Re: let's talk '17
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:51 pm
That's definitely a big question mark for every K coached team these days. The 2015 team had the same questions on defense until they turned it on late in the season. This team doesn't have a leader like Quinn Cook to lead those young guys though.Longhorned wrote:
I'll take Duke's starting 5, but our bench is so much better that it tends to even out.NYCat wrote:Jackson-Cartwright < Duval
Trier > Allen
Alkins >(?) Trent Jr
Ayton < Bagley
Ristic ? Carter
UA bench: Akot, Randolph, Lee, Barcello, Smith > (Akot, Randolph alone make it better)
Duke bench: Bolden, White, DeLaurier, O'Connell, Tucker
Really the only significant leg up Duke has is at the point, which happens to be the most important position. But Arizona has a better bench with Akot & Randolph.
If he sulks like he did last year then they are in trouble. Not much leadership on this Duke team.Main Event wrote:Duke begged Bolden to reconsider transferring to put him back on the bench for Bagley lol That should be funny
Duval is an amazing player, a League star in the future in my view.NYCat wrote:Jackson-Cartwright < Duval
Trier > Allen
Alkins >(?) Trent Jr
Ayton < Bagley
Ristic ? Carter
UA bench: Akot, Randolph, Lee, Barcello, Smith > (Akot, Randolph alone make it better)
Duke bench: Bolden, White, DeLaurier, O'Connell, Tucker
Really the only significant leg up Duke has is at the point, which happens to be the most important position. But Arizona has a better bench with Akot & Randolph.
https://mobile.twitter.com/DraftExpress ... 5800521728What spacing concerns? Bagley/Carter/Bolden shot 28/119 (23%) combined for 3 last year. Their PG Trevon Duval is a career 17% 3point shooter
Eh can't say I agree on the second part. I think he's certainly a NBA player, but I don't think point guards who can't shoot are destined for stardom.EOCT wrote:Duval is an amazing player, a League star in the future in my view.NYCat wrote:Jackson-Cartwright < Duval
Trier > Allen
Alkins >(?) Trent Jr
Ayton < Bagley
Ristic ? Carter
UA bench: Akot, Randolph, Lee, Barcello, Smith > (Akot, Randolph alone make it better)
Duke bench: Bolden, White, DeLaurier, O'Connell, Tucker
Really the only significant leg up Duke has is at the point, which happens to be the most important position. But Arizona has a better bench with Akot & Randolph.
But you said...Beachcat97 wrote:Again, it won't be Duke. Why would he wait until 11 eastern to commit to an east coast school? Makes no sense.NYCat wrote:Please be Duke, I don't advocate to make any rivals stronger. We all hate Duke, but they're not rivals or inter conference rivals either.
Totally. I was surprised.NYCat wrote:But you said...Beachcat97 wrote:Again, it won't be Duke. Why would he wait until 11 eastern to commit to an east coast school? Makes no sense.NYCat wrote:Please be Duke, I don't advocate to make any rivals stronger. We all hate Duke, but they're not rivals or inter conference rivals either.
Bolden is the next Jeter.RaisingArizona wrote:Bolden's not going to get all that much run IMO. I think the starting five will be Duval, Allen, Trent Jr., Bagley and Carter. Definitely the most talented team in the country on paper. Whether they will be better than Arizona or Michigan State remains to be seen.
I mean if Bolden stays (I'd be fucking furious about this Bagley situation if I were him as Duke begged him to stay when he wanted to leave) he's still in for plenty of PT off the bench as the first big off the bench. Will be interesting to see if he sticks it out this year or tells Coach K to go fly a kite.RaisingArizona wrote:Bolden's not going to get all that much run IMO. I think the starting five will be Duval, Allen, Trent Jr., Bagley and Carter. Definitely the most talented team in the country on paper. Whether they will be better than Arizona or Michigan State remains to be seen.
But that's the point. All you ever do is make statements presented as fact as though you have any clue about anything, which everyone knows you don't. This one is a shining example. He is NOT going to Duke!Beachcat97 wrote:Totally. I was surprised.NYCat wrote:But you said...Beachcat97 wrote:Again, it won't be Duke. Why would he wait until 11 eastern to commit to an east coast school? Makes no sense.NYCat wrote:Please be Duke, I don't advocate to make any rivals stronger. We all hate Duke, but they're not rivals or inter conference rivals either.
K has been pretty straightforward in recruiting over people. Giles over Jeter. Bagley over Bolden. Allen and Winslow over Matt Jones. It's a new day.RaisingArizona wrote:I agree. He should be pissed. I suppose it depends on how much time Bagley sees at the three. If both he and Carter are exclusively 4/5s, how much time can Bolden really see? 15 minutes per game? That can't be palatable to a top 15 kid from a loaded class in year two.
Chance Comanche got 18 minutes per game last year backing up solely the 5 spot. Certainly not what Bolden was probably expecting going into the year though that's for sure. Duke's bench is far from deep so I could easily see him getting more than Chance though in the Bagley playing the 3 scenario. Either way yeah Bolden got screwed.RaisingArizona wrote:I agree. He should be pissed. I suppose it depends on how much time Bagley sees at the three. If both he and Carter are exclusively 4/5s, how much time can Bolden really see? 15 minutes per game? That can't be palatable to a top 15 kid from a loaded class in year two.
Why in the world would Bagley play the three for Duke at any point? To make room for Bolden to play along with him and Carter? So they can send shooters like Gary Trent Jr or Grayson Allen to the bench for a bunch of non-shooting bigs? The three is the one spot that Duke had depth at with Trent Jr., Allen, Tucker, and White. If Bagley gets 5min/g at the three spot I'll be stunned.ChooChooCat wrote:Chance Comanche got 18 minutes per game last year backing up solely the 5 spot. Certainly not what Bolden was probably expecting going into the year though that's for sure. Duke's bench is far from deep so I could easily see him getting more than Chance though in the Bagley playing the 3 scenario. Either way yeah Bolden got screwed.RaisingArizona wrote:I agree. He should be pissed. I suppose it depends on how much time Bagley sees at the three. If both he and Carter are exclusively 4/5s, how much time can Bolden really see? 15 minutes per game? That can't be palatable to a top 15 kid from a loaded class in year two.
Because Bagley can play any position on the court. Allen probably is your back up PG, unless you're convinced that kid whose second best offer was Eastern Kentucky is the best option at backup PG, so in all actuality Allen will have to slide over to play the 1, which means every one slides down a position. Also are you really expecting Jack White to get minutes on this team? Seriously? You could've at least said Connelly and then I'd consider buying it.YoDeFoe wrote:Why in the world would Bagley play the three for Duke at any point? To make room for Bolden to play along with him and Carter? So they can send shooters like Gary Trent Jr or Grayson Allen to the bench for a bunch of non-shooting bigs? The three is the one spot that Duke had depth at with Trent Jr., Allen, Tucker, and White. If Bagley gets 5min/g at the three spot I'll be stunned.ChooChooCat wrote:Chance Comanche got 18 minutes per game last year backing up solely the 5 spot. Certainly not what Bolden was probably expecting going into the year though that's for sure. Duke's bench is far from deep so I could easily see him getting more than Chance though in the Bagley playing the 3 scenario. Either way yeah Bolden got screwed.RaisingArizona wrote:I agree. He should be pissed. I suppose it depends on how much time Bagley sees at the three. If both he and Carter are exclusively 4/5s, how much time can Bolden really see? 15 minutes per game? That can't be palatable to a top 15 kid from a loaded class in year two.
Bagley likes the perimeter and showing diversity of skill. I wouldn't be shocked if Duke bows to that desire, at least letting him play outside/in a decent amount.YoDeFoe wrote:Why in the world would Bagley play the three for Duke at any point? To make room for Bolden to play along with him and Carter? So they can send shooters like Gary Trent Jr or Grayson Allen to the bench for a bunch of non-shooting bigs? The three is the one spot that Duke had depth at with Trent Jr., Allen, Tucker, and White. If Bagley gets 5min/g at the three spot I'll be stunned.ChooChooCat wrote:Chance Comanche got 18 minutes per game last year backing up solely the 5 spot. Certainly not what Bolden was probably expecting going into the year though that's for sure. Duke's bench is far from deep so I could easily see him getting more than Chance though in the Bagley playing the 3 scenario. Either way yeah Bolden got screwed.RaisingArizona wrote:I agree. He should be pissed. I suppose it depends on how much time Bagley sees at the three. If both he and Carter are exclusively 4/5s, how much time can Bolden really see? 15 minutes per game? That can't be palatable to a top 15 kid from a loaded class in year two.
I'm not convinced that putting Bagley on the perimeter is the best use of his time. He's far from Lauri with the three point shot and defensively I'd bet on his rim protecting ability over his lateral quickness to stay in front of wings and avoid picking up blocking fouls.ChooChooCat wrote:Because Bagley can play any position on the court. Allen probably is your back up PG, unless you're convinced that kid whose second best offer was Eastern Kentucky is the best option at backup PG, so in all actuality Allen will have to slide over to play the 1, which means every one slides down a position. Also are you really expecting Jack White to get minutes on this team? Seriously? You could've at least said Connelly and then I'd consider buying it.YoDeFoe wrote:Why in the world would Bagley play the three for Duke at any point? To make room for Bolden to play along with him and Carter? So they can send shooters like Gary Trent Jr or Grayson Allen to the bench for a bunch of non-shooting bigs? The three is the one spot that Duke has depth at with Trent Jr., Allen, Tucker, and White. If Bagley gets 5min/g at the three spot I'll be stunned.
I'd be willing to put some cash on the Bagley playing 5 min/g at the 3 if you want. The bet goes null and void if Bolden does transfer though.
Maybe they cave to his desires, sure. I suppose I'm thinking of the best basketball decision and not the best decision in the vein of "give your recruit a retired number and help him skip a year of high school to attend one of the most academically challenging universities in the world, because LOL basketball."Spaceman Spiff wrote:Bagley likes the perimeter and showing diversity of skill. I wouldn't be shocked if Duke bows to that desire, at least letting him play outside/in a decent amount.
It's similar to Miller and Ayton. Ayton clearly sees himself as a perimeter threat, even though Miller will likely encourage him to be inside more. Those sort of debates are common with big time recruits. We started AG at the 3 until Ashley went down despite AG not being a stellar shooter.
I agree with a lot of what you said, but in regards to Tatum and Ingram both are terrible examples being that based on the weakness of their teams they had no choice, but to play the 4 for so many minutes. I mean in Ingram's sole year Amile Jefferson played only 9 games and the only other post players remotely capable were Chase Jeter and the 12th Plumlee brother who neither resembled a 4 man. In Tatum's sole year you had Amile Jefferson and a mix and match of a hobbled Harry Giles, a hobbled Chase Jeter, a hobbled Marques Bolden, and Delaurier. Add to the fact that Kennard & Allen were so important to the team that they couldn't be benched much at all and they had to play alongside some form of point guard it just made the most sense for Tatum to play so heavily.YoDeFoe wrote:I'm not convinced that putting Bagley on the perimeter is the best use of his time. He's far from Lauri with the three point shot and defensively I'd bet on his rim protecting ability over his lateral quickness to stay in front of wings and avoid picking up blocking fouls.ChooChooCat wrote:Because Bagley can play any position on the court. Allen probably is your back up PG, unless you're convinced that kid whose second best offer was Eastern Kentucky is the best option at backup PG, so in all actuality Allen will have to slide over to play the 1, which means every one slides down a position. Also are you really expecting Jack White to get minutes on this team? Seriously? You could've at least said Connelly and then I'd consider buying it.YoDeFoe wrote:Why in the world would Bagley play the three for Duke at any point? To make room for Bolden to play along with him and Carter? So they can send shooters like Gary Trent Jr or Grayson Allen to the bench for a bunch of non-shooting bigs? The three is the one spot that Duke has depth at with Trent Jr., Allen, Tucker, and White. If Bagley gets 5min/g at the three spot I'll be stunned.
I'd be willing to put some cash on the Bagley playing 5 min/g at the 3 if you want. The bet goes null and void if Bolden does transfer though.
Jayson Tatum played less than 5min/g at the three as a more traditional combo forward. Brandon Ingram played no minutes at the three as a far better three point shooter. And Bagley's best offensive skills - going to work on the block and playing off of the pick and roll - would be negated by two traditional bigs hanging out in the paint or moving to the wings and allowing Arizona defenders to sag into the paint (as Duke doesn't have a big man with a reliable outside shot).
I'm equally confident that Bagley does not get real minutes at the three with the roster as it stands today. We'll call it a gentleman's bet.
Good points on the make-up of those Duke teams.ChooChooCat wrote:I agree with a lot of what you said, but in regards to Tatum and Ingram both are terrible examples being that based on the weakness of their teams they had no choice, but to play the 4 for so many minutes. I mean in Ingram's sole year Amile Jefferson played only 9 games and the only other post players remotely capable were Chase Jeter and the 12th Plumlee brother who neither resembled a 4 man. In Tatum's sole year you had Amile Jefferson and a mix and match of a hobbled Harry Giles, a hobbled Chase Jeter, a hobbled Marques Bolden, and Delaurier. Add to the fact that Kennard & Allen were so important to the team that they couldn't be benched much at all and they had to play alongside some form of point guard it just made the most sense for Tatum to play so heavily.
Of course my take is only plausible with the possibility that Duke finally has a healthy frontcourt and that both Bolden and Delaurier live up to their rankings and can contribute effectively. If either go by the wayside via injury, transfer, or inability then I completely agree with you that Bagley won't scratch the 5 min/g at the 3 spot. If the Eastern Kentucky offer kid turns out to be a competent backup PG then my argument is null and void as well, but I don't see it.
Hell the more we discuss this the more I'm backing out, because I just don't know if Delaurier does contribute at all.
Duke certainly has had some crappy luck with their frontcourt both in evaluating talent, developing it, and keeping their guys healthy.
Maybe it's harsh, but I think K is winning by any means necessary now. The run of early losses in the late 2000 decade changed his philosophy markedly.YoDeFoe wrote:Maybe they cave to his desires, sure. I suppose I'm thinking of the best basketball decision and not the best decision in the vein of "give your recruit a retired number and help him skip a year of high school to attend one of the most academically challenging universities in the world, because LOL basketball."Spaceman Spiff wrote:Bagley likes the perimeter and showing diversity of skill. I wouldn't be shocked if Duke bows to that desire, at least letting him play outside/in a decent amount.
It's similar to Miller and Ayton. Ayton clearly sees himself as a perimeter threat, even though Miller will likely encourage him to be inside more. Those sort of debates are common with big time recruits. We started AG at the 3 until Ashley went down despite AG not being a stellar shooter.
Re: Gordon... We had TJ, Nick, Zeus all starting, then we had Ashley (So), Gordon (Fr), RHJ (Fr), and Gabe (So). Who would you have played in those last two spots? Gordon at the three crowded out... who? A less offensively talented Rondae and a defensive liability in York (that would have required Nick to play out of position at the three). It's not the same question that Duke is facing with a clear hole in the post and a bevy of talented wings.
I felt the same about Lute post-2005Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Maybe it's harsh, but I think K is winning by any means necessary now. The run of early losses in the late 2000 decade changed his philosophy markedly.
K has 2 titles since the late 2000s, worked out for him. Bunch of early losses but has titles and final foursEVCat wrote:I felt the same about Lute post-2005Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Maybe it's harsh, but I think K is winning by any means necessary now. The run of early losses in the late 2000 decade changed his philosophy markedly.
yes.NYCat wrote:K has 2 titles since the late 2000s, worked out for him. Bunch of early losses but has titles and final foursEVCat wrote:I felt the same about Lute post-2005Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Maybe it's harsh, but I think K is winning by any means necessary now. The run of early losses in the late 2000 decade changed his philosophy markedly.
I love Lute, but after the Illinois loss, it seemed apparent that he didn't have the same control over the direction of the program. My analogy would be Mack Brown at the end of his run at Texas. Part of it was probably health, but he just didn't set the tone Arizona used to have. Details got outsourced and the program decayed.EVCat wrote:I felt the same about Lute post-2005Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Maybe it's harsh, but I think K is winning by any means necessary now. The run of early losses in the late 2000 decade changed his philosophy markedly.
Yes, and there was a lot of push-back against this belief as it was happening. Some of my least favorite teams. Not just because of record, but because of attitude, desire and general erosion of team work.Spaceman Spiff wrote:I love Lute, but after the Illinois loss, it seemed apparent that he didn't have the same control over the direction of the program. My analogy would be Mack Brown at the end of his run at Texas. Part of it was probably health, but he just didn't set the tone Arizona used to have. Details got outsourced and the program decayed.EVCat wrote:I felt the same about Lute post-2005Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Maybe it's harsh, but I think K is winning by any means necessary now. The run of early losses in the late 2000 decade changed his philosophy markedly.
Pastner made a lot of calls on who to recruit/prioritize post 2005. In general the assistants were given free reign on this front, which obviously led to catastrophe.Spaceman Spiff wrote:I love Lute, but after the Illinois loss, it seemed apparent that he didn't have the same control over the direction of the program. My analogy would be Mack Brown at the end of his run at Texas. Part of it was probably health, but he just didn't set the tone Arizona used to have. Details got outsourced and the program decayed.EVCat wrote:I felt the same about Lute post-2005Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Maybe it's harsh, but I think K is winning by any means necessary now. The run of early losses in the late 2000 decade changed his philosophy markedly.
My friend worked for the host school at the 2007 New Orleans NCAA site when we lost to Purdue in the first round. After, he told me that Arizona was easily the least organized, least disciplined and most arrogant team there.gumby wrote:Yes, and there was a lot of push-back against this belief as it was happening. Some of my least favorite teams. Not just because of record, but because of attitude, desire and general erosion of team work.Spaceman Spiff wrote:I love Lute, but after the Illinois loss, it seemed apparent that he didn't have the same control over the direction of the program. My analogy would be Mack Brown at the end of his run at Texas. Part of it was probably health, but he just didn't set the tone Arizona used to have. Details got outsourced and the program decayed.EVCat wrote:I felt the same about Lute post-2005Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Maybe it's harsh, but I think K is winning by any means necessary now. The run of early losses in the late 2000 decade changed his philosophy markedly.
Granted, easier to see in retrospect. I mark the decline as 2004, with 2005 being the outlier season. Even that year, we got outworked by UW and then had a nice tourney run (thanks to Salim's heroics against Okla. St).
Previous year had: Iggy, Adams, Frye, Salim. Loads of talent. Bad chemistry. Opposite of 2003.
Fear not! "The Three Kings" were on the way! Onobun, Prince, Williams.
Bleh.
Fear not! Nic Wise has signed on as a high school freshman!
OK, I'll stop.
That's the team that ended every pre-season practice by standing in a circle with their hands in the center and shouting, "Atlanta!" Which was the site of the Final Four. Joe Lunardi predicted they'd be out-toughed by Purdue, and he nailed that one. One for fifty!Spaceman Spiff wrote:My friend worked for the host school at the 2007 New Orleans NCAA site when we lost to Purdue in the first round. After, he told me that Arizona was easily the least organized, least disciplined and most arrogant team there.gumby wrote:Yes, and there was a lot of push-back against this belief as it was happening. Some of my least favorite teams. Not just because of record, but because of attitude, desire and general erosion of team work.Spaceman Spiff wrote:I love Lute, but after the Illinois loss, it seemed apparent that he didn't have the same control over the direction of the program. My analogy would be Mack Brown at the end of his run at Texas. Part of it was probably health, but he just didn't set the tone Arizona used to have. Details got outsourced and the program decayed.EVCat wrote:I felt the same about Lute post-2005Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Maybe it's harsh, but I think K is winning by any means necessary now. The run of early losses in the late 2000 decade changed his philosophy markedly.
Granted, easier to see in retrospect. I mark the decline as 2004, with 2005 being the outlier season. Even that year, we got outworked by UW and then had a nice tourney run (thanks to Salim's heroics against Okla. St).
Previous year had: Iggy, Adams, Frye, Salim. Loads of talent. Bad chemistry. Opposite of 2003.
Fear not! "The Three Kings" were on the way! Onobun, Prince, Williams.
Bleh.
Fear not! Nic Wise has signed on as a high school freshman!
OK, I'll stop.
It never fell; it just stumbled and regrouped. Miller was obviously the right choice to re-establish the program as #1 in the west.Spaceman Spiff wrote: I view that period as the fall of the Arizona Empire. But then Sean Miller happened.
Well, it's still better than ASU's "NIT" break.Longhorned wrote: That's the team that ended every pre-season practice by standing in a circle with their hands in the center and shouting, "Atlanta!" Which was the site of the Final Four. Joe Lunardi predicted they'd be out-toughed by Purdue, and he nailed that one. One for fifty!
Randolph at 52 is going to look incredibly foolish in a few months..Jefe wrote:Final Top 150
https://n.rivals.com/prospect_rankings/rivals150/2017" target="_blank
http://247sports.com/Season/2017-Basket ... HighSchool" target="_blank
Rivals on the left. 247 on the right
4 Ayton 4
26 Akot 21
52 Randolph 38
60 Lee 58
118 Barcello 80