Bear Down Wildcats

PHXCATS wrote:

EVCat wrote:

rgdeuce wrote:

threenumberones wrote:

PHXCATS wrote:Culture problem? Is the environment really that bad that kids will leave when they likely shouldn't? Or has Miller recruited the kids with poor decision making?

Something is definitely going on. Hopefully this is enough of a shock for Miller to take a hard look at how things could evolve.

It's a domino effect with a bunch of 18- and 19-year-olds guys. Nothing more, nothing less. This generation is instant gratification, materialistic, very impressionable, and have short attention spans. Some more so than others, but those are traits they have been socialized with, it is what it is. You see your buddies and teammates jetting, you see what is out there and how much money could be made, you take the leap. Rawle sees himself better than Kobi (he was) and goes, shit, I want a piece of that and if Kobi can do it, I sure as hell can.

Yup...this happened in 2001 as well. Everyone left, and Jason Gardner really, really, seriously considered, and may have even entered without an agent and did that whole thing, knowing full well he was not draft material. Michael Wright got caught up in that insanity...he ended up eeking out a good living, and he wasn't going to suddenly be able to jump over a deck of cards, but that was still an era where players only left early if they were going to get NBA guarantees. When Loren Woods and RJ and then even sophomore Gilbert Arenas declared, there was definitely a sense of "I play with that guy everyday...if he is good enough, I am good enough."

Think of any social situation where you are young and around alpha types who are all going to do something big. You start to figure out how you might be able to join in if it is something cool...and declaring for the NBA draft certainly has a cache among other people their age. It isn't logical or rational...but it definitely happens.

Sorry but I dont buy it. If it happens once I would buy it but it happens at Arizona more often than other Tier 1 and Tier 2 schools except Kentucky and all those guys get drafted unlike Arizona guys and perform well in the association.

PHXCATS wrote:

EVCat wrote:

rgdeuce wrote:

threenumberones wrote:

PHXCATS wrote:Culture problem? Is the environment really that bad that kids will leave when they likely shouldn't? Or has Miller recruited the kids with poor decision making?

Something is definitely going on. Hopefully this is enough of a shock for Miller to take a hard look at how things could evolve.

It's a domino effect with a bunch of 18- and 19-year-olds guys. Nothing more, nothing less. This generation is instant gratification, materialistic, very impressionable, and have short attention spans. Some more so than others, but those are traits they have been socialized with, it is what it is. You see your buddies and teammates jetting, you see what is out there and how much money could be made, you take the leap. Rawle sees himself better than Kobi (he was) and goes, shit, I want a piece of that and if Kobi can do it, I sure as hell can.

Yup...this happened in 2001 as well. Everyone left, and Jason Gardner really, really, seriously considered, and may have even entered without an agent and did that whole thing, knowing full well he was not draft material. Michael Wright got caught up in that insanity...he ended up eeking out a good living, and he wasn't going to suddenly be able to jump over a deck of cards, but that was still an era where players only left early if they were going to get NBA guarantees. When Loren Woods and RJ and then even sophomore Gilbert Arenas declared, there was definitely a sense of "I play with that guy everyday...if he is good enough, I am good enough."

Think of any social situation where you are young and around alpha types who are all going to do something big. You start to figure out how you might be able to join in if it is something cool...and declaring for the NBA draft certainly has a cache among other people their age. It isn't logical or rational...but it definitely happens.

Sorry but I dont buy it. If it happens once I would buy it but it happens at Arizona more often than other Tier 1 and Tier 2 schools except Kentucky and all those guys get drafted unlike Arizona guys and perform well in the association.

PHXCATS wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

PHXCATS wrote:

EVCat wrote:Then what is your explanation? I'm not sure what there is to "buy" here.

I would say if you actually pulled the lens back and looked at every program and the level of ranking the players entered the program at and used that to compare apples to apples, we are no different. We just ignore when a Zeus, who was expected to be a short timer, stays 4, or BASH, expected to possibly be a one and done, stays 3. We only pay attention to the losses.

And at this point, we have only lost one player who could have come back and played (Lauri) and he is a lottery pick. Kobi was transferring or leaving...he wasn't coming back as an elite recruit with some pro basketball buzz to play 5 minutes a game.

Zues hasnt done anything in the association nor has Nick Johnson or Grant Jerrett or Brandon Ashley. The entire 2011 class left early and no one has done anything in the nba worth noting.

If you have guys leaving early who do well in the nba thats awesome. When guys leave early and dont that is really bad.

I am hoping bringing in Romar helps with the culture issues with Arizona Basketball.

Stop. Plenty of guys from other schools leave early and don't see NBA success. Kentucky is supposedly the NBA factory. Dakari Johnson, Aaron Harrison, Marquis Teague, Doron Lamb, Marcus Lee, Kyle Wiltjer, those guys left either for another school or for the draft and have seen limited or no NBA success.

Heck, Duke has guys like Jeter and Thornton flaming out and leaving in the last two years. The complete lack of perspective vs other powers is crazy to me. Just being a top 20 recruit is not an automatic ticket.

It happens more at Arizona and Arizona has less success than those schools and those schools have FAR more NBA success.

But you are right, with all our final fours and national titles and nba super stars under Miller no reason to be concerned.

gumby wrote:(reincarnation of Machina?)

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

PHXCATS wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

PHXCATS wrote:

EVCat wrote:Then what is your explanation? I'm not sure what there is to "buy" here.

I would say if you actually pulled the lens back and looked at every program and the level of ranking the players entered the program at and used that to compare apples to apples, we are no different. We just ignore when a Zeus, who was expected to be a short timer, stays 4, or BASH, expected to possibly be a one and done, stays 3. We only pay attention to the losses.

And at this point, we have only lost one player who could have come back and played (Lauri) and he is a lottery pick. Kobi was transferring or leaving...he wasn't coming back as an elite recruit with some pro basketball buzz to play 5 minutes a game.

Zues hasnt done anything in the association nor has Nick Johnson or Grant Jerrett or Brandon Ashley. The entire 2011 class left early and no one has done anything in the nba worth noting.

If you have guys leaving early who do well in the nba thats awesome. When guys leave early and dont that is really bad.

I am hoping bringing in Romar helps with the culture issues with Arizona Basketball.

Stop. Plenty of guys from other schools leave early and don't see NBA success. Kentucky is supposedly the NBA factory. Dakari Johnson, Aaron Harrison, Marquis Teague, Doron Lamb, Marcus Lee, Kyle Wiltjer, those guys left either for another school or for the draft and have seen limited or no NBA success.

Heck, Duke has guys like Jeter and Thornton flaming out and leaving in the last two years. The complete lack of perspective vs other powers is crazy to me. Just being a top 20 recruit is not an automatic ticket.

It happens more at Arizona and Arizona has less success than those schools and those schools have FAR more NBA success.

But you are right, with all our final fours and national titles and nba super stars under Miller no reason to be concerned.

Look, I've posted plenty about the history of Miller's tenure here, and how significantly the tournament results have exceeded expectations. I don't really think repeating that for you will do anything.

Take your shots at Miller. It isn't like they're based in reality.

TheBlackLodge wrote:

gumby wrote:(reincarnation of Machina?)

Not a reincarnation, he's the genuine article.

gumby wrote:

TheBlackLodge wrote:

gumby wrote:(reincarnation of Machina?)

Not a reincarnation, he's the genuine article.

Then that answers the data question. There won't be any.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:Arizona has a culture problem we need Romar to fix.

I'm not taking shots at Miller.

Sorry, I just don't see how these two statements coexist.

PHXCATS wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:Arizona has a culture problem we need Romar to fix.

I'm not taking shots at Miller.

Sorry, I just don't see how these two statements coexist.

I did not say the top line.

I will admit I was wrong on the comparison to the top schools but I do consider 4 people leaving ear in one off season, 2 or 3 of which will likely go undrafted at the current projections, to be a culture issue. If that is recruiting or day to day in season or schooling or what I am not sure, but this is not optimal for the highest level of success.

PHXCATS wrote:Sorry again for being incorrect with my assumptions and acting like it was a fact.

Kansas and Louisville have had worst percentages of early declaration guys who went undrafted compared to Arizona.

Arizona 14%
Kansas 18%
Louisville 20%

Data since 2011. I felt this was a fair time to start judging Miller as this would be his first full class he had full time to recruit.

PHXCATS wrote: I will admit I was wrong on the comparison to the top schools but I do consider 4 people leaving ear in one off season, 2 or 3 of which will likely go undrafted at the current projections, to be a culture issue. If that is recruiting or day to day in season or schooling or what I am not sure, but this is not optimal for the highest level of success.

dcZONAfan wrote:

PHXCATS wrote: I will admit I was wrong on the comparison to the top schools but I do consider 4 people leaving ear in one off season, 2 or 3 of which will likely go undrafted at the current projections, to be a culture issue. If that is recruiting or day to day in season or schooling or what I am not sure, but this is not optimal for the highest level of success.

4 people leaving, huh?

So if my count is correct, you mean:
1) Pasternack
2) Kadeem
3) Lauri
4) Kobi

I think your assessment is way off. I think Pasternack is likely to get drafted. So with Kadeem that's only 1 who is unlikely to get to the NBA. Hence, you're a moron.

PHXCATS wrote: Chance
Rawle

For now

dcZONAfan wrote:

PHXCATS wrote: Chance
Rawle

For now

Provide a link, please? K thx

Longhorned wrote:

gumby wrote:

TheBlackLodge wrote:

gumby wrote:(reincarnation of Machina?)

Not a reincarnation, he's the genuine article.

Then that answers the data question. There won't be any.

I've learned that the key is to develop an appreciation for unfounded but deeply felt resentment.

PHXCATS wrote:

dcZONAfan wrote:

PHXCATS wrote: Chance
Rawle

For now

Provide a link, please? K thx

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/1911 ... -nba-draft" target="_blank

http://tucson.com/sports/arizonawildcat ... 55b20.html" target="_blank

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2246&start=950#p256002" target="_blank

EVCat wrote:and if we ask tomorrow?

PHXCATS wrote:Yes but the two we are most concerned with are not first round projection and all insiders are saying they are likely gone. No insiders are saying they are likely coming back.

I do think it is a potential issues, I will say that at risk of sounding dumb again like yesterday, that three non projected first rounders are likely leaving early per insiders.

PHXCATS wrote:Yes but the two we are most concerned with are not first round projection and all insiders are saying they are likely gone. No insiders are saying they are likely coming back.

I do think it is a potential issues, I will say that at risk of sounding dumb again like yesterday, that three non projected first rounders are likely leaving early per insiders.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

PHXCATS wrote:Yes but the two we are most concerned with are not first round projection and all insiders are saying they are likely gone. No insiders are saying they are likely coming back.

I do think it is a potential issues, I will say that at risk of sounding dumb again like yesterday, that three non projected first rounders are likely leaving early per insiders.

I said 182 players declared early for that reason. The idea that early entries are a big issues...well, college ball has a ton of early entries. Getting stressed about people testing the waters before they actually go and inferring issues from that is a bit out there for me.

The process will unfold.

PHXCATS wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

PHXCATS wrote:Yes but the two we are most concerned with are not first round projection and all insiders are saying they are likely gone. No insiders are saying they are likely coming back.

I do think it is a potential issues, I will say that at risk of sounding dumb again like yesterday, that three non projected first rounders are likely leaving early per insiders.

I said 182 players declared early for that reason. The idea that early entries are a big issues...well, college ball has a ton of early entries. Getting stressed about people testing the waters before they actually go and inferring issues from that is a bit out there for me.

The process will unfold.

Because insiders are saying they are gone and no one has then as first rounders.

If the insiders were saying things like with Trier before it would be totally different. They are saying they think they are gone when they will in all likelihood be undrafted or late second rounders. They are not saying they will probably come back and just want the evaluation unless they project to be first rounders.

NYCat wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

PHXCATS wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

PHXCATS wrote:Yes but the two we are most concerned with are not first round projection and all insiders are saying they are likely gone. No insiders are saying they are likely coming back.

I do think it is a potential issues, I will say that at risk of sounding dumb again like yesterday, that three non projected first rounders are likely leaving early per insiders.

I said 182 players declared early for that reason. The idea that early entries are a big issues...well, college ball has a ton of early entries. Getting stressed about people testing the waters before they actually go and inferring issues from that is a bit out there for me.

The process will unfold.

Because insiders are saying they are gone and no one has then as first rounders.

If the insiders were saying things like with Trier before it would be totally different. They are saying they think they are gone when they will in all likelihood be undrafted or late second rounders. They are not saying they will probably come back and just want the evaluation unless they project to be first rounders.

What if the insiders are actually ASU operatives trying to destabilize Arizona basketball's hold on the Arcadia Tavern by sowing seeds of doubt?

THE PROCESS WILL UNFOLD. A crazy number of kids declared. Instead of pooping our pants over what it might mean if insiders are right or wrong, let it happen, see what transpires and reach conclusions based on that. No one (I assume) has a gun to your head and is forcing you to pass judgment at this instant.

gumby wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

PHXCATS wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

PHXCATS wrote:Yes but the two we are most concerned with are not first round projection and all insiders are saying they are likely gone. No insiders are saying they are likely coming back.

I do think it is a potential issues, I will say that at risk of sounding dumb again like yesterday, that three non projected first rounders are likely leaving early per insiders.

I said 182 players declared early for that reason. The idea that early entries are a big issues...well, college ball has a ton of early entries. Getting stressed about people testing the waters before they actually go and inferring issues from that is a bit out there for me.

The process will unfold.

Because insiders are saying they are gone and no one has then as first rounders.

If the insiders were saying things like with Trier before it would be totally different. They are saying they think they are gone when they will in all likelihood be undrafted or late second rounders. They are not saying they will probably come back and just want the evaluation unless they project to be first rounders.

What if the insiders are actually ASU operatives trying to destabilize Arizona basketball's hold on the Arcadia Tavern by sowing seeds of doubt?

THE PROCESS WILL UNFOLD. A crazy number of kids declared. Instead of pooping our pants over what it might mean if insiders are right or wrong, let it happen, see what transpires and reach conclusions based on that. No one (I assume) has a gun to your head and is forcing you to pass judgment at this instant.

Oooh. A virtual curtain of distraction, with a Russian twist. An Iron Curtain of Distraction.

EVCat wrote:

Merkin wrote:Athletic Department has tutors, and every test on file. Apparently the Greeks do too.

I signed up for an Anthro 100 class that when I showed up was full of Greeks and athletes.

Class was maybe 1/3rd full after the first day.

Same with an astronomy class I took. Out of 100 seats in class, there was maybe 8 there on the first Friday. I never showed up Friday after that.

There are also "Student Brokers" who arrange for everything for a student, paid by mom and dad's dime. They sub-contract school work (papers, online classes, etc) to people who do that for a living. Really. Athletes very rarely are involved in this as most brokers/paper writers are not really into seeing their name on Sportscenter with half the team threatening their lives. But a number of Greeks and other well positioned students have used these services, with the really elite parents of fuck-ups paying $10s of thousands a semester to a broker to simply make sure their kid gets a degree and, oh...bail him out of jail occasionally.

Then there are the classes designed for this...I took a "History of Sports in Society" class where prof told us day one the lowest grade you could get in the class is a C. If you wrote the midterm paper, you got a B, then you could take the final and an 80% would combine with the paper (not graded) to give you an A. There was more than one athlete in that class. It was at 8 am in McKale. I came the first day, the day I turned in my paper for midterm, and the final...and got an A. Attended 3 times. There were people I saw the first day that I saw for the paper hand in class or the final, not both (take the B), or that never showed again (I doubt they dropped).

I also have known of students taking full online course loads while travelling. Log in for a live chat with the prof, turn in your paper, take the tests at a Kaplan, and you are good. My nephew got his Masters from USC in Aerospace Engineering without stepping foot on campus one single day.

PHXCATS wrote:Transfers Out since Miller came to Arizona

UNC 3
Kentucky 7
Duke 7
Kansas 8
Louisville 12
Arizona 12

I dont like UNC but would love that culture

rgdeuce wrote:

PHXCATS wrote:Transfers Out since Miller came to Arizona

UNC 3
Kentucky 7
Duke 7
Kansas 8
Louisville 12
Arizona 12

I dont like UNC but would love that culture

I'll give an easy explanation without racking my brain and it may be probably pretty close to what is going on. Look at the top four schools, blue bloods. You know you are going into an absolutely loaded situation. UNC is at the top of the list because as we know, you get your degree from a fine institution that doesn't make their college BBall players do shit. Why leave? Kentucky has less than us because nearly every year, they have an insane amount of early entrants into the NBA. So what if you only played 10 MPG as a frosh, 7 guys just left and things are wide open. Duke is a fine institution and in most cases, the kids who go there are super intelligent and value a Duke diploma. Arizona and Louisville are generally thought of as the tier just below those programs above. You know you are going to a great school, but you also expect more playing time because they are NOT Duke, Kentucky, Kansas or UNC. When you get there and realize they are as talented as those teams and Pitino and Miller demand you play defense if you want to see the floor, you realize taking what you perceived to be the easier route really wasn't that, and you go somewhere easier.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

PHXCATS wrote:Yes but the two we are most concerned with are not first round projection and all insiders are saying they are likely gone. No insiders are saying they are likely coming back.

I do think it is a potential issues, I will say that at risk of sounding dumb again like yesterday, that three non projected first rounders are likely leaving early per insiders.

I said 182 players declared early for that reason. The idea that early entries are a big issues...well, college ball has a ton of early entries. Getting stressed about people testing the waters before they actually go and inferring issues from that is a bit out there for me.

The process will unfold.

Longhorned wrote:What some of you guys write about professors and athletes doesn't seem real. I teach a lot of football players, including some very recognizable ones, and I don't know why they keep taking my classes if there are fake classes taught by stooges of the athletics department. I have to report on the athletes' progress, and when they don't do well, a staff member gets on their asses immediately and helps me get them back on track. And I can see why other students in the class don't think the players are ever in my classes, but there's a transparent policy about alternative accommodations and alternative exams, and none of it is fake.

Longhorned wrote:What some of you guys write about professors and athletes doesn't seem real. I teach a lot of football players, including some very recognizable ones, and I don't know why they keep taking my classes if there are fake classes taught by stooges of the athletics department. I have to report on the athletes' progress, and when they don't do well, a staff member gets on their asses immediately and helps me get them back on track. And I can see why other students in the class don't think the players are ever in my classes, but there's a transparent policy about alternative accommodations and alternative exams, and none of it is fake.

CalStateTempe wrote:

Longhorned wrote:What some of you guys write about professors and athletes doesn't seem real. I teach a lot of football players, including some very recognizable ones, and I don't know why they keep taking my classes if there are fake classes taught by stooges of the athletics department. I have to report on the athletes' progress, and when they don't do well, a staff member gets on their asses immediately and helps me get them back on track. And I can see why other students in the class don't think the players are ever in my classes, but there's a transparent policy about alternative accommodations and alternative exams, and none of it is fake.

Question: is that alternative policy available for all students or just athletics?

I had to negotiate with all me teachers at the time for 2weeks prior to the mcat, so I could spend every waking hour getting in game shape for a test that would determine if I could go to Med school or not? Most professors understood and let me handle my business independent of showing up, but a few were real dicks about to. Took the temp hit on my grades and stayed in the library anyway.

But what is the difference between someone playing ball trying to get to the league vs a student trying to get into their desired profession. Yes I know I'm not making money for the school at the moment in time.

Longhorned wrote:What some of you guys write about professors and athletes doesn't seem real. I teach a lot of football players, including some very recognizable ones, and I don't know why they keep taking my classes if there are fake classes taught by stooges of the athletics department. I have to report on the athletes' progress, and when they don't do well, a staff member gets on their asses immediately and helps me get them back on track. And I can see why other students in the class don't think the players are ever in my classes, but there's a transparent policy about alternative accommodations and alternative exams, and none of it is fake.

CalStateTempe wrote:Thanks LH, appreciate it.

I guess it goes back to our discussion about how taking attendence in college is stupid.