Bribery Scandal - FBI Probe - Book Richardson Involved

[CatFanOneMil]

Fallout already coming...uggghhh....

http://www.zagsblog.com/2017/10/03/simi ... ilt-first/" target="_blank

Simi Shittu cancels Az visit...

[Statfreak77]

Fallout already coming...uggghhh....

http://www.zagsblog.com/2017/10/03/simi ... ilt-first/" target="_blank

Simi Shittu cancels Az visit...

So be it. Expect these type of things for awhile.

Hopefully these guys that Arizona has been involved with do not sign their LOI next month, leaving the possibility open of them signing late.

[Russ Smith]

I don't get what point Russ Smith is trying to make. The link from the SC board discusses the validity of the criminal charges in comparison to statute.

Even if Book is acquitted in the criminal case, he's gone from Arizona basketball. Whether he's found guilty of what he's charged with won't change his future or the extent to which the issues the NCAA would be concerned with (paying players, Miller's knowledge) are proveable.

Arizona can't be guilty. Book Richardson can be guilty. People here arguing that we should not get program crippling sanctions are not grounding it interpretation of federal statutes.

The point I'm arguing is the people saying Book was a rogue coach and UA is a victim and even the FBI said so, are simply jumping on the wrong part of the case. Again the reason they are saying that Book defrauded his employer is not that they think Arizona is a victim here, it's because that allows them to use this statute, USC 666 to charge Book with federal crimes. Doing that then allows them to try and get Book to talk and give up more names and more information which is how the FBI works. This case started with one guy talking and bringing in more guys.

I don't think Miller was doing what Book did, and I don't think Miller is completely unaware that rules were being broken in recruiting kids. I don't think he gets fired unless more comes out, I do think he'll get at least reprimanded by the NCAA here, I don't think the NCAA is going to buy that he's a victim of a rogue coach.

You're arguing against a fake opponent. No one is making those points.

The validity of the statute and victim status are entirely creations of federal statutes, and I don't see anyone saying NCAA sanctions are dependent on federal statutory law. You're offering a meh rebuttal to a claim no one's making.

Valid or invalid, the US Code is not NCAA rules and vice versa. It's simple.

my very first post here was in response to a post saying precisely that, we're the victims here, it's a rogue coach.

Not 10 posts above yours here someone refers to this as 3 schools being "caught hard" and then UA sort of being caught.

If I were going to rank the schools in terms of who got caught with the most, ARizona is 2nd behind only Louisville because Pitino is coach #2. Arizona has 2 players on teh current roster who were being steered, has a recruit who was paid, has a current player who was paid, and has 1 assistant coach who took bribes and another one who openly said he was willing to do so once the season ended. None of the other schools has that many parties involved.

[CalStateTempe]

Well fuck...

[Spaceman Spiff]

Fallout already coming...uggghhh....

http://www.zagsblog.com/2017/10/03/simi ... ilt-first/" target="_blank

Simi Shittu cancels Az visit...

So be it. Expect these type of things for awhile.

Hopefully these guys that Arizona has been involved with do not sign their LOI next month, leaving the possibility open of them signing late.

I wouldn't say the sky is falling. We will take a hit, but so much depends on where the investigation goes from here.

[Statfreak77]

Fallout already coming...uggghhh....

http://www.zagsblog.com/2017/10/03/simi ... ilt-first/" target="_blank

Simi Shittu cancels Az visit...

So be it. Expect these type of things for awhile.

Hopefully these guys that Arizona has been involved with do not sign their LOI next month, leaving the possibility open of them signing late.

I wouldn't say the sky is falling. We will take a hit, but so much depends on where the investigation goes from here.

Well if you listen to Russ Smith, Arizona basketball won't exist after this.

[NYCat]

Could still rebound in spring, hopefully things are clear(er) by then. But now things are looking rough next year, only have 4-6 players on the roster.

Anyway, any major high prospect who signs in fall is an idiot, so let's just wait. Only Little has eliminated us (we weren't going to land Barrett).

[CatHoops]

Anyone think we self sanction with a post season ban?

[NYCat]

Anyone think we self sanction with a post season ban?

This year? Hope not. Let the NCAA take away this season if they find something in a couple years. Hopefully we have a f4 or Natty for the NCAA to take away tbh.

Then again it depends what the internal investigation finds.

[Hank of sb]

Anyone think we self sanction with a post season ban?

You will be met with disbelief for making such an inquiry.

As those thoughts are not even allowed in some places, keeping them to yourself will serve you better.

[Statfreak77]

Could still rebound in spring, hopefully things are clear(er) by then. But now things are looking rough next year, only have 4-6 players on the roster.

Anyway, any major high prospect who signs in fall is an idiot, so let's just wait. Only Little has eliminated us (we weren't going to land Barrett).

Has Little actually eliminated Arizona?

He has just stated that he is re-opening his recruitment, whatever that means, considering he was never committed in the first place.

[NYCat]

Hasn't officially eliminated Arizona, but hard to see how he does wind up here. It'll look bad for everyone, at least Quinerly was already committed. Think Quinerly plays here if he's granted eligibility.

[prh]

Anyone think we self sanction with a post season ban?

You will be met with disbelief for making such an inquiry.

As those thoughts are not even allowed in some places, keeping them to yourself will serve you better.

That's probably because self sanctioning a post season ban is the silliest idea possible. What good does that accomplish? So we don't vacate a national title? We'd all much rather win and vacate than not play. Don't say we avoid a multi year post season ban because that's never going to happen anyways. Self sanctioning has proven to not work, so I don't know why you keep peddling it. Also, there's a big difference between someone asking about it and someone continually pushing for it.

Cathoops, it's a fair question but we won't. Only a couple people think it's a good idea.

[NYCat]

Win and vacate is our new motto

[Spaceman Spiff]

Anyone think we self sanction with a post season ban?

We have far too little information to really judge, IMO. Right now, if there is nothing beyond the FBI, I would think we might only look at scholarship loss and probation.

Whether there's more beyond the FBI is the looming question, and I don't think any of us know.

[CatHoops]

I think it has to be proven the player was aware of the payments. As of now it only says his mom so unless that changes quin should be eligible.

[Beachcat97]

Anyone seen this yet?

http://uschoops.com/vbulletin/forum/mai ... stigations" target="_blank

[Spaceman Spiff]

I think it has to be proven the player was aware of the payments. As of now it only says his mom so unless that changes quin should be eligible.

Right now there's no confirmation on the payment. Book asked for 15k to give to Quinerly, but the real thing is proof relative to the money going to Quinerly.

Book taking the $ is half the equation, but not what really matters NCAA wise. The back end, where the $ is confirmed to go to Quinerly is the big thing.

I doubt mom/Quinerly matters for Arizona, but may matter for Quinerly. Quinerly could retain eligibilty if $ went to mom, but Arizona can't be offering it to either.

[MrBug708]

Anyone seen this yet?

http://uschoops.com/vbulletin/forum/mai ... stigations" target="_blank

Further proof that RC97 doesn't actually read a single thing on these boards. Just waiting on his revelation that Book was arrested by the FBI

[NYCat]

I think it has to be proven the player was aware of the payments. As of now it only says his mom so unless that changes quin should be eligible.

Right now there's no confirmation on the payment. Book asked for 15k to give to Quinerly, but the real thing is proof relative to the money going to Quinerly.

Book taking the $ is half the equation, but not what really matters NCAA wise. The back end, where the $ is confirmed to go to Quinerly is the big thing.

I doubt mom/Quinerly matters for Arizona, but may matter for Quinerly. Quinerly could retain eligibilty if $ went to mom, but Arizona can't be offering it to either.

If I was Arizona I'd argue that book pocketed the money

[Statfreak77]

Anyone seen this yet?

http://uschoops.com/vbulletin/forum/mai ... stigations" target="_blank

That looks like a whole lot of reading and mind numbing information. Care to give us a summary of the key parts, specifically to Arizona?

[RiseAndFire]

My last post didn't go over well with the Miller-fans. But I have a new theory for you that you'll love that completely exonerates us from any penalty:

What if Miller wasn't even aware that Book was still on his coaching staff!! The same thing happened with Damon Stoudamire. You'd see him on the bench there at the games, but did Miller know? Same thing with Book

Plausible deniability - BOOM!

(However I do prefer the theory that the FBI tipped off Miller and asked him to go deep undercover with the code name "Johnny Arizona", and a big mustache and wig disguise, to figure out which one of his assistants was on the take.)

Either way we have lots of outs here and in no way is the UA under any kind of dark cloud. Smooth sailing baby! 5-star recruits come on down.

Ok, im getting back in my trench with my trusty M-16, ready to take down any charlie that comes for Miller. See you later - Ooh Rah!

[Russ Smith]

Fallout already coming...uggghhh....

http://www.zagsblog.com/2017/10/03/simi ... ilt-first/" target="_blank

Simi Shittu cancels Az visit...

So be it. Expect these type of things for awhile.

Hopefully these guys that Arizona has been involved with do not sign their LOI next month, leaving the possibility open of them signing late.

I wouldn't say the sky is falling. We will take a hit, but so much depends on where the investigation goes from here.

Well if you listen to Russ Smith, Arizona basketball won't exist after this.

Exactly. That's why I keep saying Miller won't get fired and I think he'll get an NCAA reprimand. Exactly why I keep predicting the death penalty for UA, wait that's not me either.

All i've said is the people who keep trying to act like Arizona is minimially involved and a victim here, are deluding themselves.

[CatHoops]

No way they get death penalty. The Michigan case in 2003 included 700k directly to three players on the roster.so far az isn't in that territory.

[dmjcat]

Anyone think we self sanction with a post season ban?

Very, very possible.

In fact, self sanctioning and taking the hit now may very well be the smart move. The best (realistic) outcome for the UA is to take the punishment immediately and get it out of the way. The uncertainty will only drive recruits away (its already happening). If we self sanction and are lucky, the NCAA might agree with the punishment and all we lose is the 2018 tournament and probably a scholarship or two for a couple of years. The uncertainty might clear up before the end of the season and the damage to future recruiting classes would be minimized.

If we wait for the NCAA to sanction us, and play in the 2018 tournament, we might end up with a multi-year ban on postseason play. In that event recruiting would be destroyed for 2018, 2019 and 2020. We might not recover until the middle of the next decade. Taking the hit now and minimizing the damage to recruiting may very well be the smart route.

[CalStateTempe]

My last post didn't go over well with the Miller-fans. But I have a new theory for you that you'll love that completely exonerates us from any penalty:

What if Miller wasn't even aware that Book was still on his coaching staff!! The same thing happened with Damon Stoudamire. You'd see him on the bench there at the games, but did Miller know? Same thing with Book

Plausible deniability - BOOM!

(However I do prefer the theory that the FBI tipped off Miller and asked him to go deep undercover with the code name "Johnny Arizona", and a big mustache and wig disguise, to figure out which one of his assistants was on the take.)

Either way we have lots of outs here and in no way is the UA under any kind of dark cloud. Smooth sailing baby! 5-star recruits come on down.

Ok, im getting back in my trench with my trusty M-16, ready to take down any charlie that comes for Miller. See you later - Ooh Rah!

Ban time. I vote for a poll.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Anyone think we self sanction with a post season ban?

Very, very possible.

In fact, self sanctioning and taking the hit now may very well be the smart move. The best (realistic) outcome for the UA is to take the punishment immediately and get it out of the way. The uncertainty will only drive recruits away (its already happening). If we self sanction and are lucky, the NCAA might agree with the punishment and all we lose is the 2018 tournament and probably a scholarship or two for a couple of years. The uncertainty might clear up before the end of the season and the damage to future recruiting classes would be minimized.

If we wait for the NCAA to sanction us, and play in the 2018 tournament, we might end up with a multi-year ban on postseason play. In that event recruiting would be destroyed for 2018, 2019 and 2020. We might not recover until the middle of the next decade. Taking the hit now and minimizing the damage to recruiting may very well be the smart route.

I've previously posted about how bad I think this idea is. The NCAA will add to self sanctions. The important part is not timing, but whether any self-imposed sanctions wind up being something appropriate for violations.

You don't earn any brownie points by self imposing too light a penalty. You harm yourself by self imposing too harsh a penalty. You do something good by self imposing a correct penalty.

[CalStateTempe]

Better to ask for forgiveness than permission

Win and vacate

[gumby]

If schools and coaches can't make lucrative apparel deals, how can there be pressure or influence?

You're already putting a lot of faith in this and at the end of it all if it's set up the right way you may end up being right. Forgive me, though, if it sounds eerily similar to someone 25 years ago saying "What do you mean they're paying players to go certain schools?" or "What do you mean they forged his transcripts to make him eligible?" When big dollars are involved it would seem there's always pressure and influence.

Again, this all makes it a professional venture right out of high school. So why not just eliminate the middle man for the small percentage of athletes to which this really applies? Believe me, I'm all for the free market and if you can go out and make some bucks on the up-and-up, then crack a nut. Still, make the case for me that this should be done via institutions of higher learning most of which already have myriad financial issues of their own to overcome.

I'm probably misunderstanding what you wrote, but the only way big dollars won't be involved is if the students, alumni, and the public stop following the sport. One good way to ensure that happening is the elimination of players good enough to be future pros.

As you know and seem to support, any college student can make as much money outside the university as anybody wants to pay them. Like Chicat said, some future pro's have good reasons for wanting to go the college route. It seems strange that we should have rules to prevent them from having outside sources of income while they pursue that.

You point out a potential conflict: What if a shoe company's investment in a player runs up against a situation where he sees less playing time? This opens the head coach to the risk of bribery by the shoe company. But this danger is found everywhere in the world, and institutions have to put in place incentives to prevent it. For example, the institution and shoe company can require that players are paid in accordance with floor minutes. I don't know whether that's a good solution, but somebody smarter than me can and will have better ideas that keep rather than close the options available for players and programs.

No, you pretty well have it although I'll confess I've been all over the place with my posts this past week. As have many of us, I'm sure. I'm not advocating the disbanding of college basketball. Not at all. I love the game. As a kid, I'd scribble down the brackets as they were announced by Brent Musburger on CBS and then make my own bracket poster for the wall in my room. I still have a few socked away I think. I grew up with Lute Olson both at Iowa and at Arizona because my folks are Hawkeye alums. Got hooked on Ronnie Lester and the amazing 1980 run. Cried like a baby when UNLV made that ridiculous comeback to keep Iowa from the Final Four in 1987 just like many of you may have when Hunt made the 3-pointer over Lofton in 1989.

But, I'm not an NBA fan at all and have no interest in watching a pro or semi-pro league emerge in the collegiate ranks. I fully realize that's basically what we have now. Enjoyed watching Lakers/Celtics and then the Bulls dynasty (the first 3-peat more so than the latter) as a kid/college student, but lost interest in it after the mid-90's because of the constant migration of players, the way the game has been played (tons of iso, one-on-one, etc.) and all the attendant things that make it a pro sport and not amateur. To be fair, I've thoroughly enjoyed what Kerr and the Warriors have brought to the league and am glad other teams have tried to follow suit with their style of play but it's something I'll never really pay great attention to until it's deep into the playoffs.

Similarly, the experiences at Arizona Stadium and McKale Center have become more in line with what you'd see in the NFL and NBA stadiums and arenas - though done in a 2nd class manner to be blunt, and at the expense of some wonderful tradition and pageantry and the loss of some real love affairs with the kids on the team. My wife - born and raised Tucsonan and UofA lifer - has nearly zero interest in following Arizona Basketball anymore because she can't keep track of who's on the damn roster year to year. I'll admit my passion for it has really waned in the last decade, partially because we're neck deep in what our kids are doing and all that goes with that, but also for many of those same reasons. I never thought I'd see the day when we wouldn't be season football and basketball ticket holders, but here we are.

There's no investment to be made from my perspective. Many of these kids are here 5-6 months and then are gone. So much of the conversation about our players doesn't surround what they're actually doing here. It's all about the latest mock draft and how they project in the NBA game. And for many, that's all perfectly OK and many enjoy that aspect of it. I don't. Many players don't like the PT they get and want to move on to another school. I don't blame them at all. I blame the way the game is currently rigged. It's sad when stories like those of T.J. McConnell are the exception rather than the rule. Senior Days with one player honored - ONE - like this past season. Andre Iguodala has had an incredible career in the NBA and has become a fine ambassador for the UofA but folks conveniently forget how dysfunctional the team became his last season here and some would argue part of it was due to him going into full-on NBA audition mode. Similar conversations have happened regarding Trier and other past Wildcats trying to boost their own stock at the expense of the team. I can live without it.

I realize the era I describe is long gone so maybe my hope is that things are so corrupt the only option is a massive reset that will allow these wonderful players to go pro straight from high school and get to work on doing what they really want to do. That the AAU circuit is blown up to the point that high school sports reap the benefits and high school basketball in particular becomes relevant again. That those who aren't ready can go to great schools and programs and develop while getting a good education and one that is meaningful -- meaning the kids value it. That the schools, students, and community can embrace these players much more as their own. In the event that reset happens, you're far more likely to get more players here who really want to be HERE - for the campus, the climate, the chicks, the tradition, the fan support, the great coach, and some great academics that will help them in the likely event that they fall short of the NBA.

For me, there's no getting around the artificial nature of it if the players are paid to be in Tucson. I know many folks don't have a choice when they go to college if they can afford to go at all, but I was fairly lucky and could have gone a number of places. I chose Arizona for all the reasons many of you did. That name on the uniform has lost some meaning for me -- even before this past week's events. That's been a tough realization that's been magnified after what came to light last Tuesday.

So, that's where I'm coming from...whether it makes any sense or not I'll leave to you all.

Thanks for this, Pop.

[ChooChooCat]

Postseason ban starting next season. You play every one and win as much as you can this season, no fucks given if vacated later.

[CatHoops]

I hope so... would really suck for guys like zo and the upper class to get screwed out on that opportunity for a final 4. When they had no involvement

[Russ Smith]

I think it has to be proven the player was aware of the payments. As of now it only says his mom so unless that changes quin should be eligible.

It actually specifically says that Book had been "taking care of "QUinerly already but then the mom asked for money too.So they clearly believe he got paid, his mom didn't know, and then the mom asked for money which is the 15K book asked for. did any or all of that go to the mom who knows, but Quinerly can't argue he didn't know the mom asked for money if he was already getting paid himself.

Also a big part of the whole case is that the FBI is saying because of the actions of guys like Book, the agents, the advisers etc, they defrauded the schools into signing INELIGIBLE players, which violates their employment contracts and since they did this intentionally they acted corruptly and violated federal laws.The FBI is saying right there these players are ineligible. Obviously the NCAA has the final say on them being eligible or not but I can't imagine the NCAA is going to take the word of kids and families in such a public case and assume the FBI is wrong

[gumby]

My last post didn't go over well with the Miller-fans. But I have a new theory for you that you'll love that completely exonerates us from any penalty:

What if Miller wasn't even aware that Book was still on his coaching staff!! The same thing happened with Damon Stoudamire. You'd see him on the bench there at the games, but did Miller know? Same thing with Book

Plausible deniability - BOOM!

(However I do prefer the theory that the FBI tipped off Miller and asked him to go deep undercover with the code name "Johnny Arizona", and a big mustache and wig disguise, to figure out which one of his assistants was on the take.)

Either way we have lots of outs here and in no way is the UA under any kind of dark cloud. Smooth sailing baby! 5-star recruits come on down.

Ok, im getting back in my trench with my trusty M-16, ready to take down any charlie that comes for Miller. See you later - Ooh Rah!

Change "my last" to "all my posts."

[gumby]

Better to ask for forgiveness than permission

Win and vacate

Bumper stickers. Change mouse to cat.

[gumby]

I hope so... would really suck for guys like zo and the upper class to get screwed out on that opportunity for a final 4. When they had no involvement

TBD. There is an internal review. I suppose it depends on how expansive that is.

[Hank of sb]

Anyone think we self sanction with a post season ban?

Very, very possible.

In fact, self sanctioning and taking the hit now may very well be the smart move. The best (realistic) outcome for the UA is to take the punishment immediately and get it out of the way. The uncertainty will only drive recruits away (its already happening). If we self sanction and are lucky, the NCAA might agree with the punishment and all we lose is the 2018 tournament and probably a scholarship or two for a couple of years. The uncertainty might clear up before the end of the season and the damage to future recruiting classes would be minimized.

If we wait for the NCAA to sanction us, and play in the 2018 tournament, we might end up with a multi-year ban on postseason play. In that event recruiting would be destroyed for 2018, 2019 and 2020. We might not recover until the middle of the next decade. Taking the hit now and minimizing the damage to recruiting may very well be the smart route.

This is what I've have surmised from the first day. And self sanctions do work, especially if they are punitive enough. (Player gone. At least 4 scholarships over two years. No 2018 post-season.) Indeed, the UofA President might call the NCAA with his report in hand and tell them what he is planning on doing and why, with the hopes they will ratify his plan with the caveat no further information comes to fore.

Besides, "win and vacate" is a preposterous thought.

As if a single administrative body--the UofA, the ABOR, the Pac-12, the NCAA-- won't try to preclude this possibility. Not one admistrator--anywhere-- wants to give this idea a chance of happening. What an attitude!

My goodness.

The whole idea is to get Arizona back up to speed--with Miller, if possible, and as soon a possible.

A failed gamble that this is all Book would be the death penalty by 1000 cuts.....starting next spring.

[ChooChooCat]

The whole idea is to get Arizona back up to speed--with Miller, if possible, and as soon a possible.

Great idea. That means get to the god damn Final Four or better, then sanction yourself, and deal with it from there.

Shut up Hank.

[CalStateTempe]

I want a this years basketball shirt to say "university 4" in school colors with "win and vacate" the slogans on the back.

Make it a point of pride how ridiculous these charges are and how rouge book was.

[Alieberman]

This thread has officially jumped the shark

[Statfreak77]

This thread has officially jumped the shark

Thanks, Russ.

[wyo-cat]

I was walking by McKale and heard that the U of A is going to self impose a pre-season ban for basketball next year.

Swear.

[CalStateTempe]

Lol

From who?

[ChooChooCat]

I was walking by McKale and heard that the U of A is going to self impose a pre-season ban for basketball next year.

Swear.

Pre-season ban? Clarify what that means please.

Like we won't play the Red/Blue or exhibition games? lol

[HiCat]

I was walking by McKale and heard that the U of A is going to self impose a pre-season ban for basketball next year.

Swear.

Pre-season ban? Clarify what that means please.

Like we won't play the Red/Blue or exhibition games? lol

Ditto this.

Kidding?

[CatHoops]

Maybe the fbi eventually goes after ncaa on their amateurism???

[Statfreak77]

I was walking by McKale and heard that the U of A is going to self impose a pre-season ban for basketball next year.

Swear.

Pre-season ban? Clarify what that means please.

Like we won't play the Red/Blue or exhibition games? lol

Ditto this.

Kidding?

No.

He swore.

[Statfreak77]

I was walking by McKale and heard that the U of A is going to self impose a pre-season ban for basketball next year.

Swear.

Did you hear a conversation between Wilbur and Wilma?

[threenumberones]

I was walking by McKale and heard that the U of A is going to self impose a pre-season ban for basketball next year.

Swear.

Did you hear a conversation between Wilbur and Wilma?

I'm guessing it was the statue of Lute mumbling to himself...oh and it hasn't been built yet.

[Statfreak77]

I was walking by McKale and heard that the U of A is going to self impose a pre-season ban for basketball next year.

Swear.

Did you hear a conversation between Wilbur and Wilma?

I'm guessing it was the statue of Lute mumbling to himself...oh and it hasn't been built yet.

I mean, if you hear something, great. Awesome.

But don't drop it and run without providing any merit. That is how you get run from a message board.

[NYCat]

Impose a post season ban (next year) before the season (pre season)??