in that game, Tubelis, was a no show. It happens. It's basketball. One game does not dictate a season. Stop it.

I know you're wrong about this, although I do like your takes from time to time. I will go to my grave saying Aquaman is nothing more than a handsome blonde dude who could talk to fish dammit! You will never convince me otherwise.

Don't throw this on Rawle, I want the smoke too.

First, I hate extensions based off one year. On principle. As you note, it's also sort of a meaningless one year, leading to the obvious inference everyone knows it's a PR thing that doesn't meaningfully influence his future.

He had 4 years left. You can wait two years to consider an extension and come to the table with something more meaningful.

On the one game, we got outplayed and outcompeted twice in a row, probably three times if we're being frank. Wright State was within 8 points with under 15 minutes to play. TCU outhustled and outplayed us quite clearly in my view. Then Houston did too and we couldn't get rescued by talent.

That's my sticking point. Kerr's injury, absolutely not in Lloyd's control. Tubelis's issues, probably same. But it wasn't that we lost by being outmanned, we lost by being outworked and losing the battle of aggression.

Yes, it was only 2 or 3 games, but it was also the biggest 2 or 3 games of the year. Miller regularly won the Pac and got fired. I think we're past being satisfied with Pac titles, rightfully. We struggled the 3 post FBI years, but won 5 of 8 Pac titles before that and were 2nd, 3rd and 4th the other 3 years. I don't see the standard as "Yay, we won the Pac! Success!"

Ok you lost me once you brought up Miller as if Tommy's current situation and the reason we fired Miller have anything remotely in common. We didn't fire Sean Miller because he wasn't meeting our expectations in the NCAA tourney. Hell he wasn't even getting there more often than not in the end. Either way It's a business. In this business you're coach is either on a max amount of years or he's not. If he's not it's because he has failed. Tommy exceeded expectations, you reward him for that. Also these coaches' egos are so damn fragile that you have to keep showing you love them as much as possible otherwise when an actual threat comes along they will take that route quickly. It's a game and it's a business. You have to know how to run it. Tommy would have options if he feels "unloved." There's a reason he gets an immediate extension and Jedd Fisch didn't.

[goslingswagg]

Choo, for the record I did not originate this post. I just merely cosigned with other posters, I'm not sure where your energy is coming from. You might want to direct it at them. I do believe that it would have been better to wait to extend him and then give him a hefty raise, You can have a positive relationship with someone without rushing to extend them, it's not mutually exclusive.

Top to bottom, we had about 5-6 pros on our roster to UNC's (zero?). UNC played very well, but we were not competitive enough against Houston. UNC was far more consistently competitive than we were in the tournatment, despite having lesser high end talent. I'm not the only one saying this on the board, and it's certainly not a new observation.

I think you're wrong about this, although I do like your takes from time to time. Just like I thought you were clearly wrong when you said that Aquaman wasn't a superhero.

Well then you and your cosigned posters were wrong. One bad game does not a "Coach of the year with a ton of a ccomplishments does not deserve an extension" make.

Also since when has the amount of pros you have on your roster matter in regards to NCAA tourney success? When has the most talented team won the NCAA tourney last? The Anthony Davis UK team? Houston matched up well against us and our one guy who could truly factor into success for us in that game, Tubelis, was a no show. It happens. It's basketball. One game does not dictate a season. Stop it.

I know you're wrong about this, although I do like your takes from time to time. I will go to my grave saying Aquaman is nothing more than a handsome blonde dude who could talk to fish dammit! You will never convince me otherwise.

Don't throw this on Rawle, I want the smoke too.

First, I hate extensions based off one year. On principle. As you note, it's also sort of a meaningless one year, leading to the obvious inference everyone knows it's a PR thing that doesn't meaningfully influence his future.

He had 4 years left. You can wait two years to consider an extension and come to the table with something more meaningful.

On the one game, we got outplayed and outcompeted twice in a row, probably three times if we're being frank. Wright State was within 8 points with under 15 minutes to play. TCU outhustled and outplayed us quite clearly in my view. Then Houston did too and we couldn't get rescued by talent.

That's my sticking point. Kerr's injury, absolutely not in Lloyd's control. Tubelis's issues, probably same. But it wasn't that we lost by being outmanned, we lost by being outworked and losing the battle of aggression.

Yes, it was only 2 or 3 games, but it was also the biggest 2 or 3 games of the year. Miller regularly won the Pac and got fired. I think we're past being satisfied with Pac titles, rightfully. We struggled the 3 post FBI years, but won 5 of 8 Pac titles before that and were 2nd, 3rd and 4th the other 3 years. I don't see the standard as "Yay, we won the Pac! Success!"

I don't know how you can acknowledge the uselessness of two key starters throughout the tournament, and then still gripe with the fact that we made it to the second weekend and lost to a solid, experienced team with a great head coach. We didn't look great in the tournament in any individual game, but given the context, with Kerr and Zu as massive net negatives throughout the entire tournament, we were within 2 possessions with 2 minutes left in a game to advance to the EE...I just don't see how that can be regarded as a blemish on TL's track record. When looking at the year in totality, and particularly when we had a healthy, functioning team, TL did as good of a job as any coach in the country (hence, the COTY award).

[Merkin]

Normally such extensions benefit the coach, not the school.

Does anyone know what his buyout would be if he left? And yes I know this is his dream job.

[UAEebs86]

Normally such extensions benefit the coach, not the school.

Does anyone know what his buyout would be if he left? And yes I know this is his dream job.

Scheer said it was a hefty buyout but I never saw the actual amount.

[ChooChooCat]

Normally such extensions benefit the coach, not the school.

Does anyone know what his buyout would be if he left? And yes I know this is his dream job.

Scheer said it was a hefty buyout but I never saw the actual amount.

$12 million at first and deescalates from there.

[azcat49]

Just my thought but I believe it was said that he had tge 5 years plus at least a couple more given the penalties coming up. I just figured the extension was a given to get him to that number.

The additional comp was the reward for a season/job well done and the boosted pay back was to protect us from losing a really good coach

[dmjcat]

https://thefieldof68.substack.com/p/thr ... isions?s=r

1. Ramey, Baker, Grandison closing in on schools
Courtney Ramey chopped his list this week to West Virginia and Arizona. Only 24 hours later, on3.com reported that Ramey looks Arizona bound.

Arizona desperately needs proven guard options, and Ramey scored 1,275 points and started 106 games in four years with Texas. The guard trio of Ramey, Kerr Kriisa, and Pelle Larson would give Tommy Lloyd three competent playmakers and shooters to open up the interior for Azuolas Tubelis and Oumar Ballo. Adding Ramey would put the Wildcats back among the top 25.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Ok you lost me once you brought up Miller as if Tommy's current situation and the reason we fired Miller have anything remotely in common. We didn't fire Sean Miller because he wasn't meeting our expectations in the NCAA tourney. Hell he wasn't even getting there more often than not in the end. Either way It's a business. In this business you're coach is either on a max amount of years or he's not. If he's not it's because he has failed. Tommy exceeded expectations, you reward him for that. Also these coaches' egos are so damn fragile that you have to keep showing you love them as much as possible otherwise when an actual threat comes along they will take that route quickly. It's a game and it's a business. You have to know how to run it. Tommy would have options if he feels "unloved." There's a reason he gets an immediate extension and Jedd Fisch didn't.

I brought up Miller because if there's a standard for judging the contract situation and standard of success for an Arizona basketball coach, the most natural comparison is the preceding coach.

I significantly disagree that Miller wasn't getting to the tournament more often than not. Unless your standard is making the tournament when it's impossible due to the tournament being cancelled or a self-ban, Miller had tourney teams 9 of his last 10 years. 19-20 and 20-21 were tourney teams that Covid and Robbins made the tourney impossible.

On Lloyd's satisfaction, I'm surprised how fast we've gone from "The only HC job Tommy would consider is Arizona" to "We have to worry about losing him if we don't hand him extensions every single year."

More to the point, it sets a bad standard. If you condition an extension every year, what do you do in years like 2016? 2016 wasn't great or extension worthy, but in no world is a coach's job in jeopardy after a decent season on the heels of 2 Elite 8 appearances. If/when Lloyd has that type of season, extending him would be unwarranted, but when you're extending him every year for the feelings...

I mean, I have no issue conditioning extensions on the real expectations, consistent winning. Or be honest about what they're conditioned on, being Robbins's boy and having a good enough season for Bobby to get good PR with an extension.

Finally, it just blows me away that I've heard a years long narrative our loss to Xavier as a 2 seed in the 2017 Sweet 16 was disappointing and now we're trumpeting a Sweet 16 loss as a 1 seed as a successful season. I genuinely thought a good regular season with a early tourney exit and meh tourney play was disappointing, not a success.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I don't know how you can acknowledge the uselessness of two key starters throughout the tournament, and then still gripe with the fact that we made it to the second weekend and lost to a solid, experienced team with a great head coach. We didn't look great in the tournament in any individual game, but given the context, with Kerr and Zu as massive net negatives throughout the entire tournament, we were within 2 possessions with 2 minutes left in a game to advance to the EE...I just don't see how that can be regarded as a blemish on TL's track record. When looking at the year in totality, and particularly when we had a healthy, functioning team, TL did as good of a job as any coach in the country (hence, the COTY award).

I see it as pretty straightforward. If we'd matched the aggressiveness and effort of TCU and Houston and lost due to personnel limits, I wouldn't complain. We didn't match their aggressiveness and effort, and that's the issue for me.

I raised the 2017 Xavier loss. I never was as dissatisfied with that. We struggled because we were ice cold most of the night, but we played our asses off, murdered them on the boards and were ready to win until a final cold streak got us. But we matched or exceeded their effort and aggressiveness for 40 minutes.

I can easily forgive injuries, cold streaks and other stuff that just happens. No coach controls that. Effort and aggressiveness is a completely different category. Those are 1000% controllable and you don't win anything of note if you lose those categories. We lost them to TCU and Houston and potentially even to Wright State.

[ChooChooCat]

Ok you lost me once you brought up Miller as if Tommy's current situation and the reason we fired Miller have anything remotely in common. We didn't fire Sean Miller because he wasn't meeting our expectations in the NCAA tourney. Hell he wasn't even getting there more often than not in the end. Either way It's a business. In this business you're coach is either on a max amount of years or he's not. If he's not it's because he has failed. Tommy exceeded expectations, you reward him for that. Also these coaches' egos are so damn fragile that you have to keep showing you love them as much as possible otherwise when an actual threat comes along they will take that route quickly. It's a game and it's a business. You have to know how to run it. Tommy would have options if he feels "unloved." There's a reason he gets an immediate extension and Jedd Fisch didn't.

I brought up Miller because if there's a standard for judging the contract situation and standard of success for an Arizona basketball coach, the most natural comparison is the preceding coach.

I significantly disagree that Miller wasn't getting to the tournament more often than not. Unless your standard is making the tournament when it's impossible due to the tournament being cancelled or a self-ban, Miller had tourney teams 9 of his last 10 years. 19-20 and 20-21 were tourney teams that Covid and Robbins made the tourney impossible.

On Lloyd's satisfaction, I'm surprised how fast we've gone from "The only HC job Tommy would consider is Arizona" to "We have to worry about losing him if we don't hand him extensions every single year."

More to the point, it sets a bad standard. If you condition an extension every year, what do you do in years like 2016? 2016 wasn't great or extension worthy, but in no world is a coach's job in jeopardy after a decent season on the heels of 2 Elite 8 appearances. If/when Lloyd has that type of season, extending him would be unwarranted, but when you're extending him every year for the feelings...

I mean, I have no issue conditioning extensions on the real expectations, consistent winning. Or be honest about what they're conditioned on, being Robbins's boy and having a good enough season for Bobby to get good PR with an extension.

Finally, it just blows me away that I've heard a years long narrative our loss to Xavier as a 2 seed in the 2017 Sweet 16 was disappointing and now we're trumpeting a Sweet 16 loss as a 1 seed as a successful season. I genuinely thought a good regular season with a early tourney exit and meh tourney play was disappointing, not a success.

Well if you want to use the last coach for contract purposes, the guy was extended every offseason (following a winning one) back to a 5 year deal. He was given a significant bump in pay after 2011 (Elite 8). So as long as Tommy doesn’t have an assistant get busted by the FBI chances of him getting an extension after a good normal year is pretty fucking high.

Sean Miller was how many years into being a head coach when he blew that Xavier game? How many guys did he have injured? Which future NBA lottery guy was ignored on offense almost entirely? Was Xavier ranked higher than us in Kenpom like Houston was? How is that game remotely comparable to Tommy’s situation this year outside of both being Sweet 16 games? You’re my man Spiff, but you’re reaching so far on this you’ve pulled your lower back to the point of no return.

[UAEebs86]

Yeah I don't get the hand wringing over a 1-year extension to a coach that got a #1 seed.

[Beachcat97]

Yeah I don't get the hand wringing over a 1-year extension to a coach that got a #1 seed.

20 years without a Final Four will do that to a fan base.

[RawleArenas]

I don't know how you can acknowledge the uselessness of two key starters throughout the tournament, and then still gripe with the fact that we made it to the second weekend and lost to a solid, experienced team with a great head coach. We didn't look great in the tournament in any individual game, but given the context, with Kerr and Zu as massive net negatives throughout the entire tournament, we were within 2 possessions with 2 minutes left in a game to advance to the EE...I just don't see how that can be regarded as a blemish on TL's track record. When looking at the year in totality, and particularly when we had a healthy, functioning team, TL did as good of a job as any coach in the country (hence, the COTY award).

I see it as pretty straightforward. If we'd matched the aggressiveness and effort of TCU and Houston and lost due to personnel limits, I wouldn't complain. We didn't match their aggressiveness and effort, and that's the issue for me.

I raised the 2017 Xavier loss. I never was as dissatisfied with that. We struggled because we were ice cold most of the night, but we played our asses off, murdered them on the boards and were ready to win until a final cold streak got us. But we matched or exceeded their effort and aggressiveness for 40 minutes.

I can easily forgive injuries, cold streaks and other stuff that just happens. No coach controls that. Effort and aggressiveness is a completely different category. Those are 1000% controllable and you don't win anything of note if you lose those categories. We lost them to TCU and Houston and potentially even to Wright State.

I completely cosign this.

In all fairness, Tommy was hired to get us over the hump, and the fact that we played timid is a little concerning. Even for a first year coach. Gonzaga wilted under physical pressure two years running, and I'm not quick to give a pass to Lloyd because he exceeded regular season expectations. He's seen this movie before.

And if this is Tommy's dream job and if he wasn't blowing smoke when he said that he knew that earning our support and trust wasn't going to be easy. Then criticisms like this in year one shouldn't surprise him at all.

Also, to the Xavier loss, if I'm not mistaken they lost two quality players during the regular season that dramatically affected their KenPom standings. Those players were available for the tournament which led to a for more competitive sweet 16 than we expected (we still should have won though). In terms of Houston, they lost their Mathurin and Koloko for the entire season (Marcus Sasser and Tramon Mark) and didn't skip a beat. Kriisa and Zu were available but not 100 percent (physically or emotionally), and somehow we end up getting roughed up by Houston's 'B' squad.
So yes, I'm not going to be nice about it because if we didn't have Koloko and Benn for the game we would have gotten completely rolled. But somehow Houston, last years UCLA and other teams find a way to manage. That goes to coaching.

I like Tommy, but we need to bring the ruckus for big games. Last time we went to a Final Four I was in my early twenties and excited about our Wildcat future. Now its over twenty years later and we're making excuses for playing soft when it matters the most.

[goslingswagg]

Ok you lost me once you brought up Miller as if Tommy's current situation and the reason we fired Miller have anything remotely in common. We didn't fire Sean Miller because he wasn't meeting our expectations in the NCAA tourney. Hell he wasn't even getting there more often than not in the end. Either way It's a business. In this business you're coach is either on a max amount of years or he's not. If he's not it's because he has failed. Tommy exceeded expectations, you reward him for that. Also these coaches' egos are so damn fragile that you have to keep showing you love them as much as possible otherwise when an actual threat comes along they will take that route quickly. It's a game and it's a business. You have to know how to run it. Tommy would have options if he feels "unloved." There's a reason he gets an immediate extension and Jedd Fisch didn't.

I brought up Miller because if there's a standard for judging the contract situation and standard of success for an Arizona basketball coach, the most natural comparison is the preceding coach.

I significantly disagree that Miller wasn't getting to the tournament more often than not. Unless your standard is making the tournament when it's impossible due to the tournament being cancelled or a self-ban, Miller had tourney teams 9 of his last 10 years. 19-20 and 20-21 were tourney teams that Covid and Robbins made the tourney impossible.

On Lloyd's satisfaction, I'm surprised how fast we've gone from "The only HC job Tommy would consider is Arizona" to "We have to worry about losing him if we don't hand him extensions every single year."

More to the point, it sets a bad standard. If you condition an extension every year, what do you do in years like 2016? 2016 wasn't great or extension worthy, but in no world is a coach's job in jeopardy after a decent season on the heels of 2 Elite 8 appearances. If/when Lloyd has that type of season, extending him would be unwarranted, but when you're extending him every year for the feelings...

I mean, I have no issue conditioning extensions on the real expectations, consistent winning. Or be honest about what they're conditioned on, being Robbins's boy and having a good enough season for Bobby to get good PR with an extension.

Finally, it just blows me away that I've heard a years long narrative our loss to Xavier as a 2 seed in the 2017 Sweet 16 was disappointing and now we're trumpeting a Sweet 16 loss as a 1 seed as a successful season. I genuinely thought a good regular season with a early tourney exit and meh tourney play was disappointing, not a success.

I think blindly comparing those tournament results without context is a mistake. There is absolutely no fair comparison from this past year's loss to the loss to Xavier in 2017. We were significantly superior to that Xavier team (an 11 seed), and had a healthy and talented group (Kadeem, Lauri, Trier, Rawle, etc.) that clearly should have won that game. There was just no excuse for that loss that held water, particularly given where Miller was in his tenure. This Houston team was a top 5 team in the country in the key computer models (finished #2 in KP), and we were completely beat up, with two starters that were clear net negatives on the court. There just is no fair comparison between the two.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Ok you lost me once you brought up Miller as if Tommy's current situation and the reason we fired Miller have anything remotely in common. We didn't fire Sean Miller because he wasn't meeting our expectations in the NCAA tourney. Hell he wasn't even getting there more often than not in the end. Either way It's a business. In this business you're coach is either on a max amount of years or he's not. If he's not it's because he has failed. Tommy exceeded expectations, you reward him for that. Also these coaches' egos are so damn fragile that you have to keep showing you love them as much as possible otherwise when an actual threat comes along they will take that route quickly. It's a game and it's a business. You have to know how to run it. Tommy would have options if he feels "unloved." There's a reason he gets an immediate extension and Jedd Fisch didn't.

I brought up Miller because if there's a standard for judging the contract situation and standard of success for an Arizona basketball coach, the most natural comparison is the preceding coach.

I significantly disagree that Miller wasn't getting to the tournament more often than not. Unless your standard is making the tournament when it's impossible due to the tournament being cancelled or a self-ban, Miller had tourney teams 9 of his last 10 years. 19-20 and 20-21 were tourney teams that Covid and Robbins made the tourney impossible.

On Lloyd's satisfaction, I'm surprised how fast we've gone from "The only HC job Tommy would consider is Arizona" to "We have to worry about losing him if we don't hand him extensions every single year."

More to the point, it sets a bad standard. If you condition an extension every year, what do you do in years like 2016? 2016 wasn't great or extension worthy, but in no world is a coach's job in jeopardy after a decent season on the heels of 2 Elite 8 appearances. If/when Lloyd has that type of season, extending him would be unwarranted, but when you're extending him every year for the feelings...

I mean, I have no issue conditioning extensions on the real expectations, consistent winning. Or be honest about what they're conditioned on, being Robbins's boy and having a good enough season for Bobby to get good PR with an extension.

Finally, it just blows me away that I've heard a years long narrative our loss to Xavier as a 2 seed in the 2017 Sweet 16 was disappointing and now we're trumpeting a Sweet 16 loss as a 1 seed as a successful season. I genuinely thought a good regular season with a early tourney exit and meh tourney play was disappointing, not a success.

Well if you want to use the last coach for contract purposes, the guy was extended every offseason (following a winning one) back to a 5 year deal. He was given a significant bump in pay after 2011 (Elite 8). So as long as Tommy doesn’t have an assistant get busted by the FBI chances of him getting an extension after a good normal year is pretty fucking high.

Sean Miller was how many years into being a head coach when he blew that Xavier game? How many guys did he have injured? Which future NBA lottery guy was ignored on offense almost entirely? Was Xavier ranked higher than us in Kenpom like Houston was? How is that game remotely comparable to Tommy’s situation this year outside of both being Sweet 16 games? You’re my man Spiff, but you’re reaching so far on this you’ve pulled your lower back to the point of no return.

I think you're wrong saying Miller's contract was extended after every winning season. He was extended in February, 2017 to give 5 years through the 21-22 season. He was never extended again, despite every subsequent season being a winning one.

Also, as I clearly said, I'd tell you some of SM's years, namely 2016, didn't deserve an extension. So, I'm not being inconsistent with Lloyd.

On the tourney games, the easiest effort/aggression stat to quantify is rebounds. We were +11 vs Xavier. Hence my comment we played so hard and aggressive we kept ourselves in it despite poor shooting (25% from 3 as one example). We were -1 vs TCU and -2 vs Houston. Hence my belief we got outcompeted. Last year's team was not a poor rebounding team, but we lost that battle twice in a row.

Finally, in terms of comparability of situations...dude, the one aspect of all of sports I think you learn Day 1 and know matters independent of all else is competing and playing hard. I'm sorry, but acting like Lloyd somehow doesn't have an appropriate basis for that understanding strikes me as condescending to Lloyd. I'd wager he'd tell you himself we should have been better in that area.

Bottom line is I also don't mean this as a slam on Lloyd. He's a first year HC. Even experienced HC's have areas they can develop, a first year guy certainly does. That said, it doesn't make getting outcompeted in the two biggest games of the year good.

Edit: I should have included I respect your takes and insider knowledge, so please don't take my disagreement or argument personally.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I don't know how you can acknowledge the uselessness of two key starters throughout the tournament, and then still gripe with the fact that we made it to the second weekend and lost to a solid, experienced team with a great head coach. We didn't look great in the tournament in any individual game, but given the context, with Kerr and Zu as massive net negatives throughout the entire tournament, we were within 2 possessions with 2 minutes left in a game to advance to the EE...I just don't see how that can be regarded as a blemish on TL's track record. When looking at the year in totality, and particularly when we had a healthy, functioning team, TL did as good of a job as any coach in the country (hence, the COTY award).

I see it as pretty straightforward. If we'd matched the aggressiveness and effort of TCU and Houston and lost due to personnel limits, I wouldn't complain. We didn't match their aggressiveness and effort, and that's the issue for me.

I raised the 2017 Xavier loss. I never was as dissatisfied with that. We struggled because we were ice cold most of the night, but we played our asses off, murdered them on the boards and were ready to win until a final cold streak got us. But we matched or exceeded their effort and aggressiveness for 40 minutes.

I can easily forgive injuries, cold streaks and other stuff that just happens. No coach controls that. Effort and aggressiveness is a completely different category. Those are 1000% controllable and you don't win anything of note if you lose those categories. We lost them to TCU and Houston and potentially even to Wright State.

I completely cosign this.

In all fairness, Tommy was hired to get us over the hump, and the fact that we played timid is a little concerning. Even for a first year coach. Gonzaga wilted under physical pressure two years running, and I'm not quick to give a pass to Lloyd because he exceeded regular season expectations. He's seen this movie before.

And if this is Tommy's dream job and if he wasn't blowing smoke when he said that he knew that earning our support and trust wasn't going to be easy. Then criticisms like this in year one shouldn't surprise him at all.

Also, to the Xavier loss, if I'm not mistaken they lost two quality players during the regular season that dramatically affected their KenPom standings. Those players were available for the tournament which led to a for more competitive sweet 16 than we expected (we still should have won though). In terms of Houston, they lost their Mathurin and Koloko for the entire season (Marcus Sasser and Tramon Mark) and didn't skip a beat. Kriisa and Zu were available but not 100 percent (physically or emotionally), and somehow we end up getting roughed up by Houston's 'B' squad.
So yes, I'm not going to be nice about it because if we didn't have Koloko and Benn for the game we would have gotten completely rolled. But somehow Houston, last years UCLA and other teams find a way to manage. That goes to coaching.

I like Tommy, but we need to bring the ruckus for big games. Last time we went to a Final Four I was in my early twenties and excited about our Wildcat future. Now its over twenty years later and we're making excuses for playing soft when it matters the most.

I could not agree more. Bottom line for me is we didn't play as hard or aggressively as TCU or Houston. And that's a very basic thing.

Full agree on the Xavier and Houston personnel issues, although the biggest issue for me is always how we play. Like, I was disappointed bc we were stuck in neutral vs Wright State for 25 minutes...although we had them massively outmanned and pulled away as soon as we hit a streak.

Final agreement is what we're here for. I'm no longer here to regard a Sweet 16 as a success. It isn't binary, so it may not be a failure, but I'm really surprised at the consensus that a Sweet 16 L can be a success...especially when you see a NBA lottery talent and two other potential 1st rounders in this year's draft on the roster. It isn't like this was a barren roster where Sweet 16 is beyond the talent level.