Bear Down Wildcats

PieceOfMeat wrote:Am I the only one who really doesn't care who is staying and who is going?

Much like my shift away from caring about recruiting (until they set foot on campus as actual students) I've shifted away from caring much about who stays or goes until next year is here and we've got whoever we've got.

I just find the season to be much more enjoyable when I don't spend the offseason obsessing over things I've zero control over.

yup. i'm in the same boat. i used to be very into recruiting. watching film/highlights/analyzing offer lists etc. but about 3-4 years ago i basically stopped that altogether. will check out the commitments as they come in for a few mins but nothing more. if we were a school with little to no success I would pay more attention to who stayed and left but i know we always have good talent coming in so i'll just wait till they show up.

PieceOfMeat wrote:Am I the only one who really doesn't care who is staying and who is going?

Much like my shift away from caring about recruiting (until they set foot on campus as actual students) I've shifted away from caring much about who stays or goes until next year is here and we've got whoever we've got.

I just find the season to be much more enjoyable when I don't spend the offseason obsessing over things I've zero control over.

Usually I'm in this camp. Not this year though as I really want Lauri back. I think it's tragic how it ended. He simply deserves better. He could be a very special part of the Wildcat family forever, and instead he's going to be part of the 'oh man, if only' club like Gronk. Obviously a Cat but never really moved the needle like he should have.

One condition though and it's sort of unfair. I only want him back if Miller can figure out how to unleash him. Teams solved high roll to the three-point line and those were typically his only looks from deep. He was also more or less ineffective catching the ball at the elbow. In the end he was marginalized into most of his production coming from garbage time or a mismatch in the post. He's so active he still put up numbers, but it often times wasn't the result of the offense. For one I'd like to see more slipped screens and rolls to the bucket. Just throw the damn ball up, he'll go get it. I think that Sean will see that in the tape and *gulp* hopefully adjust.

Chad Ford doesn't know his head from his ass. Game 1: Lauri scored 20 pts on 12 shots despite only one of those attempts being a 3. His first half display, doing it inside and with his dribble, and exhibited excellent midrange shooting touch, was a positive for him. Game 2: Had low post defense questions about Lauri? He completely skunked one of the best centers in the nation and blocked a couple of his shots. He also had 16 points on six shots (what?!?), rebounded out his ass with 11 boards (another question mark), and made his only 3 attempted. Game 3: Off shooting night (1-6 from 3) and the team forgot about him in the 2nd half. Excluding the missed threes, he was 2-3 with the one miss coming on a contested putback. His work on the offensive boards (5 offensive rebounds) again at least alleviates some of the concerns about his rebounding.

So, tell me again how his stock dropped Chad? Because he was 2-8 from deep in three games? Apparently Chad fundamentally outstanding 7 footers having one off night makes your stock drop. His defense, rebounding, and what he did inside of 18 feet raised his stock or at worst, kept it even.

threenumberones wrote:

PieceOfMeat wrote:Am I the only one who really doesn't care who is staying and who is going?

Much like my shift away from caring about recruiting (until they set foot on campus as actual students) I've shifted away from caring much about who stays or goes until next year is here and we've got whoever we've got.

I just find the season to be much more enjoyable when I don't spend the offseason obsessing over things I've zero control over.

Usually I'm in this camp. Not this year though as I really want Lauri back. I think it's tragic how it ended. He simply deserves better. He could be a very special part of the Wildcat family forever, and instead he's going to be part of the 'oh man, if only' club like Gronk. Obviously a Cat but never really moved the needle like he should have.

One condition though and it's sort of unfair. I only want him back if Miller can figure out how to unleash him. Teams solved high roll to the three-point line and those were typically his only looks from deep. He was also more or less ineffective catching the ball at the elbow. In the end he was marginalized into most of his production coming from garbage time or a mismatch in the post. He's so active he still put up numbers, but it often times wasn't the result of the offense. For one I'd like to see more slipped screens and rolls to the bucket. Just throw the damn ball up, he'll go get it. I think that Sean will see that in the tape and *gulp* hopefully adjust.

In fairness to Lauri (and some to Miller), this was his first year playing ball in the United States and he was only a freshman. His talent masked a lot of his rawness, especially within 15-18 feet. We also lacked great point guard play, he was clicking with PJC and of course PJC got hurt right as that was coming to fruition, and then Trier comes in and that threw a wrench in everything. What really did him in the most though was our inability to be consistent against a zone. That killed spacing and much of a two-man game. Packs things in against Lauri, makes sure there is always a man close to him to closeout, and there are always defenders at the feet of that zone if he uses his dribble. Add to the fact that you had Ristic hogging much of the interior, which makes it harder for anyone to operate inside w the log jam he creates. In the event he does return, he would be one of the most dominant offensive players in recent memory in NCAA basketball, especially if we solve our zone issues.

rgdeuce wrote:Chad Ford doesn't know his head from his ass. Game 1: Lauri scored 20 pts on 12 shots despite only one of those attempts being a 3. His first half display, doing it inside and with his dribble, and exhibited excellent midrange shooting touch, was a positive for him. Game 2: Had low post defense questions about Lauri? He completely skunked one of the best centers in the nation and blocked a couple of his shots. He also had 16 points on six shots (what?!?), rebounded out his ass with 11 boards (another question mark), and made his only 3 attempted. Game 3: Off shooting night (1-6 from 3) and the team forgot about him in the 2nd half. Excluding the missed threes, he was 2-3 with the one miss coming on a contested putback. His work on the offensive boards (5 offensive rebounds) again at least alleviates some of the concerns about his rebounding.

So, tell me again how his stock dropped Chad? Because he was 2-8 from deep in three games? Apparently Chad fundamentally outstanding 7 footers having one off night makes your stock drop. His defense, rebounding, and what he did inside of 18 feet raised his stock or at worst, kept it even.

I agree with this. ND, Lauri had his best offensive half of the year and was just dominant. St. Mary's, he wasn't dominant offensively, but had one of his best all around games. Xavier he was too passive, but that was the result of a few things and he did show out on the glass.

I question how Zo improved his stock if Lauri fell. Zo had a volume shooting performance, but was way off at times and other than getting to the line a lot late against ND and hitting a hot streak in the 2nd against Xavier, he did less than he's done in a lot of late season games.

I thought Lauri did everything but shoot the 3 well and Zo did less than we got accustomed to in the tourney. I don't get why Zo rises and Lauri falls.

Lauri should come back and be totally lottery.

I know that I being selfish.

Kobi Simmons is the new Grant Jarrett. Fuck him.

splitsecond wrote:Kobi Simmons is the new Grant Jarrett. Fuck him.

That's an awful thing to say to a kid who at this point is still a part of the team.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

rgdeuce wrote: I question how Zo improved his stock if Lauri fell. Zo had a volume shooting performance, but was way off at times and other than getting to the line a lot late against ND and hitting a hot streak in the 2nd against Xavier, he did less than he's done in a lot of late season games.

I thought Lauri did everything but shoot the 3 well and Zo did less than we got accustomed to in the tourney. I don't get why Zo rises and Lauri falls.

Less room for error up at the top of the draft board. Zo 'improved' from undrafted to late second round (or wherever he's at). I think that's the difference

Chicat wrote:

splitsecond wrote:Kobi Simmons is the new Grant Jarrett. Fuck him.

That's an awful thing to say to a kid who at this point is still a part of the team.

Exactly. I also have no hard feelings if he does go, he was always a one and done. Some players just don't like college. Don't know what his situation is, but best of luck to the kid. He seemed to be well liked by other players.

Go to the D league for a couple of years, just play ball, no other worries.

Yeah, unless there's more information, Kobi seems like a great kid. Stayed with it even though he loss playing time.

Until he calls Arizona a pit stop right?

Grant had no business taking that shot that lost it against Ohio.

Also slacked off on his defender on the preceding play allowing them to drain a 3.

Then called Arizona a pit stop and lit a match over a kerosene soaked bridge on the way out.

Then watched that seventies show in the d league praying god would give him more minutes.

Kobe is the furthest thing from all of that and I wish him all the best. Seems like a really good kid.

Where's the premature hard feelings and "fuck him" posts from anonymous message board posters for Lauri?

splitsecond wrote:Kobi Simmons is the new Grant Jarrett. Fuck him.

Slow your roll bro. Kobi went above and beyond this year and i think he'll have a very good NBA career.

Chicat wrote:Where's the premature hard feelings and "fuck him" posts from anonymous message board posters for Lauri?

I don't get the anger when a kid who was always supposed to be thinking one snd done winds up (maybe) being one and done.

Players leave early and that is the way it is. But I am not sure I will ever get used to players that declare for the NBA early (especially after one year) because they can't break into the starting rotation in college.

Selfishly I want Lauri to stay. But it's probably in the kid's best interest to go pro if he's guaranteed a top 10 pick. Hard to risk a down year or injury and losing out.

Trier on the other hand would benefit from coming back IMO. Due to the suspension he never really got to show his true skills and parts of his game were exposed. He mainly needs to work on making his teammates better (less hero ball), and his defense (which is getting better). He could play his way into next year's top 15 for sure with a weaker draft class.

If Kobi is unhappy it's his right to test the waters. Probably too talented to redshirt and transfer. That would delay him 2 more years. if he goes to the D league and develops maybe he could become a legit NBA player. He certainly has the athleticism. I didn't see him sulking much on the court or on the bench and I even saw him embrace Miller at one point. So I don't know. We saw some great play from this kid early on before Trier came back.

My prediction is Lauri is gone. And either Trier or Kobi will be back (one of the two). If Kobe knows Trier is leaving maybe he sticks it out another year knowing he will get more PT. If Trier stays Kobe is gone. Again, just my guess here. I think Rawle stays.

Markannen stays, Trier is gone.

Irish27 wrote:Markannen stays, Trier is gone.

I think all of us would take that.

Although I age with billk78, serves LM better to go, and AT to stay.

If Trier returns next year, he's going to be an assassin.

Nobody Leaves until we get to the Final 4

Nobody.

I'm of two minds on Lauri. Love to have him, but it's become so clear to me that guards are vital. The stronger we are there, the better our chances.

Look at Gonzaga. Lost Sabonis and Wiltjer. Then got better, because of the upgrade at guard with Williams-Goss and Mathews (plus Perkins and Melson improved).

So I'm sorta thinking we have the frontcourt necessary without LM, but it's the guards where we need to improve. Without Trier, we're nothing special there. Even with him, they all need to be better.

Pure guess.

Allonzo and Lauri leave, Kobi probably gone too. Rawle returns.

Any chance that Kobi was ever going to stay evaporated the day Miller decided Kobi didn't fit any more in our one-size-fits-all defense-oriented system. I think it was after the Wash series when he went off on how the NBA wouldn't draft some guys who couldn't guard - Because the NBA drafts on defensive ability .... or something

*get ready i'm going to talk about zone*
imagine a flexible approach that could minimize defensive shortcomings of a player or two to allow our second-leading scorer (through the first 20 games) to continue being productive and not stripped of all confidence wasting away on the bench - yes such a defense exists. it's the same defense that Oregon and Gonzaga and 13-loss Xavier and shitty So Carolina use to compete. so why not play some zone when Kobis on the floor to maximize the offense and team happiness? i learned this on youtube

boy , with Rawle playing with 3-1/2 fingers against Xavier a confident Kobi sure would have been handy. 29% from three sank our dwindling chances

RiseAndFire wrote:Any chance that Kobi was ever going to stay evaporated the day Miller decided Kobi didn't fit any more in our one-size-fits-all defense-oriented system. I think it was after the Wash series when he went off on how the NBA wouldn't draft some guys who couldn't guard - Because the NBA drafts on defensive ability .... or something

*get ready i'm going to talk about zone*
imagine a flexible approach that could minimize defensive shortcomings of a player or two to allow our second-leading scorer (through the first 20 games) to continue being productive and not stripped of all confidence wasting away on the bench - yes such a defense exists. it's the same defense that Oregon and Gonzaga and 13-loss Xavier and shitty So Carolina use to compete. so why not play some zone when Kobis on the floor to maximize the offense and team happiness? i learned this on youtube

boy , with Rawle playing with 3-1/2 fingers against Xavier a confident Kobi sure would have been handy. 29% from three sank our dwindling chances

I know you're trolling, but I'll respond semi-seriously. Kobi's issue is that he didn't make the strides other people did. Rawle made noticeable strides is his footwork and closeouts on the perimeter. Kobi was still suffering issues. Trier also got better, if not turning into a stopper.

By the end of the year, Rawle, Trier and Kadeem gave us three competent perimeter defenders who progressed better than Kobi. Rather than reworking for Kobi alone, I think it's legit to put the onus on Kobi to rise to the level of the others. He really didn't on either end.

I like it that R&F thinks that playing zone means that certain players don't have to play defense. If a player is constantly missing assignments and not closing out on people in packline man, what evidence is there that he'd all of a sudden be better in a zone?

Chicat wrote:I like it that R&F thinks that playing zone means that certain players don't have to play defense. If a player is constantly missing assignments and not closing out on people in packline man, what evidence is there that he'd all of a sudden be better in a zone?

Agree with you and a zone takes away from a huge asset that this team had in Allen's on ball and perimeter defense. But when Lauri and Dusan are getting eaten alive in the paint it would have been nice to at least have that option to go zone.

This year's team was like a donut: nothing in the middle. Sure, we had size but certainly no rim protection. When Keanu Pinder, who didn't even play several games this season, is your leading shot blocker that's a problem. Ristic cannot be anything more than a 20 minute a game player at most. Because of our offensive limitations on the perimeter this season, Dusan really became a good offensive option. But his lack of mobility and athleticism on defense made him a liability. I think everyone can spot that. Hopefully Chance can continue to progress and improve much the way Jordan Bell blossomed at Oregon. Comanche improved greatly and continues to have a high ceiling. His footwork and strength need improvement.

Chicat wrote:I like it that R&F thinks that playing zone means that certain players don't have to play defense. If a player is constantly missing assignments and not closing out on people in packline man, what evidence is there that he'd all of a sudden be better in a zone?

Especially missing assignments. If you can't figure out man principles, (some of which are essentially guard your man and move your feet) zone isn't exactly less complicated.

A lot of R+F's post boil down to thinking zone is easier. People don't have to run and get tired and stuff. When in actuality, good zone teams expect a constant defensive stance and movement.

Finally, we were a better offensive team than defensive team, but KenPom has us at 28th nationally. It isn't like we were getting gutted on D.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

Chicat wrote:I like it that R&F thinks that playing zone means that certain players don't have to play defense. If a player is constantly missing assignments and not closing out on people in packline man, what evidence is there that he'd all of a sudden be better in a zone?

Especially missing assignments. If you can't figure out man principles, (some of which are essentially guard your man and move your feet) zone isn't exactly less complicated.

A lot of R+F's post boil down to thinking zone is easier. People don't have to run and get tired and stuff. When in actuality, good zone teams expect a constant defensive stance and movement.

Finally, we were a better offensive team than defensive team, but KenPom has us at 28th nationally. It isn't like we were getting gutted on D.

That is it in a nutshell. Anyone can hide a player in a zone. But is their zone any good? Most zones are not good. Most zones are capitulations, and knowingly give up certain things...even the best...because it is better than giving up everything. A zone takes you out of natural boxing out technique, and makes it murder to run. A less-than-good zone is asking to be destroyed, and you have to count all the offensive rebounds off the zone as part of the scoring against the zone...there is no way to tell exactly how many were due to the zone vs just being effort plays, but you have to consider the scoring off put backs against a zone as part of the danger of playing a zone.

With limited coaching time and with top athletes, it is always a better chance to keep teaching effective man to man than to hope your team morphs into a great zone player. I would LOVE to have some switch up zones like Lute used to use, but that is harder in the one/two year player environment. Still, I would love to see us be able to come out of a time out in a zone to just fuck with the opposition set play. I would love to see us switch suddenly in the middle of a momentum run, even for a single possession. But being a zone primary team, or even a team that uses zone regularly, is an admission of man failure and gives up perimeter shooting and O boards. No thanks.

gumby wrote:I'm of two minds on Lauri. Love to have him, but it's become so clear to me that guards are vital. The stronger we are there, the better our chances.

Look at Gonzaga. Lost Sabonis and Wiltjer. Then got better, because of the upgrade at guard with Williams-Goss and Mathews (plus Perkins and Melson improved).

So I'm sorta thinking we have the frontcourt necessary without LM, but it's the guards where we need to improve. Without Trier, we're nothing special there. Even with him, they all need to be better.

My counter argument to that is, can't a Lauri make the guards better? Specifically, contemplating our presumed "weakness" at point guard. A good 4 or 5 makes a point guard a lot better/more dangerous. Yes, we have Ayton, but 2>1, especially when the one is proven and the two of them means less floor time for Ristic. Not sure if you are saying this in the context of only being able to chose one to stay, or if you think we are better off without LM period. If it's one vs the other, I'm still picking LM, Alkins can be our bulldog/go getter on the wing.

In terms of Gonzaga, I dont think that is the reason they had a better season. I see it as: they lost two great players, an average player, and a role player. They gained four really good to great players (Karnowsky returned from injury, Williams-Goss, Matthews, Williams), brought in a very good freshman, and a lot of the key pieces who returned improved greatly.

I, for one, don't know if i'm coming or going, let alone any of the BB players. This train I'm sitting on is already 1:45 late pulling out.

And just as i hit sibmit, we started moving.

Spaceman Spiff wrote: People don't have to run and get tired and stuff. When in actuality, good zone teams expect a constant defensive stance and movement.

We were telling him this months back. The only time I ever preferred zone over man is if I had to guard a guy who was extremely active off ball and I was constantly chasing him from sideline to sideline and having to deal with down screens/screens in general. A Ray Allen type. Of course, by the time you are sucking wind on the bench, so is he.

There's a press conference tomorrow, if I had to guess probably some declarations.

So if Kobi is 147% gone, he should hire an agent and not mess around right?

rgdeuce wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote: People don't have to run and get tired and stuff. When in actuality, good zone teams expect a constant defensive stance and movement.

We were telling him this months back. The only time I ever preferred zone over man is if I had to guard a guy who was extremely active off ball and I was constantly chasing him from sideline to sideline and having to deal with down screens/screens in general. A Ray Allen type. Of course, by the time you are sucking wind on the bench, so is he.

Yeah, UCLA used Alford like this, and I agree that's the only situation where man is more taxing. If you don't have a man that the opposition is trying to run off screens, the amount of movement you don in man and zone should be similar.

Kobi had issues defensively (in my opinion) because he had a continual issue about getting lazy with his feet. He would be lazy on closeouts and help and recover or defend for the first few feet of penetration and then not finish. You still have to close out and help and recover a lot in zone.

The only way a zone really "hides" someone is if they're in foul trouble and you need to keep the other team from isolating them. Other than that, you still have to work. It doesn't do you any good to mix in zone if you play a terrible zone.

Main Event wrote:There's a press conference tomorrow, if I had to guess probably some declarations.

Hopefully two, and those will stay the only two.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

Main Event wrote:There's a press conference tomorrow, if I had to guess probably some declarations.

Hopefully two, and those will stay the only two.

Seems pretty early. The date to declare by is still 4 weeks out.

With the new rules, you can declare and still come back by mid May.

Maybe it's to announce that somebody is staying.

Main Event wrote:There's a press conference tomorrow, if I had to guess probably some declarations.

What time?

10:00 am local time

Longhorned wrote:Maybe it's to announce that somebody is staying.

I doubt anyone staying would announce. That would take away from the people declaring, who we should be celebrating. (From the AD perspective.) I'm guessing the only players present will be there to announce they are declaring.

Merkin wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

Main Event wrote:There's a press conference tomorrow, if I had to guess probably some declarations.

Hopefully two, and those will stay the only two.

Seems pretty early. The date to declare by is still 4 weeks out.

With the new rules, you can declare and still come back by mid May.

If it's without an agent or someone who is 100% gone, no reason to delay. That just increases your ability to get feedback on draft stock.

I'd hope Kobi and Lauri leave and that's all. Trier, if he goes, I'd hope it's without an agent.

prh wrote:

Longhorned wrote:Maybe it's to announce that somebody is staying.

I doubt anyone staying would announce. That would take away from the people declaring, who we should be celebrating. (From the AD perspective.) I'm guessing the only players present will be there to announce they are declaring.

I got a leaked announcement that will be read by Keanu Pinder:

Thank you for your attention. I'm here before you all to announce my intention to return to Arizona for our title run in 2018. I also want to direct shame to any of my non-graduating teammates considering abandoning our title run for a jump to the NBA. Any such thoughts should be buried at the bottom of a dry lake, which should then be filled with ass milk. It's time for us to be like all those other programs where future NBA players return to bring glory upon us. Thank you.

EVCat wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

Chicat wrote:I like it that R&F thinks that playing zone means that certain players don't have to play defense. If a player is constantly missing assignments and not closing out on people in packline man, what evidence is there that he'd all of a sudden be better in a zone?

Especially missing assignments. If you can't figure out man principles, (some of which are essentially guard your man and move your feet) zone isn't exactly less complicated.

A lot of R+F's post boil down to thinking zone is easier. People don't have to run and get tired and stuff. When in actuality, good zone teams expect a constant defensive stance and movement.

Finally, we were a better offensive team than defensive team, but KenPom has us at 28th nationally. It isn't like we were getting gutted on D.

That is it in a nutshell. Anyone can hide a player in a zone. But is their zone any good? Most zones are not good. Most zones are capitulations, and knowingly give up certain things...even the best...because it is better than giving up everything. A zone takes you out of natural boxing out technique, and makes it murder to run. A less-than-good zone is asking to be destroyed, and you have to count all the offensive rebounds off the zone as part of the scoring against the zone...there is no way to tell exactly how many were due to the zone vs just being effort plays, but you have to consider the scoring off put backs against a zone as part of the danger of playing a zone.

With limited coaching time and with top athletes, it is always a better chance to keep teaching effective man to man than to hope your team morphs into a great zone player. I would LOVE to have some switch up zones like Lute used to use, but that is harder in the one/two year player environment. Still, I would love to see us be able to come out of a time out in a zone to just fuck with the opposition set play. I would love to see us switch suddenly in the middle of a momentum run, even for a single possession. But being a zone primary team, or even a team that uses zone regularly, is an admission of man failure and gives up perimeter shooting and O boards. No thanks.

That's exactly what I'd like to see, EV. Having the zone as a situational tool to disrupt the other team, kind of like blitzing in football. But zone too much and it becomes predictable and easier to beat than a good man to man.

prh wrote:

Longhorned wrote:Maybe it's to announce that somebody is staying.

I doubt anyone staying would announce. That would take away from the people declaring, who we should be celebrating. (From the AD perspective.) I'm guessing the only players present will be there to announce they are declaring.

They usually have a prominent players returning presser separately.

ChooChooCat wrote:

prh wrote:

Longhorned wrote:Maybe it's to announce that somebody is staying.

I doubt anyone staying would announce. That would take away from the people declaring, who we should be celebrating. (From the AD perspective.) I'm guessing the only players present will be there to announce they are declaring.

They usually have a prominent players returning presser separately.

Just put out a press release and make the player available (to handle questions all at once).

Don't make it a drama.

gumby wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:

prh wrote:

Longhorned wrote:Maybe it's to announce that somebody is staying.

I doubt anyone staying would announce. That would take away from the people declaring, who we should be celebrating. (From the AD perspective.) I'm guessing the only players present will be there to announce they are declaring.

They usually have a prominent players returning presser separately.

Just put out a press release and make the player available (to handle questions all at once).

Don't make it a drama.

Yeah that's what they did when Rondae/Ashley/Zeus returned all those years back and with Trier last year.