When do we start recruiting actual Point Guards?

[TheGreatCatsby]

The real heading of this thread should be When do we start recruiting Dillon Brooks and Tyler Dorsey?

[SCCats]

The real heading of this thread should be When do we start recruiting Dillon Brooks and Tyler Dorsey?

Hopefully soon.

[gumby]

There's something to this idea of recruiting studs whose game doesn't translate all that well to the NBA, because of their tweener size.

The undersized twos and threes are the guys who come back. If they don't switch to PG, what are they going to do in the League? That's why Simon and Dickerson played four years. I know Khalid wanted some run as PG for this reason, but we had Damon.

If they had the size of Stanimal and RHJ, they might've departed sooner.

Are you listening, Allonzo?

[baconus66]

Mayes and Turner we major fails, Lyons and Jones too to a certain extent.

Calling Momo a failure is lunacy. He was the only person on that team that wanted the ball in his hand when things got bad. If it weren't for Momo we would have lost to Memphis and Duke, not to mention a good number of regular season games. He might have have rough but he was exactly the player that team needed.

[gumby]

Teams need role players, which is what Mayes was to be all along. Was Lavender a miss? They can't all be stars.

Turner was an obvious face-plant, and there were plenty of warning signs along the way.

Mayes and Momo were in that transition time when Miller had to scramble to get players. Lyons, too. Kind of amazing to me that we got Solo, Momo and DW right away. Program was in disarray.

Who did we miss out on because the coaches "blew" the evaluations of those guys? I had my frustrations with Momo, but compared to what player that we could've landed instead?

[azcat49]

Not a PG analogy but when I was watching Jackson guarding Brooks it came to my mind that this is what a 5 star guy looks like guarding a 3 star guy (no idea what Brooks was).

JJ had crazy length, quickness to match and was taller. He totally took Brooks out of the game.

You can't get superstars in every spot but like when we had RHJ it is important to be able to take out the other teams best guy while you get some production from your guy

[zonagrad]

Not a PG analogy but when I was watching Jackson guarding Brooks it came to my mind that this is what a 5 star guy looks like guarding a 3 star guy (no idea what Brooks was).

JJ had crazy length, quickness to match and was taller. He totally took Brooks out of the game.

You can't get superstars in every spot but like when we had RHJ it is important to be able to take out the other teams best guy while you get some production from your guy

NCAA tourney and all basketball is about match ups. UNLV used Stacey Augmon to neutralize Sean Elliott in '89. And nobody else was able to step up and fill the void.

[ChooChooCat]

Teams need role players, which is what Mayes was to be all along. Was Lavender a miss? They can't all be stars.

Turner was a obvious face-plant, and there were plenty of warning signs along the way.

Mayes and Momo were in that transition time when Miller had to scramble to get players. Lyons, too. Kind of amazing to me that we got Solo, Momo and DW right away. Program was in disarray.

Who did we miss out on because the coaches "blew" the evaluations of those guys? I had my frustrations with Momo, but compared to what player that we could've landed instead?

IMO the only guy we blew an evaluation on so far has been Parker. He's supposedly a 4 star guy...can't say I see it.

[Longhorned]

NCAA tourney and all basketball is about match ups. UNLV used Stacey Augmon to neutralize Sean Elliott in '89. And nobody else was able to step up and fill the void.

That was the second time Arizona played UNLV that year. The first time, UNLV lost and Tarkanian didn't show his hand.

[UAEebs86]

Teams need role players, which is what Mayes was to be all along. Was Lavender a miss? They can't all be stars.

Turner was a obvious face-plant, and there were plenty of warning signs along the way.

Mayes and Momo were in that transition time when Miller had to scramble to get players. Lyons, too. Kind of amazing to me that we got Solo, Momo and DW right away. Program was in disarray.

Who did we miss out on because the coaches "blew" the evaluations of those guys? I had my frustrations with Momo, but compared to what player that we could've landed instead?

IMO the only guy we blew an evaluation on so far has been Parker. He's supposedly a 4 star guy...can't say I see it.

4 star player with a 2 star body.

[Longhorned]

Teams need role players, which is what Mayes was to be all along. Was Lavender a miss? They can't all be stars.

Turner was a obvious face-plant, and there were plenty of warning signs along the way.

Mayes and Momo were in that transition time when Miller had to scramble to get players. Lyons, too. Kind of amazing to me that we got Solo, Momo and DW right away. Program was in disarray.

Who did we miss out on because the coaches "blew" the evaluations of those guys? I had my frustrations with Momo, but compared to what player that we could've landed instead?

IMO the only guy we blew an evaluation on so far has been Parker. He's supposedly a 4 star guy...can't say I see it.

Evaluation isn't an exact science, and I have great respect for those who evaluated him, but that was one of their rare misses that proves the rule that they're really good scouts. They evaluated PJC as a 5-star if not for his size, and it was argued that his size and related 4-star rating was a benefit to the program because he'd otherwise be straight to the NBA with another few inches on him.

[VegasCatFan]

Are the stars given out based on how they play and compare to the other players in their high school class? Or is it based on their projections for college? If it's based on how they compare to other high school players then I can understand Parker being a 4*. But if it's based on how he projected in college, then he was definitely overrated as a 4*.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Teams need role players, which is what Mayes was to be all along. Was Lavender a miss? They can't all be stars.

Turner was a obvious face-plant, and there were plenty of warning signs along the way.

Mayes and Momo were in that transition time when Miller had to scramble to get players. Lyons, too. Kind of amazing to me that we got Solo, Momo and DW right away. Program was in disarray.

Who did we miss out on because the coaches "blew" the evaluations of those guys? I had my frustrations with Momo, but compared to what player that we could've landed instead?

I agree that Miller didn't have choices when Momo and Mayes were recruited. Turner hurt and led to needing Lyons. Really, 3 of those recruits were people we weren't in a position to turn down.

PJC has not panned out like we would have wanted, but it would have been less impactful if we had other PG's around. I don't know if Simon and Simmons were supposed to be the competition, but we have a lot of eggs in PJC's basket, and there hasn't been the payoff you'd think.

[Longhorned]

Are the stars given out based on how they play and compare to the other players in their high school class? Or is it based on their projections for college? If it's based on how they compare to other high school players then I can understand Parker being a 4*. But if it's based on how he projected in college, then he was definitely overrated as a 4*.

It's based on pro potential -- a player's ultimate upside.

[gumby]

Teams need role players, which is what Mayes was to be all along. Was Lavender a miss? They can't all be stars.

Turner was a obvious face-plant, and there were plenty of warning signs along the way.

Mayes and Momo were in that transition time when Miller had to scramble to get players. Lyons, too. Kind of amazing to me that we got Solo, Momo and DW right away. Program was in disarray.

Who did we miss out on because the coaches "blew" the evaluations of those guys? I had my frustrations with Momo, but compared to what player that we could've landed instead?

IMO the only guy we blew an evaluation on so far has been Parker. He's supposedly a 4 star guy...can't say I see it.

Horne was a 5-star, though not Miller's recruit. All of the physical attributes of one, but not the skills.

[gumby]

NCAA tourney and all basketball is about match ups. UNLV used Stacey Augmon to neutralize Sean Elliott in '89. And nobody else was able to step up and fill the void.

That was the second time Arizona played UNLV that year. The first time, UNLV lost and Tarkanian didn't show his hand.

This is like the Steve Nash myth, where he beat us. He went 1/7 and hit free throws down the stretch.

Elliott scored 22 points on 8/16 shooting and had 14 rebounds. Both totals over his season's average. Augmon, 15 and 6. This wasn't Jackson vs. Brooks.

It was about matchups. Othich and Lofton went 4/16 for 11 points. Anderson Hunt 8/12 for 21 points. There's the difference, including the game winner.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/box ... izona.html" target="_blank

[Merkin]

This is like the Steve Nash myth, where he beat us. He went 1/7 and hit free throws down the stretch.

Nash also missed 2 FTs with a minute left. Some other white dude also missed 2 FTs in the last minute, but Arizona couldn't capitalize on either choke.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Teams need role players, which is what Mayes was to be all along. Was Lavender a miss? They can't all be stars.

Turner was a obvious face-plant, and there were plenty of warning signs along the way.

Mayes and Momo were in that transition time when Miller had to scramble to get players. Lyons, too. Kind of amazing to me that we got Solo, Momo and DW right away. Program was in disarray.

Who did we miss out on because the coaches "blew" the evaluations of those guys? I had my frustrations with Momo, but compared to what player that we could've landed instead?

IMO the only guy we blew an evaluation on so far has been Parker. He's supposedly a 4 star guy...can't say I see it.

Horne was a 5-star, though not Miller's recruit. All of the physical attributes of one, but not the skills.

If you're looking for similar Miller recruits with issues, Sidiki Johnson is a layup. He was part of the same time period where we didn't have the recruiting machine up and running. If I remember right, he was the first recruit of the 2011-12 class, which is probably the biggest whiff of Miller's recruiting of the classes where he had some time.

[Longhorned]

NCAA tourney and all basketball is about match ups. UNLV used Stacey Augmon to neutralize Sean Elliott in '89. And nobody else was able to step up and fill the void.

That was the second time Arizona played UNLV that year. The first time, UNLV lost and Tarkanian didn't show his hand.

This is like the Steve Nash myth, where he beat us. He went 1/7 and hit free throws down the stretch.

Elliott scored 22 points on 8/16 shooting and had 14 rebounds. Both totals over his season's average. Augmon, 15 and 6. This wasn't Jackson vs. Brooks.

It was about matchups. Othich and Lofton went 4/16 for 11 points. Anderson Hunt 8/12 for 21 points. There's the difference, including the game winner.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/box ... izona.html" target="_blank

Thanks. My memories have truthiness that the facts don't stand up to, but emotions color losses. Just as clearly as that game-winning shot, I remember an already dejected Sean Elliott waiting downcourt for Arizona's final possession with just a second remaining on the clock.

Most vividly, though, I remember Elliott in the bowels of the arena near the entrance to the locker room after the final horn, crying in the arms of his own mother. Yet this is impossible, since I was at that very moment crying myself under the coffee table of my apartment in Tucson.

[gumby]

Teams need role players, which is what Mayes was to be all along. Was Lavender a miss? They can't all be stars.

Turner was a obvious face-plant, and there were plenty of warning signs along the way.

Mayes and Momo were in that transition time when Miller had to scramble to get players. Lyons, too. Kind of amazing to me that we got Solo, Momo and DW right away. Program was in disarray.

Who did we miss out on because the coaches "blew" the evaluations of those guys? I had my frustrations with Momo, but compared to what player that we could've landed instead?

IMO the only guy we blew an evaluation on so far has been Parker. He's supposedly a 4 star guy...can't say I see it.

Horne was a 5-star, though not Miller's recruit. All of the physical attributes of one, but not the skills.

If you're looking for similar Miller recruits with issues, Sidiki Johnson is a layup. He was part of the same time period where we didn't have the recruiting machine up and running. If I remember right, he was the first recruit of the 2011-12 class, which is probably the biggest whiff of Miller's recruiting of the classes where he had some time.

Yes. Good point.

[gumby]

NCAA tourney and all basketball is about match ups. UNLV used Stacey Augmon to neutralize Sean Elliott in '89. And nobody else was able to step up and fill the void.

That was the second time Arizona played UNLV that year. The first time, UNLV lost and Tarkanian didn't show his hand.

This is like the Steve Nash myth, where he beat us. He went 1/7 and hit free throws down the stretch.

Elliott scored 22 points on 8/16 shooting and had 14 rebounds. Both totals over his season's average. Augmon, 15 and 6. This wasn't Jackson vs. Brooks.

It was about matchups. Othich and Lofton went 4/16 for 11 points. Anderson Hunt 8/12 for 21 points. There's the difference, including the game winner.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/box ... izona.html" target="_blank

Thanks. My memories have truthiness that the facts don't stand up to, but emotions color losses. Just as clearly as that game-winning shot, I remember an already dejected Sean Elliott waiting downcourt for Arizona's final possession with just a second remaining on the clock.

Most vividly, though, I remember Elliott in the bowels of the arena near the entrance to the locker room after the final horn, crying in the arms of his own mother. Yet this is impossible, since I was at that very moment crying myself under the coffee table of my apartment in Tucson.

It was sickening, for sure. Then to see Michigan and Seton Hall (a team we blasted in the 1988 tourney) in the final. Neither one a 1 seed.

Ugh!

Correction: Elliott matched his season average of 22 points. Problem was backcourt by committee. No guard averaged at least 8ppg.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/sch ... /1989.html" target="_blank

[zonagrad]

NCAA tourney and all basketball is about match ups. UNLV used Stacey Augmon to neutralize Sean Elliott in '89. And nobody else was able to step up and fill the void.

That was the second time Arizona played UNLV that year. The first time, UNLV lost and Tarkanian didn't show his hand.

This is like the Steve Nash myth, where he beat us. He went 1/7 and hit free throws down the stretch.

Elliott scored 22 points on 8/16 shooting and had 14 rebounds. Both totals over his season's average. Augmon, 15 and 6. This wasn't Jackson vs. Brooks.

It was about matchups. Othich and Lofton went 4/16 for 11 points. Anderson Hunt 8/12 for 21 points. There's the difference, including the game winner.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/box ... izona.html" target="_blank

Thanks for pointing out those stats. My memory wasn't that Elliott didn't play well, it's just that he alone had a pretty tough battle going on against Augmon, who was such defensive specialist. But our guards were overmatched against UNLV. And that was pretty much the story of Arizona's backcourts until 1994. We weren't very athletic with Othic & Muehlebach. It's also the reason we flamed out pretty early against Alabama in '90 & ETSU in '92.

[gumby]

Yep. Then Damon and Khalid, and we modernized the approach. The 1990s were the heyday of guard play for this program.

[prh]

Nigel-Williams Goss grad transfer

[EVCat]

Lavender was during the downside of the program and was an Arizona in-state grab. But it wasn't a typical Arizona recruiting story.

We offered PJC very, very early when he was tearing up his class in AAU ball. I think there was a reasonable expectation that he might be a couple of inches taller based on his dad and brother. Parker at a true 5'11" would actually be a very effective PG. And if you offer early, you can back off, but it certainly looks like this wasn't the family to do that to for reputational risk. The one mistake related to PJC is letting his family hold us hostage for a recruiting cycle. Not his actual signing.

[TheGreatCatsby]

^ Gee, great!