Bear Down Wildcats

Posted: **Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:25 pm**

Beachcat97 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:22 pm I suppose we could compare Nico's freshman year to other big-minute AZ PGs in their first year.

Nico - 14ppg, 5.3apg, 2.5rpg, 39%FG, 79%FT
Bibby - 13.5, 5.2, 3.2, 44%, 70%
Gardner - 12.6, 4.8, 3.7, 37%, 72%
Shakur - 9.4, 4.5, 3.6, 51%, 80%
Bayless - 19.7, 4.0, 2.7, 45%, 83%
McConnell (junior transfer) - 8.4, 5.3, 3.6, 45%, 62%

Statistically, Nico compares VERY favorably to our best PGs. I would ask, Spiff, whether you consider Nico's overall impact as a freshman to be as significant as some of these others. Are these statistical measures the only way we can account for a player's impact? How many big shots did Nico hit? How many times did he come up big or flat in a critical game? With some of these others -- particularly Bibby, Gardner and McConnell -- their presence on the court was often the difference between a win and a loss. Is the same true of Nico?

Anyway, didn't mean to drag this on. Appreciate the conversation.

Perhaps I'm a Nico fanboy, but here's my thoughts. Bibby was flanked by Simon and Dickerson on the perimeter, vs Nico's Dylan Smith and Josh Green. Gardner had Arenas and Jefferson. Mustafa had Salim and Iggy. Bayless had Budinger and McClellan. TJ had Nick Johnson and Aaron Gordon.

I'd rate Nico and Bayless as the two most statistically impressive and also as the least accomplished in terms of results. I don't see that as an accident. My take is they produced more on lesser teams because they had to shoulder the load teammates couldn't.

It's easier to be a difference maker when your teammates keep you close and your contributions take it over the top. Nico and Bayless either had to play well or we'd lose by 10. Guys like Bibby, Gardner, TJ and Staf, the rest of the team could keep us competitive if they were off.

I will say, I think that comparison is a great one for understanding what I was driving at. Everyone on that list but TJ was a 5 star McDonald's AA. I think Nico produced comparably for a guy of that pedigree, and it's just a matter of comparing opportunity, team around him, etc. if we tried to rank them. Which is my thing with Nico. I think he lived up to what we should reasonably expect, but his shooting struggles meant he didn't exceed expectations.

Personally, I'd rank the 5 stars (freshman season alone):

1. Bibby.
2. Tie between Gardner, Bayless and Nico.
3. Mustafa.

Posted: **Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:08 pm**

Spaceman Spiff wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:25 pm
Beachcat97 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:22 pm I suppose we could compare Nico's freshman year to other big-minute AZ PGs in their first year.

Nico - 14ppg, 5.3apg, 2.5rpg, 39%FG, 79%FT
Bibby - 13.5, 5.2, 3.2, 44%, 70%
Gardner - 12.6, 4.8, 3.7, 37%, 72%
Shakur - 9.4, 4.5, 3.6, 51%, 80%
Bayless - 19.7, 4.0, 2.7, 45%, 83%
McConnell (junior transfer) - 8.4, 5.3, 3.6, 45%, 62%

Statistically, Nico compares VERY favorably to our best PGs. I would ask, Spiff, whether you consider Nico's overall impact as a freshman to be as significant as some of these others. Are these statistical measures the only way we can account for a player's impact? How many big shots did Nico hit? How many times did he come up big or flat in a critical game? With some of these others -- particularly Bibby, Gardner and McConnell -- their presence on the court was often the difference between a win and a loss. Is the same true of Nico?

Anyway, didn't mean to drag this on. Appreciate the conversation.
Perhaps I'm a Nico fanboy, but here's my thoughts. Bibby was flanked by Simon and Dickerson on the perimeter, vs Nico's Dylan Smith and Josh Green. Gardner had Arenas and Jefferson. Mustafa had Salim and Iggy. Bayless had Budinger and McClellan. TJ had Nick Johnson and Aaron Gordon.

I'd rate Nico and Bayless as the two most statistically impressive and also as the least accomplished in terms of results. I don't see that as an accident. My take is they produced more on lesser teams because they had to shoulder the load teammates couldn't.

It's easier to be a difference maker when your teammates keep you close and your contributions take it over the top. Nico and Bayless either had to play well or we'd lose by 10. Guys like Bibby, Gardner, TJ and Staf, the rest of the team could keep us competitive if they were off.

I will say, I think that comparison is a great one for understanding what I was driving at. Everyone on that list but TJ was a 5 star McDonald's AA. I think Nico produced comparably for a guy of that pedigree, and it's just a matter of comparing opportunity, team around him, etc. if we tried to rank them. Which is my thing with Nico. I think he lived up to what we should reasonably expect, but his shooting struggles meant he didn't exceed expectations.

Personally, I'd rank the 5 stars (freshman season alone):

1. Bibby.
2. Tie between Gardner, Bayless and Nico.
3. Mustafa.

It's crazy to think what Nico might've done if he'd had the teammates TJ did in 2013-14. NJ, AG, RHJ, BA, KT...what a team we had.

Comparing Nico's supporting cast to that one TJ had makes pretty clear how hard it is for a point guard, even a very good one, to elevate his team into a contender.

I did want to steer this back to Tyty at some point, and try to think about how his game might complement our current roster, but I'm starting to get the impression he isn't coming.

Posted: **Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:15 pm**

It seemed that Nico was not the defender that tj was. Since I live in Michigan and didn't spend money on tv till the mark lyons era, I don't really have much to go on. TJ did a lot of things that don't show up in the stat line. How many times did Nico Roar compared to TJ? How many times did Nico get in a teammates grill and get them on the right page? How many times did he make the right pass at the right time to the right person to shift momentum?

I loved Tj and what he brought to the game. Maybe Nico would have done that as a junior, it's really hard to tell.

Posted: **Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:20 pm**

Beachcat97 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:08 pm
Spaceman Spiff wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:25 pm
Beachcat97 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:22 pm I suppose we could compare Nico's freshman year to other big-minute AZ PGs in their first year.

Nico - 14ppg, 5.3apg, 2.5rpg, 39%FG, 79%FT
Bibby - 13.5, 5.2, 3.2, 44%, 70%
Gardner - 12.6, 4.8, 3.7, 37%, 72%
Shakur - 9.4, 4.5, 3.6, 51%, 80%
Bayless - 19.7, 4.0, 2.7, 45%, 83%
McConnell (junior transfer) - 8.4, 5.3, 3.6, 45%, 62%

Statistically, Nico compares VERY favorably to our best PGs. I would ask, Spiff, whether you consider Nico's overall impact as a freshman to be as significant as some of these others. Are these statistical measures the only way we can account for a player's impact? How many big shots did Nico hit? How many times did he come up big or flat in a critical game? With some of these others -- particularly Bibby, Gardner and McConnell -- their presence on the court was often the difference between a win and a loss. Is the same true of Nico?

Anyway, didn't mean to drag this on. Appreciate the conversation.
Perhaps I'm a Nico fanboy, but here's my thoughts. Bibby was flanked by Simon and Dickerson on the perimeter, vs Nico's Dylan Smith and Josh Green. Gardner had Arenas and Jefferson. Mustafa had Salim and Iggy. Bayless had Budinger and McClellan. TJ had Nick Johnson and Aaron Gordon.

I'd rate Nico and Bayless as the two most statistically impressive and also as the least accomplished in terms of results. I don't see that as an accident. My take is they produced more on lesser teams because they had to shoulder the load teammates couldn't.

It's easier to be a difference maker when your teammates keep you close and your contributions take it over the top. Nico and Bayless either had to play well or we'd lose by 10. Guys like Bibby, Gardner, TJ and Staf, the rest of the team could keep us competitive if they were off.

I will say, I think that comparison is a great one for understanding what I was driving at. Everyone on that list but TJ was a 5 star McDonald's AA. I think Nico produced comparably for a guy of that pedigree, and it's just a matter of comparing opportunity, team around him, etc. if we tried to rank them. Which is my thing with Nico. I think he lived up to what we should reasonably expect, but his shooting struggles meant he didn't exceed expectations.

Personally, I'd rank the 5 stars (freshman season alone):

1. Bibby.
2. Tie between Gardner, Bayless and Nico.
3. Mustafa.
It's crazy to think what Nico might've done if he'd had the teammates TJ did in 2013-14. NJ, AG, RHJ, BA, KT...what a team we had.

Comparing Nico's supporting cast to that one TJ had makes pretty clear how hard it is for a point guard, even a very good one, to elevate his team into a contender.

I did want to steer this back to Tyty at some point, and try to think about how his game might complement our current roster, but I'm starting to get the impression he isn't coming.

Nico ended up being somewhat underwhelming and did not live up to his billing, but as you pointed out, there were issues with his supporting cast with respect to experience and depth. Had Nico come into the program with guys like Gordon, N. Johnson, and Bash, it may have been different. That said, he still didn't have the killer-instinct of a guy like Bibby, who had shoulder quite a bit (along with Dickerson) by playing half a season without Simon. And TJ may not have had the natural gifts of Nico, but he was a greater leader.

Posted: **Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:36 pm**

U.P. Zona Fan wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:15 pm It seemed that Nico was not the defender that tj was. Since I live in Michigan and didn't spend money on tv till the mark lyons era, I don't really have much to go on. TJ did a lot of things that don't show up in the stat line. How many times did Nico Roar compared to TJ? How many times did Nico get in a teammates grill and get them on the right page? How many times did he make the right pass at the right time to the right person to shift momentum?

I loved Tj and what he brought to the game. Maybe Nico would have done that as a junior, it's really hard to tell.

I mean, it makes a difference whether you're passing to Aaron Gordon or Dylan Smith.

It's easier when you've got Nick Johnson, Aaron Gordon, RHJ, Ashley and Zeus. Those people can be the right guy. Nico's options for the right guy were Zeke and...

I mean, look at this tape and tell me you don't see energy, smart decisions and what you want:

https://youtu.be/fB1Pr_wSNsU

I do legit think a large part of the issue was if Nico wasn't on his game, those opportunities didn't exist because no one else could keep us close.

Posted: **Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:39 pm**

cough Tommy Lloyd thread cough

Posted: **Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:56 pm**

I didn’t think Zeke was supposed to be OAD.
I guess I expected more of Nico because of hype.
I thought he believed he had more range than he did. Maybe due to injury?
Seemed like he would brick 3s from 5-7 feet behind line but if he was at or near line he would make them.
Also, that shot put floater never seemed to fall for him.
Lastly, when he got to the rim he would alter shot or try to go under backboard and miss layups. Again I wonder if he was avoiding contact due to injury.

It seemed to me that he never recovered from the injury. Don’t remember if it was in Baylor game or just before.

EDIT: Tommy Lloyd

Posted: **Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:59 pm**

Jefe wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:39 pm cough Tommy Lloyd thread cough

I'd like to bring it back to a discussion of our PG situation for next season, whether it's Tyty or someone else.

Posted: **Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:00 pm**

Kerr Kriisa ?

Posted: **Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:01 pm**

How about the position Lloyd played in college and how his numbers compared to Nico

Posted: **Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:07 pm**

Postmaster wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:00 pm Kerr Kriisa ?

He can't drive to the basket which is essential to being a PG. Defense will just keep a man in front of him. Akinjo was quite good at driving, which requires someone to help, leaving a man open.

Posted: **Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:25 pm**

Merkin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:07 pm
Postmaster wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:00 pm Kerr Kriisa ?
He can't drive to the basket which is essential to being a PG. Defense will just keep a man in front of him. Akinjo was quite good at driving, which requires someone to help, leaving a man open.

Yeah, Kriisa's development may also be slower because of lost reps last year. We haven't seen him log big minutes at the point yet. Between him and Tyty (or a transfer), we should be fine.

I'm also wondering about the kind of guard that would best complement Mathurin and Kriisa.

Posted: **Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:30 pm**

Beachcat97 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:25 pm
Merkin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:07 pm
Postmaster wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:00 pm Kerr Kriisa ?
He can't drive to the basket which is essential to being a PG. Defense will just keep a man in front of him. Akinjo was quite good at driving, which requires someone to help, leaving a man open.
Yeah, Kriisa's development may also be slower because of lost reps last year. We haven't seen him log big minutes at the point yet. Between him and Tyty (or a transfer), we should be fine.

I'm also wondering about the kind of guard that would best complement Mathurin and Kriisa.

We at a minimum need two additional guards who will get playing time to be competitive next year. Ideally Kerr would be coming off the bench backing up the 1 and the 2.

Posted: **Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:59 pm**

CTL sure is a lot more patient than me.

Posted: **Sat May 01, 2021 5:01 pm**

Posted: **Sat May 01, 2021 9:21 pm**

Shouldn't it list Gonzaga since that's the school he won this under?

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 1:22 am**

Don't tell Gilbert Arenas this is happening!!!!!

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 8:51 am**

This story taught me there is an assistant coaches hall of fame.

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 1:19 pm**

MPG 35.7 - PPG 19.7 - RB 2.7 - AST 4.0 - FG% 45.8 - FG3% 40.7 - FT% 83.9

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 1:22 pm**

azgreg wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 5:01 pm

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 1:27 pm**

Don't laugh. Some of them are children of the all-time most highly decorated substitute teachers.

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 1:30 pm**

Longhorned wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 1:27 pm Don't laugh. Some of them are children of the all-time most highly decorated substitute teachers.

oh boy that tickled me just right...assistant coach hall of fame.

cant stop laughing

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 1:31 pm**

97cats wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 1:19 pm MPG 35.7 - PPG 19.7 - RB 2.7 - AST 4.0 - FG% 45.8 - FG3% 40.7 - FT% 83.9

Bayless?

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 1:45 pm**

When do the 12th man HOF announcements get made?

I can't wait!

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 1:57 pm**

Longhorned wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 1:27 pm Don't laugh. Some of them are children of the all-time most highly decorated substitute teachers.

The underrated part of that post is I know who Bill Guthridge is and obviously Lloyd.

I have zero clue who the remaining people on that list are, with the exception of what's in that picture. So apparently that one dude is/was an assistant at Baylor, and hopefully not during the Dave Bliss days. Or the rape culture days.

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 1:59 pm**

Alieberman wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 1:45 pm When do the 12th man HOF announcements get made?

I can't wait!

It's hard to know if I'm team David Bagga or team Jacob Hazzard for this one. I grew up with Bagga, but Hazzard was the ultimate garbage time get mine guy.

Also, Hazzard has the rare distinction of posting two 20+ PER's and two -20+ PER's in a 4 year career. He's also the player that educated me negative PER exists.

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 2:11 pm**

Spaceman Spiff wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 1:59 pm
Alieberman wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 1:45 pm When do the 12th man HOF announcements get made?

I can't wait!
It's hard to know if I'm team David Bagga or team Jacob Hazzard for this one. I grew up with Bagga, but Hazzard was the ultimate garbage time get mine guy.

Also, Hazzard has the rare distinction of posting two 20+ PER's and two -20+ PER's in a 4 year career. He's also the player that educated me negative PER exists.

No way. And sorry to keep beating a dead horse, but it's Fil Torres. He'll always be the only 12th man who so pissed off HOF Lute Olson that he actually ripped him in his post-game comments.

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 2:22 pm**

No love for MIKE "FUCKING" SCHWERTLEY?!!!

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 2:33 pm**

Cliff Johns

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 2:46 pm**

Casey Schmidt

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 2:55 pm**

Gene Edgerson, only UA player ever to play on 2 Final Fours.

Also ejected for breaking some Euro's nose with his elbow in some exhibition game.

Took a year off to complete his coursework to be a kindergarten teacher.

Had a good job playing for the Harlem Globetrotters, then ended up being arrested twice for DV and was fired.

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 3:15 pm**

Rolf Jacobs.

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 3:23 pm**

Irish27 wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 3:15 pmRolf Jacobs.

Ah yes, broke the nose of Craig McMillan in practice.

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 3:26 pm**

Brian David. Did he ever lose a game he logged minutes in?

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 4:34 pm**

John Ash and it’s not close.

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 5:01 pm**

Kevin Flanagan would tend to disagree.

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 5:30 pm**

David Lee?
John Ash
Of course the ultimate has to be Josh

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 5:32 pm**

Who was the tall guy that blocked kicks?
Tyler Hansen or something like that?

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 5:37 pm**

Postmaster wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 5:32 pm Who was the tall guy that blocked kicks?
Tyler Hansen or something like that?

Close - Peter Hansen

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 5:59 pm**

Craig Bergman or Ortege Jenkins. Two greatest QB walk ons to the basketball team

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 9:00 pm**

Spaceman Spiff wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 1:59 pm
Alieberman wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 1:45 pm When do the 12th man HOF announcements get made?

I can't wait!
It's hard to know if I'm team David Bagga or team Jacob Hazzard for this one. I grew up with Bagga, but Hazzard was the ultimate garbage time get mine guy.

Also, Hazzard has the rare distinction of posting two 20+ PER's and two -20+ PER's in a 4 year career. He's also the player that educated me negative PER exists.

I'm an avowed stat guy and this is my favorie Arizona stat - thank you, Spiff.

Also: Team Bagga

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 9:14 pm**

YoDeFoe wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 9:00 pm
Spaceman Spiff wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 1:59 pm
Alieberman wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 1:45 pm When do the 12th man HOF announcements get made?

I can't wait!
It's hard to know if I'm team David Bagga or team Jacob Hazzard for this one. I grew up with Bagga, but Hazzard was the ultimate garbage time get mine guy.

Also, Hazzard has the rare distinction of posting two 20+ PER's and two -20+ PER's in a 4 year career. He's also the player that educated me negative PER exists.
I'm an avowed stat guy and this is my favorie Arizona stat - thank you, Spiff.

Also: Team Bagga

His per 40 min scoring average is equally hilarious.

Freshman, 0.0
Soph, 27.6
Jr, 3.0
Sr, 27.7.

Posted: **Mon May 03, 2021 9:30 pm**

I vote for Bruce Fraser the original Gumby. McKale used to go insane if he scored.

Posted: **Tue May 04, 2021 8:27 am**

How about Josh Pastner? The biggest bench cheerleader in program history, an assistant under Lute and Calipari, ran Memphis into the ground, got involved in some bizarre love-triangle shakedown, and now oversees mediocrity at Georgia Tech.

Posted: **Tue May 04, 2021 8:33 am**

Didn't Pastner have the record for most appearances without ever being in a losing game?

Posted: **Tue May 04, 2021 9:44 am**

ACC Conference Champion, Georgia Tech.

Posted: **Tue May 04, 2021 3:19 pm**

Interesting article, including spelling McKale wrong, gloom and doom on the looming sanctions, and a fascinating Robbins tidbit.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-baske ... -wildcats/

Posted: **Tue May 04, 2021 3:39 pm**

ekat wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 3:19 pm Interesting article, including spelling McKale wrong, gloom and doom on the looming sanctions, and a fascinating Robbins tidbit.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-baske ... -wildcats/

That explains it, Bob Rob has his connection to Tommy thru Turiaf and heart surgery. All his big hires have to have some connection to him and his heart surgery past.

Posted: **Tue May 04, 2021 8:43 pm**

People really should edit things before they publish.

Seemed like Miller had things going in a good direction. Not sure the program was paralyzed.
I aaume that quote was from Heeke.
I picked out the part where Bobbin’ Robbins just wanted his own coaches.

Posted: **Wed May 05, 2021 4:50 am**

Dennis Dodd is a shit NCAA football guy, so it's natural to see if he could be worse covering basketball.

Bear Down Wildcats

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