2023-2024 Arizona Basketball

[azcat49]

I am so excited and really nervous at the same time. I don’t want it to end. We deserve a shot at the promised land

[Beachcat97]

I am so excited and really nervous at the same time. I don’t want it to end. We deserve a shot at the promised land

This is exactly how I feel, azcat. I want to see this team keep going.

[Beachcat97]

Great call out.

I like these graphics but I think the author struggles with correlation vs causation

I like them too but I struggle with why folks still use overall tempo or pace as any kind of marker for playing well/efficient.

If you have a good defense your tempo is going to be slower.

If you have a poor defense your tempo is going to be faster.

Having a good offense is independent of tempo.

Having a poor offense is independent of tempo.

Not sure I’d be using NET either but whatever.

Once you understand the correlation, or not, of average possession length with defense, or not for offense the game starts to make more sense imo.

I think there is something to his graphics above but they are highly skewed by what is above.

If you want to see examples that will connect with your mind just bring up Sean Miller’s career KenPom page and look at the quality of his offenses and offensive APL and quality of his defenses (and 2FG% defense) and defensive APL and the clouds will part.

You can do the same to see examples of how you “cant defend 3FG shooting”.

The graphic has nothing to do with efficiency. I think people focus on tempo because half-court offense and defense is so important in the tourney. You have to go back to the 2009 Tar Heels for a champion with KenPom top 10 tempo.

The UNC thing is true (I assume it is) because: teams that win the Natty have good = slow defenses, which slows their overall “tempo”.

Focusing on overall tempo is erroneous.

If you broke out an offensive metric and wanted to look at average possession length while on offense you might be on to something. You could try to make the case for “to succeed in the NCAA tournament you have to play both well and slow while on offense”.

There is no need to do that for defense because almost all very good defenses are also “very slow”. Again, defensive efficiency is directly related to possession length. In that regard defensive “tempo” doesn’t mean anything. Because: you essentially can’t be a good defense without being “slow”.

The same does not hold for offense. If you look at that chart and find the teams with the highest overall tempos what you’ll have is a cohort of (relatively) poor defenses and fast offenses. If you look at the cohort of teams with the slowest tempo you’ll have a cohort of very good defenses and slower offenses.

Combine the 2 sides of the floor into one pace or tempo and you lose the forest through the trees.

Also, when it comes to high level NCAA tournament success — making Final Fours and winning Natties — good offense is slightly more important than good defense. Good defenses lose to good offenses at that level more often than the opposite. Not sure how the changes in the charge rule will affect this.

I think this is spot on about good offense beating good defense once we get to this level. The metrics bear this out, and more anecdotally, we can probably all think of times we lost in the tourney to a team that couldn’t miss. Sean Miller had some of the best defenses in the country while at AZ, and it didn’t make a difference against hot-shooting Wisconsin, Wichita St or Buffalo.

[CalStateTempe]

Those ghosts of whisky, Wichita State, Buffalo, Xavier, are hitting hard today.

The closest game time we get, the more nervous I feel

[Merkin]

At least Boswell can legally gamble now at the Indian Casinos.

I think it was Bill Walton or some other great player who said they were so nervous before each game they could have thrown up and it never ended.

[Beachcat97]

Those ghosts of whisky, Wichita State, Buffalo, Xavier, are hitting hard today.

The closest game time we get, the more nervous I feel

Can't let their bigs get going. And our bigs have to avoid foul trouble.

[Beachcat97]

Those ghosts of whisky, Wichita State, Buffalo, Xavier, are hitting hard today.

The closest game time we get, the more nervous I feel

We're not adding Clemson to that list.

[AZCatGirl]

At least Boswell can legally gamble now at the Indian Casinos.

I think it was Bill Walton or some other great player who said they were so nervous before each game they could have thrown up and it never ended.

Who was that football player that literally threw up right before a bowl game and kept playing? It was just a few years ago.

[Alieberman]

Love the Cats

So disappointing… and I can’t bare to read posts for a while…

Out for a little bit…

[Merkin]

Thanks to the seniors but it's time to move on. Not a NBA minute will happen between you.

Another disappointing end to another UA season.

Mid major coach who can't control his team nor make adjustments.

Boswell off the bench next season. But llove the freshmen

[dmjcat]

We won the last PAC12 title and reached the Sweet 16. Thats a pretty good year, especially with inconsistent guards.

Going forward I would like to see Lloyd target WSU's PG (frosh of the year in the PAC12).

I have to believe that Lewis/Sanon/Philips (at least one) can play the SG position more consistently (and with more brains) than Love

[SabinoDrifter]

I know Scheer can be annoying, but this is spot on.

Love, Boswell, Larsson all played like complete shitheads. Love and Larsson is inexcusable considering the flow of the game and the fact they couldn't stop Ballo.

[Beachcat97]

There was clearly something off with the team's mental preparation, readiness and resilience today.

The team I just watched lose to Clemson -- fucking CLEMSON! -- is not the same team I saw win game after game after game this year, against much teams than Clemson. Not to take anything away from Clemson. They deserved to win. They controlled the game from start to finish and took full advantage of our deer-in-headlights team.

The more times we lose in the tourney, when we're favored, the more I look back at our teams that reached the Final Four and wonder, what was different? I can't put my finger on it.

[84Cat]

There was clearly something off with the team's mental preparation, readiness and resilience today.

The team I just watched lose to Clemson -- fucking CLEMSON! -- is not the same team I saw win game after game after game this year, against much teams than Clemson. Not to take anything away from Clemson. They deserved to win. They controlled the game from start to finish and took full advantage of our deer-in-headlights team.

The more times we lose in the tourney, when we're favored, the more I look back at our teams that reached the Final Four and wonder, what was different? I can't put my finger on it.

Guards, Steve Kerr, Mike Bobby, Jason Terry, Khalid Reeves, Damon Stoudimire, Gilbert Arenas,

[Merkin]

There was clearly something off with the team's mental preparation, readiness and resilience today.

The team I just watched lose to Clemson -- fucking CLEMSON! -- is not the same team I saw win game after game after game this year, against much teams than Clemson. Not to take anything away from Clemson. They deserved to win. They controlled the game from start to finish and took full advantage of our deer-in-headlights team.

The more times we lose in the tourney, when we're favored, the more I look back at our teams that reached the Final Four and wonder, what was different? I can't put my finger on it.

Guards, Steve Kerr, Mike Bobby, Jason Terry, Khalid Reeves, Damon Stoudimire

With the exception of TJ, UA had not been point guard U once Lute signed Mustafa Shakur.

[Abrahamarvel]

Thankful for Love for the lone season, with that been said, I wonder if he didn't come in, we had the minutes for KJ and Bradley to develop for a year, what may the result be in the tournament. We might be a lower seed, but we probably won't rely on Love's inconsistent at best offense when it matters.

[Beachcat97]

There was clearly something off with the team's mental preparation, readiness and resilience today.

The team I just watched lose to Clemson -- fucking CLEMSON! -- is not the same team I saw win game after game after game this year, against much teams than Clemson. Not to take anything away from Clemson. They deserved to win. They controlled the game from start to finish and took full advantage of our deer-in-headlights team.

The more times we lose in the tourney, when we're favored, the more I look back at our teams that reached the Final Four and wonder, what was different? I can't put my finger on it.

Guards, Steve Kerr, Mike Bobby, Jason Terry, Khalid Reeves, Damon Stoudimire, Gilbert Arenas,

I hear you, and yes, those are all special players. But was Khalid Reeves really all that better than, say, Jason Gardner or Nick Johnson or Benedict Mathurin? This group of great guards who got to the FF benefited from playing on very good teams who played well through March. It's the "through March" part that has proven so elusive for Arizona basketball over the past 20 years. Across different coaching eras, different hoops eras and different kinds of rosters, Arizona has consistently underperformed in the NCAA tournament, with few exceptions.

[MrKyle]

There was clearly something off with the team's mental preparation, readiness and resilience today.

The team I just watched lose to Clemson -- fucking CLEMSON! -- is not the same team I saw win game after game after game this year, against much teams than Clemson. Not to take anything away from Clemson. They deserved to win. They controlled the game from start to finish and took full advantage of our deer-in-headlights team.

The more times we lose in the tourney, when we're favored, the more I look back at our teams that reached the Final Four and wonder, what was different? I can't put my finger on it.

Guards, Steve Kerr, Mike Bobby, Jason Terry, Khalid Reeves, Damon Stoudimire, Gilbert Arenas,

This is it!!

We haven’t had an elite PG since TJ, and he was more of a diamond in the rough.

Recruiting and getting a tough as nails PG who can create for teammates and himself is priority number one.

Should go after the WSU PG heavy as a transfer, or all in with Jaden for next year and hope we can pull a recruit PG

[84Cat]

There was clearly something off with the team's mental preparation, readiness and resilience today.

The team I just watched lose to Clemson -- fucking CLEMSON! -- is not the same team I saw win game after game after game this year, against much teams than Clemson. Not to take anything away from Clemson. They deserved to win. They controlled the game from start to finish and took full advantage of our deer-in-headlights team.

The more times we lose in the tourney, when we're favored, the more I look back at our teams that reached the Final Four and wonder, what was different? I can't put my finger on it.

Guards, Steve Kerr, Mike Bobby, Jason Terry, Khalid Reeves, Damon Stoudimire

With the exception of TJ, UA had not been point guard U once Lute signed Mustafa Shakur.

Bayless was pretty good

[84Cat]

There was clearly something off with the team's mental preparation, readiness and resilience today.

The team I just watched lose to Clemson -- fucking CLEMSON! -- is not the same team I saw win game after game after game this year, against much teams than Clemson. Not to take anything away from Clemson. They deserved to win. They controlled the game from start to finish and took full advantage of our deer-in-headlights team.

The more times we lose in the tourney, when we're favored, the more I look back at our teams that reached the Final Four and wonder, what was different? I can't put my finger on it.

Guards, Steve Kerr, Mike Bobby, Jason Terry, Khalid Reeves, Damon Stoudimire, Gilbert Arenas,

I hear you, and yes, those are all special players. But was Khalid Reeves really all that better than, say, Jason Gardner or Nick Johnson or Benedict Mathurin? This group of great guards who got to the FF benefited from playing on very good teams who played well through March. It's the "through March" part that has proven so elusive for Arizona basketball over the past 20 years. Across different coaching eras, different hoops eras and different kinds of rosters, Arizona has consistently underperformed in the NCAA tournament, with few exceptions.

Khalid was an absolute stud in college. He could and did carry the team many games his senior year

[Beachcat97]

I think it's true that elite guards are maybe the most precious asset in college hoops. This is why Houston deserves to be considered as much of a favorite as UConn and Purdue.

[MrKyle]

There was clearly something off with the team's mental preparation, readiness and resilience today.

The team I just watched lose to Clemson -- fucking CLEMSON! -- is not the same team I saw win game after game after game this year, against much teams than Clemson. Not to take anything away from Clemson. They deserved to win. They controlled the game from start to finish and took full advantage of our deer-in-headlights team.

The more times we lose in the tourney, when we're favored, the more I look back at our teams that reached the Final Four and wonder, what was different? I can't put my finger on it.

Guards, Steve Kerr, Mike Bobby, Jason Terry, Khalid Reeves, Damon Stoudimire, Gilbert Arenas,

I hear you, and yes, those are all special players. But was Khalid Reeves really all that better than, say, Jason Gardner or Nick Johnson or Benedict Mathurin? This group of great guards who got to the FF benefited from playing on very good teams who played well through March. It's the "through March" part that has proven so elusive for Arizona basketball over the past 20 years. Across different coaching eras, different hoops eras and different kinds of rosters, Arizona has consistently underperformed in the NCAA tournament, with few exceptions.

Khalid was an absolute stud in college. He could and did carry the team many games his senior year

We've been missing the PG who can do that - there have been a few games this year that Boz showed it - and Bradley has shown it in the tournament - unfortunately he didn't get a chance to start and impact from the beginning (which is understandable based on entire season of lineup)

[Merkin]

We haven’t had an elite PG since TJ, and he was more of a diamond in the rough.

The old Goazcats board used to say that team was 4 NBA players and and a slow white point guard from Duquesne with alligator arms. TJ sure showed us.

But Lute knew all along, said the best player on the team was sitting out due to transfer rules of the time.

[VegasCatFan]

Boswell off the bench next season. But llove the freshmen

With Bradley outplaying Boswell, and it’s not even close, is Boswell content with coming off the bench possibly? Or could we possibly be looking at him transferring?

[dirtbags]

There was clearly something off with the team's mental preparation, readiness and resilience today.

The team I just watched lose to Clemson -- fucking CLEMSON! -- is not the same team I saw win game after game after game this year, against much teams than Clemson. Not to take anything away from Clemson. They deserved to win. They controlled the game from start to finish and took full advantage of our deer-in-headlights team.

The more times we lose in the tourney, when we're favored, the more I look back at our teams that reached the Final Four and wonder, what was different? I can't put my finger on it.

Guards, Steve Kerr, Mike Bobby, Jason Terry, Khalid Reeves, Damon Stoudimire

With the exception of TJ, UA had not been point guard U once Lute signed Mustafa Shakur.

josiah turner broke our hearts

[MrKyle]

We haven’t had an elite PG since TJ, and he was more of a diamond in the rough.

The old Goazcats board used to say that team was 4 NBA players and and a slow white point guard from Duquesne with alligator arms. TJ sure showed us.

But Lute knew all along, said the best player on the team was sitting out due to transfer rules of the time.

haha yes, I remember the posts back then!
I loved watching TJ play though, you could just tell how the offense moved so smoothly with him at the helm. Emotional experience to see him go out in the tournament and his last game at home too.

[Beachcat97]

So the point I'd make about TJ is that even with him as our PG, surrounded by future NBA players, we still couldn't get to the FF.

One tough loss against Wisconsin in OT, followed by another loss to the Badgers in a game that wasn't as close as the final score suggests.

Even with one of the best PGs in the country on our team, we come up short.

So while I'm definitely in the "let's get a better PG!" camp, I'm not sure that's the difference between getting to the FF and not.

[MrKyle]

So the point I'd make about TJ is that even with him as our PG, surrounded by future NBA players, we still couldn't get to the FF.

One tough loss against Wisconsin in OT, followed by another loss to the Badgers in a game that wasn't as close as the final score suggests.

Even with one of the best PGs in the country on our team, we come up short.

So while I'm definitely in the "let's get a better PG!" camp, I'm not sure that's the difference between getting to the FF and not.

I understand where you are coming from, but the 2014 team... if BA hadn't went down we were untouchable - and still almost made the FF

[Merkin]

So the point I'd make about TJ is that even with him as our PG, surrounded by future NBA players, we still couldn't get to the FF.

Also, what we thought were future NBA players were not. TJ has more NBA minutes than all the other players from his two years combined.

[SabinoDrifter]

Guards, bad luck, and a weak conference.

Tommy has done an amazing job cleaning up after the CSM fiasco. His teams seem akin to the early Few teams at Gonzaga, tons of wins, March heartbreak. It took them awhile to get to the F4 and I’m confident Tommy can get this program back to the big stage. Let this one simmer for a few days and get ready to strap on the pads. The Big 12 is going to be great for Arizona come next March.

[KillerKlown]

Tommy isn't a problem. He's going on year 4 of his very young hc career.

[1stNGrant Frys]

S16, regular season conference champs, a draft pick or two. The realistic hope of a contending team NEXT year.

the sad thing is it, we're so used to it. That it all feels weirdly comfortable, like a once nice pair of jeans.

[CalStateTempe]

Those ghosts of whisky, Wichita State, Buffalo, Xavier, are hitting hard today.

The closest game time we get, the more nervous I feel

We're not adding Clemson to that list.

Yeah we are.

Arizona is soft against stout teams. Goes back to the 90s in our battles with bama.

[CalStateTempe]

So the point I'd make about TJ is that even with him as our PG, surrounded by future NBA players, we still couldn't get to the FF.

One tough loss against Wisconsin in OT, followed by another loss to the Badgers in a game that wasn't as close as the final score suggests.

Even with one of the best PGs in the country on our team, we come up short.

So while I'm definitely in the "let's get a better PG!" camp, I'm not sure that's the difference between getting to the FF and not.

I understand where you are coming from, but the 2014 team... if BA hadn't went down we were untouchable - and still almost made the FF

I’ll go to my grave thinking we cut nets that year if not for that game against cal.

[MrKyle]

S16, regular season conference champs, a draft pick or two. The realistic hope of a contending team NEXT year.

the sad thing is it, we're so used to it. That it all feels weirdly comfortable, like a once nice pair of jeans.

This is a good point... But I think everyone needs to take a step back and think about what our prospects were going into this year. Top 20 team with some interesting transfers/freshman who could potentially make some noise. The contending team was targeted for 2024 with our first crop of really high tier recruits in CTL era (bryant/phillips/emmanuel) etc.

Team came out of the gates on fire this year, and it looked like we might be a year early. Unfortunately, I think we were a bit spoiled on that front - while this team could compete with any team in the country on its best days - on our worst days we could lose to any team in the country. Lack of razor focus was the downfall of this team, and we saw the same deficiencies in every game we lost this season.

I think CTL can correct this, and should have an amazing team next year.

Are we complacent with a Sweet 16 only, no - but I think this is almost as good of a CSM transition as we could have hoped for tbh.

Bear down!

[MrKyle]

So the point I'd make about TJ is that even with him as our PG, surrounded by future NBA players, we still couldn't get to the FF.

One tough loss against Wisconsin in OT, followed by another loss to the Badgers in a game that wasn't as close as the final score suggests.

Even with one of the best PGs in the country on our team, we come up short.

So while I'm definitely in the "let's get a better PG!" camp, I'm not sure that's the difference between getting to the FF and not.

I understand where you are coming from, but the 2014 team... if BA hadn't went down we were untouchable - and still almost made the FF

I’ll go to my grave thinking we cut nets that year if not for that game against cal.

No doubt in my mind either - that team was just about perfect with the size/ability and teamwork across the board. I'll never forgot that Cal game... sitting in a buffalo wild wings in Newark,CA on a business trip watching the game and literally spit out my beer when BA went down and it was clear he was seriously hurt.

[CalStateTempe]

Same I was in my living room in Durham and I knew the minute he went down that we were done. He was the glue guy of glue guys that year.

[waysouthcat]

Another brutal end to our year. Couldn't have asked for a better setup. E8 would have been against a spent Alabama or NC. F4 in Phoenix. Just the slightest bit of adjustment we should have beaten Clemson handily.

Hope springs eternal, and I will be back hoping next season, but damn it's hard to be a Cats fan.

[AZCatGirl]

Well misery loves company so I'm not upset North Carolina lost too. At least we wont be the only story tonight.

[CalStateTempe]

Is the pressor up from tonight?

[Merkin]

Stop ranking and seeding the UA so high. Don't see this trend ending soon.

Tommy was going to tie for most wins in 3 seasons if he beat Clemson, and set the record in the E8, but now he gets to set another record.

Remember the days when Sean Miller never lost to a lower seed? That was a good run.

[TheCat]

Well misery loves company so I'm not upset North Carolina lost too. At least we wont be the only story tonight.

Their conference player of the year RJ Davis also had a terrible night. 4-20 and 0-9 from 3.

[84Cat]

Is the pressor up from tonight?

Yes

https://youtu.be/cHmY5o-BmcQ?si=muxV_WdeEgVnmEE9

[Postmaster]

I thought it was odd that when Hill went out with 3 fouls, CTL went small. Seemed like MK or OB could have done damage at that point. Instead he went with KJ and 4 perimeter guys.

[PHXCATS]

This is the nature of the NCAA tournament

UA had an off night then pressed it

If this was a 7 game series UA wins 4-1 or 4-2

Sucks but us what it is

Still proud as hell for this program. Fuck the turds fuck the haters

[Djcat]

Not sure if Cats would have won a 7 game series with Clemson. This team has motivation issues. They can lose to SC one week and destroy them next.

If the team that beat Duke, Wisconsin and played Purdue tough shows up, yes. But too many stinkers games against so so teams to say they will.

Also, Love Pelle and Boswell been in a slump in the end of regular season. Not just scoring but defending.

[Winger]

DWWD killed Lloyd yesterday.

Start Boswell and hope he isnt a no show. Let Love shoot and hope he doesnt have one of his off shooting nights. Try to get by with repetitively forcing it into a center who is a walking TO when fouled and sent to the line. Prey Larsson doesnt have one of those games where he turns it over a bunch and makes several boneheaded defensive decisions. Run the hyper aggressive offense hoping not to turn it over a bunch and throw up a slew of bad shots. Hope the freshmen can get you back in the game if your starting lineup and initial subs put you in a hole.

I get that this is part of Lloyd’s coaching philosophy. Play free, aggressive, fast, confident and never call a TO. Maximize the number of possessions hoping the good will outweigh the bad. Fwiw I like and believe in it more than the Howland/Miller/Cronin/Bennett school, but it has its limitations.

Main thought now, and it doesnt feel good, it that I hope Lloyd has the stones to move on from a bunch of these guys. While this season was fun in a lot of ways, it was also irritating.

Hadnt thought about it until I read the board but I agree with those who felt Arizona was over-seeded and in the end my disbelief in Arizona’s metrics and lack of belief in its ability to not throw up a stinker 4 or 6 consecutive times won out.

[Djcat]

Metrics based on a weak PAC plus early season success. The 30 points easy wins over inferior teams or teams finding their ways skewed them.

No way we should be a 2 seed losing twice to WSU. Finishing the season with losses to SC and Oregon. Cats lucked into the PAC regular season title because WSU laid an egg against ASU.

[pc in NM]

I am maximally disappointed, grieving, and, honestly, not really surprised that Arizona flamed out.

After the end of the regular season, with the losses to Wazzu @ McKale, the UCLA debacle, and also, Oregon, I had revised my expectation for this team downward. And, Clemson's experienced seniors, excellent defense and clutch shooting provided exactly the formula that too often resulted in the team's performance being less than the sum of its parts.

I'm shocked by how many open shots (both perimeter and in-the-paint) that came within the flow of the offense, didn't fall - and how that messed up the psyche of all our players - most of the first half we played on our heels, and never could sustain a good half-court offense.

Credit is due, and must be given to Clemson...

... but we sure under-performed in every aspect of the game, except on the boards.

Our "A" and "B" games displayed us as one of the best teams in the country.

Our "C" games revealed a team that could not implement its own designs - and, I've never quite understood why it kept happening over-and-over!

[WildcatStunner]

I echo winger’s statement. The collapse and uncontested baskets were ridiculous, and Lloyd needs to sort this crap out