Bear Down Wildcats

ChooChooCat wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

Zero wrote:

Merkin wrote:Why would PJC start over Kadeem Allen even first game of the season?

Because I think Miller will put him at his natural position as an off guard.

If we're starting PJC and KA in the backcourt, I'm worried.

I would think KA vs KS is highly competitive at the start of the year with Kadeem's experience level. Hopefully KS learns fast and KA can be a combo guard to lead our second unit and make sure that we have plenty of wing depth with AT/RS/RA as our other 3 options.

Ray is our only real SF. The rest, we can play a 3 guard lineup. Having Kadeem to give us flexibility in those 3 guards should help a lot. If Kobi is ready, I'm not sure if PJC has a role or how big it is.

What qualifies one as a real SF and why isn't Rawle one?

I feel like we've had this argument before...

Rawle can absolutely play alongside Trier on the wing. It isn't a criticism of him. He's the same height as Trier and about 8-10 pounds heavier. Physically, he's a 2. At the college level, there is plenty of fluidity on the perimeter, so we're fine running 3 guards, but Rawle is a guard.

Also, he's from New York. That means he is unlikely to be a SF, right?

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

Zero wrote:

Merkin wrote:Why would PJC start over Kadeem Allen even first game of the season?

Because I think Miller will put him at his natural position as an off guard.

If we're starting PJC and KA in the backcourt, I'm worried.

I would think KA vs KS is highly competitive at the start of the year with Kadeem's experience level. Hopefully KS learns fast and KA can be a combo guard to lead our second unit and make sure that we have plenty of wing depth with AT/RS/RA as our other 3 options.

Ray is our only real SF. The rest, we can play a 3 guard lineup. Having Kadeem to give us flexibility in those 3 guards should help a lot. If Kobi is ready, I'm not sure if PJC has a role or how big it is.

What qualifies one as a real SF and why isn't Rawle one?

I feel like we've had this argument before...

Rawle can absolutely play alongside Trier on the wing. It isn't a criticism of him. He's the same height as Trier and about 8-10 pounds heavier. Physically, he's a 2. At the college level, there is plenty of fluidity on the perimeter, so we're fine running 3 guards, but Rawle is a guard.

Also, he's from New York. That means he is unlikely to be a SF, right?

Lol we've had and I'm just busting your balls. Rawle for all intents and purposes is a 2 guard in regards to what his pro position is no question. In college though the 2/3 spot are so interchangeable that the only difference really is the height (sometimes weight) of the two wings currently on the floor. I agree with you that Ray is a pure 3 man, but he's still very likely going to be plugging at least half his minutes at the 4 spot for next year's team. Rawle also is a 2, but the lion's share of his minutes for sure will come at the 3 based on our roster and getting the most talented guys out on the court together of course.

Quick question though and I'm sorry if my sarcasm-o-meter is off, but are SFs now allowed to be born and bred in NYC?

I think KA starts. KS will have to earn his spot.
KA
AT
RA
LM
DR

How crazy good is this bench lineup?!
PJC
KS
RS
KP
CC

The itch is growing. Nothing like mid summer prognostications!

I'd rather see CC or RS in that starting 5.

Beachcat97 wrote:I'd rather see CC or RS in that starting 5.

I completely agree with you. I think their athleticism could bring something to the table. I think Dusan will get the nod at the beginning of the year. Can't wait to see if Chance put on some muscle.

Frybry02 wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote:I'd rather see CC or RS in that starting 5.

I completely agree with you. I think their athleticism could bring something to the table. I think Dusan will get the nod at the beginning of the year. Can't wait to see if Chance put on some muscle.

DR is our only "true 5," if that even exists anymore. Positions have gotten much more fluid. I hope DR arrives this fall in the best shape of his life. We need him playing big minutes, not just the occasional 5 minutes. He's not backing up Zeus anymore.

CC started to come on at the end of last season, and big things are expected this year. He, LM, and RS will be our main forwards.

There's some imbalance with our depth. Tons of guards, not as many bigs.

https://www.sny.tv/college-recruiting/n ... /192822982" target="_blank

We could've had Cameron Oliver if we wanted him too. That sucks.

My dad was watching the Aussie games. He said CC got pushed around a lot. Comanche is going to be good in the paint, just needs to get bigger and stronger.

Merkin wrote:My dad was watching the Aussie games. He said CC got pushed around a lot. Comanche is going to be good in the paint, just needs to get bigger and stronger.

Channing Frye and Jordan Hill took a little while to develop physically, but when they did...boy oh boy.

Merkin wrote:My dad was watching the Aussie games. He said CC got pushed around a lot. Comanche is going to be good in the paint, just needs to get bigger and stronger.

Your Dad was exactly right. He just didn't have the mass to stand up to Aron Baynes. Heck, even Joe Ingles pushed him around like he wasn't there.

On the other hand Kadeem played pretty well compared to the other P12 guards. He at least seemed to know what was going on most of the time.

KA didn't play much point though; the ASU kid played point most of the night. That guy would bounce around the court with no control or vision at all. He would charge full tilt towards the corner with his eyes following the ball he was trying to dribble not looking where he was going or where anyone else was. He was usually met with about 3 Aussie guys just standing there waiting for him to run into them. And he did. Every damn time. I saw him do it three times in a row right in front of me. Three stupid pointless avoidable turnovers in a row.

I wouldn't get too freaked out against Baynes. Baynes is 6'10, 260 with decent NBA experience. He's a big dude for the NBA, let alone a college sophomore.

If CC struggles with the posts we see in OOC, then I'll get more worried. Baynes should bulldoze Chance.

Lmao. Baynes is a blue collar beast and throws around grown men in the NBA. He also has like 10 years of weight programs and filling out that Comanche hasnt had a Chance (lol) at yet. Hes gonna be fine against most guys we see this year, and if we come across a bruiser hes more likely going to be a little slower and Dusan has the body to handle that better.

I think Kadeem starts at point to begin the season. Without Ferguson, I see Miller playing a lot with the lineups trying to find the right combo, and that means PJC getting decent minutes off the bench. To begin with at least. Over time, I see those minutes dwindling and PJC being that third PG Miller keeps in his back pocket in certain matchups, if KA and KS are really effing up (freshman teaching moments), or as a spark plug when no one else is getting it done. Id rather have Chance starting at the 5, but im guessing Miller starts with a lineup of Dusan, LM, Rawle, Trier, KA. With time, I can see it being Chance, LM, Smith, Trier, KS with Rawle being the great 6th man off the bench, and KA and Dusan being the next guys off the bench.

Beachcat97 wrote:

Frybry02 wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote:I'd rather see CC or RS in that starting 5.

I completely agree with you. I think their athleticism could bring something to the table. I think Dusan will get the nod at the beginning of the year. Can't wait to see if Chance put on some muscle.

DR is our only "true 5," if that even exists anymore. Positions have gotten much more fluid. I hope DR arrives this fall in the best shape of his life. We need him playing big minutes, not just the occasional 5 minutes. He's not backing up Zeus anymore.

CC started to come on at the end of last season, and big things are expected this year. He, LM, and RS will be our main forwards.

There's some imbalance with our depth. Tons of guards, not as many bigs.

Commanche is most certainly a true 5 in the college game.

Longhorned wrote:

Jefe wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote:I'll be interested to see if Kobi can actually beat out PJC and start at the 1

straight sillyness

Yep, Kobi is a future NBA player. PJC flat-out didn't pan out in the PAC-12.

I think it is far too early for statements like this. PJC has played 2 years, and while he may not have lived up to some peoples expectations, he's played 2 years. Lots of players in the program years past could have been judged in their first two years similarly...and blossomed in the last 2 years. Hell, I heard how Solo was not "panning out" and was not an NBA player, and he's laughing on the way to the bank right now.

I have not seen Kobi play a college game yet. Plenty of players have looked like NBA types before college...and I don't know where they are now.

PJC= career backup

Nothing personal, but he needed to be recruited over, and I'm so grateful Miller did that and snagged Kobi. PJC's confidence was reaching Mustafa Shakur levels at times last season because he couldn't do anything particularly well in several games.

PJC can and will improve. He's probably not going to be a star, but some here are underestimating his ability to grow and toughen. Obviously KS has a higher ceiling. How quickly can KS earn CSM's trust at the point? Can KA and KS defend opposing PGs effectively?

Have we ever had a McDonalds All American that was not starting by the start of conference play in their freshman season?

KaibabKat wrote:Have we ever had a McDonalds All American that was not starting by the start of conference play in their freshman season?

Pit Stop

How soon we forget.

KaibabKat wrote:Have we ever had a McDonalds All American that was not starting by the start of conference play in their freshman season?

Ever heard of Grant Jerrett? How about Jawann McClellan?

Smith(#19), Trier(#28) on the early list

http://www.nbadraft.net/2017mock_draft" target="_blank

as well as Markannen

Main Event wrote:Ford's Big Board 1.0: Who's on top in 2017 NBA draft rankings?

17. Lauri Markkanen
6-foot-11
Arizona
Freshman
Forward

Markkanen had a huge week at the FIBA Europe Under-20 Championship in late July. He averaged 25 PPG, 8.5 RPG and made 13 3s in the tournament -- a stat that really caught NBA scouts' attention.

Seven-footers who can shoot the ball, rebound and move well on both ends of the floor don't come along very often. Seen as a borderline first rounder before the summer, Markkanen has moved up to the lottery on the boards of several scouts.

Smith? Who is that? We used to have a guy named Smith, but then he died of complications from an ACL tear.

From Chad Ford's updated top 100 draft prospects for 2017
Lauri (17)
Kobi (43)
Ray (49)
Zo (52)
Rawle (69)

Main Event wrote:From Chad Ford's updated top 100 draft prospects for 2017
Lauri (17)
Kobi (43)
Ray (49)
Zo (52)
Rawle (69)

52nd for Trier? What's the knock on him? Kid can score, and play good defense.

Merkin wrote:

Main Event wrote:From Chad Ford's updated top 100 draft prospects for 2017
Lauri (17)
Kobi (43)
Ray (49)
Zo (52)
Rawle (69)

52nd for Trier? What's the knock on him? Kid can score, and play good defense.

If I remember right, not elite quick on the first step, and hasn't demonstrated he can work within an offense. The latter he can correct this year.

Longhorned wrote:

Merkin wrote:

Main Event wrote:From Chad Ford's updated top 100 draft prospects for 2017
Lauri (17)
Kobi (43)
Ray (49)
Zo (52)
Rawle (69)

52nd for Trier? What's the knock on him? Kid can score, and play good defense.

If I remember right, not elite quick on the first step, and hasn't demonstrated he can work within an offense. The latter he can correct this year.

And short for an NBA 2 guard. That will always hinder things.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

Longhorned wrote:

Merkin wrote:

Main Event wrote:From Chad Ford's updated top 100 draft prospects for 2017
Lauri (17)
Kobi (43)
Ray (49)
Zo (52)
Rawle (69)

52nd for Trier? What's the knock on him? Kid can score, and play good defense.

If I remember right, not elite quick on the first step, and hasn't demonstrated he can work within an offense. The latter he can correct this year.

And short for an NBA 2 guard. That will always hinder things.

Eerily similar evaluation to Agent Zero.

Chicat wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

Longhorned wrote:

Merkin wrote:

Main Event wrote:From Chad Ford's updated top 100 draft prospects for 2017
Lauri (17)
Kobi (43)
Ray (49)
Zo (52)
Rawle (69)

52nd for Trier? What's the knock on him? Kid can score, and play good defense.

If I remember right, not elite quick on the first step, and hasn't demonstrated he can work within an offense. The latter he can correct this year.

And short for an NBA 2 guard. That will always hinder things.

Eerily similar evaluation to Agent Zero.

Gil had some point guard skills in his arsenal though. Trier up to this point not so much.

ChooChooCat wrote:

KaibabKat wrote:Have we ever had a McDonalds All American that was not starting by the start of conference play in their freshman season?

Ever heard of Grant Jerrett? How about Jawann McClellan?

Hassan Adams. Lineup was Gardner, Salim, Walton, Anderson, Frye.

RHJ started six games, after Ashley went down. Then didn't start the next year in many games. Those arguments are still fresh.

Chicat wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

Longhorned wrote:

Merkin wrote:

Main Event wrote:From Chad Ford's updated top 100 draft prospects for 2017
Lauri (17)
Kobi (43)
Ray (49)
Zo (52)
Rawle (69)

52nd for Trier? What's the knock on him? Kid can score, and play good defense.

If I remember right, not elite quick on the first step, and hasn't demonstrated he can work within an offense. The latter he can correct this year.

And short for an NBA 2 guard. That will always hinder things.

Eerily similar evaluation to Agent Zero.

If Trier needs to return for a third season, because of these suspected deficiencies, yeah us! It's huge when guys like Dillon Brooks return because of tweener status.

PJC could very well start. Or Kadeem Allen. As we have seen, it's who finishes that matters. Right, Rondae? So I wouldn't take one of them starting as some kind of horrible harbinger.

Main Event wrote:From Chad Ford's updated top 100 draft prospects for 2017
Lauri (17)
Kobi (43)
Ray (49)
Zo (52)
Rawle (69)

Think that's low for Ray. He just has to show he's recovered from the injury/surgery.

Well if we play 5 NBA level guys after having none this year we should be pretty happy about the year

If Kadeem starts, that will not be a good thing. He did not look like a bona fide D1 caliber guard last year; he showed glimpses here and there, but was inconsistent at best and was a very unreliable scorer and an ineffective point guard. One has to imagine Miller had hopes of PJC being more developed by the time last year, ultimately having to rely on Kadeem, which was likely not desirable. Hopefully Kobi can master the point guard position if AZ has hopes of being a real threat, because the other two options are unappealing.

Main Event wrote:From Chad Ford's updated top 100 draft prospects for 2017
Lauri (17)
Kobi (43)
Ray (49)
Zo (52)
Rawle (69)

That's a solid roster of second round draft picks, with the exception of the KU legacy. You're welcome.

enfuego wrote:

Main Event wrote:From Chad Ford's updated top 100 draft prospects for 2017
Lauri (17)
Kobi (43)
Ray (49)
Zo (52)
Rawle (69)

That's a solid roster of second round draft picks, with the exception of the KU legacy. You're welcome.

We all saw what happened last time you had the number 1 prospect in the draft fuegs, we know how this story ends.

enfuego wrote:

Main Event wrote:From Chad Ford's updated top 100 draft prospects for 2017
Lauri (17)
Kobi (43)
Ray (49)
Zo (52)
Rawle (69)

That's a solid roster of second round draft picks, with the exception of the KU legacy. You're welcome.

Sometimes people who don't play for KU play themselves into a higher draft slot instead of a lower draft slot.

So getting back on topic, this year's AZ team is loaded with future pros.

add to that all that we have had plenty of times in Arizona history where a player who was a lesser presence in prior years and was not a pro level prospect picked up their game as a junior or senior to be a legitimate contributor.

Lots of mid-major teams ride teams filled with seniors and juniors with average talent and coaching and experience to great runs. This isn't a recipe for winning national titles, but it happens all the time. Now, add a couple of those to NBA level talent. THAT is where title contenders come from.

It is absurd to write off Kadeem or PJC at this point. Sometimes, especially at point, it takes a bit longer to grasp it all, to start reacting instead of overthinking. The talent isn't great enough to overcome the lack of experience, but once the experience is gained, that mid level talent can become a big time contributor. We forget this isn't an NBA Draft tournament...this is NCAA basketball. And while the teams with NBA talent ultimately succeed, they almost always, outside of UK, have 4 year developing players who contribute. I'll take a Final Four over the top 3 picks in the draft any time. Hopefully you have both, and the latter makes the former easier. But discarding the possibility that a PJC might have a light bulb go on and be a solid 20+ minute contributor, or that Kadeem makes a pretty normal improvement in his 2nd full year of D1 competition, is silly. It isn't either/or. We can win either way. I'd much rather have the options...

I'm not so sure PJC needs the light to go on so much as he needs to get taller and stronger. It isn't that he doesn't play intelligently or hard, his physical attributes mean he has to play to near 100% of his potential consistently to really contribute.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:I'm not so sure PJC needs the light to go on so much as he needs to get taller and stronger. It isn't that he doesn't play intelligently or hard, his physical attributes mean he has to play to near 100% of his potential consistently to really contribute.

I doubt he has physical growth potential.

But getting that 100% mental is what grows with experience. Reacting...not having to think about what you are doing before you do it. That comes with repitition

anyone want to venture a guess as to who will step up and be this year's leader? i know things will shake out quickly once practice begins, but i'm curious to hear your thoughts.

would love for 'zo to be the man, but i think personality-wise he might be naturally too chill. same with KA, maybe, and def dusan or PJC. ray or chance? i have no idea. one of the greenhorns? rawle?

dirtbags wrote:anyone want to venture a guess as to who will step up and be this year's leader? i know things will shake out quickly once practice begins, but i'm curious to hear your thoughts.

would love for 'zo to be the man, but i think personality-wise he might be naturally too chill. same with KA, maybe, and def dusan or PJC. ray or chance? i have no idea. one of the greenhorns? rawle?

Trier and he's not too "chill" either. He wants to be the guy and that was one of our issues last year because we had a senior demanding to be the guy as well.

Arizona has a lot of talented perimeter players, but lack a true point guard who can lead your team to a title. Kobi is not a true point guard. Parker is not a title quality back-up.

Main Event wrote:

enfuego wrote:

Main Event wrote:From Chad Ford's updated top 100 draft prospects for 2017
Lauri (17)
Kobi (43)
Ray (49)
Zo (52)
Rawle (69)

That's a solid roster of second round draft picks, with the exception of the KU legacy. You're welcome.

We all saw what happened last time you had the number 1 prospect in the draft fuegs, we know how this story ends.

Fair enough, but Wiggins was surrounded by inexperience and our point guard was an immature distraction and a chucker. Much different roster this year.

enfuego wrote:

Main Event wrote:

enfuego wrote:

Main Event wrote:From Chad Ford's updated top 100 draft prospects for 2017
Lauri (17)
Kobi (43)
Ray (49)
Zo (52)
Rawle (69)

That's a solid roster of second round draft picks, with the exception of the KU legacy. You're welcome.

We all saw what happened last time you had the number 1 prospect in the draft fuegs, we know how this story ends.

Fair enough, but Wiggins was surrounded by inexperience and our point guard was an immature distraction and a chucker. Much different roster this year.

I agree. Mitch Lightfoot and his elite intangibles is what'll take you guys over the top.

People are being a little rough on Kadeem, eh? In conference play, 3.3 apg to 1.8 TO, 8ppg on 45%fg and 35% 3pfg. He'll be one of our best defenders. We will have plenty of offense next year and plenty of guys who can create their own shots and hopefully keep their heads up if there is an open man when the defense reacts. He just needs to be steady, trim down his bad turnovers (half of which seemed to come on entry passes to low post players), and play D. He has to be less of a playmaker this year than he did last year. I saw a lot of good things from him last year. With more weapons and versatility, those drives to the cup are gonna be a lot easier. His shot will be better too. He was in his first season playing point, there is an expected improvement and he will be a senior. . Hes a bulldog.

TJ spoiled us. Bad. We forget how life was before him for quite a while.

I think this AZ team will be solid but probably not a league champion. Other teams have better returning players, like OR, Cal, and Ucla.

I'd say we'll finish 3rd or 4th and reach the NCAA tourney.