Bear Down Wildcats

midnightx wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:59 pm It is a smart play. This is a strange, somewhat lost season for college basketball. Arizona basketball is presently going through a transition. This is not a championship level squad. Take a hit now when it matters less, rather than later on when it will potentially hurt more. It might also help with recruiting because recruits for 21 and 22 won't be concerned with the uncertainty of missing the tournament due to sanctions. The NCAA will not be content with this announcement because it wants blood from Arizona (for some reason more than the other teams associated with the FBI investigation), but an arbitrator is going to have to strongly take this into account when levying future penalties, if the process leads to a conclusion that more is warranted, such as a loss of scholarships or vacated wins.

Agreed on all of this. I think it lets you tell an arbitrator that you voluntarily imposed basically what the NCAA gave Oklahoma State, and that is enough.

The core of our issue is almost exactly what Ok. St.'s punishment was for. They're actually appealing, so we can even make an argument we did something they don't want to take.

We do it at a time the tourney is active and we are competitive for it. We lose a potential tourney bid in which our ceiling was probably Sweet 16. If the tourney blows up and is restricted in # or doesn't happen, we can still argue our sanction.

I feel for the players. I hope basically all return, but this sucks for guys like Ira and Terrell Brown. Hopefully we just continue to build.

Chicat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:30 pm Thanks Larry.

Well, I'm certain there will be no fans at the Pac 12 tourney.

Potentially due to Covid restrictions. That part remains to be hashed out.

Chicat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:30 pm Thanks Larry.

Nah that’s always the case. When you ban yourself from the postseason, it’s all postseason play. You can’t have a team banned from the NCAA tournament having a chance to win what amounts to an automatic bid to the tournament obviously.

Maybe our Prez is more Machiavellian than we realize. He was taking serious heat with the Jedd Fisch hire. Less than a week later he decides to impose a post season ban on our basketball team after years of fighting the NCAA...interesting timing.

ChooChooCat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:27 pm

dmjcat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:31 pm

ChooChooCat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:37 pm Congrats dmjcat, you got what you’ve been crying for years for. I don’t know what made this occur now. I think the thoughts of a “deal” being made with the NCAA is far fetched. I guess we’ll see.

Hopefully the IARP sees it as a viable enough punishment, that’s all that matters.

Crying for?? No, I was RATIONALLY calling for self sanctions.

If you want to see crying go back and look at your response to my original suggestion to self sanction for the 18 NCAA tourney...now THAT was crying.

The decision to self sanction was the correct one (in my opinion) although it was nearly 3 years late. Had we sanctioned in 18 we would have largely avoided the 3 year drip, drip, drip Chinese torture inflicted on us my ESPN and the rest of the blithering idiot-talking heads. In the end the adults in the UA boardroom prevailed (probably egged on by the lawyers).

Hopefully Spiff is correct and this will largely end the 3 year nightmare. Continuing down the path of doing nothing would have only continued to negatively affect recruiting and invite more negative press from the usual suspects. The only sensible thing to do once Books transgressions became public was to put the entire mess behind us as quickly as possible. Hopefully todays actions will largely take care of that.

Sucks that we won't have the opportunity to see the Cats in the tourney next year (assuming its even held or the UA makes it)

What if the IARP says thanks for banning yourself, but it’s not good enough, here’s another year. How would you feel after that? Also you’ve been a crying bitch about this for years, so yes crying is the appropriate word to describe what you’ve been doing for a long time about this.

Either way I’ve had this explained to me like a baby and this decision isn’t without logic, because the Ok State penalties ensured we were always getting a year ban and next years team is way more likely for big tourney success than this one. The risk very much exists that we’ll get sanctioned another year anyways, but if it all works out then you, my dipshit friend, will have been right all along. I can stomach that.

Are you STILL crying about the fact that you were DEAD WRONG about not self sanctioning back in 18?? It would be good for you to admit it.

If the IARP does give us another year we are STILL better off. If we hadn't self sanctioned for 1 year the IARP would give us 2 years and we would have yet another recruiting class go up in smoke.

Just to engage in a little bit of hindsight what if we had self sanctioned in 18??

1) We would have avoided the embarrassing ass-kicking at the hands of Buffalo
2) We would have largely avoided 3 years of negative press
3) We would have largely negated the negative recruiting we have faced over the past 3 years
4) We would be eligible to play in this years PAC12 tourney and NCAA tourney.

Seems pretty obvious to me.

Happy New Year.

ChooChooCat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:43 pm

Chicat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:30 pm Thanks Larry.

Nah that’s always the case. When you ban yourself from the postseason, it’s all postseason play. You can’t have a team banned from the NCAA tournament having a chance to win what amounts to an automatic bid to the tournament obviously.

I still hate Larry Scott. Don’t really need another reason at this point.

Self-sanctioning is still ridiculously stupid. You can hindsight yourself until you’re dizzy but it doesn’t matter. Nothing Book was accused of gave us an advantage on the court. We are now punishing kids who weren’t even looking at playing at UA (or in some cases America) when Book was pulling his bullshit that did nothing to give the program an unfair advantage in any way, shape, or form.

Between the NCAA, Robbins, Heeke, and Larry Scott, we are surrounded by cunts.

Chicat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:30 pm Thanks Larry.

It’s gonna be sad at the end of the season when Arizona is the top team in the PAC 12 and can’t represent our conference.

Then again it will be a reminder.

Chicat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:53 pm Self-sanctioning is still ridiculously stupid. You can hindsight yourself until you’re dizzy but it doesn’t matter. Nothing Book was accused of gave us an advantage on the court. We are now punishing kids who weren’t even looking at playing at UA (or in some cases America) when Book was pulling his bullshit that did nothing to give the program an unfair advantage in any way, shape, or form.

No, it isn't. If we don't self sanction someone else (IARP/NCAA) is going to do it for us.......and the ramifications would almost certainly be worse.

I agree the current crop of UA players are being unfairly punished.......all the more reason we should have taken our lumps back in 2018. If we had we would not be having this conversation and the current players would get the opportunity to play in the PAC12 tourney and possibly the Big Dance.

dmjcat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:45 pm
Just to engage in a little bit of hindsight what if we had self sanctioned in 18??

1) We would have avoided the embarrassing ass-kicking at the hands of Buffalo
2) We would have largely avoided 3 years of negative press
3) We would have largely negated the negative recruiting we have faced over the past 3 years
4) We would be eligible to play in this years PAC12 tourney and NCAA tourney.

Seems pretty obvious to me.

Happy New Year.

Uh, we should preemptively ban ourselves from the tourney when we might get upset in the first round? That's some 4d chess.

You think ESPN would decide "nah, we won't run this story about Miller paying Ayton 10k a month...they self sanctioned, so no biggie?"

Can you negate a negative? Negative recruiting is gonna happen to some extent until our punishment is final. Self sanctioning doesn't guarantee you squat.

So being eligible this year would be good, but not being eligible in 18-19 would have been fine. Our preseason top 5 team in 18-19. Ok.

This logic does not hold up for me.

dmjcat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:06 pm

Chicat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:53 pm Self-sanctioning is still ridiculously stupid. You can hindsight yourself until you’re dizzy but it doesn’t matter. Nothing Book was accused of gave us an advantage on the court. We are now punishing kids who weren’t even looking at playing at UA (or in some cases America) when Book was pulling his bullshit that did nothing to give the program an unfair advantage in any way, shape, or form.

No, it isn't. If we don't self sanction someone else (IARP/NCAA) is going to do it for us.......and the ramifications would almost certainly be worse.

You’re an abused spouse.

dmjcat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:06 pm

Chicat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:53 pm Self-sanctioning is still ridiculously stupid. You can hindsight yourself until you’re dizzy but it doesn’t matter. Nothing Book was accused of gave us an advantage on the court. We are now punishing kids who weren’t even looking at playing at UA (or in some cases America) when Book was pulling his bullshit that did nothing to give the program an unfair advantage in any way, shape, or form.

No, it isn't. If we don't self sanction someone else (IARP/NCAA) is going to do it for us.......and the ramifications would almost certainly be worse.

I agree the current crop of UA players are being unfairly punished.......all the more reason we should have taken our lumps back in 2018. If we had we would not be having this conversation and the current players would get the opportunity to play in the PAC12 tourney and possibly the Big Dance.

Oklahoma State self imposed, and the NCAA didn't accept it and added more sanctions. Self sanctioning didn't help the Cowboys one bit, and they are the most comparable to us.

Chicat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:53 pm Self-sanctioning is still ridiculously stupid. You can hindsight yourself until you’re dizzy but it doesn’t matter. Nothing Book was accused of gave us an advantage on the court. We are now punishing kids who weren’t even looking at playing at UA (or in some cases America) when Book was pulling his bullshit that did nothing to give the program an unfair advantage in any way, shape, or form.

The writing was on the wall after Okie State was hit. Just hope to god that Arizona’s lawyers can convince the IARP that this should be the end of it and the other charges are pure bullshit.

Since we turned our case over to the IARP, is it the NCAA or the IARP that accepts our self-sanctioning?

If it’s the IARP, than maybe this has been our strategy all along.

Ultimately if this works out we benefit as a program and can move on from this garbage. If it doesn’t work out Bobby Robbins is 100% done. It’s a win/win.

MountainCat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:27 pm Since we turned our case over to the IARP, is it the NCAA or the IARP that accepts our self-sanctioning?

If it’s the IARP, than maybe this has been our strategy all along.

It’s all in the IARP’s hands.

MountainCat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:27 pm Since we turned our case over to the IARP, is it the NCAA or the IARP that accepts our self-sanctioning?

If it’s the IARP, than maybe this has been our strategy all along.

IARP. I'd expect it has been our strategy, given that we waited until shortly after the IARP accepted our request to use their system.

ChooChooCat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:30 pm

MountainCat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:27 pm Since we turned our case over to the IARP, is it the NCAA or the IARP that accepts our self-sanctioning?

If it’s the IARP, than maybe this has been our strategy all along.

It’s all in the IARP’s hands.

So there’s a chance it may be accepted then. If it is, then we stuck it to the NCAA and proved they are worthless.

Just putting this out there: this team can still win, or at least compete for, a Pac reg season title. It would be a terrific story if this team found it within themselves to battle against the misfortune and still do something that people will always remember.

Beachcat97 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:38 pm Just putting this out there: this team can still win, or at least compete for, a Pac reg season title. It would be a terrific story if this team found it within themselves to battle against the misfortune and still do something that people will always remember.

Hear Hear

So we can ban ourselves from the postseason while in the middle of playing that same season? Wouldn't that need to be done prior to Game 1 for it to look good to the NCAA?

This is a half-assed attempt to self-impose the minimum punishment. Also an outside chance we just screwed over next years team and Wildcat fans worldwide.

As long as it’s before post season it shouldn’t be an issue. Question is will someone add reduced scholarships too?

Beachcat97 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:38 pm Just putting this out there: this team can still win, or at least compete for, a Pac reg season title. It would be a terrific story if this team found it within themselves to battle against the misfortune and still do something that people will always remember.

The team is fully motivated to do just that.

Exactly, this "nice gesture" might not be even close to enough. They could add add a scholarship reduction and a Miller ban next year.

Jefe wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:03 pm So we can ban ourselves from the postseason while in the middle of playing that same season? Wouldn't that need to be done prior to Game 1 for it to look good to the NCAA?

This is a half-assed attempt to self-impose the minimum punishment. Also an outside chance we just screwed over next years team and Wildcat fans worldwide.

Louisville did it with a NCAA tourney quality team a few years back right in the middle of the season (after how far we’re currently along).

Jefe wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:11 pm Exactly, this "nice gesture" might not be even close to enough. They could add add a scholarship reduction and a Miller ban next year.

Which is still infinitely better than being banned from the postseason with a final four contending roster next year. The risk is that the IARP says “nah you get another season with a postseason ban,” and not a scholarship loss/Miller suspension. That’s literally middle ground and something Arizona wouldn’t fight. Another postseason ban though....ouch.

Jefe wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:11 pm Exactly, this "nice gesture" might not be even close to enough. They could add add a scholarship reduction and a Miller ban next year.

Zero chance they're done by next year. They haven't processed a single case and we're not first in line.

Like Choo said, this isn't unprecedented, Louisville did it and it was accepted by the NCAA as a "real" ban.

I mean, the IARP didn't tell us they'd even take this case until a few days ago. It's not like we dawdled heavily relative to their timeline. Heck, we have a 90 day timeline to respond to the NOA, and that doesn't even run until late January.

Beachcat97 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:48 pm In other news, are we really the 8th best team in the Pac?

https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2020/12/29 ... -ramps-up/

This is straight up braindead.

ASU just lost to fucking UTEP on their home court.

Arizona just thumped Coloardo.

Wazzu has zero quality opponents (and thus zero quality wins).

Utah got rocked by their only quality opponent.

Just really dumb stuff. I think he wrote this ahead of last night's game, skipped the game, lightly edited and hit send this morning.

Chicat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:53 pm Self-sanctioning is still ridiculously stupid.

100%

Chicat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:53 pmYou can hindsight yourself until you’re dizzy but it doesn’t matter. Nothing Book was accused of gave us an advantage on the court.

its hard to find a ton Book was responsible in terms of advantages created at any time during his tenure, but he had a few. certainly being a 5k bag man in a govt sting run by a combination of low-level, low-life's and carousel of FBI morons didnt gain Arizona an advantage on the floor. none.

Chicat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:53 pmWe are now punishing kids who weren’t even looking at playing at UA (or in some cases America) when Book was pulling his bullshit that did nothing to give the program an unfair advantage in any way, shape, or form.

this is the part i struggle with, the current group of student athletes is paying a steep price for past sins, sins that cant be proven beyond a reasonable doubt for that matter, and alleged circumstantial high levels of "impact" to the program which are totally impossible to quantify accurately.

sad

now that being said.....

midnightx wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:59 pm It is a smart play. This is a strange, somewhat lost season for college basketball. Arizona basketball is presently going through a transition. This is not a championship level squad. Take a hit now when it matters less, rather than later on when it will potentially hurt more. It might also help with recruiting because recruits for 21 and 22 won't be concerned with the uncertainty of missing the tournament due to sanctions. The NCAA will not be content with this announcement because it wants blood from Arizona (for some reason more than the other teams associated with the FBI investigation), but an arbitrator is going to have to strongly take this into account when levying future penalties, if the process leads to a conclusion that more is warranted, such as a loss of scholarships or vacated wins.

i tend to agree with this post, specifically the first part, as unfortunate and unfair as it may be to Ira Lee and others - however, the risk being run is the highlighted above. if the NCAA presses, AZ will be in the hands of an arbitrator. if further punishment is leveed, this seasons self imposed post-season ban would be all for not.

slippery slope and as lame as ever.

I still haven’t heard what noa alleges miller did.
Quinerly, Alkins and Ayton were all cleared to play.

Is this Robbins attempt to piss off all the boosters that unfriended him after the football hire?

Postmaster wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:08 pm I still haven’t heard what noa alleges miller did.
Quinerly, Alkins and Ayton were all cleared to play.

Lack of institutional control. Book broke the law, Phelps lightly violated amateurism with his help of Pinder. We still haven't actually gotten eyes on the document so we don't know the evidence that they're pointing to nor even the complete list of charges.

look, the bottom line is Sean Miller kept Book Richardson at Arizona four too many years and the program has been paying the price and is going to continue to pay the price for that fact one way or another - that is indisputable.

Postmaster wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:09 pm Is this Robbins attempt to piss off all the boosters that unfriended him after the football hire?

He thinks he’s saving Arizona Basketball and its relevancy next year by doing this. If he’s wrong the basketball boosters will do every thing in their power to ensure his time at U of A is done. You can write off the Arizona Football boosters and not lose much (hence the Fisch hire). You can’t get away with doing that to basketball.

97cats wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:16 pm look, the bottom line is Sean Miller kept Book Richardson at Arizona four too many years and the program has been paying the price and is going to continue to pay the price for that fact one way or another - that is indisputable.

Book should have been fired instead of suspended when he was leaking info to Ace.

Merkin wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:24 pm
Book should have been fired instead of suspended when he was leaking info to Ace.

there were things more pressing that were more significant - Book has an impulsive personality and it tends to spill over into other parts of his life.

after the 2015/16 season he should have been forced to take a found job.

I see this completely different. We fought this originally as charges levied in the media for Sean paying players to get them to come to Arizona. That is why we fought and why we had to dispute that. I think they now see this as excluding Sean for anything other then his failure to control Book for his actions. Arizona is guilty of that and Sean is guilty because he was responsible for Book. I think it was inevitable that we were responsible for that. I think Auburn's self sanctioning was more reflective of where we found ourselves and the actions we took. I also think that Sean was aware of this whether he was happy about this or not he knew it was coming. If he did not know we wont have a coach for Washington and any talk about this team fulfilling its potential is a joke.

Do you think the team knew about this last night prior to our game?

azcat49 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:16 pm Do you think the team knew about this last night prior to our game?

Scheer said they were told this morning.

That sucks. Have to wonder now after such a great game this impacts their focus and intensity

Their intensity and focus will be on the coaches. I think there will be a fire. Nothing better then having the PAC 12 champ limited only by its own self sanction. This is a young team so who knows but Sean will let them know what they have to play for. I think Sean knew before the game because of the way his press conference started.....just a guess.

I hope the NCAA handles Arizona's self-imposed postseason ban the same way I hope it handles Auburn's self-imposed postseason ban -- by completely ignoring it and making it clear that the NCAA will decide how and when the programs are punished, not the other way around. When you're a teenager, you don't get to ground yourself for the weekend and get credit for time-served when the weekend appears to be lame relative to the weekends you hope to enjoy in the future. That's not left up to you. For similar reasons, this should not be left up to Auburn and Arizona. And I'd write the same about literally any other school.

Again, it's just wrong.

Arizona's players celebrated a win on Monday night. On Tuesday morning, they were told their season will end with a game against Arizona State on March 6. I'm sure the players will mostly handle it gracefully because it's not hard to trick young people into thinking you didn't do them wrong. But, make no mistake, Arizona's administration did Arizona's players wrong. And the fact that the decision wasn't even surprising in the least underlines why the NCAA should end this practice forever, sooner rather than later.

From our buddy Gary Parrish at CBS.com

https://www.cbssports.com/college-baske ... ot-enough/

“....And even though Arizona is, as previously noted, off to a 7-1 start, this team is undeniably mediocre relative to normal Arizona standards.”

If Parrish payed attention he'd know the NCAA has nothing to do this since we aren't dealing with them. What a waste of an article.

azcat49 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:09 pm I hope the NCAA handles Arizona's self-imposed postseason ban the same way I hope it handles Auburn's self-imposed postseason ban -- by completely ignoring it and making it clear that the NCAA will decide how and when the programs are punished, not the other way around. When you're a teenager, you don't get to ground yourself for the weekend and get credit for time-served when the weekend appears to be lame relative to the weekends you hope to enjoy in the future. That's not left up to you. For similar reasons, this should not be left up to Auburn and Arizona. And I'd write the same about literally any other school.

Again, it's just wrong.

Arizona's players celebrated a win on Monday night. On Tuesday morning, they were told their season will end with a game against Arizona State on March 6. I'm sure the players will mostly handle it gracefully because it's not hard to trick young people into thinking you didn't do them wrong. But, make no mistake, Arizona's administration did Arizona's players wrong. And the fact that the decision wasn't even surprising in the least underlines why the NCAA should end this practice forever, sooner rather than later.

From our buddy Gary Parrish at CBS.com

https://www.cbssports.com/college-baske ... ot-enough/

That's a bad take from Parrish.

First, missing a tourney is missing a tourney. It makes no sense for the NCAA to try to levy extra punishment, especially due to a second factor I'll lay out.

Parrish says it's hard to feel bad for our players because they enrolled after the allegations. It's exactly the opposite. I feel worse for a group of players who had ****-all to do with the underlying conduct.

But that's the NCAA's way. Drop punishment, most often on groups of people who had nothing to do with the conduct they're getting punished for.

To use Parrish's example, should a teenager pick when they are grounded? Maybe, especially when they're getting punished for something someone else did.

And look, this is ultimately my opinion, but the real problem is the NCAA. People clearly want to give top prospects money. But the NCAA has decided it's wrong that young, African-American men receive market value for their talents. That money could go to the NCAA's billion plus dollar tv deal and enrich middle aged white men, the way it's supposed to, right?

So enact arbitrary rules and impose arbitrary punishments. The hilarious part of Parrish's argument is he thinks this years team doesn't deserve it...but maybe next year's will. Or the year after that. Like they're more morally culpable for **** that happened in 2017.

So what are the chances Krissa plays a game at Arizona?

Postmaster wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:45 pm So what are the chances Krissa plays a game at Arizona?

Why wouldn't he? He's played in Euro leagues that he could return to, and he's clearly not a OAD. So, what's the advantage in leaving us...unless it's for Europe, and in that case, why did he come here?

Spaceman Spiff wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:28 pm And look, this is ultimately my opinion, but the real problem is the NCAA. People clearly want to give top prospects money. But the NCAA has decided it's wrong that young, African-American men receive market value for their talents. That money could go to the NCAA's billion plus dollar tv deal and enrich middle aged white men, the way it's supposed to, right?

So enact arbitrary rules and impose arbitrary punishments. The hilarious part of Parrish's argument is he thinks this years team doesn't deserve it...but maybe next year's will. Or the year after that. Like they're more morally culpable for **** that happened in 2017.

Yeah, it'd be nice if Miller got the bulk of the punishment. Suspend him for x amount of games and fine him x amount of dollars. Let's not take games away from kids who had nothing to do with any of this.