I've written a bunch and deleted a bunch so that I don't absolutely mince this horse; but I can't leave it without saying this:
While the G-League has recently become fertile ground for players to develop into NBA minutes, Dalen's best opportunity for growth is at Arizona. The role he'll have, the continuity of being with the same guys and coaches, the support and the green light to take shots - it's all here, and it's not in the G-League (no matter what team drafts him).
Dalen's knock is that he hasn't shown shooting volume. Arizona is the place to show it.
(Also, lol at the lengthy Dalen talk in C-Lo's thread)
Also no Leonard Miller in the 1st round, which I like.
Re: Koloko
Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 11:58 am
by Spaceman Spiff
YoDeFoe wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 11:24 am
I've written a bunch and deleted a bunch so that I don't absolutely mince this horse; but I can't leave it without saying this:
While the G-League has recently become fertile ground for players to develop into NBA minutes, Dalen's best opportunity for growth is at Arizona. The role he'll have, the continuity of being with the same guys and coaches, the support and the green light to take shots - it's all here, and it's not in the G-League (no matter what team drafts him).
Dalen's knock is that he hasn't shown shooting volume. Arizona is the place to show it.
(Also, lol at the lengthy Dalen talk in C-Lo's thread)
I'll respond to you and Choo both for simplicity's sake. Here's how I see advantages and disadvantages.
G League:
It's an advantage that the G League system exists to develop. A college coach gets fired if he develops players and loses, a G League coach is promoted. Development is the thing in the G League, not winning. At Arizona, if Terry hits a cold streak, Lloyd is going to tell him to stop shooting us out of games at some point. The G league...a real prospect gets free rein because winning isn't as much of a thing.
Pro structure. You get more games, travel more, are on the road and required to grow up more than college. You get a taste of how the NBA operates without it being 100% of the cold business.
College:
There's only one Dalen Terry at Arizona and a lot in the G League. This swings a bit both ways, as competition can force kids to step up, but he will experience being a focal point here where he won't in the G League.
More downtime can help with skill building, which he needs specific to the area of shooting. Games help with that, but so do 500 threes a day that you can't fit in on game/travel days.
I don't necessarily even disagree with you college is Dalen's best option, I mainly think the G League is significantly underrated by college fans for its developmental capabilities. Too many CBB fans act like if you don't return to college, it's a hard cap on development.
Re: Koloko
Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 12:46 pm
by Merkin
+5.25 wingspan, to go along with Terry's +5.5".
You think that would be a trend to look for, but TJ McConnell had a negative wingspan if memory serves.
Beachcat97 wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 1:49 pm
That's also the highest I've seen DT projected.
It's actually lower than Sam Vecenie of the Athletic's personal big board - he has Terry at 28th (!!). He said it wasn't based on league feedback but rather that he felt DT was a guy who teams may view as a 2023 lottery pick, so a team that felt that way could grab him with a low first / high second (quite the discount) and retain their lottery pick for a very stocked 2023 draft.
That brings me back to: okay, congrats on getting drafted Terry, but in order to stick in the league you need to develop and where will you develop better? Arizona or the G-League? My vote is Arizona for reasons I've laid out previously, with the added benefit of a lottery salary next draft, and I think that's what Terry is feeling as well.
I'll try not to beat a dead horse and say two things. First, G League is better than most people give it credit for, IMO. Kuminga and Green were two of the best rookies this year and GS used the G League to develop Kuminga from very raw to a rotation contributor on a potential championship team at 19.
Second, ok, this is beating a dead horse, but everything is potential in the NBA and late firsts stick maybe 50% of the time. I have a bet riding on thinking lottery isn't in the cards for Terry, but rotation contributor is. Not at all unreasonable to try to buy low on that potential.
I love it. The G League is great because two guys are a success story. Truth is the G League is good depending on what team is sending you there. Not every G League program is created equal due to their parent team’s commitment to it of course.
Well, if you want to look beyond specific examples, the G league had 117 players called up.to the NBA this year, about 4 per team. In terms of talent and access to the NBA, most colleges would love to have 4 NBA caliber players every year.
As such, the G League offers a chance to play multiple NBA level guys every night, learn from NBA and Euro vets and as you say, teams recognizing developmental capacity in their own farm system.
I'm not by any means saying Arizona is bad, but more that it's what I've said a bunch, both college and G League offer developmental opportunity...it generally comes down to the player more than the path they choose.
Their numbers also come with an asterisk given short term COVID-related impacts this season on rosters.
It's actually lower than Sam Vecenie of the Athletic's personal big board - he has Terry at 28th (!!). He said it wasn't based on league feedback but rather that he felt DT was a guy who teams may view as a 2023 lottery pick, so a team that felt that way could grab him with a low first / high second (quite the discount) and retain their lottery pick for a very stocked 2023 draft.
That brings me back to: okay, congrats on getting drafted Terry, but in order to stick in the league you need to develop and where will you develop better? Arizona or the G-League? My vote is Arizona for reasons I've laid out previously, with the added benefit of a lottery salary next draft, and I think that's what Terry is feeling as well.
I'll try not to beat a dead horse and say two things. First, G League is better than most people give it credit for, IMO. Kuminga and Green were two of the best rookies this year and GS used the G League to develop Kuminga from very raw to a rotation contributor on a potential championship team at 19.
Second, ok, this is beating a dead horse, but everything is potential in the NBA and late firsts stick maybe 50% of the time. I have a bet riding on thinking lottery isn't in the cards for Terry, but rotation contributor is. Not at all unreasonable to try to buy low on that potential.
I love it. The G League is great because two guys are a success story. Truth is the G League is good depending on what team is sending you there. Not every G League program is created equal due to their parent team’s commitment to it of course.
Well, if you want to look beyond specific examples, the G league had 117 players called up.to the NBA this year, about 4 per team. In terms of talent and access to the NBA, most colleges would love to have 4 NBA caliber players every year.
As such, the G League offers a chance to play multiple NBA level guys every night, learn from NBA and Euro vets and as you say, teams recognizing developmental capacity in their own farm system.
I'm not by any means saying Arizona is bad, but more that it's what I've said a bunch, both college and G League offer developmental opportunity...it generally comes down to the player more than the path they choose.
There numbers also come with an asterisk given short term COVID-related impacts this season on rosters.
Very fair point. Numbers have fluctuated, but 117 is definitely a high end. To be fully transparent looking back, 50-60 is much more the norm.
I would still argue the talent/access point based on previous year numbers, but you have a fully fair point that 21-22 was an outlier.
Re: Koloko
Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 3:38 pm
by YoDeFoe
Merkin wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 12:46 pm
+5.25 wingspan, to go along with Terry's +5.5".
You think that would be a trend to look for, but TJ McConnell had a negative wingspan if memory serves.
Plus wingspan is definitely an NBA trait (where only PGs aren't severely dinged for not having it). It's part of why I like Pelle as an NBA prospect - 6'5" with a 6'9" wingspan (plus he can actually dribble, pass, defend, and shoot).
Re: Koloko
Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 4:53 pm
by UAEebs86
Re: Koloko
Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 8:06 pm
by KaibabKat
Channing Frye II.
Re: Koloko
Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 9:51 pm
by Chicat
Lot of raised eyebrows in the scouting departments in the 13-20 range all of a sudden.
I'm not going to say this is overall representative of where Koloko is, but it's at least something I think shows NBA scouts that his developmental curve isn't near maxed.
He's made a lot of strides and results like that just show that he can make more. The only area I truly wonder how much development is left is physically.
UA center Christian Koloko, meanwhile, may have helped himself in both body measurements and speed/agility testing.
Projected as a late-first-round or second-round pick, Koloko rated second among centers in wingspan (7 feet, 5.25 inches) and tied for second in standing reach (9 feet, 5 inches). He was fourth among centers in height without shoes at 6-10.75.
Koloko also finished second in max (running) vertical leap (33.5 inches), tied for third in standing vertical leap (28.0 inches) and was second in three speed and agility tests – the shuttle run, three-quarter court sprint and lane agility drill..
UA center Christian Koloko, meanwhile, may have helped himself in both body measurements and speed/agility testing.
Projected as a late-first-round or second-round pick, Koloko rated second among centers in wingspan (7 feet, 5.25 inches) and tied for second in standing reach (9 feet, 5 inches). He was fourth among centers in height without shoes at 6-10.75.
Koloko also finished second in max (running) vertical leap (33.5 inches), tied for third in standing vertical leap (28.0 inches) and was second in three speed and agility tests – the shuttle run, three-quarter court sprint and lane agility drill..
Not to flog it, but that's why I always said he needed to go now. He has those sort of attributes that will show out through the process and that's why he absolutely gets a guaranteed deal. Any team will give him 2 years to figure it out and pay those skills off.
Kessler has upside, but the combine shows what I'd say the eye test does too. Koloko is top 5 among C's in every test of speed and explosiveness, as well as right there with Kessler in size and length.
Kessler (and even Mark Williams, interestingly) don't hit top 5 on the athleticism tests and Koloko is there every time. That's a huge point for Koloko's future, he isn't just a long rim protector...if he cleans his footwork up, he 's very mobile and athletic for his size.
That last part matters a ton in today's spread NBA.
Re: Koloko
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 2:01 pm
by AzCatFan2
Koloko is a freak athlete that is still coming into his body and learning what he can do. Kudos to both Sean Miller and Tommy Lloyd plus their respective staffs at helping to get Koloko to this level. I think everyone saw the potential when Koloko first stepped on campus, and just how raw he was. If Koloko can hit an open 3 as well, which he was never asked to do at Arizona, then it's difficult not to see him taken in the first round. Great rim protector, can finish on the break, and knock down an outside jumper too! Lots of teams are going to want a guy like that.
Re: Koloko
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 3:28 pm
by TheCat
If you are watching the playoffs htere are alot of teams that could use him. He is what GSW was hoping for when they got Wiseman.
Re: Koloko
Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 12:40 pm
by A1RZONA
YoDeFoe wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 11:31 am
Koloko to the Warriors at 28...
I always think Goodman's kind of a tool (some of that may be his affect) but he's dead on with CK. Great rim protector with good ability to handle switches and perimeter responsibility for his size. Limited role offensively, but that's ok, especially given how much development he's shown already and may still have to go.
I was thinking about this the other day. Miller put Koloko in a lot of hedge and recover and other perimeter actions in his scheme. There were rough times, like when Stanford used it against us to get Da Silva a ton of easy looks, but in the long term, it also helped Koloko a ton.
I'll go so far as to say Miller pushing Koloko outside of pure rim protection probably cost us the 20-21 Stanford road game. But it also got him to develop his abilities in space, which, as Goodman says, takes his defensive potential from pure rim protection to the sort of all around excellence.
Christian Koloko, 7-1 junior center, Arizona. “Ten years ago, he’s a lottery pick. He’s an unbelievable runner/athlete for a guy his size. He has a high center of gravity, so he’ll get pushed around a little bit. He doesn’t block as many shots when his own guy has the ball. He has average feel, but he’s a pretty good lob threat. His IQ has gotten better, but I worry about his skill level. He’s not a great rebounder. Doesn’t have a lot of pop off the ground, not a good second jumper. But a good shot blocker with good timing. Maybe he can stretch to 15 feet, but you’re never going to run your offense through him. Offensively, what do you do with him? Can he be JaVale McGee? He’s got to get grittier. How will he fight through adversity?”
So the Mock Draft says Oklahoma City will take 7 footer Koloko while also taking 7 footer Chet Holmgren number 2. Maybe, but I would doubt it.
Re: Koloko
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:26 am
by Longhorned
Maybe they'll trade Holmgren. When you're drafting #2, you have no choice. You have to take Holmgren. Then you can dangle him in a trade. If there's any player with a body you can dangle, it's Holmgren's.
Re: Koloko
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:31 am
by MountainCat
When all is said and done, I'd bet Koloko goes late 1st round. All it takes is for a team to steal someone else's pick early, then the plan is off the table. Someone will pull the trigger early.
Re: Koloko
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:26 am
by RaisingArizona
MountainCat wrote: ↑Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:31 am
When all is said and done, I'd bet Koloko goes late 1st round. All it takes is for a team to steal someone else's pick early, then the plan is off the table. Someone will pull the trigger early.
I think he'd be a great pick for Golden State.
Re: Koloko
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:14 pm
by RondaeShimmy
Toronto and Masai is a great organization to get drafted to
Re: Koloko
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:41 pm
by UAEebs86
Congrats CK. Wish he could have snuck into the first round.
One game into the 82-game schedule, it’s no longer a question of if rookie Christian Koloko will help the Raptors, but how much.
There aren’t too many second-rounders that immediately move into the rotation and while that move was greased by injuries to three players who will eventually eat into some of the available reserve minutes, Koloko is showing no signs of a guy willing to relinquish them.
Beyond that, the 7-foot-1, 230-pound Koloko is the only true centre on a team that admittedly struggled at times without that kind of length.
Pascal Siakam, who hails from the same village in Cameroon as Koloko, is understandably pulling for his countryman. But winning is always paramount with Siakam and he won’t let any national bias get in the way of what he feels is best for the team.
What the Raptors want from him — and what they’re getting from him without the kind of mistakes normally expected in a rookie — is an ability to not just hold his own within the Raptors’ defensive schemes, but make those schemes better when he’s out there. Part of it is because of that length but the other part is a nice mix of basketball IQ and a devotion to playing hard and playing physical that more than makes up for any lack of NBA experience.
“He’s not one of those bigs that can’t move, or things like that,” Siakam said. “So, he can move his feet and he understands the gameplan too. He doesn’t make a lot of mistakes. I mean, obviously he’s going to make mistakes, he’s a rookie. But he’s pretty smart and, yeah, he’s going to help us, I think.”
Re: Koloko
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 11:25 pm
by Merkin
UAdevil wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:37 pm
the 7-foot-1, 230-pound Koloko