2018-2019 Arizona Basketball

[catgrad97]

True. Does that say more about Miller or more about the mentality of the players?

[baycat93]

Randolph, Barcello, Lee, Doutrive, Williams, 4 stars, Akot a 5 star.

That's a lot of missed evaluations. It's not like Miller was the only one to offer them too.

People are high on Williams, but he is only shooting 38% and 31% 3 pt with 3.7 assists and 1.7 TO a game.

Randolph is shooting 39%/29% with 1.1/1.3 A.TO.

Luther had 10 boards a game his least season at Pitt, and only averages 4 now. Not too great for the strongest guy on the team.


-

Merk, hard to quibble with Miller and mis-evaluations, especially at PG. However, I felt Williams had started to turn the corner and during conference play was our best player (not a huge stretch). He was hitting 40% from 3 and leading the team in scoring. He was still struggling with TO's. Would his ratio be better if he had players that could convert? Hard to call Williams a miss.

Where I think Miller misses most is BBIQ and mentality. He has a system and that system emphasizes defense first, second and probably third. IMO, he should identify and prioritize the highest ranked elite defender in every class. Motor, mentality and IQ should be prioritized.

MIssing on guys like Simmons, Jerret, Randolph, Comanche, Simon, Akot destroy his ability to keep a productive bench and get continuity.

Miller seems to have learned his lesson on PG's (Williams/Quinnerly combo; Mannion/Williams pairing; 2020 seems to want multiple PG's). Hopefully he can continue to bring in multiple quality PG's.

Guys like AG, RHJ, NJ, TJ, Tarc all had flaws in their offensive game. But they were hard nosed willing defenders who could execute Miller's system. Why he has struggled to identify similar players since then is a mystery. Other's like Trier and Stanley were more offensively blessed, but had the that dog mentality we see so clearly lacking on this team.

[Merkin]

Merk, hard to quibble with Miller and mis-evaluations, especially at PG. However, I felt Williams had started to turn the corner and during conference play was our best player (not a huge stretch). He was hitting 40% from 3 and leading the team in scoring. He was still struggling with TO's. Would his ratio be better if he had players that could convert? Hard to call Williams a miss.

Good point, and truly one of my favorite Cats this season. Outside of Jeter, probably the only one I want to see return, perhaps besides Doutrive who is just awfully raw but has a great motor.

Unfortunately, I don't see Williams ever making an impact with his congenital knee issue.

Ray Smith redux.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Randolph, Barcello, Lee, Doutrive, Williams, 4 stars, Akot a 5 star.

That's a lot of missed evaluations. It's not like Miller was the only one to offer them too.

People are high on Williams, but he is only shooting 38% and 31% 3 pt with 3.7 assists and 1.7 TO a game.

Randolph is shooting 39%/29% with 1.1/1.3 A.TO.

Luther had 10 boards a game his least season at Pitt, and only averages 4 now. Not too great for the strongest guy on the team.


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BWill was at 44% and 40% in conference. That's part of it with him. He was up and down early, but really was coming on when his knee cropped up.

Randolph has never evolved beyond an iffy volume shooter with a penchant for bad shots.

But we had to win battles for them. People talk about Miller's evals...Zaga and Oregon were all over Williams and we were glad to get him.

[RiseAndFire]

Who was the last player to actually improve perceptively under this coach? Cant think of a good example but there are lots of examples of players just maintianing status quo or regressing (Mayes, PJC, Simon, Chol, Kobi, Rawle, Tarc, Akot, Dusan, D.Smith)

Thats not called "missing/misevaluating the recruit" its called being a crap coach who is unable to develop non-5-star recruits.

[U.P. Zona Fan]

All right see if my new signature line shows up.

Thanks R&F

[Spaceman Spiff]

Who was the last player to actually improve perceptively under this coach? Cant think of a good example but there are lots of examples of players just maintianing status quo or regressing (Mayes, PJC, Simon, Chol, Kobi, Rawle, Tarc, Akot, Dusan, D.Smith)

Thats not called "missing/misevaluating the recruit" its called being a crap coach who is unable to develop non-5-star recruits.

Dusan improved massively. You also listed multiple guys who were here only one year.

There are plenty of guys who improved. York, Nick Johnson, Solomon Hill, Dusan, Trier. Hell, PJC's average points and rebounds improved every single year he was here, as did his win shares. Even Zeus improved year to year in normal and advanced stats except for a slight decline soph/junior year.

This is a weak troll, even by your standards. You listed a guy who averaged 3.4 ppg and 2.0 rpg as a freshman and 12.2 ppg and 6.9 rpg as a senior on higher PER as a guy who didn't improve.

[RiseAndFire]

lol dusan scoring improved from 17 to 18 (per 40 mins) over the course of his career. I guess that counts as massive improvement. We also know he still couldn’t defend in his sr year. being a statue and all (stuck playing man against smaller and quicker opponents in this unadjustable system)

PJC cannot be listed as an improvement seeing as how he is the #1 scapegoat for all millers failures the past four years. must i dig up the threads trashing him endlessly?

U.P i’m not seeing a sig under you? I see spiffs obnoxious massive image in his sig but not yours? idk

[Chicat]

(stuck playing man against smaller and quicker opponents in this unadjustable system)

Dusan guarded the opposing Center. Was there some bigger and slower sixth man out there that Dusan should have been guarding?

[U.P. Zona Fan]

lol dusan scoring improved from 17 to 18 (per 40 mins) over the course of his career. I guess that counts as massive improvement. We also know he still couldn’t defend in his sr year. being a statue and all (stuck playing man against smaller and quicker opponents in this unadjustable system)

PJC cannot be listed as an improvement seeing as how he is the #1 scapegoat for all millers failures the past four years. must i dig up the threads trashing him endlessly?

U.P i’m not seeing a sig under you? I see spiffs obnoxious massive image in his sig but not yours? idk

I replied to your email, not sure if you got it or if that goes to the board somewhere. I added it and it said it was too long, needs to be 255 characters or less, I gave you an opportunity to edit it, or I could. Let me know.

Edit, so I was using my Gmail account, not the pm service on the board.

[Spaceman Spiff]

lol dusan scoring improved from 17 to 18 (per 40 mins) over the course of his career. I guess that counts as massive improvement. We also know he still couldn’t defend in his sr year. being a statue and all (stuck playing man against smaller and quicker opponents in this unadjustable system)

PJC cannot be listed as an improvement seeing as how he is the #1 scapegoat for all millers failures the past four years. must i dig up the threads trashing him endlessly?

U.P i’m not seeing a sig under you? I see spiffs obnoxious massive image in his sig but not yours? idk

At 8 MPG, Dusan's freshman year production was against backups and in garbage time. Maintaining vs starters is indicative of improvement. Going from 8 MPG to a starter is also indicative of improvement.

I like how you punt out of actual stats that show PJC improving. He had physical liabilities that weren't going to improve. Just because you can't teach size doesn't mean PJC didn't measurably improve.

Both those guys just had physical issues that wouldn't change. So, try again for your lack of improvement claim.

[Merkin]

TJ McConnell was the "other guy" in that UA had 4 future NBAers and the other guy.

Look at him now. That's not player development?

And those other guys who bailed on Miller and the UA, where are they now?

Grant "pit stop" Jerrett is playing in the Bosnian league. Brandon Ashley is out of basketball.

PJC will never overcome being too short and too slow, along with Zeus having alligator arms. Ristic's physical limitations are already mentioned above.

Kyle Fogg also developed very nicely, became an European all star.

[Longhorned]

Randolph, Barcello, Lee, Doutrive, Williams, 4 stars, Akot a 5 star.

That's a lot of missed evaluations. It's not like Miller was the only one to offer them too.

People are high on Williams, but he is only shooting 38% and 31% 3 pt with 3.7 assists and 1.7 TO a game.

Randolph is shooting 39%/29% with 1.1/1.3 A.TO.

Luther had 10 boards a game his least season at Pitt, and only averages 4 now. Not too great for the strongest guy on the team.


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BWill was at 44% and 40% in conference. That's part of it with him. He was up and down early, but really was coming on when his knee cropped up.

Randolph has never evolved beyond an iffy volume shooter with a penchant for bad shots.

But we had to win battles for them. People talk about Miller's evals...Zaga and Oregon were all over Williams and we were glad to get him.

Easy now. It could happen to anyone.

[EVCat]

MIssing on guys like Simmons, Jerret, Randolph, Comanche, Simon, Akot destroy his ability to keep a productive bench and get continuity.

Did he miss on Simmons, Jerret, or Simon? I would think Comanche is, at worst, an incomplete.

Simmons was a huge factor for us when we had injuries early, but was just a freshman and made mistakes and had huge talent ahead of him. He bolted for the league, and is successful, given his draft status. Jerrett left too early. If he stays, we are likely 2014 national champs...he was very effective for a freshman playing behind some super players at his position his freshman year. Simon was a good eval...he just didn't like having others recruited for his position. He went off to St Johns and has been a good college player. Comanche, again, never bothered to be taught how to play...he left his development up to the pros, and that's not a good idea if you are entering as an expendable piece.

The PG situation was infuriating. But look who we really wanted (I REALLY wanted) that the PJC dad block seemed to affect most...Derryck Thornton, Jr. He flamed out at Duke, is serviceable at USC. Miller with him for 3 or 4 years? Is there any doubt he'd be better than he is now? He was such a fluid player with strong handle and seemingly ambidextrous...

[azgreg]

Easy now. It could happen to anyone.

[RiseAndFire]

(stuck playing man against smaller and quicker opponents in this unadjustable system)

Dusan guarded the opposing Center. Was there some bigger and slower sixth man out there that Dusan should have been guarding?

That's the point, there is nobody bigger and slower in the conference. And yet Miller STILL had him running out and hedging the 3pt line in his inflexible man-only system. How many times did we get burned on PnR with Dus out on the perimeter? Its yet another example of not putting the players you have in position to be most successful, watching them fail and doing nothign about it other than blame their effort.


Spiff you were not as nasty as some to PJC but don't act like you were singing his praises. Here are some things people said about PJC,

The PJC only strategy really limited us.

PJC was....just small and not particularly effective as a starter.

Williams should be better than PJC ever was pretty fast. PJC was a good kid but always with such a low ceiling.

Those are some ringing endorsements! - It sure sounds like PJC really improved a lot over his 4 years under Miller!

TJ McConnell was the "other guy" in that UA had 4 future NBAers and the other guy. Look at him now. That's not player development?
And those other guys who bailed on Miller and the UA, where are they now? Kyle Fogg also developed very nicely, became an European all star.

McConnell like Trier and others only really flourished once they left Miller's bennett ball system. Nobody here expected these guys to be occasional NBA starters or get real minutes for their teams based on what they showed at UA.

The better question is why do so many players bail on Miller by transfer or just declaring waay to early? Comanche - Jarrett - Simon - Chol - Ashley - Akot? Probably the same reason that when you look at a Miller teams body language towards the end of any given year you get a very clear sense that nobody is enjoying playing basketball and can't wait for the season to be over.

[Chicat]

(stuck playing man against smaller and quicker opponents in this unadjustable system)

Dusan guarded the opposing Center. Was there some bigger and slower sixth man out there that Dusan should have been guarding?

That's the point, there is nobody bigger and slower in the conference. And yet Miller STILL had him running out and hedging the 3pt line in his inflexible man-only system. How many times did we get burned on PnR with Dus out on the perimeter? Its yet another example of not putting the players you have in position to be most successful, watching them fail and doing nothign about it other than blame their effort.

So playing zone defense makes the other team play big slow people Dusan could guard?

Newsflash: Just because you use a zone doesn’t mean you eliminate mismatches. In fact, quite the opposite. Try watching basketball some time. You might learn something.

[Spaceman Spiff]

MIssing on guys like Simmons, Jerret, Randolph, Comanche, Simon, Akot destroy his ability to keep a productive bench and get continuity.

Did he miss on Simmons, Jerret, or Simon? I would think Comanche is, at worst, an incomplete.

Simmons was a huge factor for us when we had injuries early, but was just a freshman and made mistakes and had huge talent ahead of him. He bolted for the league, and is successful, given his draft status. Jerrett left too early. If he stays, we are likely 2014 national champs...he was very effective for a freshman playing behind some super players at his position his freshman year. Simon was a good eval...he just didn't like having others recruited for his position. He went off to St Johns and has been a good college player. Comanche, again, never bothered to be taught how to play...he left his development up to the pros, and that's not a good idea if you are entering as an expendable piece.

The PG situation was infuriating. But look who we really wanted (I REALLY wanted) that the PJC dad block seemed to affect most...Derryck Thornton, Jr. He flamed out at Duke, is serviceable at USC. Miller with him for 3 or 4 years? Is there any doubt he'd be better than he is now? He was such a fluid player with strong handle and seemingly ambidextrous...

Kobi wasn't a bad evaluation. He contributed until Trier returned. Then, he just got cut out of the rotation because Kadeem, Trier and Rawle were all ahead of him and contributing big time.

Simon was more a developmental guy and didn't like being developmental. He had tools, but to today at SJU, he's a shaky jump shooter.

Guys who leave before they have much chance to develop aren't truly misevaluations. I thought Comanche was developing well. He got much stronger and developed his post game. He just didn't want to be here. There's a difference between a missed eval and a guy who just wants to leave.

[RiseAndFire]

(stuck playing man against smaller and quicker opponents in this unadjustable system)

Dusan guarded the opposing Center. Was there some bigger and slower sixth man out there that Dusan should have been guarding?

That's the point, there is nobody bigger and slower in the conference. And yet Miller STILL had him running out and hedging the 3pt line in his inflexible man-only system. How many times did we get burned on PnR with Dus out on the perimeter? Its yet another example of not putting the players you have in position to be most successful, watching them fail and doing nothign about it other than blame their effort.

So playing zone defense makes the other team play big slow people Dusan could guard?

Newsflash: Just because you use a zone doesn’t mean you eliminate mismatches. In fact, quite the opposite. Try watching basketball some time. You might learn something.

Newsflash: a 7 ft statue like Dusan should be defending near the basket, not away from the basket. Zone isnt the answer all the time but it keeps Dusan (or Ayton, or Tarc) near the basket. If a smaller quicker player wants to drive to the basket well guess what 7' Dusan is waiting for him instead of being on the perimeter somewhere hard hedging. Advantage 7ft statue. This is called "putting your players in position to succeed". Or you can be Captain DoWhatWeDo and watch them fail and then after say they weren't playing defense with enough "effort" or "nastiness" or some other cop out.

Kobi Simmons
Kobi Simmons was not a miss, just another case of the coach mismanaging his roster and destroying a players confidence. Of course Kobi was benched for poor offense, but rather because Trier came back and because Miller didn' like his defense. (defense is the reason behind every Miller decision in case you haven't noticed).

The funny part about the Kobi story is how after relegating him to the bench the entire second half of the season Miller throws him in the Xavier game because we can't score against the zone (of course) and expects him to turn on the switch and contribute.Just perfect!

[Spaceman Spiff]

This is why Rise and Fire's trolling is so bad. Dusan struggled in a big/big lineup with Ayton. A 2-3 can't help, because it requires one of them to be SOLELY a perimeter defender. As a single big, Dusan was ok in packline, as seen by his role in a much better defensive team in 16-17.

Kobi played vs Xavier because Rawle broke his hand and was struggling badly. What was Miller's choice, not try someone new with Rawle struggling through a freak injury?

As for roster mismanagement, should we have told Kobi, a McDonald's AA not to come because we had other talented wings? Getting a lot of talent is good. He was up against a lot of other good, productive players.

[Chicat]

(stuck playing man against smaller and quicker opponents in this unadjustable system)

Dusan guarded the opposing Center. Was there some bigger and slower sixth man out there that Dusan should have been guarding?

That's the point, there is nobody bigger and slower in the conference. And yet Miller STILL had him running out and hedging the 3pt line in his inflexible man-only system. How many times did we get burned on PnR with Dus out on the perimeter? Its yet another example of not putting the players you have in position to be most successful, watching them fail and doing nothign about it other than blame their effort.

So playing zone defense makes the other team play big slow people Dusan could guard?

Newsflash: Just because you use a zone doesn’t mean you eliminate mismatches. In fact, quite the opposite. Try watching basketball some time. You might learn something.

Newsflash: a 7 ft statue like Dusan should be defending near the basket, not away from the basket. Zone isnt the answer all the time but it keeps Dusan (or Ayton, or Tarc) near the basket. If a smaller quicker player wants to drive to the basket well guess what 7' Dusan is waiting for him instead of being on the perimeter somewhere hard hedging. Advantage 7ft statue. This is called "putting your players in position to succeed". Or you can be Captain DoWhatWeDo and watch them fail and then after say they weren't playing defense with enough "effort" or "nastiness" or some other cop out.

Newsflash: It doesn’t take much to pull a center out of position in a zone by running a 1-3-1 and attacking the short corners. So instead of seeing Dusan hedge & recover you would have seen him dunked on after back cuts. Fun!

[84Cat]

How did Coach K do without his best player last night R & F? Losing 3 starters throughout the season makes it pretty tough to have consistent success

[legallykenny]

MIssing on guys like Simmons, Jerret, Randolph, Comanche, Simon, Akot destroy his ability to keep a productive bench and get continuity.

Did he miss on Simmons, Jerret, or Simon? I would think Comanche is, at worst, an incomplete.

Simmons was a huge factor for us when we had injuries early, but was just a freshman and made mistakes and had huge talent ahead of him. He bolted for the league, and is successful, given his draft status. Jerrett left too early. If he stays, we are likely 2014 national champs...he was very effective for a freshman playing behind some super players at his position his freshman year. Simon was a good eval...he just didn't like having others recruited for his position. He went off to St Johns and has been a good college player. Comanche, again, never bothered to be taught how to play...he left his development up to the pros, and that's not a good idea if you are entering as an expendable piece.

The PG situation was infuriating. But look who we really wanted (I REALLY wanted) that the PJC dad block seemed to affect most...Derryck Thornton, Jr. He flamed out at Duke, is serviceable at USC. Miller with him for 3 or 4 years? Is there any doubt he'd be better than he is now? He was such a fluid player with strong handle and seemingly ambidextrous...

Kobi wasn't a bad evaluation. He contributed until Trier returned. Then, he just got cut out of the rotation because Kadeem, Trier and Rawle were all ahead of him and contributing big time.

Simon was more a developmental guy and didn't like being developmental. He had tools, but to today at SJU, he's a shaky jump shooter.

Guys who leave before they have much chance to develop aren't truly misevaluations. I thought Comanche was developing well. He got much stronger and developed his post game. He just didn't want to be here. There's a difference between a missed eval and a guy who just wants to leave.

That's a rather narrow definition of "misevaluation". Mental makeup and character is important and Miller has either missed on that or missed in physical talent evaluations by thinking they were more ready than they are. This is why I don't celebrate Miller's recruiting titles the way some on here do. If you're going to recruit like Duke and UK, then you need to get 3-4 top-10/15 level guys a year and expect a new starting group of super talented freshmen every year. If you're not doing that, then you need to recruit a balanced roster of your one impact freshman a year and guys who are actually willing to stay around. He's gotten caught in the middle of recruiting guys just below that level that maybe other teams aren't chasing quite as hard because they know it's not a guy who will make an impact yet and won't have the mentality to fight for it for 3 years.

[Newportcat]

Is this season over yet?....sorry bad fan

Screw Rice Baseball LK!

[Spaceman Spiff]

MIssing on guys like Simmons, Jerret, Randolph, Comanche, Simon, Akot destroy his ability to keep a productive bench and get continuity.

Did he miss on Simmons, Jerret, or Simon? I would think Comanche is, at worst, an incomplete.

Simmons was a huge factor for us when we had injuries early, but was just a freshman and made mistakes and had huge talent ahead of him. He bolted for the league, and is successful, given his draft status. Jerrett left too early. If he stays, we are likely 2014 national champs...he was very effective for a freshman playing behind some super players at his position his freshman year. Simon was a good eval...he just didn't like having others recruited for his position. He went off to St Johns and has been a good college player. Comanche, again, never bothered to be taught how to play...he left his development up to the pros, and that's not a good idea if you are entering as an expendable piece.

The PG situation was infuriating. But look who we really wanted (I REALLY wanted) that the PJC dad block seemed to affect most...Derryck Thornton, Jr. He flamed out at Duke, is serviceable at USC. Miller with him for 3 or 4 years? Is there any doubt he'd be better than he is now? He was such a fluid player with strong handle and seemingly ambidextrous...

Kobi wasn't a bad evaluation. He contributed until Trier returned. Then, he just got cut out of the rotation because Kadeem, Trier and Rawle were all ahead of him and contributing big time.

Simon was more a developmental guy and didn't like being developmental. He had tools, but to today at SJU, he's a shaky jump shooter.

Guys who leave before they have much chance to develop aren't truly misevaluations. I thought Comanche was developing well. He got much stronger and developed his post game. He just didn't want to be here. There's a difference between a missed eval and a guy who just wants to leave.

That's a rather narrow definition of "misevaluation". Mental makeup and character is important and Miller has either missed on that or missed in physical talent evaluations by thinking they were more ready than they are. This is why I don't celebrate Miller's recruiting titles the way some on here do. If you're going to recruit like Duke and UK, then you need to get 3-4 top-10/15 level guys a year and expect a new starting group of super talented freshmen every year. If you're not doing that, then you need to recruit a balanced roster of your one impact freshman a year and guys who are actually willing to stay around. He's gotten caught in the middle of recruiting guys just below that level that maybe other teams aren't chasing quite as hard because they know it's not a guy who will make an impact yet and won't have the mentality to fight for it for 3 years.

As I've posted before, the average is 40% of players transferring. I think it's unrealistic to hold Miller to a standard when we've actually had fewer early departures than the national average.

There aren't many programs recruiting high level talent that do a whole lot better. The downside of getting talented kids is that other teams want them as transfers.

I mean, look at some of our recent seniors. Dusan, Parker, Kadeem, Zeus, York. We have guys who stick it out for years. This just isn't the older days when transferring was less common.

[EVCat]

heck...we have a Duke transfer (Jeter) and have played against a Duke transfer (Thornton, Jr.). Both are playing major D1 minutes.

2017 signee Jordan Tucker transferred from Duke along with Jeter and Thornton. He's a 10 and 5 guy in his first season at Butler.

2017 signee Gary Trent, Jr. bounced after one year, and was no one's lottery pick. 2nd round, 37th pick. He is averaging 4 minutes a game in Portland after being traded from Sacramento...I guess he is one of the fortunate ones that has a roster spot as a 2nd rounder. The one year requirement was to keep the NBA from missing on all these kids who weren't ready, but Trent just up and got the fk out of town when the new class was coming in. Didn't even try to compete with this year's Duke super class.

That's just Duke. There's 4 recent "high profile" players who left a HOF coach. Was it mental makeup and character, and did K misevaluate them?

Or is recruiting really not a science, and you can't just pick who you want? The closest there is in the land in being able to grocery shop for talent is Duke, and even they have huge turnover.

[baycat93]

MIssing on guys like Simmons, Jerret, Randolph, Comanche, Simon, Akot destroy his ability to keep a productive bench and get continuity.

Did he miss on Simmons, Jerret, or Simon? I would think Comanche is, at worst, an incomplete.

Simmons was a huge factor for us when we had injuries early, but was just a freshman and made mistakes and had huge talent ahead of him. He bolted for the league, and is successful, given his draft status. Jerrett left too early. If he stays, we are likely 2014 national champs...he was very effective for a freshman playing behind some super players at his position his freshman year. Simon was a good eval...he just didn't like having others recruited for his position. He went off to St Johns and has been a good college player. Comanche, again, never bothered to be taught how to play...he left his development up to the pros, and that's not a good idea if you are entering as an expendable piece.

The PG situation was infuriating. But look who we really wanted (I REALLY wanted) that the PJC dad block seemed to affect most...Derryck Thornton, Jr. He flamed out at Duke, is serviceable at USC. Miller with him for 3 or 4 years? Is there any doubt he'd be better than he is now? He was such a fluid player with strong handle and seemingly ambidextrous...

Kobi wasn't a bad evaluation. He contributed until Trier returned. Then, he just got cut out of the rotation because Kadeem, Trier and Rawle were all ahead of him and contributing big time.

Simon was more a developmental guy and didn't like being developmental. He had tools, but to today at SJU, he's a shaky jump shooter.

Guys who leave before they have much chance to develop aren't truly misevaluations. I thought Comanche was developing well. He got much stronger and developed his post game. He just didn't want to be here. There's a difference between a missed eval and a guy who just wants to leave.

That's a rather narrow definition of "misevaluation". Mental makeup and character is important and Miller has either missed on that or missed in physical talent evaluations by thinking they were more ready than they are. This is why I don't celebrate Miller's recruiting titles the way some on here do. If you're going to recruit like Duke and UK, then you need to get 3-4 top-10/15 level guys a year and expect a new starting group of super talented freshmen every year. If you're not doing that, then you need to recruit a balanced roster of your one impact freshman a year and guys who are actually willing to stay around. He's gotten caught in the middle of recruiting guys just below that level that maybe other teams aren't chasing quite as hard because they know it's not a guy who will make an impact yet and won't have the mentality to fight for it for 3 years.

EV Cat, LK pretty much sums up my thoughts directly above... as I said I think Miller is missing on BBIQ and mentality. The guys I mentioned were/are not Milleresque, IMO. I think Miller's stint as HC of USA basketball took him out of his recruiting comfort zone, gave more power to assistants and we ended up with classes in '15, 16, '17.

Right now on our current roster I would say there are 3 Milleresque players - Williams, Jeter and Lee and the latter two are suspect (but I lean towards them being).

I am encouraged from a recruiting standpoint with what Miller has tried to do ('18) and did/is doing ('19). Green/Mannion/Armstrong seem to be high motor/high competitive personalities who have shown interest in being two way players. Zeke seems like the outlier but maybe it is because he was a little later in the recruitment and not as much was learned about him. Koloko by all accounts is a willing learner and has a high floor on defense (Milleresque imo). Every one of them has good size and mobility for their position and can guard multiple positions (at least the wings). By all accounts they all sound like upstanding citizens.

Key will be getting more than 1 year out of Green/Mannion/Zeke in some combination. Hard to expect all 3 back but none are lottery locks, yet.

[Spaceman Spiff]

heck...we have a Duke transfer (Jeter) and have played against a Duke transfer (Thornton, Jr.). Both are playing major D1 minutes.

2017 signee Jordan Tucker transferred from Duke along with Jeter and Thornton. He's a 10 and 5 guy in his first season at Butler.

2017 signee Gary Trent, Jr. bounced after one year, and was no one's lottery pick. 2nd round, 37th pick. He is averaging 4 minutes a game in Portland after being traded from Sacramento...I guess he is one of the fortunate ones that has a roster spot as a 2nd rounder. The one year requirement was to keep the NBA from missing on all these kids who weren't ready, but Trent just up and got the fk out of town when the new class was coming in. Didn't even try to compete with this year's Duke super class.

That's just Duke. There's 4 recent "high profile" players who left a HOF coach. Was it mental makeup and character, and did K misevaluate them?

Or is recruiting really not a science, and you can't just pick who you want? The closest there is in the land in being able to grocery shop for talent is Duke, and even they have huge turnover.

Trevon Duval left Duke after one year. Where is he now?

It's a fairly constant thing nowadays.

[Merkin]

Trevon Duval left Duke after one year. Where is he now?

It's a fairly constant thing nowadays.

Probably akin to leaving early for the pros too. Brian Williams/Bison Dele was Lute's very first player to declare for the pros early. Sean Elliott certainly didn't need to stay all 4 years, but he did.

Krzyzewski didn't have anyone declare early until 1999.

[legallykenny]

heck...we have a Duke transfer (Jeter) and have played against a Duke transfer (Thornton, Jr.). Both are playing major D1 minutes.

2017 signee Jordan Tucker transferred from Duke along with Jeter and Thornton. He's a 10 and 5 guy in his first season at Butler.

2017 signee Gary Trent, Jr. bounced after one year, and was no one's lottery pick. 2nd round, 37th pick. He is averaging 4 minutes a game in Portland after being traded from Sacramento...I guess he is one of the fortunate ones that has a roster spot as a 2nd rounder. The one year requirement was to keep the NBA from missing on all these kids who weren't ready, but Trent just up and got the fk out of town when the new class was coming in. Didn't even try to compete with this year's Duke super class.

That's just Duke. There's 4 recent "high profile" players who left a HOF coach. Was it mental makeup and character, and did K misevaluate them?

Or is recruiting really not a science, and you can't just pick who you want? The closest there is in the land in being able to grocery shop for talent is Duke, and even they have huge turnover.

Gary Trent Jr. had a successful year. And when he bounced Duke replaced him with another top-3 overall recruit. My point was exactly this -- Sean doesn't bring in multiple kids at that level every year to replace ones who leave (whether as successes or too-early departures) the way Duke does. So he needs kids who will stick around.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Trevon Duval left Duke after one year. Where is he now?

It's a fairly constant thing nowadays.

Probably akin to leaving early for the pros too. Brian Williams/Bison Dele was Lute's very first player to declare for the pros early. Sean Elliott certainly didn't need to stay all 4 years, but he did.

Krzyzewski didn't have anyone declare early until 1999.

It was a different world back then. Shaquille O'Neal spent 3 years at LSU. Today, he's one and done under all circumstances. Times have changed.

[Spaceman Spiff]

heck...we have a Duke transfer (Jeter) and have played against a Duke transfer (Thornton, Jr.). Both are playing major D1 minutes.

2017 signee Jordan Tucker transferred from Duke along with Jeter and Thornton. He's a 10 and 5 guy in his first season at Butler.

2017 signee Gary Trent, Jr. bounced after one year, and was no one's lottery pick. 2nd round, 37th pick. He is averaging 4 minutes a game in Portland after being traded from Sacramento...I guess he is one of the fortunate ones that has a roster spot as a 2nd rounder. The one year requirement was to keep the NBA from missing on all these kids who weren't ready, but Trent just up and got the fk out of town when the new class was coming in. Didn't even try to compete with this year's Duke super class.

That's just Duke. There's 4 recent "high profile" players who left a HOF coach. Was it mental makeup and character, and did K misevaluate them?

Or is recruiting really not a science, and you can't just pick who you want? The closest there is in the land in being able to grocery shop for talent is Duke, and even they have huge turnover.

Gary Trent Jr. had a successful year. And when he bounced Duke replaced him with another top-3 overall recruit. My point was exactly this -- Sean doesn't bring in multiple kids at that level every year to replace ones who leave (whether as successes or too-early departures) the way Duke does. So he needs kids who will stick around.

Yes and no. Miller's had top shelf talent every year from the point he really started recruiting until this one, and the lack of it this year is the FBI/ESPN debacle.

Before this year, in the previous 3 years, we'd brought in Randolph, Alkins, Trier, Simmons, Simon and Ray Smith on the wing. That's 6 top 50 guys and 4 top 20 guys.

Post wise, Ayton followed Markannen, who followed Zeus, Ashley, Victor, etc. We've had a top 20 big man and at least 2 top 20 wings on every team since 12-13, and 12-13 had Nick and Solo, with Solo being barely outside the top 20.

[Newportcat]

Did we actually win a game

[97cats]

yes and crickets - pretty ire

[azgreg]

Does the NIT still require a .500 conference record to qualify?

[CalStateTempe]

Man that fbi espn bullshit was like a torpedo hit to this program.

[EVCat]

Duke could use Trent right now.

Which is the point. They lose depth every year. They just haven't had to tap into it like we have the last two years.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Cal is terrible, but it was nice to win. I hope we can flip it into a Stanford win Sunday. We're still playing to win even if fans are more checked out without real tourney aspirations. Getting next year's returnees better still matters.

Hell, people talk about the awesomeness of amateur sports, then check out when the tourney isn't an option. This is closer to real amateurism then Final Four quest. Just play.

[ChooChooCat]

Duke could use Trent right now.

Which is the point. They lose depth every year. They just haven't had to tap into it like we have the last two years.

The main problem is guys like Trent tell Coach K they intend to be one and dones going into the year, because they think their draft status will be high enough to deem it worthy enough to be one and done. Well what is Coach K supposed to do when guys like Trent tell him that? Not recruit their replacement just in case it doesn't work out that way? No, you go and get that replacement and get him to sign in November (the same month the season starts). Now what happens is the draft stock that Trent thinks he would garner doesn't come to fruition after the season has ended, but Coach K has already done his job and recruited his replacement. That leaves Trent and his ilk 1 of 3 options: 1. Return to the same school, but likely lose minutes or maybe even your starting position to the guy coach recruited to replace you, and further hurting any chance of raising your draft stock 2. Transfer out of that school, but have to wait a year to play and in turn waste 2 more years of not making money playing basketball or 3. Just go pro and take your chances.

Now this sort of arrangement has happened many times at Arizona too, Nick Johnson could've came back, but we had Stanley ready to go to replace him. Brandon Ashley could've came back, but we had Ryan Anderson in the wings. I mean it's an endless story and the coach has to do his job and replace guys who tell them they're not coming back even if circumstances after the year would've change their mind. It sucks, but it's the current climate we live in until the draft age changes.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Duke could use Trent right now.

Which is the point. They lose depth every year. They just haven't had to tap into it like we have the last two years.

Lose talent, recruit and reload. We do it like Duke does, this year our ability to recruit and reload got gutted.

It's snowing in Tucson this morning. It's an apt metaphor for how this season is.

[CalStateTempe]

Duke could use Trent right now.

Which is the point. They lose depth every year. They just haven't had to tap into it like we have the last two years.

The main problem is guys like Trent tell Coach K they intend to be one and dones going into the year, because they think their draft status will be high enough to deem it worthy enough to be one and done. Well what is Coach K supposed to do when guys like Trent tell him that? Not recruit their replacement just in case it doesn't work out that way? No, you go and get that replacement and get him to sign in November (the same month the season starts). Now what happens is the draft stock that Trent thinks he would garner doesn't come to fruition after the season has ended, but Coach K has already done his job and recruited his replacement. That leaves Trent and his ilk 1 of 3 options: 1. Return to the same school, but likely lose minutes or maybe even your starting position to the guy coach recruited to replace you, and further hurting any chance of raising your draft stock 2. Transfer out of that school, but have to wait a year to play and in turn waste 2 more years of not making money playing basketball or 3. Just go pro and take your chances.

Now this sort of arrangement has happened many times at Arizona too, Nick Johnson could've came back, but we had Stanley ready to go to replace him. Brandon Ashley could've came back, but we had Ryan Anderson in the wings. I mean it's an endless story and the coach has to do his job and replace guys who tell them they're not coming back even if circumstances after the year would've change their mind. It sucks, but it's the current climate we live in until the draft age changes.

Good points Choo.

Someday I’d like to know the backstory as to why PJC wasn’t overrecruited.

[PHXCATS]

Man that fbi espn bullshit was like a torpedo hit to this program.

ESPN is total shit

We are getting all we deserve with the FBI. If we fired Book when we should have none of this would he happening

[Merkin]

Nice we can laugh about such things now

[EVCat]

as for the games...Alex has played pretty good now for a few games in a string, minus the injury one. You are starting to see what he might be able to do as a fill in. The shot is getting so much closer, but he is getting to the line and playing more of the mid-range game that he excels in.

DD was unleashed a bit. He forces stuff too much and misses assignments on defense too much to be a regular minute eater...yet. But you can see the quickness and potential there. Certainly hope he gets more minutes, along with Alex, as this season dwindles down.

Ira...another one I want to see more of. This is where we are in this season...let's see what the guys who are going to be the role players who get those big sub minutes the next year or two are at. We aren't getting anywhere this season. Yeah, you have to play the starters, and you are trying to win. But more minutes for Alex when Randolph plays like a dumbshit, or Coleman needs a blow, and more for DD when Alex slides to the 1 and Randolph is needing to sit, or Smith...we have seen that the last 6 games or so, and I hope that continues. Ira is going to get his chances...he needs to relax in that knowledge, and just play a smart game. He also needs to shoot about 1000 elbow shots a practice, because that zone is going to give him that over and over, and he needs to make those to get the D to step so he can drive by and get some more lefty rim rattlers.

This is what I look for down the stretch, the reasons I watch. I always watch, but I admit I am not fulfilled all that much when Luther or Coleman is filling it up, unless it means we win. I want to see some of the future, and we are more and more...

And Nico threw in 42 last night on an off shooting night in the 6A Semis. His acceleration off the first step and hesitation dribble is impressive.

[Spaceman Spiff]

That's the thing. Even if we lose, these games are very valuable for Lee, DD and Barcello. They may not be our stars next year, but learning how to play on this level is severely underrated.

That's one reason I balked at PHX's assertions about the team lacking pride. You can literally see those guys evolving.

[Beachcat97]

Pumped up to get a win. Just need BW back now. Count me among the foolish optimists who think we're winning the Pac tourney and going to the dance

[billk78]

Is Brandon Randolph playing himself off of next year's team? I guess that's a longshot? But man he looks awful. Unless there's an injury I don't know about, he seems to have simply lost any ability to shoot, score, defend, etc. I want to see him do well...but right now---even with a bad team--he hurts more than he helps. IMO Barcello and Doutrive have outplayed him. When does this "slump" become more of a question of whether he is actually good enough for this program?

[baycat93]

Is Brandon Randolph playing himself off of next year's team? I guess that's a longshot? But man he looks awful. Unless there's an injury I don't know about, he seems to have simply lost any ability to shoot, score, defend, etc. I want to see him do well...but right now---even with a bad team--he hurts more than he helps. IMO Barcello and Doutrive have outplayed him. When does this "slump" become more of a question of whether he is actually good enough for this program?

He and/or his handlers certainly can't point to lack of opportunity... lead the team with almost 32 minutes last night.

[dovecanyoncat]

That's the thing. Even if we lose, these games are very valuable for Lee, DD and Barcello. They may not be our stars next year, but learning how to play on this level is severely underrated.

That's why at this point of this season I don't care about a W unless singularly it predicates player development or extends our season in order to do the same. Lee, AB and DD won't be our head and shoulders next year but they will be our torso and core. This is good therapy for me but I tell myself it is good for Miller as well. Isn't this the mission that founded the love most coaches have for the game? As a fan it liberates me not to value our record over our development. Maybe Coach lets himself (remember) think that way as well. With all the crap that's going on, the man deserves some sanctuary: no better place to find it than in the source.

[zonagrad]

Role players like Doutrive, Barcello and Lee will be able to shine in their specific roles once they have difference makers on the floor with them. Right now, they don't have that and they're limited in their production. Statistically, they won't have higher numbers next year but they'll be so valuable with Mannion, Green, Armstrong, etc.. on the floor creating so many opportunities. Future is bright.