lets talk '16

[dcZONAfan]

We have 3 guys who can play the 5 (LM, DR, CC) and 3 guys who can play the 4 (LM, JJ, RS). We're fine.

This also assumes we don't land that Aussie post player who's visiting next month. If we land him then we probably won't even have minutes for him.

Both JJ and Smith are true 3's. If we don't need to make them play the 4, so much the better for the program and for them (they both have a pro future at the 3).

I thought JJ is a true 2 that just happens to be 6'7"?

Not that it really matters, but everything I've heard has him being a 2 in the league. 3 for our purposes of course, which might be what you are referring to without considering NBA position.

[DiehardDave37]

So what's the latest thinking on our overall needs for the '16 Class? We have LM, want / need JJ. How many do you think we end up with in this class?

Until today, I wanted the best PG with some size that we could get for the scout team and insurance. After seeing that 97cats has Simon beating PJC out next year, not as much.

I still want the big Aussie who is visiting in Jan.

So LM, JJ, Aussie and a big PG if we have the room would make me happy.

[Spaceman Spiff]

We have 3 guys who can play the 5 (LM, DR, CC) and 3 guys who can play the 4 (LM, JJ, RS). We're fine.

This also assumes we don't land that Aussie post player who's visiting next month. If we land him then we probably won't even have minutes for him.

Both JJ and Smith are true 3's. If we don't need to make them play the 4, so much the better for the program and for them (they both have a pro future at the 3).

I thought JJ is a true 2 that just happens to be 6'7"?

Not that it really matters, but everything I've heard has him being a 2 in the league. 3 for our purposes of course, which might be what you are referring to without considering NBA position.

I was thinking college. I don't doubt he could be a 2 in college, but if we have Trier back, I would expect we let Trier get the big minutes at the 2 and let JJ and Ray operate mainly from the 3.

In the NBA, I see JJ similarly. The Wiggins comparison is legit, and it's easy to toggle those guys between 2 and 3. Where he winds up is probably a function of whoever else that team has. If they have a natural 3, they play him at the 2 or vice versa. Have neither locked down, just let him play.

At the college level, he is pretty much a prototype 3 in terms of length and athleticism.

[Spaceman Spiff]

What is your definition of a true college power forward? Bennett Davison, Rick Anderson, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson, Jesse Perry, etc., have played the 4 plenty for successful Arizona teams. True college power forwards are different than true NBA power forwards. Jackson and Smith make us 3 deep at the position.

You can absolutely play smaller guys at the 4 in college. But why? If we land a solid backup 4, we are 2 deep across the board and JJ and Ray get to play a natural position.

In terms of your point about 3's playing 4, yeah, it has happened. It is not ideal. My post was about my wish list, not about what I think we can do if need be. Frankly, it isn't hard to have a 3 man rotation in Ristic/LM/CC. Ristic gets 30, the other two get 25, case closed.

The ideal is to have people play their natural positions and have failsafes. The 4/5 is a place it would be nice to have a failsafe.

[ChooChooCat]

Yeah, but what you're advocating for is bringing in a 1 year rental at the 4 spot who will steal minutes from Jackson and Smith if he actually was able to play. Quite frankly that's not going to fly and the more Jackson/Smith are on the court whether at the 3 or 4 the better. Next year with Jackson we'd have 5 guys that are 6'8 or over. That's a luxury by college basketball standards. We live in a world where Justise Winslow was the starting 4 of the national champions last year and that team had much less depth in the post than our team last year, this year, and next year.

[ChooChooCat]

We have 3 guys who can play the 5 (LM, DR, CC) and 3 guys who can play the 4 (LM, JJ, RS). We're fine.

This also assumes we don't land that Aussie post player who's visiting next month. If we land him then we probably won't even have minutes for him.

Both JJ and Smith are true 3's. If we don't need to make them play the 4, so much the better for the program and for them (they both have a pro future at the 3).

I thought JJ is a true 2 that just happens to be 6'7"?

Not that it really matters, but everything I've heard has him being a 2 in the league. 3 for our purposes of course, which might be what you are referring to without considering NBA position.

What's the difference between a 2 and 3 outside of size honestly?

[Spaceman Spiff]

Yeah, but what you're advocating for is bringing in a 1 year rental at the 4 spot who will steal minutes from Jackson and Smith if he actually was able to play. Quite frankly that's not going to fly and the more Jackson/Smith are on the court whether at the 3 or 4 the better. Next year with Jackson we'd have 5 guys that are 6'8 or over. That's a luxury by college basketball standards. We live in a world where Justise Winslow was the starting 4 of the national champions last year and that team had much less depth in the post than our team last year, this year, and next year.

Not really. LM will be in his first year of US and college ball. Chance will be stepping up the minutes. This is insurance that LM and Chance are ready for their new roles, and the reality is that if JJ and Smith are that good, they will play. A backup 4 is not going to steal minutes from either if they are playing like the big time players they are.

Right now, we need Dusan, LM and Chance to hit the ground running. Another big would ease that. That's why the rental idea is nice. He steps in as a finished product and if the young guys pass him up, hey, it's a competitive world.

[ChooChooCat]

Yeah, but what you're advocating for is bringing in a 1 year rental at the 4 spot who will steal minutes from Jackson and Smith if he actually was able to play. Quite frankly that's not going to fly and the more Jackson/Smith are on the court whether at the 3 or 4 the better. Next year with Jackson we'd have 5 guys that are 6'8 or over. That's a luxury by college basketball standards. We live in a world where Justise Winslow was the starting 4 of the national champions last year and that team had much less depth in the post than our team last year, this year, and next year.

Not really. LM will be in his first year of US and college ball. Chance will be stepping up the minutes. This is insurance that LM and Chance are ready for their new roles, and the reality is that if JJ and Smith are that good, they will play. A backup 4 is not going to steal minutes from either if they are playing like the big time players they are.

Right now, we need Dusan, LM and Chance to hit the ground running. Another big would ease that. That's why the rental idea is nice. He steps in as a finished product and if the young guys pass him up, hey, it's a competitive world.

Go ahead and name off previous grad transfers good enough to be ahead of 3 players with NBA ceilings like Ristic, Lauri, and Comanche. Play and take care of your current damn players. I can get on board with Froling because he has 4-5 years, but a grad transfer would only exist to piss off your current players and steal minutes from them.

No thanks.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Yeah, but what you're advocating for is bringing in a 1 year rental at the 4 spot who will steal minutes from Jackson and Smith if he actually was able to play. Quite frankly that's not going to fly and the more Jackson/Smith are on the court whether at the 3 or 4 the better. Next year with Jackson we'd have 5 guys that are 6'8 or over. That's a luxury by college basketball standards. We live in a world where Justise Winslow was the starting 4 of the national champions last year and that team had much less depth in the post than our team last year, this year, and next year.

Not really. LM will be in his first year of US and college ball. Chance will be stepping up the minutes. This is insurance that LM and Chance are ready for their new roles, and the reality is that if JJ and Smith are that good, they will play. A backup 4 is not going to steal minutes from either if they are playing like the big time players they are.

Right now, we need Dusan, LM and Chance to hit the ground running. Another big would ease that. That's why the rental idea is nice. He steps in as a finished product and if the young guys pass him up, hey, it's a competitive world.

Go ahead and name off previous grad transfers good enough to be ahead of 3 players with NBA ceilings like Ristic, Lauri, and Comanche. Play and take care of your current damn players. I can get on board with Froling because he has 4-5 years, but a grad transfer would only exist to piss off your current players and steal minutes from them.

No thanks.

I like Lauri, Chance and Dusan, but the only one who has performed in the role expected of him next year is Dusan in Zeus's absence, and even there, not at the minute load we will expect next year.

I'm a plan for the worst, hope for the best, guy. As much as I like our current 3, players do not always progress as you think they will (Mayes, Kyryl). I would love it if all 3 were 100% and we could just let the dogs out. I am not ready to count those chickens.

[ChooChooCat]

Develop the deep amount of talent you have. If a Korcheck type wants to come in awesome, but you don't go out of your way to hurt team's chemistry before practices even start. To me the depth at PG is much more of a concern than either post position solely due to the fact that PJC has not developed. It's still early for that of course. I'm much more in favor of using any remaining scholarships post-Jackson and maybe Froling on a traditional sit a year transfer or two.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Develop the deep amount of talent you have. If a Korcheck type wants to come in awesome, but you don't go out of your way to hurt team's chemistry before practices even start. To me the depth at PG is much more of a concern than either post position solely due to the fact that PJC has not developed. It's still early for that of course. I'm much more in favor of using any remaining scholarships post-Jackson and maybe Froling on a traditional sit a year transfer or two.

Name me the best coach in CBB and I will name you the players he had that didn't develop. It does not always go according to plan.

Whether we can find a guy who is willing to accept a more limited role or competition is another matter. Does Grant Jerrett have eligibility left?

[Chicat]

Develop the deep amount of talent you have. If a Korcheck type wants to come in awesome, but you don't go out of your way to hurt team's chemistry before practices even start. To me the depth at PG is much more of a concern than either post position solely due to the fact that PJC has not developed. It's still early for that of course. I'm much more in favor of using any remaining scholarships post-Jackson and maybe Froling on a traditional sit a year transfer or two.

But, hypothetically, wouldn't recruiting over an upperclassman PJC also potentially hurt team chemistry?

I think you take all the talent you can get and let it sort itself out. If someone doesn't want to compete for playing time, or can't, then it makes decisions easier.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Develop the deep amount of talent you have. If a Korcheck type wants to come in awesome, but you don't go out of your way to hurt team's chemistry before practices even start. To me the depth at PG is much more of a concern than either post position solely due to the fact that PJC has not developed. It's still early for that of course. I'm much more in favor of using any remaining scholarships post-Jackson and maybe Froling on a traditional sit a year transfer or two.

But, hypothetically, wouldn't recruiting over an upperclassman PJC also potentially hurt team chemistry?

I think you take all the talent you can get and let it sort itself out. If someone doesn't want to compete for playing time, or can't, then it makes decisions easier.

That is what we do. I referenced Jerrett bc he and Gordon were the embodiment of the idea that Miller brings in talent and guys are expected to compete. If you can't handle that, you are not long for Arizona.

[DiehardDave37]

Yeah, but what you're advocating for is bringing in a 1 year rental at the 4 spot who will steal minutes from Jackson and Smith if he actually was able to play. Quite frankly that's not going to fly and the more Jackson/Smith are on the court whether at the 3 or 4 the better. Next year with Jackson we'd have 5 guys that are 6'8 or over. That's a luxury by college basketball standards. We live in a world where Justise Winslow was the starting 4 of the national champions last year and that team had much less depth in the post than our team last year, this year, and next year.

Not really. LM will be in his first year of US and college ball. Chance will be stepping up the minutes. This is insurance that LM and Chance are ready for their new roles, and the reality is that if JJ and Smith are that good, they will play. A backup 4 is not going to steal minutes from either if they are playing like the big time players they are.

Right now, we need Dusan, LM and Chance to hit the ground running. Another big would ease that. That's why the rental idea is nice. He steps in as a finished product and if the young guys pass him up, hey, it's a competitive world.

Go ahead and name off previous grad transfers good enough to be ahead of 3 players with NBA ceilings like Ristic, Lauri, and Comanche. Play and take care of your current damn players. I can get on board with Froling because he has 4-5 years, but a grad transfer would only exist to piss off your current players and steal minutes from them.

No thanks.

Agreed, I'd like the Aussie and a big pg frosh or juco who could start out as a potential red-shirt and finish that way if no one gets injured. I, also, don't see a grad transfer helping the chemistry of that team.

[ChooChooCat]

Develop the deep amount of talent you have. If a Korcheck type wants to come in awesome, but you don't go out of your way to hurt team's chemistry before practices even start. To me the depth at PG is much more of a concern than either post position solely due to the fact that PJC has not developed. It's still early for that of course. I'm much more in favor of using any remaining scholarships post-Jackson and maybe Froling on a traditional sit a year transfer or two.

But, hypothetically, wouldn't recruiting over an upperclassman PJC also potentially hurt team chemistry?

I think you take all the talent you can get and let it sort itself out. If someone doesn't want to compete for playing time, or can't, then it makes decisions easier.

PJC likely leaves in that scenario and chemistry is upheld. I did mention a caveat that it's early still and Parker has the rest of the year to prove his worth, but his lack of development in his second year has been a bit concerning. Meanwhile the other 3 guys mentioned (Ristic, Comanche, Lauri) have either shown development (Ristic), shown promise (Comanche), and is a perceived possible one and done by scouts (Lauri). Different scenarios all around.

[ChooChooCat]

Develop the deep amount of talent you have. If a Korcheck type wants to come in awesome, but you don't go out of your way to hurt team's chemistry before practices even start. To me the depth at PG is much more of a concern than either post position solely due to the fact that PJC has not developed. It's still early for that of course. I'm much more in favor of using any remaining scholarships post-Jackson and maybe Froling on a traditional sit a year transfer or two.

But, hypothetically, wouldn't recruiting over an upperclassman PJC also potentially hurt team chemistry?

I think you take all the talent you can get and let it sort itself out. If someone doesn't want to compete for playing time, or can't, then it makes decisions easier.

That is what we do. I referenced Jerrett bc he and Gordon were the embodiment of the idea that Miller brings in talent and guys are expected to compete. If you can't handle that, you are not long for Arizona.

Gordon wasn't the predominant issue for Jerrett. Recruiting Zeus was. That's why you never see a team recruit 3 5 star post players in the same class before we did not after....unless that team is coached by Calipari who is exempt from all rules in recruiting and roster management.

[ChooChooCat]

Yeah, but what you're advocating for is bringing in a 1 year rental at the 4 spot who will steal minutes from Jackson and Smith if he actually was able to play. Quite frankly that's not going to fly and the more Jackson/Smith are on the court whether at the 3 or 4 the better. Next year with Jackson we'd have 5 guys that are 6'8 or over. That's a luxury by college basketball standards. We live in a world where Justise Winslow was the starting 4 of the national champions last year and that team had much less depth in the post than our team last year, this year, and next year.

Not really. LM will be in his first year of US and college ball. Chance will be stepping up the minutes. This is insurance that LM and Chance are ready for their new roles, and the reality is that if JJ and Smith are that good, they will play. A backup 4 is not going to steal minutes from either if they are playing like the big time players they are.

Right now, we need Dusan, LM and Chance to hit the ground running. Another big would ease that. That's why the rental idea is nice. He steps in as a finished product and if the young guys pass him up, hey, it's a competitive world.

Go ahead and name off previous grad transfers good enough to be ahead of 3 players with NBA ceilings like Ristic, Lauri, and Comanche. Play and take care of your current damn players. I can get on board with Froling because he has 4-5 years, but a grad transfer would only exist to piss off your current players and steal minutes from them.

No thanks.

Agreed, I'd like the Aussie and a big pg frosh or juco who could start out as a potential red-shirt and finish that way if no one gets injured. I, also, don't see a grad transfer helping the chemistry of that team.

I like the JUCO scenario very much, but not sure if there's one worth pursuing. I think a traditional transfer is the more likely course of action.

[Chicat]

Uncommitted 5-star SG/SF

[enfuego]

Uncommitted 5-star SG/SF

St. John's Lock.

[Chicat]

Uncommitted 5-star SG/SF

St. John's Lock.

UNC

[luteformayor2]

Uncommitted 5-star SG/SF

Miller is truly a witch

[Spaceman Spiff]

Uncommitted 5-star SG/SF

1 out of 9 chance. So you're saying there's a chance...

[rgdeuce]

Choo, in a perfect world, Smith (healthy and ready to go, minimal rust), Trier (doesnt leave early) and Jackson all are on the roster next year. The odds of all three of that happening arent certain. In the event it happens, nobody is "stealing" minutes from those guys. You have flexibility w those guys, they will get theirs. You talk about chemistry like all three of those guys are already here and we know they are gonna coexist.

Frankly, i think its weird you are objecting to depth, insurance plans, and for the worst case scenario. I mean, in a year where we finished a Gonzaga game with five guards on the floor. A team where we thought Pitts wouldnt see the floor and was logging big minutes before his leave, all the while not being able to throw a ball in the ocean if he had the chance. If you are cool w having three bigs and forcing Miller to use Smith and JJ into the four, then cool. But every coach likes options. Every coach likes depth, and every coach loves insurance plans in case of injuries. Three centers/power forwards is thin, no matter what wing u think can play the four. You cited some names, not all of whom were ideal. And there is more to guarding 4s and 5s that length. Much different type of player and style of game than the perimeter guys they have been guarding in high school.

[rgdeuce]

If a team is a lock, not sure why you add a team to a list thats already 8 deep. Probably takes quite a bit and says quite a bit when you are adding teams this late in the game too. Not being optimistic, and every kid is different, but it is saying something

[Chicat]

I don't think Miller would spend the time talking him into adding us to his list if he didn't think there was at least an outside shot.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I don't think Miller would spend the time talking him into adding us to his list if he didn't think there was at least an outside shot.

Miller probably saw his ballislife mixtape, got lost in the sick beat and decided he had to do what he had to do.

Rawle Alkins "King Of NY" The Best Scorer In The …: http://youtu.be/F_ngQ0kG-sI" target="_blank

By the way, he looks like the last 2 NYC big timers, Tyreke Evans and Lance Stephenson an awful lot.

[ChooChooCat]

Choo, in a perfect world, Smith (healthy and ready to go, minimal rust), Trier (doesnt leave early) and Jackson all are on the roster next year. The odds of all three of that happening arent certain. In the event it happens, nobody is "stealing" minutes from those guys. You have flexibility w those guys, they will get theirs. You talk about chemistry like all three of those guys are already here and we know they are gonna coexist.

Frankly, i think its weird you are objecting to depth, insurance plans, and for the worst case scenario. I mean, in a year where we finished a Gonzaga game with five guards on the floor. A team where we thought Pitts wouldnt see the floor and was logging big minutes before his leave, all the while not being able to throw a ball in the ocean if he had the chance. If you are cool w having three bigs and forcing Miller to use Smith and JJ into the four, then cool. But every coach likes options. Every coach likes depth, and every coach loves insurance plans in case of injuries. Three centers/power forwards is thin, no matter what wing u think can play the four. You cited some names, not all of whom were ideal. And there is more to guarding 4s and 5s that length. Much different type of player and style of game than the perimeter guys they have been guarding in high school.

In regards to depth I have past precedence on my side saying that 3 actual bigs logging regular minutes along with a big wing getting minutes at the 4 is a more than adequate post rotation. I did mention that I'd be all about a Korcheck type guy on the roster, but what grad transfer would waste his last year of eligibility on that? I also mentioned I'd be all for this Froling guy who would have 4-5 years in our program. That's somebody worth taking for who could come in not losing his mind over obtaining no minutes and not a grad transfer who would obviously protest to that.

In regards to Jackson and a healthy Smith, my take is the more minutes that they're on the court (no matter the position) the better for Arizona it will be. I do agree with you that all coaches love options and depth, but in college basketball today where patience isn't a virtue for players' careers it just doesn't happen like you guys want it to happen. That's really my objection. Someone will be pissed off with the addition of a grad transfer. Now in Arizona's case this year where Miller's depth at the 4 was only Anderson and Smith then a Tollefsen absolutely makes sense, just like Damion Lee did where we were only looking at Smith and a very raw Simon at the 3. You add a grad transfer for genuine need not for pissing your current players off.

As far as your Gonzaga example wasn't that purely for matchup purposes as our bigs could simply not stop theirs so Miller took another approach? I had anesthesia shortly after all my posts today so excuse me for my recent history being a bit fuzzy lol.

[TucsonClip]

We have 3 guys who can play the 5 (LM, DR, CC) and 3 guys who can play the 4 (LM, JJ, RS). We're fine.

This also assumes we don't land that Aussie post player who's visiting next month. If we land him then we probably won't even have minutes for him.

Both JJ and Smith are true 3's. If we don't need to make them play the 4, so much the better for the program and for them (they both have a pro future at the 3).

The best thing for their future is to get on the floor at Arizona as much as possible. The best thing for Arizona would be for JJ to be on the floor as much as possible and Smith return to 100% and get on the floor.

[Spaceman Spiff]

We have 3 guys who can play the 5 (LM, DR, CC) and 3 guys who can play the 4 (LM, JJ, RS). We're fine.

This also assumes we don't land that Aussie post player who's visiting next month. If we land him then we probably won't even have minutes for him.

Both JJ and Smith are true 3's. If we don't need to make them play the 4, so much the better for the program and for them (they both have a pro future at the 3).

The best thing for their future is to get on the floor at Arizona as much as possible. The best thing for Arizona would be for JJ to be on the floor as much as possible and Smith return to 100% and get on the floor.

I have no doubt JJ would play plenty if he came here. Ray hasn't played a real game in over 2 years when he steps on the floor next year. It would be great if he was 100% without rust immediately, but I doubt that will be the case. Right now, I would put his total level of production in the unknown quantity realm.

If JJ comes, here's our roster distribution: 2 players at the 1 (Allen, PJC). 5 players at the 2/3 (JJ, Smith, Trier, Pitts, Simon). 3 players at 4/5 (DR, LM, CC). If we were to add one more, that's why I think it is an easy call as to what position group we look to.

Miller lets players sort their PT out via performance. That's why I don't sweat creating time for JJ or Smith. Frankly, instead of the smallball lineup some here like, I like the idea of Simon/JJ/Smith at 1/2/3 if they are ready. 6'5, 6'8, 6'8, long and quick. That has a ton of defensive potential.

[rgdeuce]

In regards to depth I have past precedence on my side saying that 3 actual bigs logging regular minutes along with a big wing getting minutes at the 4 is a more than adequate post rotation. I did mention that I'd be all about a Korcheck type guy on the roster, but what grad transfer would waste his last year of eligibility on that? I also mentioned I'd be all for this Froling guy who would have 4-5 years in our program. That's somebody worth taking for who could come in not losing his mind over obtaining no minutes and not a grad transfer who would obviously protest to that.

In regards to Jackson and a healthy Smith, my take is the more minutes that they're on the court (no matter the position) the better for Arizona it will be. I do agree with you that all coaches love options and depth, but in college basketball today where patience isn't a virtue for players' careers it just doesn't happen like you guys want it to happen. That's really my objection. Someone will be pissed off with the addition of a grad transfer. Now in Arizona's case this year where Miller's depth at the 4 was only Anderson and Smith then a Tollefsen absolutely makes sense, just like Damion Lee did where we were only looking at Smith and a very raw Simon at the 3. You add a grad transfer for genuine need not for pissing your current players off.

As far as your Gonzaga example wasn't that purely for matchup purposes as our bigs could simply not stop theirs so Miller took another approach? I had anesthesia shortly after all my posts today so excuse me for my recent history being a bit fuzzy lol.

I know he's not a grad transfer, but why would Kadeem come here? He's turned out to be very good, and things obviously worked out for him, but coming to a school has had plenty of the talent in the back court and a coach who brings in multiple 5 star guys every class? In a perfect world with Smith and Zeus healthy, would Tollefsen be getting many minutes? I can see why a grad transfer would want to go somewhere else, but I can also see why a grad transfer would want to come. To be able to tell his kids he played for one of the premier basketball programs in the country, to learn under CSM, to win a national championship, etc. You don't need a ringer, but u could certainly do better than a Korcheck. Not every grad transfer is going to be like Lee and find the perfect spot to shine and improve his stock or log major minutes. If you come to Arizona you know minutes will be earned and are far from guaranteed. There are plenty of guys fine w that.

You keep talking about 3 bigs and having wings who can slide over to the 4, and that really is fine in a perfect world. But seeing the crap luck this year, losing Bash two years ago, have we been playing in perfect worlds lately? All it takes is one injury and your occasional wing sliding to the 4 in a rotation is logging major minutes there. What happens if we lose Ristic? We start Comanche? Can he hang at that role and with major minutes? Who backs him up? Does Lauri have to move to the bench and you slide Smith to the 4? Does Lauri start at the 5? Looking at his scouting report, does he have the body to hang with many 5's starting or coming off the bench? What happens in games where Lauri and/or Comanche get in foul trouble? There will be games where it happens to both. A big bodied 5 is going to eat that team for lunch and we don't have many fouls to give. How effective are our bigs going to be defensively knowing every night they cannot afford to get into foul trouble?

And again, I fail to see how bringing in a grad transfer will piss anyone off. Any player is going to see the team is thin in the post next year and will want that addressed. I'm not sure Comanche thought he was going to be getting 25 minutes a game his sophomore season. Someone above posted Ristic 30, Comanche and Lauri 25 each. It wont shake out that way with a guy like Smith moving to the 4 at times and the fluidity of the game itself, but 30 minutes for a big are huge minutes for a college big. 25 for a freshman 4 is big. 25 for a backup sophomore big who isnt a standout bench player is big. Say you take 3 from Ristic, and 10 from Comanche. That's 13 minutes for grad transfer in a vacuum. If you want to adjust for Smith moving to the 4, that is fine, but know there are going to matchup problems, foul trouble, an injury (minor or major), etc that are going to mess with those minutes.

[Spaceman Spiff]

RG, I posted the 30/25/25 breakdown on minutes, and that's because that is basically the split you need for a self sufficient three man rotation in the post. I like Lauri and Chance, but I am not sure they will be ready for that. If one is only ready for 15 mpg, you need 10 from somewhere else. Adding a 4th guy enables you to play Dusan for 25, LM for 20, Player X or Chance for 20 and the remaining guy for 15.

I don't see why a transfer would piss people off either. If JJ isn't good enough to take minutes from a grad transfer, I have vastly misevaluated JJ. I also doubt Chance was recruited with a promise of 25 mpg by his sophomore campaign. Things will work out, and Miller has historically been clear with everyone that he recruits a lot of good players and the rotations work themselves out from there.

[rgdeuce]

RG, I posted the 30/25/25 breakdown on minutes, and that's because that is basically the split you need for a self sufficient three man rotation in the post. I like Lauri and Chance, but I am not sure they will be ready for that. If one is only ready for 15 mpg, you need 10 from somewhere else. Adding a 4th guy enables you to play Dusan for 25, LM for 20, Player X or Chance for 20 and the remaining guy for 15.

I don't see why a transfer would piss people off either. If JJ isn't good enough to take minutes from a grad transfer, I have vastly misevaluated JJ. I also doubt Chance was recruited with a promise of 25 mpg by his sophomore campaign. Things will work out, and Miller has historically been clear with everyone that he recruits a lot of good players and the rotations work themselves out from there.

I appreciated that post because it illustrated what I was getting at perfectly, and I agree with everything you are saying. In a perfect world we land JJ, Trier comes back and Smith is in great shape and finding himself by winter break.

I see Smith rusty and needing some time to get back into game shape, taking things a little slow in the early season to gain confidence in the knee (for himself and CSM). So I see him coming off the bench as the first guy off the bench and he will still easily get his 20 plus minutes early. The only guys I see who could be upset are Pitts and possibly PJC if he continues to struggle and Simon emerges, though CSM will still get PJC minutes. If Simon hasn't taken that step, maybe his minutes take a slight bump from what are expected next year. Regardless, 200 minutes in a game, 10 guys (assuming Pitts is the odd man out, and really, not a huge deal).

C- Ristic 25, Comanche 15
PF- LM 20, grad transfer 10 (Smith)
SF - JJ 28, Smith 20, (Pitts)
SG - Trier 28, Simon, 15(JJ)(Pitts)
PG - Allen 23, PJC 17 (Simon)

Simon going to be mad at 15 minutes a game knowing Trier, JJ, possibly Smith, and Allen are all gone next year? 20 mpg is plenty for LM to shine and improve, and I think he is a guy who is going to struggle with foul trouble a bit anyhow. 28 is plenty for JJ and Trier. Smith is probably more than fine with 20 to start and as the season progresses, that number is going to jump (at the expense of grad transfer? who is still a valuable insurance plan and will still get floor time). I think those splits are more than fine for the two point guards. And again, PJC is going to see all those guys leaving after the year. And the team is loaded. When you are loaded and winning, those things typically dont bother you as much. Blow teams out early and Trier and JJ aren't going to be mad at their 22-25 minutes and relishing their 30 point blowout on the bench while watching their teammates play. Given the talent and versatility that would have, I don't see even our best players playing in many games over 30 minutes anyhow. We are always going to have at least 2 elite scorers on the floor and typically have 3 and sometimes 4. Can you imagine a lineup of Trier, JJ, Smith, LM, and Ristic? That would be 5

[ChooChooCat]

I know he's not a grad transfer, but why would Kadeem come here? He's turned out to be very good, and things obviously worked out for him, but coming to a school has had plenty of the talent in the back court and a coach who brings in multiple 5 star guys every class? In a perfect world with Smith and Zeus healthy, would Tollefsen be getting many minutes? I can see why a grad transfer would want to go somewhere else, but I can also see why a grad transfer would want to come. To be able to tell his kids he played for one of the premier basketball programs in the country, to learn under CSM, to win a national championship, etc. You don't need a ringer, but u could certainly do better than a Korcheck. Not every grad transfer is going to be like Lee and find the perfect spot to shine and improve his stock or log major minutes. If you come to Arizona you know minutes will be earned and are far from guaranteed. There are plenty of guys fine w that.

He came here, because he was heavily pursued by our staff, was the best player in JUCO basketball for two years in a row, and had 2-3 years to figure into Arizona's rotation somehow. This isn't a grad transfer who will more than likely be learning a completely new system and having to play it in in one year. That's a total apples to oranges comparison. If Smith and Zeus were healthy, yes I imagine Tollefsen would still be the primary back up 4 and Tollefsen the primary back up 3 to Smith. Smith going down obviously opened up the 3 guard lineup for Arizona. Could you name a grad transfer recently that transferred to a power 5 school to not log major minutes and go there solely for the glory of playing for said team? I'd love to hear examples since there is apparently plenty of guys fine with that.

You keep talking about 3 bigs and having wings who can slide over to the 4, and that really is fine in a perfect world. But seeing the crap luck this year, losing Bash two years ago, have we been playing in perfect worlds lately? All it takes is one injury and your occasional wing sliding to the 4 in a rotation is logging major minutes there. What happens if we lose Ristic? We start Comanche? Can he hang at that role and with major minutes? Who backs him up? Does Lauri have to move to the bench and you slide Smith to the 4? Does Lauri start at the 5? Looking at his scouting report, does he have the body to hang with many 5's starting or coming off the bench? What happens in games where Lauri and/or Comanche get in foul trouble? There will be games where it happens to both. A big bodied 5 is going to eat that team for lunch and we don't have many fouls to give. How effective are our bigs going to be defensively knowing every night they cannot afford to get into foul trouble?

Most college basketball programs don't live in the perfect world of having more than 3 quality bigs and a wing being able to slide over and even if they had more bigs on the roster, they rarely to never played even though a player was lost for the year. Did Korcheck play a pivotal role once Ashley went down? I certainly don't remember it happening that way. Plus it's not as if Gordon was not a more than capable replacement for Ashley. The only thing he lacked was Ashley's offense and that answer certainly wasn't on the bench for us. Injuries to your starters will always impact teams in negative ways no matter how many bodies are on your bench. That's universal, so having a practice body does not help the cause. If we lose Ristic next year then yes Comanche and Lauri are your 5s and I'm not sure what 5s you're scared of in college basketball that you don't think a guy who is currently 6'11 - 7'0 and will likely be around 230lbs by the first jump ball of next year could not play an ounce of defense against. What big bodied 5s would kill Markkanen off the top of your head? Is Jahlil Okafor coming back to play for Duke? Your last question is silly. We have three guys with center size next year, I think we can handle a bit of foul trouble. If Arizona was able to do it with Ristic, Zeus, and Ashley last year and Zeus, Ashley, Gordon (and eventually Rondae) the previous year I think we'll survive.

And again, I fail to see how bringing in a grad transfer will piss anyone off. Any player is going to see the team is thin in the post next year and will want that addressed. I'm not sure Comanche thought he was going to be getting 25 minutes a game his sophomore season. Someone above posted Ristic 30, Comanche and Lauri 25 each. It wont shake out that way with a guy like Smith moving to the 4 at times and the fluidity of the game itself, but 30 minutes for a big are huge minutes for a college big. 25 for a freshman 4 is big. 25 for a backup sophomore big who isnt a standout bench player is big. Say you take 3 from Ristic, and 10 from Comanche. That's 13 minutes for grad transfer in a vacuum. If you want to adjust for Smith moving to the 4, that is fine, but know there are going to matchup problems, foul trouble, an injury (minor or major), etc that are going to mess with those minutes.

Except the team is not thin in the post next year. You keep saying these things, but that doesn't make it true. Do you know what Arizona team was thin in the post? The one where Jesse Perry was our top option at center or the one where we had to start Hassan Adams at the 4. Look at the two teams playing in the national championship last year in the deepest year in college basketball in quite some time. Tell me how they were deeper in the post last year than Arizona will be next year. Kaminsky, Hayes, Dekker, and Dukan were the only guys over 6'8 in that rotation and only two of those guys could be seen as real post players in Hayes and Frank. Duke had Jahlil Okafor, Marshall Plumlee, Amile Jefferson, and Justise Winslow as their post rotation. One of those guys didn't even play 10mpg and another was a natural wing who started at the 4 for them all year. Now please tell me again how Arizona would have such a thin post rotation next year with 3 7 footers, a 6'8 wing, and another 6'7 wing.

[ChooChooCat]

RG, I posted the 30/25/25 breakdown on minutes, and that's because that is basically the split you need for a self sufficient three man rotation in the post. I like Lauri and Chance, but I am not sure they will be ready for that. If one is only ready for 15 mpg, you need 10 from somewhere else. Adding a 4th guy enables you to play Dusan for 25, LM for 20, Player X or Chance for 20 and the remaining guy for 15.

I don't see why a transfer would piss people off either. If JJ isn't good enough to take minutes from a grad transfer, I have vastly misevaluated JJ. I also doubt Chance was recruited with a promise of 25 mpg by his sophomore campaign. Things will work out, and Miller has historically been clear with everyone that he recruits a lot of good players and the rotations work themselves out from there.

I'll use your numbers and point out the obvious names for 10. Ray Smith and Josh Jackson.

A grad transfer would piss off your current post players off and if Miller were to actually play all 4 of Markkanen, Comanche, Ristic, and a grad transfer, that would take minutes away from Smith and/or Jackson at the 4 spot. You take minutes away from guys and they will be pissed. This is the world we live in now. This isn't the Lute Olson era. If you guys are talking about bringing in a grad transfer to be a practice body and emergency fill in sure fine whatever, but if you want him to take 10 minutes a game then you're going to piss people on the team off. In the perfect world we can find a grad transfer to ride the pine and be a good teammate hey I'm all for it, but I've never heard of one doing so at Arizona's level.

[ChooChooCat]

RG, I posted the 30/25/25 breakdown on minutes, and that's because that is basically the split you need for a self sufficient three man rotation in the post. I like Lauri and Chance, but I am not sure they will be ready for that. If one is only ready for 15 mpg, you need 10 from somewhere else. Adding a 4th guy enables you to play Dusan for 25, LM for 20, Player X or Chance for 20 and the remaining guy for 15.

I don't see why a transfer would piss people off either. If JJ isn't good enough to take minutes from a grad transfer, I have vastly misevaluated JJ. I also doubt Chance was recruited with a promise of 25 mpg by his sophomore campaign. Things will work out, and Miller has historically been clear with everyone that he recruits a lot of good players and the rotations work themselves out from there.

I appreciated that post because it illustrated what I was getting at perfectly, and I agree with everything you are saying. In a perfect world we land JJ, Trier comes back and Smith is in great shape and finding himself by winter break.

I see Smith rusty and needing some time to get back into game shape, taking things a little slow in the early season to gain confidence in the knee (for himself and CSM). So I see him coming off the bench as the first guy off the bench and he will still easily get his 20 plus minutes early. The only guys I see who could be upset are Pitts and possibly PJC if he continues to struggle and Simon emerges, though CSM will still get PJC minutes. If Simon hasn't taken that step, maybe his minutes take a slight bump from what are expected next year. Regardless, 200 minutes in a game, 10 guys (assuming Pitts is the odd man out, and really, not a huge deal).

C- Ristic 25, Comanche 15
PF- LM 20, grad transfer 10 (Smith)
SF - JJ 28, Smith 20, (Pitts)
SG - Trier 28, Simon, 15(JJ)(Pitts)
PG - Allen 23, PJC 17 (Simon)

Simon going to be mad at 15 minutes a game knowing Trier, JJ, possibly Smith, and Allen are all gone next year? 20 mpg is plenty for LM to shine and improve, and I think he is a guy who is going to struggle with foul trouble a bit anyhow. 28 is plenty for JJ and Trier. Smith is probably more than fine with 20 to start and as the season progresses, that number is going to jump (at the expense of grad transfer? who is still a valuable insurance plan and will still get floor time). I think those splits are more than fine for the two point guards. And again, PJC is going to see all those guys leaving after the year. And the team is loaded. When you are loaded and winning, those things typically dont bother you as much. Blow teams out early and Trier and JJ aren't going to be mad at their 22-25 minutes and relishing their 30 point blowout on the bench while watching their teammates play. Given the talent and versatility that would have, I don't see even our best players playing in many games over 30 minutes anyhow. We are always going to have at least 2 elite scorers on the floor and typically have 3 and sometimes 4. Can you imagine a lineup of Trier, JJ, Smith, LM, and Ristic? That would be 5

C - Ristic 25, Comanche 15
PF - LM 25, Smith/JJ 15, maybe even Comanche for a spell
SF - JJ 28, Smith 20 (Simon/Pitts)
SG - Trier 28, Simon 15, JJ/Pitts the rest
PG - Allen 23, PJC 17 (I see less for PJC, but we'll use your numbers).

Why does this not work? How does it not work? It's almost too perfect. Why is another body needed to log minutes away from our best players?

[TucsonClip]

We have 3 guys who can play the 5 (LM, DR, CC) and 3 guys who can play the 4 (LM, JJ, RS). We're fine.

This also assumes we don't land that Aussie post player who's visiting next month. If we land him then we probably won't even have minutes for him.

Both JJ and Smith are true 3's. If we don't need to make them play the 4, so much the better for the program and for them (they both have a pro future at the 3).

The best thing for their future is to get on the floor at Arizona as much as possible. The best thing for Arizona would be for JJ to be on the floor as much as possible and Smith return to 100% and get on the floor.

I have no doubt JJ would play plenty if he came here. Ray hasn't played a real game in over 2 years when he steps on the floor next year. It would be great if he was 100% without rust immediately, but I doubt that will be the case. Right now, I would put his total level of production in the unknown quantity realm.

If JJ comes, here's our roster distribution: 2 players at the 1 (Allen, PJC). 5 players at the 2/3 (JJ, Smith, Trier, Pitts, Simon). 3 players at 4/5 (DR, LM, CC). If we were to add one more, that's why I think it is an easy call as to what position group we look to.

Miller lets players sort their PT out via performance. That's why I don't sweat creating time for JJ or Smith. Frankly, instead of the smallball lineup some here like, I like the idea of Simon/JJ/Smith at 1/2/3 if they are ready. 6'5, 6'8, 6'8, long and quick. That has a ton of defensive potential.

My thing is, get your best players on the floor in college and let them play/develop. Positions dont matter as much as on floor development. Skill and positional development will happen either either way with hard work, especially in the NBA.

[ChooChooCat]

We have 3 guys who can play the 5 (LM, DR, CC) and 3 guys who can play the 4 (LM, JJ, RS). We're fine.

This also assumes we don't land that Aussie post player who's visiting next month. If we land him then we probably won't even have minutes for him.

Both JJ and Smith are true 3's. If we don't need to make them play the 4, so much the better for the program and for them (they both have a pro future at the 3).

The best thing for their future is to get on the floor at Arizona as much as possible. The best thing for Arizona would be for JJ to be on the floor as much as possible and Smith return to 100% and get on the floor.

I have no doubt JJ would play plenty if he came here. Ray hasn't played a real game in over 2 years when he steps on the floor next year. It would be great if he was 100% without rust immediately, but I doubt that will be the case. Right now, I would put his total level of production in the unknown quantity realm.

If JJ comes, here's our roster distribution: 2 players at the 1 (Allen, PJC). 5 players at the 2/3 (JJ, Smith, Trier, Pitts, Simon). 3 players at 4/5 (DR, LM, CC). If we were to add one more, that's why I think it is an easy call as to what position group we look to.

Miller lets players sort their PT out via performance. That's why I don't sweat creating time for JJ or Smith. Frankly, instead of the smallball lineup some here like, I like the idea of Simon/JJ/Smith at 1/2/3 if they are ready. 6'5, 6'8, 6'8, long and quick. That has a ton of defensive potential.

My thing is, get your best players on the floor in college and let them play/develop. Positions dont matter as much as on floor development. Skill and positional development will happen either either way with hard work, especially in the NBA.

Amen.

[Spaceman Spiff]

We have 3 guys who can play the 5 (LM, DR, CC) and 3 guys who can play the 4 (LM, JJ, RS). We're fine.

This also assumes we don't land that Aussie post player who's visiting next month. If we land him then we probably won't even have minutes for him.

Both JJ and Smith are true 3's. If we don't need to make them play the 4, so much the better for the program and for them (they both have a pro future at the 3).

The best thing for their future is to get on the floor at Arizona as much as possible. The best thing for Arizona would be for JJ to be on the floor as much as possible and Smith return to 100% and get on the floor.

I have no doubt JJ would play plenty if he came here. Ray hasn't played a real game in over 2 years when he steps on the floor next year. It would be great if he was 100% without rust immediately, but I doubt that will be the case. Right now, I would put his total level of production in the unknown quantity realm.

If JJ comes, here's our roster distribution: 2 players at the 1 (Allen, PJC). 5 players at the 2/3 (JJ, Smith, Trier, Pitts, Simon). 3 players at 4/5 (DR, LM, CC). If we were to add one more, that's why I think it is an easy call as to what position group we look to.

Miller lets players sort their PT out via performance. That's why I don't sweat creating time for JJ or Smith. Frankly, instead of the smallball lineup some here like, I like the idea of Simon/JJ/Smith at 1/2/3 if they are ready. 6'5, 6'8, 6'8, long and quick. That has a ton of defensive potential.

My thing is, get your best players on the floor in college and let them play/develop. Positions dont matter as much as on floor development. Skill and positional development will happen either either way with hard work, especially in the NBA.

I have no doubt that will happen.

I just don't see a reason not to rely on JJ/Smith as the only answer to "what if we need more personnel at the 4/5?" If we can bring in a backup and let the minute chips fall where they may, that gives us more options.

For Choochoo's point about whether a grad transfer would accept this role...if one does not, we can use your solution of JJ and Smith. We may not get an interested grad transfer, but there is no downside to seeing if one exists.

I am not a fan of the chemistry argument. If current players need a guarantee of minutes, your team culture is sick. I am a firm believer that you offer a fair competition for minutes and draw in the people who want to compete. If you have competition averse players, your team is gonna get whipped.

[ChooChooCat]

I have no doubt that will happen.

I just don't see a reason not to rely on JJ/Smith as the only answer to "what if we need more personnel at the 4/5?" If we can bring in a backup and let the minute chips fall where they may, that gives us more options.

For Choochoo's point about whether a grad transfer would accept this role...if one does not, we can use your solution of JJ and Smith. We may not get an interested grad transfer, but there is no downside to seeing if one exists.

I am not a fan of the chemistry argument. If current players need a guarantee of minutes, your team culture is sick. I am a firm believer that you offer a fair competition for minutes and draw in the people who want to compete. If you have competition averse players, your team is gonna get whipped.

Recruit a player that will be here for more than a year like we are with the Aussie kid. That answer is a million times better than bringing in a one year rental that doesn't help your future and would piss off your current players you are developing. I'm sorry you're not a fan of the chemistry argument, but it exists everywhere that's not Kentucky, hence why there's an abundance of transfers every year. There's no reason to take away development from your highly rated recruits that are currently on campus who already know the system and will get better in it with more playing time along with incoming players that will be your best talent. There's genuinely none at all.

Either way if we land Jackson and Trier returns and nobody transfers out there's 10 players right there that will be getting minutes. In what Sean Miller rotation have you seen him go past 10 in real games? What college basketball team anywhere plays more than 10 guys in a non-blowout game?

[carolinacat]

The solution here is obvious: Just blow every team out next season and everyone gets their minutes, including the walk-ons. Carry on.

[Harvey Specter]

RG, I posted the 30/25/25 breakdown on minutes, and that's because that is basically the split you need for a self sufficient three man rotation in the post. I like Lauri and Chance, but I am not sure they will be ready for that. If one is only ready for 15 mpg, you need 10 from somewhere else. Adding a 4th guy enables you to play Dusan for 25, LM for 20, Player X or Chance for 20 and the remaining guy for 15.

I don't see why a transfer would piss people off either. If JJ isn't good enough to take minutes from a grad transfer, I have vastly misevaluated JJ. I also doubt Chance was recruited with a promise of 25 mpg by his sophomore campaign. Things will work out, and Miller has historically been clear with everyone that he recruits a lot of good players and the rotations work themselves out from there.

I appreciated that post because it illustrated what I was getting at perfectly, and I agree with everything you are saying. In a perfect world we land JJ, Trier comes back and Smith is in great shape and finding himself by winter break.

I see Smith rusty and needing some time to get back into game shape, taking things a little slow in the early season to gain confidence in the knee (for himself and CSM). So I see him coming off the bench as the first guy off the bench and he will still easily get his 20 plus minutes early. The only guys I see who could be upset are Pitts and possibly PJC if he continues to struggle and Simon emerges, though CSM will still get PJC minutes. If Simon hasn't taken that step, maybe his minutes take a slight bump from what are expected next year. Regardless, 200 minutes in a game, 10 guys (assuming Pitts is the odd man out, and really, not a huge deal).

C- Ristic 25, Comanche 15
PF- LM 20, grad transfer 10 (Smith)
SF - JJ 28, Smith 20, (Pitts)
SG - Trier 28, Simon, 15(JJ)(Pitts)
PG - Allen 23, PJC 17 (Simon)

Simon going to be mad at 15 minutes a game knowing Trier, JJ, possibly Smith, and Allen are all gone next year? 20 mpg is plenty for LM to shine and improve, and I think he is a guy who is going to struggle with foul trouble a bit anyhow. 28 is plenty for JJ and Trier. Smith is probably more than fine with 20 to start and as the season progresses, that number is going to jump (at the expense of grad transfer? who is still a valuable insurance plan and will still get floor time). I think those splits are more than fine for the two point guards. And again, PJC is going to see all those guys leaving after the year. And the team is loaded. When you are loaded and winning, those things typically dont bother you as much. Blow teams out early and Trier and JJ aren't going to be mad at their 22-25 minutes and relishing their 30 point blowout on the bench while watching their teammates play. Given the talent and versatility that would have, I don't see even our best players playing in many games over 30 minutes anyhow. We are always going to have at least 2 elite scorers on the floor and typically have 3 and sometimes 4. Can you imagine a lineup of Trier, JJ, Smith, LM, and Ristic? That would be 5

C - Ristic 25, Comanche 15
PF - LM 25, Smith/JJ 15, maybe even Comanche for a spell
SF - JJ 28, Smith 20 (Simon/Pitts)
SG - Trier 28, Simon 15, JJ/Pitts the rest
PG - Allen 23, PJC 17 (I see less for PJC, but we'll use your numbers).

Why does this not work? How does it not work? It's almost too perfect. Why is another body needed to log minutes away from our best players?

For starters it does not work because there are only 200 minutes to go around... unless you are expecting an awful lot of OT games...

[Spaceman Spiff]

I have no doubt that will happen.

I just don't see a reason not to rely on JJ/Smith as the only answer to "what if we need more personnel at the 4/5?" If we can bring in a backup and let the minute chips fall where they may, that gives us more options.

For Choochoo's point about whether a grad transfer would accept this role...if one does not, we can use your solution of JJ and Smith. We may not get an interested grad transfer, but there is no downside to seeing if one exists.

I am not a fan of the chemistry argument. If current players need a guarantee of minutes, your team culture is sick. I am a firm believer that you offer a fair competition for minutes and draw in the people who want to compete. If you have competition averse players, your team is gonna get whipped.

Recruit a player that will be here for more than a year like we are with the Aussie kid. That answer is a million times better than bringing in a one year rental that doesn't help your future and would piss off your current players you are developing. I'm sorry you're not a fan of the chemistry argument, but it exists everywhere that's not Kentucky, hence why there's an abundance of transfers every year. There's no reason to take away development from your highly rated recruits that are currently on campus who already know the system and will get better in it with more playing time along with incoming players that will be your best talent. There's genuinely none at all.

Either way if we land Jackson and Trier returns and nobody transfers out there's 10 players right there that will be getting minutes. In what Sean Miller rotation have you seen him go past 10 in real games? What college basketball team anywhere plays more than 10 guys in a non-blowout game?

My expectation would not a regular rotation that exceeds 10 players. If we landed a competent big, ai would expect that backup minutes at 1, 2 and 3 would become extremely competitive. If we get JJ and he starts, we have Smith, Simon, Pitts and PJC in backup roles at those positions.

If we don't need to roll JJ and Smith up to the 4, they just take minutes at the 1-3 and make it distinctly likely that at least one person is squeezed out of the rotation. FWIW, I noticed in 97's breakdown that he did not include PJC as a rotation player next year.

I just believe you recruit aggressively and do not settle into a good enough mentality. We may not attract a guy, but the numbers are clear about the area of "need." For the record, with JJ, our area of need would be an area of strength for most teams.

[ChooChooCat]

RG, I posted the 30/25/25 breakdown on minutes, and that's because that is basically the split you need for a self sufficient three man rotation in the post. I like Lauri and Chance, but I am not sure they will be ready for that. If one is only ready for 15 mpg, you need 10 from somewhere else. Adding a 4th guy enables you to play Dusan for 25, LM for 20, Player X or Chance for 20 and the remaining guy for 15.

I don't see why a transfer would piss people off either. If JJ isn't good enough to take minutes from a grad transfer, I have vastly misevaluated JJ. I also doubt Chance was recruited with a promise of 25 mpg by his sophomore campaign. Things will work out, and Miller has historically been clear with everyone that he recruits a lot of good players and the rotations work themselves out from there.

I appreciated that post because it illustrated what I was getting at perfectly, and I agree with everything you are saying. In a perfect world we land JJ, Trier comes back and Smith is in great shape and finding himself by winter break.

I see Smith rusty and needing some time to get back into game shape, taking things a little slow in the early season to gain confidence in the knee (for himself and CSM). So I see him coming off the bench as the first guy off the bench and he will still easily get his 20 plus minutes early. The only guys I see who could be upset are Pitts and possibly PJC if he continues to struggle and Simon emerges, though CSM will still get PJC minutes. If Simon hasn't taken that step, maybe his minutes take a slight bump from what are expected next year. Regardless, 200 minutes in a game, 10 guys (assuming Pitts is the odd man out, and really, not a huge deal).

C- Ristic 25, Comanche 15
PF- LM 20, grad transfer 10 (Smith)
SF - JJ 28, Smith 20, (Pitts)
SG - Trier 28, Simon, 15(JJ)(Pitts)
PG - Allen 23, PJC 17 (Simon)

Simon going to be mad at 15 minutes a game knowing Trier, JJ, possibly Smith, and Allen are all gone next year? 20 mpg is plenty for LM to shine and improve, and I think he is a guy who is going to struggle with foul trouble a bit anyhow. 28 is plenty for JJ and Trier. Smith is probably more than fine with 20 to start and as the season progresses, that number is going to jump (at the expense of grad transfer? who is still a valuable insurance plan and will still get floor time). I think those splits are more than fine for the two point guards. And again, PJC is going to see all those guys leaving after the year. And the team is loaded. When you are loaded and winning, those things typically dont bother you as much. Blow teams out early and Trier and JJ aren't going to be mad at their 22-25 minutes and relishing their 30 point blowout on the bench while watching their teammates play. Given the talent and versatility that would have, I don't see even our best players playing in many games over 30 minutes anyhow. We are always going to have at least 2 elite scorers on the floor and typically have 3 and sometimes 4. Can you imagine a lineup of Trier, JJ, Smith, LM, and Ristic? That would be 5

C - Ristic 25, Comanche 15
PF - LM 25, Smith/JJ 15, maybe even Comanche for a spell
SF - JJ 28, Smith 20 (Simon/Pitts)
SG - Trier 28, Simon 15, JJ/Pitts the rest
PG - Allen 23, PJC 17 (I see less for PJC, but we'll use your numbers).

Why does this not work? How does it not work? It's almost too perfect. Why is another body needed to log minutes away from our best players?

For starters it does not work because there are only 200 minutes to go around... unless you are expecting an awful lot of OT games...

Lol was just using his numbers for reference.

[ChooChooCat]

I have no doubt that will happen.

I just don't see a reason not to rely on JJ/Smith as the only answer to "what if we need more personnel at the 4/5?" If we can bring in a backup and let the minute chips fall where they may, that gives us more options.

For Choochoo's point about whether a grad transfer would accept this role...if one does not, we can use your solution of JJ and Smith. We may not get an interested grad transfer, but there is no downside to seeing if one exists.

I am not a fan of the chemistry argument. If current players need a guarantee of minutes, your team culture is sick. I am a firm believer that you offer a fair competition for minutes and draw in the people who want to compete. If you have competition averse players, your team is gonna get whipped.

Recruit a player that will be here for more than a year like we are with the Aussie kid. That answer is a million times better than bringing in a one year rental that doesn't help your future and would piss off your current players you are developing. I'm sorry you're not a fan of the chemistry argument, but it exists everywhere that's not Kentucky, hence why there's an abundance of transfers every year. There's no reason to take away development from your highly rated recruits that are currently on campus who already know the system and will get better in it with more playing time along with incoming players that will be your best talent. There's genuinely none at all.

Either way if we land Jackson and Trier returns and nobody transfers out there's 10 players right there that will be getting minutes. In what Sean Miller rotation have you seen him go past 10 in real games? What college basketball team anywhere plays more than 10 guys in a non-blowout game?

My expectation would not a regular rotation that exceeds 10 players. If we landed a competent big, ai would expect that backup minutes at 1, 2 and 3 would become extremely competitive. If we get JJ and he starts, we have Smith, Simon, Pitts and PJC in backup roles at those positions.

If we don't need to roll JJ and Smith up to the 4, they just take minutes at the 1-3 and make it distinctly likely that at least one person is squeezed out of the rotation. FWIW, I noticed in 97's breakdown that he did not include PJC as a rotation player next year.

I just believe you recruit aggressively and do not settle into a good enough mentality. We may not attract a guy, but the numbers are clear about the area of "need." For the record, with JJ, our area of need would be an area of strength for most teams.

So your take is to squeeze a guard out of the rotation and lower the minutes of the post players we'd have? Why are we doing this again exactly? God I hope we land the Aussie and this debate goes away because it's just silly now.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Look, I'll take one last post on the topic. Here are the downsides of the proposed roster composition with JJ but without an additional big.

1. We have a 3 man post rotation unless we rotate JJ or Smith to the 4. This requires all 3 posts to be ready for significant minutes in college (with 2 players never having played significant minutes in college), requires nobody to get injured and requires relatively green players to not have much foul trouble.
2. If we rotate JJ and/or Smith, that does give us backing at the 4. It also requires Smith to assume more responsibility coming off two major knee injuries.
3. This is a wish list for an ideal situation.
4. As it stands, if JJ comes and all our potential returners return, we have 7 players for 3 perimeter spots. If your worry is someone gets squeezed out, that may come true regardless of the post situation. I do not think it would be odd to see Simon pass either Pitts or PJC and relegate them to a minimal role regardless of how we handle the post situation.
5. Chemistry is overrated. There is a positive from people having to work for playing time, and chemistry that arises from a competitive situation is vastly better than chemistry that arises from players being assured playing time.

[TucsonClip]

I mean, if you're bringing in another grand transfer, you expect him to play minutes. I see where your logic is, because whats wrong with more depth?

Nothing, other than that depth potentially taking a spot in the rotation over a guy Miller recruited.

It's a double-edged sword. Recruit a grad transfer for depth, but also risk alienating guys you signed and causing problems on the recruiting trail.

[ChooChooCat]

Look, I'll take one last post on the topic. Here are the downsides of the proposed roster composition with JJ but without an additional big.

1. We have a 3 man post rotation unless we rotate JJ or Smith to the 4. This requires all 3 posts to be ready for significant minutes in college (with 2 players never having played significant minutes in college), requires nobody to get injured and requires relatively green players to not have much foul trouble.
2. If we rotate JJ and/or Smith, that does give us backing at the 4. It also requires Smith to assume more responsibility coming off two major knee injuries.
3. This is a wish list for an ideal situation.
4. As it stands, if JJ comes and all our potential returners return, we have 7 players for 3 perimeter spots. If your worry is someone gets squeezed out, that may come true regardless of the post situation. I do not think it would be odd to see Simon pass either Pitts or PJC and relegate them to a minimal role regardless of how we handle the post situation.
5. Chemistry is overrated. There is a positive from people having to work for playing time, and chemistry that arises from a competitive situation is vastly better than chemistry that arises from players being assured playing time.

1. You just named a 5 man post rotation with JJ and Smith. My last question for you is did you have a problem with Rondae being in our post rotation the last two seasons and if you didn't have this problem then why is it one now? I don't see how or why our 3 posts would not be ready for significant minutes unless you don't trust 1. Our staff's evaluation abilities & 2. Our staff's developmental abilities. Next year will be Ristic's 3rd year in the system, Comanche's 2nd, Lauri is heralded as a possible 1 and done. I'm having a hard time thinking these guys would be less prepared than say Gordon, Ashley, and Zeus two years ago, but to each his own. I mean if that's the case we should always add grad transfers, because players within our program may never develop. I already addressed why worrying about foul trouble when you have 3 guys capable at the 5 and 3 guys capable at the 4 is ridiculous. Yes an injury can always occur, but as mentioned previously injuries to starters/key rotation players happen and no team is better prepared than others at the college basketball level outside of maybe Kentucky.
2. Good thing for us that Ray will have a year between tearing his ACL and the first ball tip. If he tore a meniscus I'd be worried, but he didn't and had a clean tear. I don't fear the worst for him, but I'll give you that it could be a concern. Still that leaves Jackson if Smith can't contribute, which is doubtful.
3. That's fair.
4. I don't disagree, but that still doesn't mean crowding our post situation is the right call for this team.
5. I respectfully disagree. Chemistry issues is why we had a 4th place finish in the Pac-12 in 2013. Chemistry issues can solve themselves with the bitter parties leaving, but they should not be something Miller should welcome or seek out by adding an unnecessary mouth to feed to the trough. Quite frankly most of his recruiting decisions since the 2012 class show that he definitely takes chemistry issues into consideration.

[ChooChooCat]

I mean, if you're bringing in another grand transfer, you expect him to play minutes. I see where your logic is, because whats wrong with more depth?

Nothing, other than that depth potentially taking a spot in the rotation over a guy Miller recruited.

It's a double-edged sword. Recruit a grad transfer for depth, but also risk alienating guys you signed and causing problems on the recruiting trail.

Bingo.

[rgdeuce]

Choo choo if you used my minutes you would have gotten 201. Think yours added ten more lol

[Harvey Specter]

I feel like I am the only one who scratches my head at the suggestion that JJ or RS play the '4' next season. Those guys look like purebred 2-3 wing types to me. I could see an occasional 4-1 attack with those 2, Trier, Kadeem/PJC, and Dusan /Chance on the floor together... and some cases where you simply want your best players in at crunch time.

But both seem too valuable on the perimeter (and I am not sure either is strong enough) to park them inside. RHJ was stronger and an exceptionally versatile defender, but he was not a good perimeter offensive player. JJ and RS look like completely different players to me.

Assuming no injury... Let Dusan, Chance, and Lauri eat up 70 minutes a game, and mix things up with a 4-1 attack for 10 minutes per outing. Maybe that is what others are suggesting; if so, I am on board.