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I would not sleep on Stanford.Beachcat97 wrote:I'm hearing USC.ChooChooCat wrote:Sounding more and more like he's not leaving California.NickyBCats wrote:How we looking with Zaire?
Really? Wow. Must be a halfway decent student. Good for him, if true.ChooChooCat wrote:I would not sleep on Stanford.Beachcat97 wrote:I'm hearing USC.ChooChooCat wrote:Sounding more and more like he's not leaving California.NickyBCats wrote:How we looking with Zaire?
Will go before any of our Freshman.Beachcat97 wrote:https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/289 ... -nba-draft
Sophomore year is for LOSERS! #oneanddonelife
I am more than ready for one-and-done to be done. Minimum 2 year commitment would be good.Beachcat97 wrote:Anyone else ready to let the Nicos of the world start going to the NBA out of HS again? If they want to be a college athlete, make their scholarship conditional upon maintaining enrollment and academic eligibility for two full years.
End the one and done era. Please. College hoops does not need Zion Williamson in order to survive.
2 years is reasonable, right? Many students can complete their entire general ed requirement in 2 years or shorter. It's often shorter these days given the kinds of "middle college" programs and college credit courses/exams available to HS students.BBQ wildcat wrote:I am more than ready for one-and-done to be done. Minimum 2 year commitment would be good.Beachcat97 wrote:Anyone else ready to let the Nicos of the world start going to the NBA out of HS again? If they want to be a college athlete, make their scholarship conditional upon maintaining enrollment and academic eligibility for two full years.
End the one and done era. Please. College hoops does not need Zion Williamson in order to survive.
Not recently. He has continued to land OAD players, but not enough of them and his rosters have become fragmented, inexperienced, and thin.Beachcat97 wrote:Miller didn't create OAD culture. He's just assimilated to it.goslingswagg wrote:We need to get out of the OnD business. It's not Miller's forte. Some coaches are good with those kids, some aren't, I think we've found that Miller does not succeed with high roster turnover.ChooChooCat wrote:I mean the only reason we landed Akinjo was because it was agreed upon from the start that Nico was not staying for a second year.Beachcat97 wrote:I think there's now a pretty deeply rooted "culture" of OAD in place in college hoops. That is, the practice of using college as a glorified pro tryout has gone on for years, and it's genuinely surprising when a high-level player deviates from this practice. Guys who arrive as McD'sAAs or just as projected lotto picks seem to almost be going through the motions. Does anyone really think Nico (not picking on Nico; he's just a convenient example) has had a single conversation about playing a second year at AZ? I don't think that's me being cynical. Think it's reality. This is why even in a fucking pandemic, the culture of OAD holds sway. If you're a projected lotto pick, you do your six months of college and then you declare for the draft. Period. Anyone who stays in school is not only an outlier but is somehow perceived as not being good enough to be OAD. It's very fucked up.
Yeah. There'd need to be some kind of penalty in place for a situation where a guy reneges on his two-year commitment. Like, maybe he has to pay back the university? That is, finish two years, it's on us. If you don't, it's on you. Would that work?Merkin wrote:2 years won't work, even if the NBA and NCAA make an agreement, since the player can just go overseas and play if he decides he really doesn't like college.
Next year could be worse. On paper there is enough talent to be competitive, but who knows if it happens. The post-bonus FBI wiretap/Ayton season theoretically should have been viable because while the team lost a recruiting class, it returned a number of 4 and 5 star players, none of which played at that level. The same thing could happen next year -- a thinner roster, but one with a number of highly rated players that underachieve. One suspects if Ziare stays in California and next season's team finishes at .500 or slightly above, the school will part ways with Miller. Will AZ once again become a resurrected program and come storming back, or turn into Indiana? The next hire will be crucial.SCCats wrote:Top 25 and 1 for next year.goslingswagg wrote:Gonna need to pull a rabbit out of the hat for next year to be a decent season I’m afraid...yikes for the Miller fans out there.ChooChooCat wrote:Sounding more and more like he's not leaving California.NickyBCats wrote:How we looking with Zaire?
We aren’t on it.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-baske ... -25-and-1/" target="_blank
Next year probably looks fairly similar to this year record/results wise. I assume that will cause us to part ways with Sean. So we wait.
Thus it's a NAD = None and DoneAlieberman wrote:You can't be a 1 and done until you finish your 1 season. None of our freshmen completed a single season.
This year basically didn't happen.
They need to all be required to come back.
There's this idea that players who stay longer in college are somehow weaker prospects, that they weren't good enough to be OAD. I'm not sure which drives this perception more, the players themselves or NBA scouts. I'm inclined to think the former because NBA scouts get paid to evaluate talent, not to downgrade their assessment of a player based on how old he is or how long he stayed in college.SCCats wrote:He destroyed his NBA career by staying for three years.
-some people
Scheer said on the radio it's between Stanford and Arizona.ChooChooCat wrote:I would not sleep on Stanford.Beachcat97 wrote:I'm hearing USC.ChooChooCat wrote:Sounding more and more like he's not leaving California.NickyBCats wrote:How we looking with Zaire?
If you think you’re a OAD or maybe 2 years at most in college, why would you bother with Stanford?Irish27 wrote:Scheer said on the radio it's between Stanford and Arizona.ChooChooCat wrote:I would not sleep on Stanford.Beachcat97 wrote:I'm hearing USC.ChooChooCat wrote:Sounding more and more like he's not leaving California.NickyBCats wrote:How we looking with Zaire?
zonagrad wrote:
If you think you’re a OAD or maybe 2 years at most in college, why would you bother with Stanford?
Can I just say I'll never understand why anybody would go anywhere but the University of Arizona for any reason whatsoever? I swear I'm not lying, but I've spent a lot of time on a lot of college campuses, and it really is the U of A and everybody else.zonagrad wrote: If you think you’re a OAD or maybe 2 years at most in college, why would you bother with Stanford?
Nico’s stock took a hit during the last month or so of the season. He’s been falling in mock drafts.97cats wrote:1. Anthony Edwards
2. LaMello Ball
3. James Wiseman
4. Isaac Okoro
5. Deni Avdija
6. Onyeka Okongwu
7. Tyrese Haliburton
8. Tyrese Maxey
9. Obi Toppin
10. Killian Hayes
https://247sports.com/college/arizona/A ... O4YrcmarfY" target="_blankBeachcat97 wrote:Nico’s stock took a hit during the last month or so of the season. He’s been falling in mock drafts.97cats wrote:1. Anthony Edwards
2. LaMello Ball
3. James Wiseman
4. Isaac Okoro
5. Deni Avdija
6. Onyeka Okongwu
7. Tyrese Haliburton
8. Tyrese Maxey
9. Obi Toppin
10. Killian Hayes
I love Anthony Edwards. Was great in Revenge of the Nerds and Top Gun.97cats wrote:1. Anthony Edwards
2. LaMello Ball
3. James Wiseman
4. Isaac Okoro
5. Deni Avdija
6. Onyeka Okongwu
7. Tyrese Haliburton
8. Tyrese Maxey
9. Obi Toppin
10. Killian Hayes
Don't forget ER as he was the best doctor around...Alieberman wrote:I love Anthony Edwards. Was great in Revenge of the Nerds and Top Gun.97cats wrote:1. Anthony Edwards
2. LaMello Ball
3. James Wiseman
4. Isaac Okoro
5. Deni Avdija
6. Onyeka Okongwu
7. Tyrese Haliburton
8. Tyrese Maxey
9. Obi Toppin
10. Killian Hayes
But who are the rest of these jokers?
We could use someone like that on our roster. He could put us on a ventilator.MountainCat wrote:Don't forget ER as he was the best doctor around...Alieberman wrote:I love Anthony Edwards. Was great in Revenge of the Nerds and Top Gun.97cats wrote:1. Anthony Edwards
2. LaMello Ball
3. James Wiseman
4. Isaac Okoro
5. Deni Avdija
6. Onyeka Okongwu
7. Tyrese Haliburton
8. Tyrese Maxey
9. Obi Toppin
10. Killian Hayes
But who are the rest of these jokers?
I mean, Lonzo Ball was a MUCH better freshman than Nico, and it’s taken him a few years (and a trade to a different team) to find his NBA footing. I have a hard time envisioning Nico being as good a PG as Ball at the next level.UAEebs86 wrote:What I got from the article: He makes up for his lack of defensive athleticism by being a poor shooter.
Lonzo is taller, also has a +3" wingspan, while Nico is shorter and has a -0.5" wingspan. Those are defects that cannot be cured although TJ did OK with being shorter and T Rex arms.Beachcat97 wrote:I mean, Lonzo Ball was a MUCH better freshman than Nico, and it’s taken him a few years (and a trade to a different team) to find his NBA footing. I have a hard time envisioning Nico being as good a PG as Ball at the next level.UAEebs86 wrote:What I got from the article: He makes up for his lack of defensive athleticism by being a poor shooter.
TJ was able to hit the ground running since he was a grown man when he entered the league. If I am a team selecting late in the 1st round I am calling Pritchard before I am taking the risk on Nico. The ceiling is not that high and the floor is a bust. Sucks that apparently 3 years in the NBA now is worth more than multiple years at Arizona followed by multiple years in the NBA. I get that playing for Miller is probably a drain and is unbearable for multiple years, but there are a lot of bad life choices being made lately with the race to the NBA mentality.Merkin wrote:Lonzo is taller, also has a +3" wingspan, while Nico is shorter and has a -0.5" wingspan. Those are defects that cannot be cured although TJ did OK with being shorter and T Rex arms.Beachcat97 wrote:I mean, Lonzo Ball was a MUCH better freshman than Nico, and it’s taken him a few years (and a trade to a different team) to find his NBA footing. I have a hard time envisioning Nico being as good a PG as Ball at the next level.UAEebs86 wrote:What I got from the article: He makes up for his lack of defensive athleticism by being a poor shooter.
This issue goes way beyond Miller. Miller takes these guys knowing what the deal is. There's no secrets or anything unexpected here. Zeke Nnaji came to Arizona because he had full intentions of being a one and done and he knew the PT was guaranteed here. Nico and Josh made their intentions clear as well and Miller knew it. They could love playing for Sean Miller and it wouldn't matter one bit.gronk4heisman wrote:TJ was able to hit the ground running since he was a grown man when he entered the league. If I am a team selecting late in the 1st round I am calling Pritchard before I am taking the risk on Nico. The ceiling is not that high and the floor is a bust. Sucks that apparently 3 years in the NBA now is worth more than multiple years at Arizona followed by multiple years in the NBA. I get that playing for Miller is probably a drain and is unbearable for multiple years, but there are a lot of bad life choices being made lately with the race to the NBA mentality.Merkin wrote:Lonzo is taller, also has a +3" wingspan, while Nico is shorter and has a -0.5" wingspan. Those are defects that cannot be cured although TJ did OK with being shorter and T Rex arms.Beachcat97 wrote:I mean, Lonzo Ball was a MUCH better freshman than Nico, and it’s taken him a few years (and a trade to a different team) to find his NBA footing. I have a hard time envisioning Nico being as good a PG as Ball at the next level.UAEebs86 wrote:What I got from the article: He makes up for his lack of defensive athleticism by being a poor shooter.
Lonzo and Nico are different style point guards.Merkin wrote:Lonzo is taller, also has a +3" wingspan, while Nico is shorter and has a -0.5" wingspan. Those are defects that cannot be cured although TJ did OK with being shorter and T Rex arms.Beachcat97 wrote:I mean, Lonzo Ball was a MUCH better freshman than Nico, and it’s taken him a few years (and a trade to a different team) to find his NBA footing. I have a hard time envisioning Nico being as good a PG as Ball at the next level.UAEebs86 wrote:What I got from the article: He makes up for his lack of defensive athleticism by being a poor shooter.
So Choo, is it your understanding then that we will be taking 5(!!!) transfers to fill out the roster?ChooChooCat wrote:
This issue goes way beyond Miller. Miller takes these guys knowing what the deal is. There's no secrets or anything unexpected here. Zeke Nnaji came to Arizona because he had full intentions of being a one and done and he knew the PT was guaranteed here. Nico and Josh made their intentions clear as well and Miller knew it. They could love playing for Sean Miller and it wouldn't matter one bit.
Depends on what happens with Ziaire and Kerwin Walton. We will take numerous transfers though regardless.gronk4heisman wrote:So Choo, is it your understanding then that we will be taking 5(!!!) transfers to fill out the roster?ChooChooCat wrote:
This issue goes way beyond Miller. Miller takes these guys knowing what the deal is. There's no secrets or anything unexpected here. Zeke Nnaji came to Arizona because he had full intentions of being a one and done and he knew the PT was guaranteed here. Nico and Josh made their intentions clear as well and Miller knew it. They could love playing for Sean Miller and it wouldn't matter one bit.
Adding 6+ freshmen in the 50-150 range means we have two years of really shitty results. Neither Miller nor the fan base have the patience for that.Alieberman wrote:Loading up on transfers year after year is a fucking joke that produces zero results.
Glad we're still using this model looking for different results!
Works for Altman.Alieberman wrote:Loading up on transfers year after year is a fucking joke that produces zero results.
Glad we're still using this model looking for different results!
Which is why we probably need a change of leadership: neither of the avenues available to Miller will work for him.Chicat wrote:Adding 6+ freshmen in the 50-150 range means we have two years of really shitty results. Neither Miller nor the fan base have the patience for that.Alieberman wrote:Loading up on transfers year after year is a fucking joke that produces zero results.
Glad we're still using this model looking for different results!
From Chance Comanche, Justin Simon, Craig Victor, Angelo Chol, Emmanuel Akot, to even Nick Johnson, early departures and transfers have been a major problem (not counting significant injuries to Ray Smith and Brandon Williams). Not that some of those types of players were ever going to be stars, but had they developed into 3 or 4 year players, it would have been beneficial to the rosters. Losing Comanche after just two years, when he was developing into a legitimate player, or having Nick Johnson leave the program prematurely (he was not a great NBA prospect and could have had a national level senior year), or having a guard like Justin Simon leave after one year, are big roster problems when coupled with losing the scoring and presence of a great OAD player. Arizona's rosters theoretically should be able to withstand the loss of a OAD player, but other important pieces are leaving prematurely. As it presently stands, this program is very far away from competing for a national championship.EVCat wrote:While this year may be a OAD-heavy roster for us, I don't really know what opportunity Miller had to finesse a roster coming off of the shitstorm of last year. This was no time to say "sorry, guys...I want some 100+ rated players to fill this roster out. I can't have 3 OADs, even though I have to be seeing into the future to know Zeke would reach his goal to be OAD."
One of the enduring myths, to me, is this idea that we have been a OAD-laden team that can't get consistency because we constantly have freshmen staying for a season and leaving. The 2018 team that started the season #2 and fell apart...we can talk PG play and that is legit, but that was not a youth-filled team. It more closely resembled mid-majors, with 2 seniors, a junior, and a sophomore starting with the OAD. The year before was younger, and made the 2nd weekend with, again, one OAD.
The Miller rosters have not been loaded with OADs. And, in the context of how people talk about him recruiting them like they come in with a tag on their head that says OAD, and in the idea that a roster can be finessed, Miller has not loaded up with OADs like a Kentucky or Duke, with massive turnover every season. There is the absurd (Jerrett) and the one that was not based on actual play (Simmons)...but even including them as clear OADs doesn't change the fact that we have generally had zero to 1 OAD.
2010 - none
2011 - none (one 2 and one that came from out of nowhere, otherwise, that was an older team)
2012 - Josiah Turner may have been one if he wasn't a dumbass. But none.
2013 - Grant Jerrett (can blame God for that one, I guess. Not a traditional OAD that we recruited as such)
2014 - Aaron Gordon, the first clear OAD we added to a roster. The lone OAD in this season, a successful one.
2015 - Stanley Johnson, a clear OAD. The loan OAD in this season, a successful one that added three 4-year players
2016 - None. Maybe we needed some...this season sucked, and the prior 3 were much more successful with a OAD.
2017 - Lauri Markkanen, Kobi Simmons. The lone multiple year, and Simmons was a questionable one, but he was a OAD.
2018 - Deandre Ayton. A clear OAD. But maybe our biggest single season failure came with 14 years experience in our starting 5, so maybe we should avoid teams with seniors?
2019 - Fucking disaster from ESPN/FBI blowback.
2020 - We may have 3. That would be a first. But we weren't, again, in a position to finesse rosters. We would have taken anyone...instead, we took 2 top 10 players, and a top 50 player, along with a multiyear player in Koloko.
I just don't see, first, where we can select our rosters to remain nationally competitive with some formula that suggests we should avoid top players in search of the 4 year development project. We don't pick them off a shelf...we have to recruit for 2 or 3 years, get in a player's good graces, and be loyal when, if they are a late bloomer, they were not as good, or have always been there for their successes. We don't enter the name into a computer and automatically add them to the roster. And, second, even if we had some magic ability to do that, our mix has been pretty much perfect until this year, when we really didn't have a choice.
I see way too much how we are gutted by OAD-dominated teams, and that just isn't the truth.
This.zonagrad wrote:Great posts everyone!!!!
It's not so much the Gordon, Ayton and Markannen OAD that hurt the program. It's the early departures of guys who have no business turning pro like Kobi Simmons, Rawle Alkins, Grant Jerrett, Brandon Ashley, Chance Comanche and Nick Johnson. None of these players made any type of noise by going pro early.
But had they stayed -- they would've made an enormous difference for Arizona in the seasons they missed:
If Grant Jerrett stays? Arizona absorbs the injury to Brandon Ashley and arguably makes the Final Four in 2014. As for 2015 with Jerrett -- another scorer for a team that lacked offensive punch.
If Ashley stays? 2016 might be less of a disappointing season. Instead we get Mark Tollefsen. No comparison.
If Kobi Simmons stays just one more year -- Arizona has a much better ball handler, scorer and finisher than PJC. Simmons wasn't even a starter by the end of 2017 and yet he stayed just one year. How much better of a player would he be had he stayed in school another 2-3 years instead of jumping to the D-League where it's essentially an extension of AAU ball?
Chance Comanche? If he stays -- Arizona's front court with Markannen and then Ayton becomes so much more dynamic in '17 & '18.
The early departures of these players is the real head scratcher? Arizona seems to be hit harder than other programs when it comes to guys leaving early who are not clear NBA prospects. It kills continuity of the program. Instead of a team that is mature and seasoned, Arizona is always starting over with players who are talented enough to win games during the course of the regular season but lack the toughness and experience required to win in March.
It's a no brainer recruiting guys like Lauri, Aaron and D'Andre. You take them every time. But does Miller have a crystal ball for guys like Simmons, Ayton, Jerrett, etc.. who have NBA aspirations and hope to leave early even when it's clear they shouldn't.
Arizona would be a much different program had they stuck around even for one more year.