2017-2018 Arizona Basketball

[YoDeFoe]

I may be fooling myself to have a explanation, but here goes:

The personality of this group of players is softer than most levels of softness reached by the vast majority of soft teams. That’s a result of a gap between very young players new to the system and seniors who are wholly unprepared to lead them, which is a rare quality in seniors. The bridge between them is Trier, who is an interstitial wing player who needs a place in a system that he can’t build or maintain because his very purpose is to exploit the spaces between the supporting members. What we’re seeing now results from a lack of leadership in the face of adversity in the first game. You don’t fix bad effort on defense by starting to defend but not thinking to rebound on the miss. Unless the upperclassmen start to rally around a freshman, or Rawle can establish himself as the floor leader, my guess is this problem can’t be fixed.

co-signed

[DiehardDave37]

I know it is probably meaningless, but we better hear about a players only meeting after this mess:

Who would call it? As opposed to who should call it? The seniors should call it, but could Trier and Alkins call it? Pinder could certainly be a leader in that. He isn't a star, but is definitely filling his role.
One could argue that Ristic is too. By now, they are what they are. I think I just convinced myself that the seniors should call it despite their faults which we have already known.

[DiehardDave37]

could use someone like justin simon right about now

He might be leading the Johnnies in rebounds and minutes played.

[ChooChooCat]

I may be fooling myself to have a explanation, but here goes:

The personality of this group of players is softer than most levels of softness reached by the vast majority of soft teams. That’s a result of a gap between very young players new to the system and seniors who are wholly unprepared to lead them, which is a rare quality in seniors. The bridge between them is Trier, who is an interstitial wing player who needs a place in a system that he can’t build or maintain because his very purpose is to exploit the spaces between the supporting members. What we’re seeing now results from a lack of leadership in the face of adversity in the first game. You don’t fix bad effort on defense by starting to defend but not thinking to rebound on the miss. Unless the upperclassmen start to rally around a freshman, or Rawle can establish himself as the floor leader, my guess is this problem can’t be fixed.

I missed this post and while every thing within the program is quite radio silent due to current circumstances this is the most plausible scenario we're looking at.

[zonagrad]

I may be fooling myself to have a explanation, but here goes:

The personality of this group of players is softer than most levels of softness reached by the vast majority of soft teams. That’s a result of a gap between very young players new to the system and seniors who are wholly unprepared to lead them, which is a rare quality in seniors. The bridge between them is Trier, who is an interstitial wing player who needs a place in a system that he can’t build or maintain because his very purpose is to exploit the spaces between the supporting members. What we’re seeing now results from a lack of leadership in the face of adversity in the first game. You don’t fix bad effort on defense by starting to defend but not thinking to rebound on the miss. Unless the upperclassmen start to rally around a freshman, or Rawle can establish himself as the floor leader, my guess is this problem can’t be fixed.

I missed this post and while every thing within the program is quite radio silent due to current circumstances this is the most plausible scenario we're looking at.

I made a similar post regarding Trier. For this team to turn things around, Trier's role needs to change. He can't dominate the ball. If that's the path the rest of the season, I see Trier having some monster games and Trier having some awful games. But that doesn't help the team. In fact, we'll very much resemble the 2016 season where we were good when Gabe York shot lights out and we were dreadful when he was so-so.

Trier needs to empty himself and decide he's going to get his points by not demanding the ball. He needs to take appropriate shots and drive at appropriate times. But the offense CANNOT revolve around him. It needs to start with Ayton and to some extent, Ristic in the post. If the ball goes inside every possession, we can't be stopped. And furthermore, Trier will likely get more wide open looks and better opportunities to score if he's not the first option. Trier should target his efforts on defense, rebounding both ends of the floor and getting everyone involved. The points will come just the same if he takes this route.

[CalStateTempe]

Frankly I don't get all the flack pinder gets around here.

He's not NBA talent but he's a key cog in the wheel and at least gives a damn. He's good for about 10-15min per game and fouls to give IMO.

[FreeSpiritCat]

Frankly I don't get all the flack pinder gets around here.

He's not NBA talent but he's a key cog in the wheel and at least gives a damn. He's good for about 10-15min per game and fouls to give IMO.

And he can play enforcer to some degree. Rebound too.

[DiehardDave37]

Amen to the last 2 posts.

[RondaeShimmy]

pinder has more fouls than points and rebounds, so I guess that's what he is doing

[PHXCATS]

So almost all the players suck but not the guy picking out the players?

[Merkin]

Pinder has 14 points this season, with 17 rebounds, 1 assist, 5 blocks, 17 personal fouls, and 4 turnovers in 75 minutes.

[legallykenny]

Frankly I don't get all the flack pinder gets around here.

He's not NBA talent but he's a key cog in the wheel and at least gives a damn. He's good for about 10-15min per game and fouls to give IMO.

I think the point is that Sean can’t recruit guys better than him that will stay for more than two years.
Culture problems.

[Beachcat97]

Frankly I don't get all the flack pinder gets around here.

He's not NBA talent but he's a key cog in the wheel and at least gives a damn. He's good for about 10-15min per game and fouls to give IMO.

I think the point is that Sean can’t recruit guys better than him that will stay for more than two years.
Culture problems.

Is there any program that can recruit better players who will stay more than two years? Is this really an Arizona thing? Seems like it's just the culture of the sport.

[legallykenny]

Frankly I don't get all the flack pinder gets around here.

He's not NBA talent but he's a key cog in the wheel and at least gives a damn. He's good for about 10-15min per game and fouls to give IMO.

I think the point is that Sean can’t recruit guys better than him that will stay for more than two years.
Culture problems.

Is there any program that can recruit better players who will stay more than two years? Is this really an Arizona thing? Seems like it's just the culture of the sport.

Are other programs losing guys like Kobi and Chance? Victor didn’t even stay for a full season before fleeing. Simon didn’t stay much longer.
Do we lose those three games if they are still here?
Recruiting Duke and Kentucky’s left overs and with bad attitudes and selling the program as a pit stop is on Miller.

[Beachcat97]

Are other programs losing guys like Kobi and Chance? Victor didn’t even stay for a full season before fleeing. Simon didn’t stay much longer.
Do we lose those three games if they are still here?
Recruiting Duke and Kentucky’s left overs and with bad attitudes and selling the program as a pit stop is on Miller.

Did you really just refer to our recent and current players as "Duke and Kentucky's left overs"?

Think that's a stretch, bro. Plenty of guys have chosen AZ over other elite programs in recent years.

[SunnyAZ]

Florida was running Duke out the gym then Coach K went to a zone to ruin their rhythm and it worked! Then they went back to man and now are winning before the 2nd half even started! How are they ever gonna get back those 5 minutes of zone defense to get better at man defense?

[legallykenny]

Are other programs losing guys like Kobi and Chance? Victor didn’t even stay for a full season before fleeing. Simon didn’t stay much longer.
Do we lose those three games if they are still here?
Recruiting Duke and Kentucky’s left overs and with bad attitudes and selling the program as a pit stop is on Miller.

Did you really just refer to our recent and current players as "Duke and Kentucky's left overs"?

Think that's a stretch, bro. Plenty of guys have chosen AZ over other elite programs in recent years.

Yes. Do you think the guys we have recruited other than Gordon and Markkanen are as good as the players those programs have recruited? Do you think they just might have passed on character issue guys like Kobi and Ferguson?

If they are then our lack of results compared to those schools means Sean is a mediocre coach.

Pick your poison.

[Beachcat97]

Are other programs losing guys like Kobi and Chance? Victor didn’t even stay for a full season before fleeing. Simon didn’t stay much longer.
Do we lose those three games if they are still here?
Recruiting Duke and Kentucky’s left overs and with bad attitudes and selling the program as a pit stop is on Miller.

Did you really just refer to our recent and current players as "Duke and Kentucky's left overs"?

Think that's a stretch, bro. Plenty of guys have chosen AZ over other elite programs in recent years.

Yes. Do you think the guys we have recruited other than Gordon and Markkanen are as good as the players those programs have recruited? Do you think they just might have passed on character issue guys like Kobi and Ferguson?

If they are then our lack of results compared to those schools means Sean is a mediocre coach.

Pick your poison.

Stanley Johnson, RH Jefferson, Ayton, Alkins...pretty sure these are guys Duke and UK would've taken in a heartbeat. Do UK and Duke get more of these players? Yes. But I think that's also a stretch to say that UK is passing on guys with character issues. Duke, maybe. But not UK. Calipari has an open invitation to the entire McD's AA team.

[TatetheGreat]

Most of the top programs have capable upperclassmen. Kentucky is the exception. We've had a few core guys stay 3+ years (Zeus, Ashley, NJ, Trier) but we need role players who can develop into starters by their junior and senior years. I think Barcello and Lee should be those guys for us. We need a couple of those 3-4 year guys every class and high-level transfers like TJ when available.

[TatetheGreat]

Florida up 10 on Duke. Winning with juniors and seniors despite being way undersized. Experience often beats talent in NCAA.

[RiseAndFire]

As I'm digesting what could be the source of the problem, something obvious is surfacing. It deals with recruiting, and especially deals with one-and-done players. This can be seen in hindsight and its result becomes a radical inconsistency from year to year. The turnover of players is so high at Arizona that you just don't know what you are going to get, and the players can't develop together fully as a team (iso ball is the sign of the times at elite levels). You can have all the talent in the world but if you don't get the right mix of players everything can fall apart. You can't just consider ranking of the players either for each position. You also have to look at each player's mental and emotional IQ, for there is a mental and emotional aspect to the game. And these types of qualities aren't valued as much as talent. That is a big mistake. The mental aspect of being scrappy is important too when considering a recruit. How about an enforcer? Give me more players who want to work hard, and have a high basketball IQ, but maybe not as talented , and want to stay in college to develop their game (TJ McConnell). And less players who have NBA stars in their eyes. Maybe one lottery pick as the catalyst, possible two if they compliment each other.

IMO, CSM needs to reassess the way he recruits. Maybe not looking so much for talent as how the players will fit into a team mold. This year we need a scrappy player, and more players who take pride playing stifling defense, or who demand the rebound. Something we severely lack. We also don't have an enforcer.

One point I'd make, Cith, is that AZ is certainly not the only program going after the greatest number of "talented" players year after year. Duke, UK, Kansas, UNC, et al. -- the majority of the players they're targeting are ranked in the top 50 nationally. Yet somehow, it's worked out for these teams. More so UK and Duke than the others, in terms of programs who are now utterly dependent on one-and-done talent. Duke is all in on Bagley, Carter, and Duval. When they beat UT yesterday, they had five freshmen on the floor at the end of the game; Allen was on the bench. And next year, they're all in on Barrett, Reddish, and Jones. Do you really think there's some kind of calculus to determine which combination of these elite players will play well together? All they can do is recruit for a spot; sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. UK is all in on Knox, Richards, and Washington this year; either these freshmen gel and find their groove or they flame out early and try again next year. How is a recruiting class of Ayton, Akot, Randolph, Lee, and Barcello different from what's going on at these other programs who've won national titles? It isn't.

The jury is obviously still out on this freshmen group of Cats. They could turn things around in the next couple months and go a long way towards repairing the damage done this past week.

With so much season left to play, there is a golden opportunity for Miller to hit the reset button, get back to basics, and start rebuilding morale. I've never questioned whether Miller struggles to inspire morale because his players seem to like playing for him. We're "a player's program," right? Well, if this is true, then our coach has to find ways to help these players reach their fullest potential this season. PJC is never going to be a good PG; he's an average player who once in a blue moon does something noteworthy. Ristic's limitations have been well documented. That's the bad news. The good news is that Ayton and Trier are elite players. I'm not sure what happened to AT in the Bahamas; he seemed timid and shaky, very unlike him. He'll get his swag back. Akot, Lee, Barcello, Smith...yeah, we need these guys to play hard and smart when they're on the floor. And Miller and the coaches have to work with the freshmen and make them believe they can impact the game.

Anyway, if some are unhappy with our recruiting philosophy, I find that strange since we're following the championship formula used by Duke and UK.

The issue with the recruiting isn't that one-and-done philosophy doesn't work, it is that the one-and-done PLAYER doesn't work in Miller's mid-major scheme.

Here we have a system that generates minimal turnovers, minimal transition opportunities (read: easy buckets that oh by the way neutralize a zone defense), and often results in the biggest and slowest players at the 3 point line trying to hedge and recover instead of in the paint, leading to easy points in the paint against our biggest lineup ironically. This is a system tailor made for 3-star type players that don't thrive in transition basketball.

[TucsonClip]

Florida up 10 on Duke. Winning with juniors and seniors despite being way undersized. Experience often beats talent in NCAA.

Florida is taking full advantage of Duke with its shooting, spacing, and actions. Everything they run is based from the free throw line up, and it clears the paint for their cuts and drives. Beautiful to watch.

[TatetheGreat]

Florida up 10 on Duke. Winning with juniors and seniors despite being way undersized. Experience often beats talent in NCAA.

Florida is taking full advantage of Duke with its shooting, spacing, and actions. Everything they run is based from the free throw line up, and it clears the paint for their cuts and drives. Beautiful to watch.

Yeah, Mike White can coach his ass off. Great hire for UF.

[TatetheGreat]

Duke stormed back and got some turnovers to ice it. Good game. No doubt who deserves #1 now.

[SCCats]

Florida up 10 on Duke. Winning with juniors and seniors despite being way undersized. Experience often beats talent in NCAA.

I think recruiting guys that are highly talented but undersized for the NBA (like a 6'2" SG as an example) who will be around for three plus years is not at all a bad way to fill some of your roster spots.

I actually think there's quite a bit of recruiting theory and roster theory that we are whiffing on.

[legallykenny]

Are other programs losing guys like Kobi and Chance? Victor didn’t even stay for a full season before fleeing. Simon didn’t stay much longer.
Do we lose those three games if they are still here?
Recruiting Duke and Kentucky’s left overs and with bad attitudes and selling the program as a pit stop is on Miller.

Did you really just refer to our recent and current players as "Duke and Kentucky's left overs"?

Think that's a stretch, bro. Plenty of guys have chosen AZ over other elite programs in recent years.

Yes. Do you think the guys we have recruited other than Gordon and Markkanen are as good as the players those programs have recruited? Do you think they just might have passed on character issue guys like Kobi and Ferguson?

If they are then our lack of results compared to those schools means Sean is a mediocre coach.

Pick your poison.

Stanley Johnson, RH Jefferson, Ayton, Alkins...pretty sure these are guys Duke and UK would've taken in a heartbeat. Do UK and Duke get more of these players? Yes. But I think that's also a stretch to say that UK is passing on guys with character issues. Duke, maybe. But not UK. Calipari has an open invitation to the entire McD's AA team.

Really who has UK had a problem with? Cal kept 8 draft picks on a roster and happy.
Sean has undrafted guys leaving and guys transferring the second they don’t get a start.

And your views in talent seem to be just as correlated with rankings as Sean’s. Maybe you should watch the guys on the floor. Have you seen Stanley’s actual game stats? Dude was massively overrated. Or going to Arizona retarded his development. Again, choose your poison.

If we had 5 Gordons and RHJs on this team we wouldn’t be in this situation or having this conversation. The problem is everything that has come since.

[legallykenny]

Florida up 10 on Duke. Winning with juniors and seniors despite being way undersized. Experience often beats talent in NCAA.

I think recruiting guys that are highly talented but undersized for the NBA (like a 6'2" SG as an example) who will be around for three plus years is not at all a bad way to fill some of your roster spots.

I actually think there's quite a bit of recruiting theory and roster theory that we are whiffing on.

One and dones work when they’re good enough to be. When they think they are that good but aren’t, then you have a problem.

[Beachcat97]

Really who has UK had a problem with? Cal kept 8 draft picks on a roster and happy.
Sean has undrafted guys leaving and guys transferring the second they don’t get a start.

And your views in talent seem to be just as correlated with rankings as Sean’s. Maybe you should watch the guys on the floor. Have you seen Stanley’s actual game stats? Dude was massively overrated. Or going to Arizona retarded his development. Again, choose your poison.

You make a good point about our guys leaving early and going undrafted. No idea what's going on there. Are we recruiting guys who have zero interest in going to classes? Pretty sure Chance left because he knew Ayton was coming and Ristic was staying. His minutes would've been the same as or less than last season.

SJ was overrated? Sorry, "massively overrated"? He was Pac FOY and first-team All-Pac. What are you talking about, bro? He now starts for the Detroit Pistons. Am I missing something?

[SCCats]

Florida up 10 on Duke. Winning with juniors and seniors despite being way undersized. Experience often beats talent in NCAA.

I think recruiting guys that are highly talented but undersized for the NBA (like a 6'2" SG as an example) who will be around for three plus years is not at all a bad way to fill some of your roster spots.

I actually think there's quite a bit of recruiting theory and roster theory that we are whiffing on.

One and dones work when they’re good enough to be. When they think they are that good but aren’t, then you have a problem.

Agree 100%

[legallykenny]

Really who has UK had a problem with? Cal kept 8 draft picks on a roster and happy.
Sean has undrafted guys leaving and guys transferring the second they don’t get a start.

And your views in talent seem to be just as correlated with rankings as Sean’s. Maybe you should watch the guys on the floor. Have you seen Stanley’s actual game stats? Dude was massively overrated. Or going to Arizona retarded his development. Again, choose your poison.

You make a good point about our guys leaving early and going undrafted. No idea what's going on there. Are we recruiting guys who have zero interest in going to classes? Pretty sure Chance left because he knew Ayton was coming and Ristic was staying. His minutes would've been the same as or less than last season.

SJ was overrated? Sorry, "massively overrated"? He was Pac FOY and first-team All-Pac. What are you talking about, bro? He now starts for the Detroit Pistons. Am I missing something?

His 8.3 PER this year for a start. Good for 13th on his team.

[Beachcat97]

His 8.3 PER this year for a start. Good for 13th on his team.

Not really seeing your point, Kenny. Is it somehow Miller’s fault that SJ hasn’t yet found his niche at the next level?

[HiCat]

Concerns piling up for Cats after rough trip to Bahamas

By Bruce Pascoe Arizona Daily Star Nov 26, 2017 Updated 8 hrs ago

Here’s five concerns that might be on that list:
1. The offense is unbalanced.

2. They can’t shoot 3s.
Overall, the Wildcats shot just 22.0 percent from 3-point range over their three games in the Bahamas, with Trier 3 for 16.

3. Their defense just isn’t very good.

The UA gave up 44.7 percent shooting to its three Atlantis opponents and was particularly carved up in the final game against Purdue — when the Boilermakers worked the ball around well enough to find open shots that led to 57.4 percent shooting overall, including half of its 3-pointers.


4. PJC needs more help.

5. The elephant
in the room.
http://tucson.com/sports/arizonawildcat ... 0ac23.html" target="_blank

[Longhorned]

The whole myth of the bad fan needs to be questioned. You’re no better for the team nor yourself nor your fandom if you keep believing in this team. Just stop watching and start ignoring. If they turn it around, they can earn you back. Otherwise this is all at your expense for nothing in return. Your family deserves better than your moping.

[Alieberman]

I picked a good week to be away from TV, UofA sports.

As far as I'm concerned, this week didn't happen.

[DiehardDave37]

The whole myth of the bad fan needs to be questioned. You’re no better for the team nor yourself nor your fandom if you keep believing in this team. Just stop watching and start ignoring. If they turn it around, they can earn you back. Otherwise this is all at your expense for nothing in return. Your family deserves better than your moping.

Thanks for the tip, but I'll keep on believing since I have no family here to see me mope.

[Bear Down Vegas]

So almost all the players suck but not the guy picking out the players?

I feel like I've said this before but only one of two things can be true - your trolling game is weak as shit, or you're an idiot.

No one here is saying the first part of your ridiculous post & the second part is...well, see my statement above.

Will a couple beers help you be less worse? I've offered before & I am still buying.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Florida up 10 on Duke. Winning with juniors and seniors despite being way undersized. Experience often beats talent in NCAA.

I think recruiting guys that are highly talented but undersized for the NBA (like a 6'2" SG as an example) who will be around for three plus years is not at all a bad way to fill some of your roster spots.

I actually think there's quite a bit of recruiting theory and roster theory that we are whiffing on.

Just on the current roster, PJC, Trier, Lee, Pinder and Barcello are all undersized for the NBA in the way you reference.

Our roster composition is fine IMO. We have vets who have played on good teams. It just isn't working so far.

[PHXCATS]

So almost all the players suck but not the guy picking out the players?

I feel like I've said this before but only one of two things can be true - your trolling game is weak as shit, or you're an idiot.

No one here is saying the first part of your ridiculous post & the second part is...well, see my statement above.

Will a couple beers help you be less worse? I've offered before & I am still buying.

Would love to grab a beer or two if UA is in the Vegas bowl.

I don't think Miller sucks as I have said many many times. But I have seen here that every player sucks or isnt Arizona good or whatever except Ayton. Lee, Trier, Smith, Akot, PJC, Pinder, Ristic, Randolph, Barcello all have been mentioned. I don't think all those guys suck and I trust Miller to figure out how to best utilize everyone in time if he is willing to adjust. But if all those guys suck, wouldn't the guy offering them suck as well? Seems we as a whole are very selective in blame based on who we like and don't and not on actual merit.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Concerns piling up for Cats after rough trip to Bahamas

By Bruce Pascoe Arizona Daily Star Nov 26, 2017 Updated 8 hrs ago

Here’s five concerns that might be on that list:
1. The offense is unbalanced.

2. They can’t shoot 3s.
Overall, the Wildcats shot just 22.0 percent from 3-point range over their three games in the Bahamas, with Trier 3 for 16.

3. Their defense just isn’t very good.

The UA gave up 44.7 percent shooting to its three Atlantis opponents and was particularly carved up in the final game against Purdue — when the Boilermakers worked the ball around well enough to find open shots that led to 57.4 percent shooting overall, including half of its 3-pointers.


4. PJC needs more help.

5. The elephant
in the room.
http://tucson.com/sports/arizonawildcat ... 0ac23.html" target="_blank

This article confirms that Pascoe can't write an article about Arizona basketball without mentioning the FBI investigation.

[Merkin]

It's no wonder Miller gained all that weight back.

[SCCats]

Florida up 10 on Duke. Winning with juniors and seniors despite being way undersized. Experience often beats talent in NCAA.

I think recruiting guys that are highly talented but undersized for the NBA (like a 6'2" SG as an example) who will be around for three plus years is not at all a bad way to fill some of your roster spots.

I actually think there's quite a bit of recruiting theory and roster theory that we are whiffing on.

Just on the current roster, PJC, Trier, Lee, Pinder and Barcello are all undersized for the NBA in the way you reference.

Yes, “the contributors.” Perhaps we need more contributors. Perhaps we need to focus harder on who those contributors might be, not just in year one but two and three.

Or we can just keep doing this, expecting different results.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Florida up 10 on Duke. Winning with juniors and seniors despite being way undersized. Experience often beats talent in NCAA.

I think recruiting guys that are highly talented but undersized for the NBA (like a 6'2" SG as an example) who will be around for three plus years is not at all a bad way to fill some of your roster spots.

I actually think there's quite a bit of recruiting theory and roster theory that we are whiffing on.

Just on the current roster, PJC, Trier, Lee, Pinder and Barcello are all undersized for the NBA in the way you reference.

Yes, “the contributors.” Perhaps we need more contributors. Perhaps we need to focus harder on who those contributors might be, not just in year one but two and three.

Or we can just keep doing this, expecting different results.

Look, last week was unpleasant, but the returning players have won a lot of games on a high level. If you want to say things are bad now, fine, but that also requires acknowledging the high level of success our upperclassmen have had prior to last week.

I just think a lot of this boils down to being mad we lost, not that there's some underlying issue. You say we need undersized kids who will stay. Half our rotation is undersized kids who either haven't left for the NBA or are unlikely to.

Then it turns to that we're recruiting the wrong undersized kids. Well, they produced before. This is unhappiness with last week's results. We stumble around more, people will look to assign more blame. We pull it together and look like a top five team, the bandwagon fills again.

[SCCats]

Ha, the bandwagon. Like this hasn’t been an issue we’ve been talking about for three years.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Ha, the bandwagon. Like this hasn’t been an issue we’ve been talking about for three years.

I think it's revisionist history to pretend like last year wasn't a pretty damn good year. In terms of roster composition, we had a senior leader in Kadeem, PJC and Dusan as junior starters and Trier as a returner. In today's CBB landscape, 3 upperclassmen starters and a total of 7 years in the program for a starting lineup isn't half bad.

[SCCats]

Ha, the bandwagon. Like this hasn’t been an issue we’ve been talking about for three years.

I think it's revisionist history to pretend like last year wasn't a pretty damn good year. In terms of roster composition, we had a senior leader in Kadeem, PJC and Dusan as junior starters and Trier as a returner. In today's CBB landscape, 3 upperclassmen starters and a total of 7 years in the program for a starting lineup isn't half bad.

And what about the year before that?

[Spaceman Spiff]

Ha, the bandwagon. Like this hasn’t been an issue we’ve been talking about for three years.

I think it's revisionist history to pretend like last year wasn't a pretty damn good year. In terms of roster composition, we had a senior leader in Kadeem, PJC and Dusan as junior starters and Trier as a returner. In today's CBB landscape, 3 upperclassmen starters and a total of 7 years in the program for a starting lineup isn't half bad.

And what about the year before that?

Kaleb Tarczewski and Gabe York were senior starters. Kadeem was a junior starter. Again, 3 upperclassmen starters.

The results were not as good, but programs have down years. When you have 1 seed, 2 seed, down year, 2 seed, I think it's fair to see that year as a down year among some very good ones.

[PHXCATS]

To think Miller is unquestionable and doesn't need to adjust is amazing. I am not okay with a program like Arizona just being content with regular season conference titles.

[SCCats]

So equivocation then?

Our problems are the type to be expected over an appropriately considered time horizon?

Shrug. It’s one way to go.

[Bear Down Vegas]

So almost all the players suck but not the guy picking out the players?

I feel like I've said this before but only one of two things can be true - your trolling game is weak as shit, or you're an idiot.

No one here is saying the first part of your ridiculous post & the second part is...well, see my statement above.

Will a couple beers help you be less worse? I've offered before & I am still buying.

Would love to grab a beer or two if UA is in the Vegas bowl.

I don't think Miller sucks as I have said many many times. But I have seen here that every player sucks or isnt Arizona good or whatever except Ayton. Lee, Trier, Smith, Akot, PJC, Pinder, Ristic, Randolph, Barcello all have been mentioned. I don't think all those guys suck and I trust Miller to figure out how to best utilize everyone in time if he is willing to adjust. But if all those guys suck, wouldn't the guy offering them suck as well? Seems we as a whole are very selective in blame based on who we like and don't and not on actual merit.

We've hijacked this thread a tad into our own conversation but this reply is easier to digest - so thank you for that. We still disagree, but at least you proved me wrong it was one of two things. I'd love to grab drinks Mach.

I think the overall conversation of the thread as a whole is closer but I don't agree with it wholly either. I've been a 'Cat hoops fan since '86. All the ups & downs. Both Lute & Sean make a living coaching kids. Helping them learn the game, get an education & ideally, get to the show or make a living overseas. They've both done tremendous jobs in my opinion.

3 losses in a row sucks balls. I've been miserable. But it's also my humble opinion that it's not "on Miller" or "on any said player".

It's sports & on top of that - a fraud of amateur sports - of youths. I'll probably die the Pollyanna - but just let it play out. It's not even f'n December yet. The players are talented, the coach is pretty awesome (just not perfect) & we all should chill the fuck out.

Again - just my opinion.

Cheers,

BDV

[PHXCATS]

I will say this so it is clear. I think Miller has been very good. But adjustments clearly need to be made this year to get to the next level.