Re: HUGE WIN
Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:19 pm
ESPN was saying that it was the correct call this morningJefe wrote:
ESPN was saying that it was the correct call this morningJefe wrote:
Rawlergdeuce wrote:What was I saying about PJC in the closing minutes of games a while back? PJC has had plenty of big plays in plenty of big games these past few seasons. Sean Miller does need to find someone else to inbound the ball though.
yesbaycat93 wrote:Rawlergdeuce wrote:What was I saying about PJC in the closing minutes of games a while back? PJC has had plenty of big plays in plenty of big games these past few seasons. Sean Miller does need to find someone else to inbound the ball though.
To my untrained eye, we seem to be setting screens a whole lot less than in previous years. The motion offense is largely motionless.gumby wrote:What I notice with the offense is the absence of weak-side action. Guys coming off screens and ready to shoot. Pin downs. Cross screens on the block to free a big for an entry pass.
Seems we toss it around until someone makes a one-on-one move. Trier is often motionless until he gets the ball. Then you watch how hard someone like Klay Thompson plays without the ball. About 90 percent of his success is because he busts ass before catching the ball.
Oh no you didn't. I'm gonna have to bust out Wikipedia.Jefe wrote:Neither of those are travels and after watching the video, I dont think he traveledSpaceman Spiff wrote:I thought his left foot was planted when he catches, then he steps right/left and jumps. That's a travel. If his left foot was off the ground, and right foot is the first to hit, it's not.
You can pick the ball up like that as long as you don't dribble afterwards. Palming is only during the act of dribbling. When picking up the ball to shoot or pass, you can hold it like that while moving.Merkin wrote:^ 13 is carrying the basketball like a football before he passes it. The ball cannot be stopped while you are moving.
Not a referee, but that looks more like palming than the receiving player was travelling.
Spaceman Spiff wrote:You can pick the ball up like that as long as you don't dribble afterwards. Palming is only during the act of dribbling. When picking up the ball to shoot or pass, you can hold it like that while moving.Merkin wrote:^ 13 is carrying the basketball like a football before he passes it. The ball cannot be stopped while you are moving.
Not a referee, but that looks more like palming than the receiving player was travelling.
2nd and third takes you're right. But you are wrong on the first. You can't take two steps BEFORE you dribble. It's why so many people get called for travel after they pump fake and then go. You can take two steps after you dribble (or three if you are Trier running a fast break)SunnyAZ wrote:I don't know, once he gets possession he gets two steps. He only took two steps after catching it imo.zonagrad wrote:The travel call was obvious. I yelled, "travel" right when it happened. Davis shuffled his feet and then took three steps without a dribble. Watching it at regular speed it's obvious. And I'm not sure the foul by Ayton with 2 seconds left was legit either. When the actual foul happened, A&M's Wilson wasn't shooting. As soon as the contact was made, he gathered the ball and took the shot. But he wasn't in the act of shooting when the foul happened.
On another note, I hate the Euro step. It's a travel, plain and simple. You can't change direction to avoid a defender when you've picked up your dribble.
The Wilson 3PT attempt was close, I would lean to non-shooting foul but can see it called the other way. The initial contact is before he starts shooting but you are allowed to touch someone without that being a foul. When he actually fouls him is close.
The euro step being a travel is a bad take. You get two steps after you pick up your dribble, don't see why changing direction should have any influence whether something is a travel or not.
The player has to have control and make a football move or complete the process of the catch.Postmaster wrote:When is a catch completed?
I thought he didn't really have possession of ball right away and therefore not a travel.
You see it all of the time when guys are on perimiter and move to catch a pass.
I'd like to see that clip from when he stopped dribbling, that looked more like a travel.
Whats throwing me off is he was in motion when he caught the ball but the left foot had just gone down. To the ref that looked like the first step.Spaceman Spiff wrote:See in the NCAA portion. When a player has one foot touching the floor (in Davis's case, the left) on the catch, that foot is the pivot. He can put down his right foot and raise his left but cannot then put the left foot down or he has moved and reestablished the pivot foot.
Foot was down but it shifted a little bit when he went for the next step plus he didn't have full control of the ball. In real time and in person it looked like a travel. Slowed down is tough to overturn. Cats winSpaceman Spiff wrote:On Davis, it's all about whether you think his left foot was on the floor when he caught the ball.
Yes. If you have one foot on the ground when you catch, the only way you can pick that foot up and put it down again is a jump stop. If a single foot is on the ground when you catch, it's your pivot foot and it cannot get picked up and come down again.Jefe wrote:Whats throwing me off is he was in motion when he caught the ball but the left foot had just gone down. To the ref that looked like the first step.Spaceman Spiff wrote:See in the NCAA portion. When a player has one foot touching the floor (in Davis's case, the left) on the catch, that foot is the pivot. He can put down his right foot and raise his left but cannot then put the left foot down or he has moved and reestablished the pivot foot.
Had he been standing still on one foot, caught the ball and taken two steps, would it be travelling? Had he gone from the left foot to landing on both and jumping up it would have been legal.Foot was down but it shifted a little bit when he went for the next step plus he didn't have full control of the ball. In real time and in person it looked like a travel. Slowed down is tough to overturn. Cats winSpaceman Spiff wrote:On Davis, it's all about whether you think his left foot was on the floor when he caught the ball.
They're called offensive rotations, and I've been complaining about our lack of them since Stanley Johnson left.Chicat wrote:To my untrained eye, we seem to be setting screens a whole lot less than in previous years. The motion offense is largely motionless.gumby wrote:What I notice with the offense is the absence of weak-side action. Guys coming off screens and ready to shoot. Pin downs. Cross screens on the block to free a big for an entry pass.
Seems we toss it around until someone makes a one-on-one move. Trier is often motionless until he gets the ball. Then you watch how hard someone like Klay Thompson plays without the ball. About 90 percent of his success is because he busts ass before catching the ball.
Thanks, Spiff. I appreciate instruction. How does packline principle, at least from Miller's perspective, accommodate the act of jumping the route and poaching the pass? It's not strictly off ball if the pass is coming to your man and your man is moving toward an area outside the demarcated arc of defense (as in the example I used of A&M's faceguarding)? Stanimal used to pick off passes beyond the perimeter and get the break away jams.Spaceman Spiff wrote:The off ball pressure runs directly contrary to packline principles. We should not take that from aTm unless we're completely dismantling the packline because attempting that kills the help principles of packline.dovecanyoncat wrote:It took a great deal of effort for us to play up to our potential. A&M looked more comfortable and in rhythm, and often in the camera closeups of their guards they hardly seemed to be sweating. Effort is still key for us.
One thing we could learn from A&M's really good D: they faceguard/pressure their man all the way to the perimeter pass and always have a hand out as the ball comes in. There were 3-5 times our slow telegraphed motion passes just b-a-r-e-l-y got there. Trier and some of the Freshmen are almost nodding off with their passes.
Another thing: we talk about not having Ristic on the floor with Ayton, but how often against an opponent like this will a pass from anybody other than Ayton turn out well for Ristic?
Packline is predicated on off ball principles revolving around help D for the ballhandler. If you're within a pass's range, priority one is being attuned to shutting down penetration. Then comes recovery to your man if the pass goes there. Since a lot is predicated on controlling penetration, you want to close out with an eye toward controlling penetration. If you try to shoot the passing lane, you miss and penetration happens.dovecanyoncat wrote:Thanks, Spiff. I appreciate instruction. How does packline principle, at least from Miller's perspective, accommodate the act of jumping the route and poaching the pass? It's not strictly off ball if the pass is coming to your man and your man is moving toward an area outside the demarcated arc of defense (as in the example I used of A&M's faceguarding)? Stanimal used to pick off passes beyond the perimeter and get the break away jams.Spaceman Spiff wrote:The off ball pressure runs directly contrary to packline principles. We should not take that from aTm unless we're completely dismantling the packline because attempting that kills the help principles of packline.dovecanyoncat wrote:It took a great deal of effort for us to play up to our potential. A&M looked more comfortable and in rhythm, and often in the camera closeups of their guards they hardly seemed to be sweating. Effort is still key for us.
One thing we could learn from A&M's really good D: they faceguard/pressure their man all the way to the perimeter pass and always have a hand out as the ball comes in. There were 3-5 times our slow telegraphed motion passes just b-a-r-e-l-y got there. Trier and some of the Freshmen are almost nodding off with their passes.
Another thing: we talk about not having Ristic on the floor with Ayton, but how often against an opponent like this will a pass from anybody other than Ayton turn out well for Ristic?
I’m not Dovecanyon but I loved reading this article....very interesting and helpful. Thanks Spiff!Spaceman Spiff wrote:For Dovecanyon, I've always thought this article was a good description of the base principles of the packline in easy to understand presentation.
http://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/ ... u-beat-it/" target="_blank
Would've been shooting FTs for Ayton's hack on the arm.azcat49 wrote:Isn't Romar involved with the offense? Oh and that wasn't a travel but glad to hear the whistle. He didn't make it anyway
Exactly.. The narrative from the A&M game to me is: "We beat a potential final four team when we still weren't clicking. Without Alkins. Without Trier and Ayton having monster games. Imagine what we can do when we have Alkins and we are clicking." The toughness to win a slugfest against a tough team being the second biggest narrative. Maybe we do have big nuts, we just have to let them hang.Spaceman Spiff wrote:I seriously don't get this. As RG posted above, Texas A&M is a top 20 offensive and defensive team on KenPom. That is typically a marker of national championship level teams.gumby wrote:Almost exactly what I was going to say. That was not a high level game. It was enormously important for us, but neither team played stellar ball. Probably a combination of A&M being really good on defense and having a bad night on offense. Hogg and Trier, top scorers respectively, stunk it up. Williams did, too. Have a hard time saying A&M is better than Purdue. Reminded me of the SMU game, which was there for the taking.Chicat wrote:I can’t remember the last time I was this uninspired by a win.
It was probably going 11 minutes without a FG in the 2nd half and then some real crappy play in the final minutes which has me so meh right now. Feels like we have a long way to go.
We played better defense, but the offense was disjointed. As I said before, most teams will double Ayton, so guys have to make shots. For the most part, they didn't. Many open looks for Barcello and Trier (first half). Smith was the guy who made them pay for double teams. Ristic's buckets were courtesy of Ayton's passes. Still haven't established a consistent way of getting Ayton the ball.
We held our own on the boards. Didn't surrender many blow-bys. Made free throws (this was the difference). Still, simple tasks elude the players. Like defending inbounds under the hoop or deliberately fouling near the halfcourt line. (If that shot goes in, Ayton erases the image of Jamelle Horne).
An ugly game. Happy to have the win. But miles to go before we sleep.
Add in that the narrative before this on here was this team was soft. Well, the soft team won a slugfest against a big experienced Final Four level team. Now we're uninspired?
I agree there are areas to work on, but I see that as a testament to this team's potential. Texas A&M has arguably been the best team in on court results this year. Winning that with room to improve...we still have a high ceiling.
Thats who I was thinking.Spaceman Spiff wrote:Do I have to see that game? I wish I hadn't seen it to begin with.zonagrad wrote:A&M was committing a foul on every inbound in the last minute. That's what teams do when they're desperate. It's up to the officials to enforce the rules. A smart team will push the rules as far as they can and make the refs call something (see Illinois-AZ '05).
Maybe I'm crazy, but I sort of like Ayton inbounding in those situations. Huge, mobile and has shown good passing ability. Yes, he's young and you worry about his judgment in those situations, but all our options have downsides.
Spaceman Spiff wrote:For Dovecanyon, I've always thought this article was a good description of the base principles of the packline in easy to understand presentation.
http://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/ ... u-beat-it/" target="_blank
We're usually good there. I think the bad 3 point D is evidence of how we need to tighten up execution. We had about the same physical abilities last year and were much better.Merkin wrote:That was good, explains all the rushing at the 3 point shooters in the corner UA does.Spaceman Spiff wrote:For Dovecanyon, I've always thought this article was a good description of the base principles of the packline in easy to understand presentation.
http://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/ ... u-beat-it/" target="_blank
Of course it doesn't help that UA is 222nd is 3 pt defense: http://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-me ... eam/518/p5" target="_blank
Same, but I think you did a good job relaying the concept.Spaceman Spiff wrote:In fairness, I've read packline stuff but was never taught it myself. I played in a man system oriented to pressure and cutting off passing moreso, so I understand the A&M style more naturally.
Definitely. This is why giving up penetration, or covering backside for a few extra counts as Ristic recovers from those SSNR hedges, kills you. You cant close out to shooters in time. Plus, since we know the only way to reliably defend on threes is to prevent them from being taken all together, you can see why our 3PT D is suffering this season.Spaceman Spiff wrote:We're usually good there. I think the bad 3 point D is evidence of how we need to tighten up execution. We had about the same physical abilities last year and were much better.Merkin wrote:That was good, explains all the rushing at the 3 point shooters in the corner UA does.Spaceman Spiff wrote:For Dovecanyon, I've always thought this article was a good description of the base principles of the packline in easy to understand presentation.
http://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/ ... u-beat-it/" target="_blank
Of course it doesn't help that UA is 222nd is 3 pt defense: http://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-me ... eam/518/p5" target="_blank
That's why I posted the article breakdown. I love how it lays it out by priority level. That's always made the most sense to me. Off ball, priority level is always:TucsonClip wrote:Same, but I think you did a good job relaying the concept.Spaceman Spiff wrote:In fairness, I've read packline stuff but was never taught it myself. I played in a man system oriented to pressure and cutting off passing moreso, so I understand the A&M style more naturally.
I did a breakdown elsewhere, but in the packline you dont want to deny passing lanes, you always want to be sitting help side, and in the pack line that means protecting the paint. Randolph has issues with this, as he has been caught multiple times denying his man a pass off the ball. That is a no-no. The ball pressure is applied, and everyone is there sitting help to protect the middle.
So in the case of jumping passing lanes, or leaping for blocks, you are breaking down the help side D/ball pressure. Miller wants his guys sitting help, closing out, and recovering help side.
Al Franken quit for less than that!Spaceman Spiff wrote: 1. Correct position to cut off penetration.
2. Good position to close out to your man (either assigned or in rotation) without giving up a clean look or penetration.
3. Passing lanes.
Think of packline like Mike Pence. Unless you're married to who you're guarding, there should be zero penetration.Merkin wrote:Al Franken quit for less than that!Spaceman Spiff wrote: 1. Correct position to cut off penetration.
2. Good position to close out to your man (either assigned or in rotation) without giving up a clean look or penetration.
3. Passing lanes.
I think Akot is dinged, but there isn't a lot of room right now with Rawle back (hope that isn't disrespecting Akot for attention). Smith...I know he hit a few big shots early vs TAMU, but he also threw what can only be called interceptions, just right in the gut passes to the defender like he didn't see them...he turned the ball over in Phoenix pretty regularly, then in that one minute in tonight's game, he runs up and tries to throw a flat angle post past with the little wraparound spin like rec ball and threw it right into the gut of the defender. It was his last play, and, honestly, I don't know how he finds his way back much if ever. Smith and Barcello are the most impacted by Rawle's return, if Akot's issue is injury (if not, then Akot is the most impacted from expectations to current PT situation). Alex will still get some PG back up in small minutes, and might be used as a 3 point option late in a game. But with Randolph really picking it back up toward a level we heard he was capable of following the concussion and the time and timing missed by sitting out waiting to be cleared, and Rawle being back and already looking pretty in control (other than the corner 3), and Zo looking as controlled and deadly as he has all year with that combination...wing minutes are not a need.zonagrad wrote:Akot and Smith combine to play ONE MINUTE tonight. ONE!! Smith was a key contributor and leading scorer against A&M. Against Alabama he plays one minute. Pinder played four minutes and was a non entity.
simple to call with that in consideration.dcZONAfan wrote:2nd and third takes you're right. But you are wrong on the first. You can't take two steps BEFORE you dribble. It's why so many people get called for travel after they pump fake and then go. You can take two steps after you dribble (or three if you are Trier running a fast break)SunnyAZ wrote:I don't know, once he gets possession he gets two steps. He only took two steps after catching it imo.zonagrad wrote:The travel call was obvious. I yelled, "travel" right when it happened. Davis shuffled his feet and then took three steps without a dribble. Watching it at regular speed it's obvious. And I'm not sure the foul by Ayton with 2 seconds left was legit either. When the actual foul happened, A&M's Wilson wasn't shooting. As soon as the contact was made, he gathered the ball and took the shot. But he wasn't in the act of shooting when the foul happened.
On another note, I hate the Euro step. It's a travel, plain and simple. You can't change direction to avoid a defender when you've picked up your dribble.
The Wilson 3PT attempt was close, I would lean to non-shooting foul but can see it called the other way. The initial contact is before he starts shooting but you are allowed to touch someone without that being a foul. When he actually fouls him is close.
The euro step being a travel is a bad take. You get two steps after you pick up your dribble, don't see why changing direction should have any influence whether something is a travel or not.
Thanks for the link, Spiff, and thanks for the discussion, Clip, it explains a lot, especially the off ball priorities. Against mature teams with good passers/ball movement my stomach acid rises late in the shot clock as our guys race to keep up and close out. Knowing that that condition is an intrinsic design of the packline will help.Spaceman Spiff wrote:That's why I posted the article breakdown. I love how it lays it out by priority level. That's always made the most sense to me. Off ball, priority level is always:TucsonClip wrote:Same, but I think you did a good job relaying the concept.Spaceman Spiff wrote:In fairness, I've read packline stuff but was never taught it myself. I played in a man system oriented to pressure and cutting off passing moreso, so I understand the A&M style more naturally.
I did a breakdown elsewhere, but in the packline you dont want to deny passing lanes, you always want to be sitting help side, and in the pack line that means protecting the paint. Randolph has issues with this, as he has been caught multiple times denying his man a pass off the ball. That is a no-no. The ball pressure is applied, and everyone is there sitting help to protect the middle.
So in the case of jumping passing lanes, or leaping for blocks, you are breaking down the help side D/ball pressure. Miller wants his guys sitting help, closing out, and recovering help side.
1. Correct position to cut off penetration.
2. Good position to close out to your man (either assigned or in rotation) without giving up a clean look or penetration.
3. Passing lanes.
You can pick passes, but it should be because priorities 1 and 2 are executed and that leaves you in a passing lane due to the offensive positioning. Executing help position plus staying in recovery range are ALWAYS paramount. The rest has to sort itself out.
Do it right and you get a bunch of east/west movement by the offense without getting close to the rim. This year, we've been ok with the offense's first thrust but once they get us recovering and rotating, we get gashed too easily.