Bear Down Wildcats

Ayton last night and trier tonight and AZ still wins...solid PG play on this years team is the difference.

i hope so much it sticks around, would be a fun march if it does.

rgdeuce wrote:

catgrad97 wrote:Dude seriously presses in the form of ballhogging at the worst possible times.

Rawle wasn't much better tonight under pressure, but seriously: Neither of our starting wings have exactly stepped up and shown leadership in the clutch this season.

And that's dangerous, especially if their petty little infighting gets personal and they stop feeding Ayton.

Man, Trier has been clutch all year for us. Big shots, gets to the foul line in the clutch, makes his foul shot in the clutch. He may be the best closer in college basketball. And even in an off night, how many free throws does he get his teammates when the fouls he picks up helps push us in the bonus and double bonus that much quicker. Teams have to know where Trier is at all times too, just like an Ayton. Thats a constant stress on a defense.

We've been saying all this for more than a year now. He's got to rise above that Xavier performance that had us all second-guessing and his selfishness around Rawle.

He's got to show he can do what PJC did tonight: Make a clear difference between winning and losing a basketball game where he hasn't before, and where his team needs him the most to step up.

If that means stepping up in the final possession of a tie/one-point ballgame, taking it to the hoop and at least getting the throws to merit all the hero ball antics, then great.

But this is March. Another sub-20 percent outing from the field delivers a loud and clear message that chip on his shoulder has become an albatross.

catgrad97 wrote:Dude seriously presses in the form of ballhogging at the worst possible times.

Rawle wasn't much better tonight under pressure, but seriously: Neither of our starting wings have exactly stepped up and shown leadership in the clutch this season.

And that's dangerous, especially if their petty little infighting gets personal and they stop feeding Ayton.

Yeah like his failure to dish to Rawle at 15:10 left in the second. He makes one of two at the line where as Rawle has a clean path on a 2on 1. Hit that pass no overtime.

rgdeuce wrote:

catgrad97 wrote:Dude seriously presses in the form of ballhogging at the worst possible times.

Rawle wasn't much better tonight under pressure, but seriously: Neither of our starting wings have exactly stepped up and shown leadership in the clutch this season.

And that's dangerous, especially if their petty little infighting gets personal and they stop feeding Ayton.

Man, Trier has been clutch all year for us. Big shots, gets to the foul line in the clutch, makes his foul shot in the clutch. He may be the best closer in college basketball. And even in an off night, how many free throws does he get heis teammates when the fouls he picks up helps push us in the bonus and double bonus that much quicker. Teams have to know where Trier is at all times too, just like an Ayton. Thats a constant stress on a defense.

Look, I admit I have not been a big Trier fan during his time here.. but I admit he is a complete stud at the line in clutch time. And his offensive production & efficiency overall has been tremendous.

But the best close in college basketball? Not sure where you come up with that. Miller nearly always gives him free reign and puts the ball in his hands when it is tight near the end of a game, and he has struggled MANY times, and his decision making in those situations is frequently AWFUL. So he is a very productive player overall who turns into a bull at crunch time and keeps his head down to our demise at elast as often as not.

He is also an abysmal defender who has severely limited lateral quickness.

I have generally loved Rawle since the day he arrived but he has been abysmal of late. Tonight the 2 of them were godawful.

Watch the tape at the end of the game... Rawle and DeAndre chest bump, while Trier wanders off the court by himself. I don't think he's ever been a great "teammate" and it's the main reason I am not a fan.

I understand he came in with a monster pedigree... but it is dwarfed by what Anton arrived with, and I have never gotten so much as a WHIFF that he has been ANYTHING but a great teammate. Miller has said as much several times. About AYTON.

Preach Harv.

I’m gonna love following Aytons NBA career. Triers, sure i’ll drop in and celebrate the successes but I won’t buy a ticket to go see him, like I do when TJ rolls through town.

So it goes with mercenaries.

Hope trier shakes off his bad games this pac-12 tourney.

Harv, I wont disagree with you on some points. My gut tells me youre indeed right about him maybe not being the best teammate. But theres a graphic on the last page that shows that Trier is not even close to being as awful as you are describing him on defense. He has, for the most part, been pretty solid in that department down the stretch. Plus, he always defends well when there are a ton of scouts in the stands and we will be seeing a lot the rest of the way.

Closer, five minutes and under, start naming guys who get the job done more than Trier. It may be a case of you forgetting how big it is to be tied in a 64-64 slugfest with 3:55 left and have Allonzo Trier be able to catch the ball w five seconds in the shot clock and no other good looks, then have him shake a defender, get a step on him, and draw a foul on the floor that results in bonus FT, one that he almost always sinks, followed by the second. Those buckets mean just as much as the ones in the last 30 seconds. Love him or hate him, Trier gets many of our most important buckets in a lot of games.

I agree with all of that Harvey except that Trier is an abysmal defender. He played very very well tonight - far better there than on the offensive side, though he gave himself a low bar. My one big Trier gripe on defense is his inability or reluctance to fight through screens. He must be the easiest guy in the NCAAs to slip on a screen. Maybe second to PJC. And maybe a little slow on close-outs from time to time. But generally I like him on defense, especially on ball.

The comment about him not being a great teammate... that’s why we’re not rioting in Tucson over his exclusion from these awards. Because people think he’s kind of a dick and a loner. Maybe true, maybe not. We’re not in the locker room.

And of course I think Trier is an exceptional closer but no one needs to hear me talk him up more.

Haha I didn’t see that Deuce had basically said everything I wanted to say. Same page.

Dude is not a mercenary. He’s been here three years through thick and thin. Sure his demeanor is not as lovable as Ayton, but he’s not a cancer in any way. He and Rawle May have some issue, but when he gets knocked to the floor, PJC and Dusan and really most of the team come running to pick him up. He had a bad shooting game . . . a rare one. You all were singing the praises of Holiday, but look at his stats—would you call him a cancer for jacking up shots tonight or a ball hog for letting PJC goad him into driving into traffic-filled turnovers? Players have off games, even the best. It doesn’t make them failures, losers, cancers or mercenaries.

Never said he was a cancer, just feel that he looks out for himself first and team second. When he’s off like last night and first half of Xavier or vs Wichita st, it just kills us.

Circumstances probably kept him here longer than he planned.

That’s just my perception and maybe I’m wrong.

He has matured in his game over the last two months and has tempered “hero ball” but when it’s not working like last night, he reverts to form and it’s ugly.

The whole not passing to Rawle with 15:10 left in the second who had a clean lane for a bucket is classic hero ball trier.

He’s good, don’t get me wrong, and I no longer cringe when he keeps jacking shots on a bad night cause I want him to get going.

CalStateTempe wrote: The whole not passing to Rawle with 15:10 left in the second who had a clean lane for a bucket is classic hero ball trier.

I was thinking this morning that if the rest of the game would have played out the same, which it never does, that overtime could have been avoided since Trier missed on one of the FTs, and there was no way Alkins was going to miss. He had a clear lane to the basket.

Not sure it was or wasn't hero ball, but if Ayton was running the court, you know that Trier "probably" would have passed it off.

The dislike for Alkins cost the UA a point, and possibly the game.

But then, UA would have not completely destroyed UCLA in OT, and boy was that worth it! That's what we will remember.

Merkin, that was my thought after the play and free throws, that we were gonna lose a game by one point. Saved you guys my commentary on the in game thread because I was watching on delay.

True game never plays out exact the same, but even so, that one point means UCLA has a differnet end of game strategy and they are trying to close a 3 point deficit in the waning seconds rather than a two.

But so it goes, we got an awesome overtime highlight reel out of ayton and that is part of what makes this games, especially the victories so fun to watch. The ebb and flow of things.

The thing is that watching games from across the country, we see the exact same stuff out of practically every team. So many guys would rather take it into a defender trying to get a foul than to dump off for a layup on a 2-on-1 fast break. Sometimes 3 on 1s. And we see people dribble for 15 seconds before jacking up bad shots constantly.

But it's not just things with Trier. Things like forgetting to pound it down low. Other teams will go stretches without getting it to their star big. Other teams shoot bad threes early in the clock. All the problems we see with our team can also be seen on pretty much every other team in the country.

At the end of the day, I'm thankful we have someone willing to be the killer, since we have been sorely lacking that for many years.

While everyone agrees he should have passed it to Rawle I still want him to be aggressive to the bucket as he's such a good FT shooter.

When he puts his head down and attacks the rim it usually means a good outcome.

His propensity is to not pass in those situations irrespective of who is running with him. And 9 times out of 10 he makes it or is fouled and makes 2. I get the point, I just disagree with the conclusion of what it means. But seriously, should we take a look at Rawle’s decision making throughout the game? I don’t think it holds up under the microscope either. And nobody is calling him a mercenary or not team oriented. Most of these takes on Trier are confirmation bias. You think he’s a mercenary, so every unthrown pass and every missed shot is more evidence that he is. And as far as circumstances keeping him at Arizona, those same circumstances didn’t stop Jarrett or Ashley from bolting . . . among others.

EastCoastCat wrote:While everyone agrees he should have passed it to Rawle I still want him to be aggressive to the bucket as he's such a good FT shooter.

My dad and I email back and forth during the games, and my dad thought that Trier should be pulled after those 2 air balls in a row.

I said no way, he is the only one who can make pressure free throws. No one is better at driving and drawing fouls, when he wants too. And no one is worse at pounding the ball into the ground and hoisting up a terrible 3 point shot when the shot clock expiring.

At the end of the day Trier is by far our best penetrator and best in the open court. Of course there's times that we've all seen a pass to Rawle on a break away could make for an easier bucket, but my god the two are so far apart in their abilities to penetrate and score effectively. I love Trier. I do get frustrated at him not being quite the leader/pump up player we sometimes need, but that's just not him. But, no one should take what he brings for granted, without Trier, this team has no shot, so thankful he got cleared to play in the pac and NCAA tourneys.

ByJoveByJingle wrote:His propensity is to not pass in those situations irrespective of who is running with him. And 9 times out of 10 he makes it or is fouled and makes 2. I get the point, I just disagree with the conclusion of what it means. But seriously, should we take a look at Rawle’s decision making throughout the game? I don’t think it holds up under the microscope either. And nobody is calling him a mercenary or not team oriented. Most of these takes on Trier are confirmation bias. You think he’s a mercenary, so every unthrown pass and every missed shot is more evidence that he is. And as far as circumstances keeping him at Arizona, those same circumstances didn’t stop Jarrett or Ashley from bolting . . . among others.

Fair enough point on confirmatory bias, but I respectfully disagree that this criticism is recent. I’m well documented in this very thread for three seasons in my use of mercenary and mercurial for describing trier.

He’s a more productive jayred Bayless on a team that is expected to go places.

Merkin wrote:

EastCoastCat wrote:While everyone agrees he should have passed it to Rawle I still want him to be aggressive to the bucket as he's such a good FT shooter.

My dad and I email back and forth during the games, and my dad thought that Trier should be pulled after those 2 air balls in a row.

I said no way, he is the only one who can make pressure free throws. No one is better at driving and drawing fouls, when he wants too. And no one is worse at pounding the ball into the ground and hoisting up a terrible 3 point shot when the shot clock expiring.

Again Merkin with a great point and how I’ve come around on trier. So far as dec I would cringe when he’d put a shot up on a cold night.

Since then he’s playing much more in the game letting the game come it him and showing much more maturity and decision making. Now I want him to keep shooting becuaee once he gets going, look out.

WildHolcs wrote:At the end of the day Trier is by far our best penetrator and best in the open court. Of course there's times that we've all seen a pass to Rawle on a break away could make for an easier bucket, but my god the two are so far apart in their abilities to penetrate and score effectively. I love Trier. I do get frustrated at him not being quite the leader/pump up player we sometimes need, but that's just not him. But, no one should take what he brings for granted, without Trier, this team has no shot, so thankful he got cleared to play in the pac and NCAA tourneys.

Very fair point that sums up where I am at with trier.

I would think 100% of the fans are glad Trier is back.

ByJoveByJingle wrote:His propensity is to not pass in those situations irrespective of who is running with him. And 9 times out of 10 he makes it or is fouled and makes 2. I get the point, I just disagree with the conclusion of what it means. But seriously, should we take a look at Rawle’s decision making throughout the game? I don’t think it holds up under the microscope either. And nobody is calling him a mercenary or not team oriented. Most of these takes on Trier are confirmation bias. You think he’s a mercenary, so every unthrown pass and every missed shot is more evidence that he is. And as far as circumstances keeping him at Arizona, those same circumstances didn’t stop Jarrett or Ashley from bolting . . . among others.

I agree with so much of this. To reiterate:

Those 2v1s where he doesn't pass are frustrating, but they're also still usually really productive. When Trier gets to the foul line - good things happen for this team.

Rawle took it 1v3 into the D. PJC did the same. We never call them out for selfish play... wonder why? People have a view of Trier and they confirm it.

If you think it's only been a couple of months since Trier changed his hero ball ways... Well, the stats just don't bear that out. If Trier was on any other team he'd be taking 2-3 more shots a game. Maybe 5 more shots a game. No one in the country is putting up more points on fewer shots, because Trier isn't a chucker or a volume shooter. Never has been. He takes what the D gives (for the most part).

19pts on 11 FGAs average on the season. Ultimate efficiency.

Players that have taken more FGAs per game over a season than Trier, while playing with Trier:

* Gabe York
* Ryan Anderson
* Deandre Ayton

...while Lauri took one fewer than Trier last year.

Nick took more shots his All American season than Trier has in any of his seasons... was Nick a ball hog? Rawle Alkins has a higher usage than Trier this year... is he more of a "hero ball" player than Trier?

The idea that Trier is out there "just getting his" is unfounded.

Merkin wrote:

Sounds like a really selfish player that never thinks of his teammates. /s

The only part of Trier's game I hate (actually it's more of a complaint with Miller) is when we try to run a play at the end of a half or game and just have Trier stand with the ball until time just about runs off and then he launches a shot with no time remaining.... it has never worked.... and you would have thought that Miller would have figured that out by now.

Alieberman wrote:The only part of Trier's game I hate (actually it's more of a complaint with Miller) is when we try to run a play at the end of a half or game and just have Trier stand with the ball until time just about runs off and then he launches a shot with no time remaining.... it has never worked.... and you would have thought that Miller would have figured that out by now.

I'm really curious what the blown end of regulation play was supposed to be last night.

Alieberman wrote:The only part of Trier's game I hate (actually it's more of a complaint with Miller) is when we try to run a play at the end of a half or game and just have Trier stand with the ball until time just about runs off and then he launches a shot with no time remaining.... it has never worked.... and you would have thought that Miller would have figured that out by now.

The worst. Dribble 30ft from basket until 8 left then dribble more and jack a long contested 3 without running any real offense. Turrrible...

In fact, any and all pointless extended dribbling session earns an F-. Biggest problem in his game

6 FGA and 4 assists tonight. Continued to put in effort defensively. Running the offense through the post. He wants to win.

prh wrote:6 FGA and 4 assists tonight. Continued to put in effort defensively. Running the offense through the post. He wants to win.

He never had a chance to get in rhythm. USC was extending their zone. Once we started to dump the ball inside more and penetrate the gaps, there was no need to jack up threes. Trier played well but didn't shoot it great. And that's ok. That's gonna happen. I would like to see him drive the lane a bit more to get to the FT line. But we have this guy named Ayton so he takes priority.

The knock on Trier as a selfish player is that it doesn't come natural for him to move the ball quickly. He's used to surveying the defense and attacking. So he holds the ball too long. But he doesn't shoot too much. Just needs better judgement.

GTFO with the Trier being a mercenary or selfish player talk.

Him and Rawle get along just fine off the court.

I just watched a mid-major tournament in person for a weekend and any of these teams would have killed for a Trier to grab the ball and get it done for them. We have had him for THREE years, getting better EVERY year, and this year we're pairing him with the most talented player in college bball. Not to mention all the chemistry eeyores haven't mentioned that him and Ayton are the closest two of anybody on the team off the court.

Let the two of them cook, watch Rawle toss in some sugar, PJC stir the pot, and DUS bring us home

Let's roll

A forgettable player

Thank you for your effort and your a good kid, but I’m glad you and us are moving on. I’m sorry you got a raw deal with the NCAA over two seasons.

CalStateTempe wrote:A forgettable player

Thank you for your effort and your a good kid, but I’m glad you and us are moving on. I’m sorry you got a raw deal with the NCAA over two seasons.

Trier would be a much different player if Arizona didn't have a subpar point guard. It would change a lot.

He’d still be iso-zo and miss jacked shots. His reputation exceeds his clutchness.

https://www.si.com/nba/2018/03/20/nba-d ... trae-young" target="_blank

If it’s abundantly clear that Trier won’t be drafted, could he return?

I remember seeing him in a few mock drafts.

I think hes still a viable second round pick, but hes not my type of player in the NBA. I think he can have some success coming off the bench in the future, but as far as NBA prospects go, he has a lot of physical limitations to him. That makes him someone I wouldnt be actively targeting, as he isnt my archetype of athlete.

Beachcat97 wrote:https://www.si.com/nba/2018/03/20/nba-d ... trae-young

If it’s abundantly clear that Trier won’t be drafted, could he return?

I'd say less than 0.01% chance, just due to the NCAA issues with his PED usage. He wanted to leave after last season, but missed to much of the season.

If I was his dad, I would recommend he goes back, just to work on his handles to become a better dribbler and passer, since he has a better shot making the league as a combo guard than a true SG.

But in any event, making $100K to play in Spain or Italy would be much better than making $25K in the D/G league in Des Moines.

TucsonClip wrote:I think hes still a viable second round pick, but hes not my type of player in the NBA. I think he can have some success coming off the bench in the future, but as far as NBA prospects go, he has a lot of physical limitations to him. That makes him someone I wouldnt be actively targeting, as he isnt my archetype of athlete.

Trier can play forever in college and he'll always be a small 2 without explosive athleticism in the NBA. His problem is that there are a lot of wings like that. If you're an NBA team, what attribute does he possess that makes you want him over someone else?

Merkin wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote:https://www.si.com/nba/2018/03/20/nba-d ... trae-young

If it’s abundantly clear that Trier won’t be drafted, could he return?

I'd say less than 0.01% chance, just due to the NCAA issues with his PED usage. He wanted to leave after last season, but missed to much of the season.

If I was his dad, I would recommend he goes back, just to work on his handles to become a better dribbler and passer, since he has a better shot making the league as a combo guard than a true SG.

But in any event, making $100K to play in Spain or Italy would be much better than making $25K in the D/G league in Des Moines.

Definitely. People talk about playing overseas as though it’s some kind of burden. Unless you go the Ball route, almost anyplace you go would be more interesting and engaging than the truckstop D-League franchises.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

TucsonClip wrote:I think hes still a viable second round pick, but hes not my type of player in the NBA. I think he can have some success coming off the bench in the future, but as far as NBA prospects go, he has a lot of physical limitations to him. That makes him someone I wouldnt be actively targeting, as he isnt my archetype of athlete.

Trier can play forever in college and he'll always be a small 2 without explosive athleticism in the NBA. His problem is that there are a lot of wings like that. If you're an NBA team, what attribute does he possess that makes you want him over someone else?

Shot creation, which is my #1 skill. But even then, I think he is going to struggle finishing at the rim like he has in college. I think his off the bounce game will play at the next level, but I need him to provide more than that.

Trier began the season with those two 30-point games, and I was thinking we’d finally see what the kid can do over the course of a full season. Now that he’s done, it feels like he never really got to the level at AZ some expected.

He settles for far too many 3s, which is silly when his first step is so quick. He doesn’t need to be a 3 point bomber to make an impact, but he seems afflicted with Steph Curry Syndrome. Why drive when I can try a 35 footer?

I have a hard time imagining him in the NBA. He’s not a good defender and just doesn’t really have enough of an offensive game to make an impact.

Rawle and Trier should come back. For the benefit of their futures in and outside of basketball. But if they leave then so be it. Wont ever care about them again and I am sure they wont ever care about me again. And that goes for every guy after they leave UA. If they arent on the Suns I dont care. It is what it is. Dont wish them harm or bad luck, hope they all do well in life and in basketball, but I wont be following them or care to.

PHXCATS wrote:Rawle and Trier should come back. For the benefit of their futures in and outside of basketball. But if they leave then so be it. Wont ever care about them again and I am sure they wont ever care about me again. And that goes for every guy after they leave UA. If they arent on the Suns I dont care. It is what it is. Dont wish them harm or bad luck, hope they all do well in life and in basketball, but I wont be following them or care to.

Rawle is popping up higher on mock drafts than Trier.

Beachcat97 wrote:

PHXCATS wrote:Rawle and Trier should come back. For the benefit of their futures in and outside of basketball. But if they leave then so be it. Wont ever care about them again and I am sure they wont ever care about me again. And that goes for every guy after they leave UA. If they arent on the Suns I dont care. It is what it is. Dont wish them harm or bad luck, hope they all do well in life and in basketball, but I wont be following them or care to.

Rawle is popping up higher on mock drafts than Trier.

Ive always thought Rawle would be the safer prospect, assuming he improved defensively. Well, he hasnt, at all, and he actually regressed overall this season.

Beachcat97 wrote:

PHXCATS wrote:Rawle and Trier should come back. For the benefit of their futures in and outside of basketball. But if they leave then so be it. Wont ever care about them again and I am sure they wont ever care about me again. And that goes for every guy after they leave UA. If they arent on the Suns I dont care. It is what it is. Dont wish them harm or bad luck, hope they all do well in life and in basketball, but I wont be following them or care to.

Rawle is popping up higher on mock drafts than Trier.

Good for him if he wants to leave. I do think though that he best play is to stay in school at least another year and learn some skills and things that will help after basketball because I dont see him as a long term NBA player. But I dont know everything going on with him and if he wants to go, so be it.

Rawle has a better build than Trier, so more upside I imagine.

But what terrible handles and never could get a good looking shot.

TucsonClip wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote:

PHXCATS wrote:Rawle and Trier should come back. For the benefit of their futures in and outside of basketball. But if they leave then so be it. Wont ever care about them again and I am sure they wont ever care about me again. And that goes for every guy after they leave UA. If they arent on the Suns I dont care. It is what it is. Dont wish them harm or bad luck, hope they all do well in life and in basketball, but I wont be following them or care to.

Rawle is popping up higher on mock drafts than Trier.

Ive always thought Rawle would be the safer prospect, assuming he improved defensively. Well, he hasnt, at all, and he actually regressed overall this season.

When he was on the ball defending I thought he did alright. Did great vs Travis at Stanford thats for sure. But off the ball he was always getting lost and beat.

Merkin wrote:Rawle has a better build than Trier, so more upside I imagine.

But what terrible handles and never could get a good looking shot.

Yeah. Rawle’s handle is really, really shaky. It’s disappointing, and it’s probably something that’ll bump down his draft position. He is super athletic, though. I could see him lasting in the NBA for a little while, especially if his shot and handle improve.