Bear Down Wildcats

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

Olsondogg wrote:Being ranked top 5 and 10 did alot for us the last two years. Good on ASU, would be nice to have teams prep for both teams for once in conference play.

Bingo. You can be a 1 seed with bad matchups and a 7 seed with favorable matchups. Seed doesn't mean you get opponents that lend themselves to your style of play. If you want to make a FF, you have to beat some good teams.

We need to get our house in order. This team, playing to full potential, doesn't need to worry about not being a 1.

I don't have the links but we've seen some studies here that reflect the greater percentages of getting to the Final Four with higher seeding.

Longhorned wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

Olsondogg wrote:Being ranked top 5 and 10 did alot for us the last two years. Good on ASU, would be nice to have teams prep for both teams for once in conference play.

Bingo. You can be a 1 seed with bad matchups and a 7 seed with favorable matchups. Seed doesn't mean you get opponents that lend themselves to your style of play. If you want to make a FF, you have to beat some good teams.

We need to get our house in order. This team, playing to full potential, doesn't need to worry about not being a 1.

I don't have the links but we've seen some studies here that reflect the greater percentages of getting to the Final Four with higher seeding.

I agree with that, but the caveat for us is whether we already frittered away a 1 in the Bahamas.

If we achieve our potential, we will be playing like a high seed. Whether our actual seed reflects that or the Atlantis debacle...well, I don't think it matters. If we get to where we can be, we will be a de facto 1, if maybe not on the actual seeding line.

I would much rather be like UCONN during their last 2 championships. Steadily building team chemistry all year and peaking in the tournament is way better than peaking in December. Polls don't matter until February.

I'm hoping the 2 Kansas losses in KC and Lawrence help our ranking/seeding. Surely some media and selection committee members see that it isn't fair to drop Kansas to #13 and us all the way out of the polls.

DiehardDave37 wrote:I'm hoping the 2 Kansas losses in KC and Lawrence help our ranking/seeding. Surely some media and selection committee members see that it isn't fair to drop Kansas to #13 and us all the way out of the polls.

Very true. The difference is that Kansas lost to a team that is now viewed as a top-five nationally ranked squad. AZ dropped some three in a row in appalling fashion. Still, your point is well-taken, I was a bit surprised KU only dropped 11 spots for back to back losses, both at home.

midnightx wrote:

DiehardDave37 wrote:I'm hoping the 2 Kansas losses in KC and Lawrence help our ranking/seeding. Surely some media and selection committee members see that it isn't fair to drop Kansas to #13 and us all the way out of the polls.

Very true. The difference is that Kansas lost to a team that is now viewed as a top-five nationally ranked squad. AZ dropped some three in a row in appalling fashion. Still, your point is well-taken, I was a bit surprised KU only dropped 11 spots for back to back losses, both at home.

We deserved the drop....KU should have had a bigger drop as well since both losses were technically home games and to UW??? And ASSU is way, way overrated IMHO. Matt Norlander is on crack if he thinks there is a good argument that they should be #1.

Can’t wait till they visit McKale.....No doubt their guards might give us a challenge but we will definitely put them back in their place!

Thoughts?

12

Rankings mean nothing this time of year, right?!

I thought that, then I read this article and realized how accurate the week six polls are. Basically, if a team isn’t in the Top 12 this time of year, it almost certainly won’t win a national title.

“The eventual national champion has been ranked no lower than No. 12 in the week six poll every season but one since 1999,” the article states.

That’s an ominous fact for an Arizona team currently ranked 23rd.

https://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketbal ... nse-kenpom" target="_blank

HiCat wrote:Thoughts?

12

Rankings mean nothing this time of year, right?!

I thought that, then I read this article and realized how accurate the week six polls are. Basically, if a team isn’t in the Top 12 this time of year, it almost certainly won’t win a national title.

“The eventual national champion has been ranked no lower than No. 12 in the week six poll every season but one since 1999,” the article states.

That’s an ominous fact for an Arizona team currently ranked 23rd.

https://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketbal ... nse-kenpom" target="_blank

I'm thinking I still don't care.

Only 10-15 teams ever have a legitimate shot at a national title on any given year.

Those teams are usually ranked in the top 10 or 15 at the beginning of the year.

6 weeks means about 10-12 games, most of which are OOC cupcakes.

The games that are most-likely to be dropped are going to tend to be against tougher competition, which means for a top 5 team, they won't drop out of the top 10 from a single loss.

This is a simple case of a weird stat that means nothing. Yeah, the Cats losing 3 in a row is bad, because it means the team hasn't gelled well, and it means we're prone to a bad run of form. Not because we dropped out of the rankings and haven't climbed back up to # 12 by week 6...

HiCat wrote:Thoughts?

12

Rankings mean nothing this time of year, right?!

I thought that, then I read this article and realized how accurate the week six polls are. Basically, if a team isn’t in the Top 12 this time of year, it almost certainly won’t win a national title.

“The eventual national champion has been ranked no lower than No. 12 in the week six poll every season but one since 1999,” the article states.

That’s an ominous fact for an Arizona team currently ranked 23rd.

https://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketbal ... nse-kenpom" target="_blank

It's one of those stats that seems meaningful, but isn't. If a bunch of teams lose and we jump, are we better? What about the week 7 poll? How about week 11?

Rankings are frequently diagnostics, but week 6 is as important as any other week.

Week 6 in 1997, what were we ranked? #6?

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/se ... #all_polls" target="_blank

I love when journalists try to pass of information as "stats"

If you'd had six cups of coffee and it's 11 o'clock, you'll never poop.

Fuck the FBI probe. Fuck the Battle for Atlantis. Fuck #5 ASU. Time to remember who we are and why we loved SM to begin with. Let's sack up and win out!

ASUs xavier and Kansas wins are looking to be against highly overrated teams. Xavier and KU are not top tier this year.

Fuck ASU

Trae Young is the best player in CBB.

SunnyAZ wrote:Trae Young is the best player in CBB.

Trae is ridiculous. I see him getting OU to an EE single-handedly. Wichita State also has no business being #3 in the country. Their only decent win is at Baylor and their roster is weak sauce.

If the Sooners finish off the Shockers, 4 ranked teams will have lost already today.

I like it when Wichita State loses.

CalStateTempe wrote:I like it when Wichita State loses.

Trae Young wow! He's got game.

ASU in a good game with Vandy. Almost to halftime.

luteformayor2 wrote:ASUs xavier and Kansas wins are looking to be against highly overrated teams. Xavier and KU are not top tier this year.

Fuck ASU

Vandy agrees with you, at least in the first half of the first half.

DiehardDave37 wrote:

luteformayor2 wrote:ASUs xavier and Kansas wins are looking to be against highly overrated teams. Xavier and KU are not top tier this year.

Fuck ASU

Vandy agrees with you, at least in the first half of the first half.

Can’t wait to bring ASU crashing down to earth soon.....way, way overrated IMO. Now, I want the hype to continue until their inevitable collapse starting with a visit to McKale .

Honestly, how much of ASU’s hype is due to the media loving on Hurley? With his Duke pedigree and the Eastern Sports Network (ESPN) / Duke Cheerleading Squad...I have to think that has some effect as well as their noncon success so far.

College basketball rankings: Trae Young, Sooners launch into national conversation
Oklahoma and Arkansas are new additions to Sunday's Top 25 (and one)

Gary Parrish mugshot
by Gary Parrish @GaryParrishCBS 18h ago • 1 min read


1
team logo
Villanova The Wildcats own wins over Gonzaga, Tennessee and Temple. Eight of their 11 wins have come by double-digits. -- 11-0
2
team logo
Arizona State The Sun Devils' perfect record features four top-50 KenPom wins. ASU beat Kansas and Xavier both by double-digits. -- 10-0
3
team logo
Michigan State The Spartans have won nine straight games since losing to Duke. KenPom doesn't project them to be an underdog again this regular season. -- 10-1
4
team logo
North Carolina The Tar Heels' lone loss is a neutral-court loss to Michigan State. UNC already owns five top-100 KenPom victories. -- 10-1
19
team logo
Arizona The Wildcats have won five straight since going 0-3 at the Battle 4 Atlantis. They own wins over Texas A&M, Alabama and UNLV. 1 8-3

https://www.cbssports.com/college-baske ... versation/" target="_blank


College Basketball Power Rankings: Wichita State’s loss, Oklahoma’s gain, and ‘why Arizona?’
By Rob DausterDec 17, 2017, 11:38 PM EST

The ranking that I got the most push-back on last week was putting Arizona at No. 6. They’re at No. 5 this week, up a spot after Wichita State dropped out. My reasoning is this: I am generally going to bet on talent, and rare will be the night when Arizona is not the most talented team on the floor. How many teams in the country will they play where Allonzo Trier and Deandre Ayton are not the two-best players on the floor? Maybe five? Ten, tops? And of those five-to-ten teams, I don’t think a single one of them can claim that they have two of the three best players on the floor.

And now they have Rawle Alkins back, who just went for 26 points on 11 shots at New Mexico.

Since the disaster in the Bahamas, Arizona has won five straight. They won at UNLV. They won a semi-home game against a very good Texas A&M team. They beat Alabama. They handled New Mexico fairly easily in The Pit. In a year where everyone has warts, I’m fine being the first one to say that those three games in Atlantis were just one of those weird things that happen in college basketball.

Anyway, here are this week’s Power Rankings:

1. Villanova, 10-0 (Last Week: No. 1)
2. Michigan State, 10-1 (2)
3. Miami, 9-0 (3)
4. Duke, 11-1 (5)
5. Arizona, 8-3 (6)
6. Arizona State, 10-0 (7)
7. Texas A&M, 9-1 (8)
8. North Carolina, 10-1 (12)
9. Xavier, 10-1 (9)
10. West Virginia, 9-1 (10)
11. Purdue, 11-2 (16)
12. Gonzaga, 9-2 (14)
13. Kansas, 7-2 (13)
14. Kentucky, 9-1 (17)
15. Oklahoma, 8-1 (19)
16. Wichita State, 8-2 (3)

http://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/ ... y-arizona/" target="_blank

Asu at #2?!?

In defeating Vandy ASU did not take even ONE mid range shot...all three's and under the rim...

https://www.reddit.com/r/CollegeBasketb ... state_did/" target="_blank

If we guard the three and keep Ristic on the bench except to generate fouls it won't even be close.

CatFanOneMil wrote:In defeating Vandy ASU did not take even ONE mid range shot...all three's and under the rim...

https://www.reddit.com/r/CollegeBasketb ... state_did/" target="_blank

If we guard the three and keep Ristic on the bench except to generate fouls it won't even be close.

This year, "if we guard the threes" has been the operative question that defines how well a game goes defensively across the board.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

CatFanOneMil wrote:In defeating Vandy ASU did not take even ONE mid range shot...all three's and under the rim...

https://www.reddit.com/r/CollegeBasketb ... state_did/" target="_blank

If we guard the three and keep Ristic on the bench except to generate fouls it won't even be close.

This year, "if we guard the threes" has been the operative question that defines how well a game goes defensively across the board.

True but to put it in perspective the teams shot a combined 9/54 from 3...thats both teams combined...

So ASU is not having a lot of success here, they are streaky just like every team that depends on jacking up three's...

No way they dominate the paint against us like they did Vandy...so you can take away at least half of the points in the paint...

HiCat wrote:College basketball rankings: Trae Young, Sooners launch into national conversation
Oklahoma and Arkansas are new additions to Sunday's Top 25 (and one)

Gary Parrish mugshot
by Gary Parrish @GaryParrishCBS 18h ago • 1 min read


1
team logo
Villanova The Wildcats own wins over Gonzaga, Tennessee and Temple. Eight of their 11 wins have come by double-digits. -- 11-0
2
team logo
Arizona State The Sun Devils' perfect record features four top-50 KenPom wins. ASU beat Kansas and Xavier both by double-digits. -- 10-0

Uses Kenpom to justify ASU's #2 ranking, ignores the fact that ASU is ranked 31st on Kenpom and has an adjusted defense that is ranked 127th. Gary Parrish has always been a dickhead Speaking of Kenpom, ASU's ADJ offense is now ranked 5th.. Ours is ranked 6th (and the defense is ranked 63 spots higher than theirs, at 64th)

rgdeuce wrote:

HiCat wrote:College basketball rankings: Trae Young, Sooners launch into national conversation
Oklahoma and Arkansas are new additions to Sunday's Top 25 (and one)

Gary Parrish mugshot
by Gary Parrish @GaryParrishCBS 18h ago • 1 min read


1
team logo
Villanova The Wildcats own wins over Gonzaga, Tennessee and Temple. Eight of their 11 wins have come by double-digits. -- 11-0
2
team logo
Arizona State The Sun Devils' perfect record features four top-50 KenPom wins. ASU beat Kansas and Xavier both by double-digits. -- 10-0

Uses Kenpom to justify ASU's #2 ranking, ignores the fact that ASU is ranked 31st on Kenpom and has an adjusted defense that is ranked 127th. Gary Parrish has always been a dickhead Speaking of Kenpom, ASU's ADJ offense is now ranked 5th.. Ours is ranked 6th (and the defense is ranked 63 spots higher than theirs, at 64th)

And just about every concern we have with this team is DEFENSE...that reveals a lot about the cultures of the two teams currently using the name "Arizona" one team is happy for the happy the other team is pissed because the defense is so bad...(and still way ahead of the other team)>>>

I'm hoping ASU gets chewed up and destroyed by our defense by then...two more games to take it up a few notches...a few practices...

I also notice a huge difference in what the coaches do...Hurley yells at the refs, Miller yells at his team.

rgdeuce wrote:

HiCat wrote:College basketball rankings: Trae Young, Sooners launch into national conversation
Oklahoma and Arkansas are new additions to Sunday's Top 25 (and one)

Gary Parrish mugshot
by Gary Parrish @GaryParrishCBS 18h ago • 1 min read


1
team logo
Villanova The Wildcats own wins over Gonzaga, Tennessee and Temple. Eight of their 11 wins have come by double-digits. -- 11-0
2
team logo
Arizona State The Sun Devils' perfect record features four top-50 KenPom wins. ASU beat Kansas and Xavier both by double-digits. -- 10-0

Uses Kenpom to justify ASU's #2 ranking, ignores the fact that ASU is ranked 31st on Kenpom and has an adjusted defense that is ranked 127th. Gary Parrish has always been a dickhead Speaking of Kenpom, ASU's ADJ offense is now ranked 5th.. Ours is ranked 6th (and the defense is ranked 63 spots higher than theirs, at 64th)

Wow it keeps rising instead of going down. Remember it going to the 40s, then 50s, and now 60s. That's concerning tbh

#18

Asu is 3

The only thing I'm worried about wrt asu, is coming out tight. We tend to clam up in big games and this is a big game.

The Sun Devils are 10-0 and one of the most exciting teams to watch in college basketball, led by four freewheeling guards who have helped turn ASU into "Guard U.''

Even ESPN is drinking the koolaid. Guard U after one season.

less than 1/3 of one season*

apparently that makes up for 40 years of sucking.

Hurley has been getting ton of press and one on one interviews on espn. It's sickening.

4 to 1 he's gone to another school by May. and ASU will sink to the depths again to be seen like a periodical cicada in 13 years.

CalStateTempe wrote:Hurley has been getting ton of press and one on one interviews on espn. It's sickening.

Fuck asu but Hurley has done a great job with his team. Team is multiple times better than the sum of the parts. Fucking hate it but it is the truth. Getting the guys to play far above their talent. Don't see that all the time

PHXCATS wrote:

CalStateTempe wrote:Hurley has been getting ton of press and one on one interviews on espn. It's sickening.

Fuck asu but Hurley has done a great job with his team. Team is multiple times better than the sum of the parts. Fucking hate it but it is the truth. Getting the guys to play far above their talent. Don't see that all the time

Tell me phx, what's the implied message behind this message?

cats101 wrote:

The Sun Devils are 10-0 and one of the most exciting teams to watch in college basketball, led by four freewheeling guards who have helped turn ASU into "Guard U.''

Even ESPN is drinking the koolaid. Guard U after one season.

Not a single one of their guards will be playing in the NBA.

CatFanOneMil wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

CatFanOneMil wrote:In defeating Vandy ASU did not take even ONE mid range shot...all three's and under the rim...

https://www.reddit.com/r/CollegeBasketb ... state_did/" target="_blank

If we guard the three and keep Ristic on the bench except to generate fouls it won't even be close.

This year, "if we guard the threes" has been the operative question that defines how well a game goes defensively across the board.

True but to put it in perspective the teams shot a combined 9/54 from 3...thats both teams combined...

So ASU is not having a lot of success here, they are streaky just like every team that depends on jacking up three's...

No way they dominate the paint against us like they did Vandy...so you can take away at least half of the points in the paint...

ASU's guard rotation shoots 45%, 42%, 40%, and 38.5% from 3. They're having plenty of success from 3. Their entire offense last year was their 3 point shooting and that's their entire offense this year sans the one difference of Romello White as a competent post option. ASU defends worse than we do fwiw.

CalStateTempe wrote:

PHXCATS wrote:

CalStateTempe wrote:Hurley has been getting ton of press and one on one interviews on espn. It's sickening.

Fuck asu but Hurley has done a great job with his team. Team is multiple times better than the sum of the parts. Fucking hate it but it is the truth. Getting the guys to play far above their talent. Don't see that all the time

Tell me phx, what's the implied message behind this message?

that machina hates Sean Miller and would rather have Hurley as our coach.

CalStateTempe wrote:

PHXCATS wrote:

CalStateTempe wrote:Hurley has been getting ton of press and one on one interviews on espn. It's sickening.

Fuck asu but Hurley has done a great job with his team. Team is multiple times better than the sum of the parts. Fucking hate it but it is the truth. Getting the guys to play far above their talent. Don't see that all the time

Tell me phx, what's the implied message behind this message?

asu

Remy Martin-4 star-Freshman
Mickey Mitchell-4 star-Sophmore
Vitaliy Shibel-International-Freshman
Romello White-4 star-Freshman
Tra Holder-4 star-Senior
Kodi Justice-3 star-Senior
De'Quon Lake-3 star-Freshman
Shannon Evans II-NR-Senior

Some talent but not tons of it. They are playing very well. This is the roster of a bubble team, not the #3 team in America. They got it together as a team quickly.

ASU has two quality wins on their schedule, Xavier where they shot nearly 50% from 3 for the game and of course KU where once again they shot 50% from 3. It's debatable just how good KU is this year also fwiw, but none of their other wins are exactly impressive at least definitely not to deserve the hype they've gotten up to this point.

PHXCATS wrote:

CalStateTempe wrote:

PHXCATS wrote:

CalStateTempe wrote:Hurley has been getting ton of press and one on one interviews on espn. It's sickening.

Fuck asu but Hurley has done a great job with his team. Team is multiple times better than the sum of the parts. Fucking hate it but it is the truth. Getting the guys to play far above their talent. Don't see that all the time

Tell me phx, what's the implied message behind this message?

asu

Remy Martin-4 star-Freshman
Mickey Mitchell-4 star-Sophmore
Vitaliy Shibel-International-Freshman
Romello White-4 star-Freshman
Tra Holder-4 star-Senior
Kodi Justice-3 star-Senior
De'Quon Lake-3 star-Freshman
Shannon Evans II-NR-Senior

Some talent but not tons of it. They are playing very well. This is the roster of a bubble team, not the #3 team in America. They got it together as a team quickly.

Most bubble teams have four 4-star recruits and a Euro in their top 5? Good to know.

Compare the talent ASU has recruited to their BB program with what he have brought in for Football... Hurley has done a very good job this year so far, no doubt... but let's not get carried away. That also includes recruiting legitimate P5 talent; not lottery picks, but guys who were in demand. It is not as if the majority of his rotation is filled with guys whose only Power 5 offer came from him.

One thing I do appreciate is that he has scheduled some legitimate competition in his OOC schedule. Only coaches with balls do that... and ones that care more about winning than propping up their marginal record.

ChooChooCat wrote:ASU has two quality wins on their schedule, Xavier where they shot nearly 50% from 3 for the game and of course KU where once again they shot 50% from 3. It's debatable just how good KU is this year also fwiw, but none of their other wins are exactly impressive at least definitely not to deserve the hype they've gotten up to this point.

It's definitely a name branch thing. Going into Allen and winning is seen as nearly impossible. So when you have a Program like asu go in and beat KU, the media will be all over it. It's like they ignored the fact that they lost to UW and now needed a game winning shot to beat Nebraska.

Give it time. College basketball works in segments. Asu fans are about to learn that.

cats101 wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:ASU has two quality wins on their schedule, Xavier where they shot nearly 50% from 3 for the game and of course KU where once again they shot 50% from 3. It's debatable just how good KU is this year also fwiw, but none of their other wins are exactly impressive at least definitely not to deserve the hype they've gotten up to this point.

It's definitely a name branch thing. Going into Allen and winning is seen as nearly impossible. So when you have a Program like asu go in and beat KU, the media will be all over it. It's like they ignored the fact that they lost to UW and now needed a game winning shot to beat Nebraska.

Give it time. College basketball works in segments. Asu fans are about to learn that.

Exactly. November and December, especially in this day and age of hoops, is about discovering what you have. Coaches are implementing systems and getting new players to learn. ASU had a tremendous advantage with their best players all seniors and having played together several years. The newcomers could easily assimilate because they're not integral parts of the offense. The other aspect is that ASU's schedule is not as impressive as one would think. The Xavier win was good, but the more you look at the other games X has played it becomes clearer that they're not a top 10 team. Not even close. And if you haven't figured out by now that Kansas isn't even a top 25 team right now, then you're not paying attention. You simply do not lose a game 45 miles from campus to a program that finished second to last in its conference the previous year and is sure to have a losing conference record again. Kansas was three pointer away with :20 remaining from dropping three straight games. I'm not sure there is anything special about ASU's other victories. San Diego State flat out sucks. And so does Vanderbilt. Just look at the games they've played.

I expect Miller and Arizona to heap tons of praise on ASU leading up to December 30. And rightly so. Give them all their credit for their unbeaten start and high ranking. And I have no doubt that Miller is using that in every practice. The fact remains, up until last week Arizona was missing one if its top 3 players and trying to incorporate a slew of newcomers while also dealing with injuries.

I can't wait to see what Vegas has as a betting line for this game.

Hurley is a joke, I don't care who you are, his guys play street ball/circus ball and jack up three's as far as I've concerned their ONLY quality win was Xavier...KU was bound to lose at home this year because this is the softest team Self has coached in a while (his own words)...ASU plays a frentic "non-style" kind of game where Hurley just lets his guys do whatever the fuck they want in some haphazard spin the tail on the donkey guards run wild sorta strategy.

They play next to zero defense because they plan on winning by sheer volume.

ANY team can lose at home, we had the longest streak just a few years ago when Oregon came into McKale (arguably as hard to play in as Allen)

Lets not forget that three years ago WE were unbeaten at this point in the season and then went to UNLV and lost and then a few weeks later lost to the Beavers...

The fucking Beavers...who had a record of 17-14 that year...

Polls at this point in the season are still a joke.

Trusting them is a bigger joke.

It's crazy that TCU is #15 without having played a single road game. They are 10-0 against cupcakes and play 0-11 Texas Southern tonight, again at home.

CalStateTempe wrote:Hurley has been getting ton of press and one on one interviews on espn. It's sickening.

I expected this and it can be annoying when people jump to conclusions so early in the season. Hurley has done a good job but I almost wonder if some people are just grooming him for his next head coaching job. I've wondered if he would end up taking over at Duke when Coach K retires. With regard to ASU; they have great shooters and guard play and in college basketball you can get somewhere with that. But heavy reliance on the three point shot and average at best defense can be two attributes that quickly get you into trouble in tournament play. I'm not convinced ASU is as good as people are thinking. A team with size that can defend the perimeter will give them problems. A team like Arizona.