Final Four suddenly a possibility Arizona?

Daryl Zero · Post by **Daryl Zero** » Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:41 am

gumby wrote:I've never found the path to a Santa Clara explanation. It was because it was a second slap that it was do bad. That team was better than the 1999 team, and Oklahoma 99 was better than Clara 93.

Completely agree. That Santa Clara loss was so bad I would even contemplate that there was something wrong behind the scenes (whether it be with the team or with someone deciding to throw the game).

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:57 am

gumby wrote:I've never found the path to a Santa Clara explanation. It was because it was a second slap that it was do bad. That team was better than the 1999 team, and Oklahoma 99 was better than Clara 93.

It was the 2nd slap, but the same team. There was no time to re-tool, to get guards in there in one year. Damon was still too young. And every time I watch that game, I see McLean streaking down the right side and think "was there time for Damon to fire one to him?"

But 92 and 93 go together in my mind as the highly ranked regular season team that didn't have the backcourt play to make it in the new NCAA Tournament where physical play going unabated helped eliminate the big man and speed and shooting became key.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:23 am

EVCat wrote:
gumby wrote:I've never found the path to a Santa Clara explanation. It was because it was a second slap that it was do bad. That team was better than the 1999 team, and Oklahoma 99 was better than Clara 93.
It was the 2nd slap, but the same team. There was no time to re-tool, to get guards in there in one year. Damon was still too young. And every time I watch that game, I see McLean streaking down the right side and think "was there time for Damon to fire one to him?"

But 92 and 93 go together in my mind as the highly ranked regular season team that didn't have the backcourt play to make it in the new NCAA Tournament where physical play going unabated helped eliminate the big man and speed and shooting became key.

We had better guards, forwards and Bigs than Santa Clara. 24-4, 17-1, but didn't have time to retool? Were you thinking that a tipoff? "Oh, this is just too soon." Or is that something you came up with in retrospect? We went on something like a 23-0 run midway through, and then Pffft! Just a nightmare. Steve Nash was 1-7 from the field, so that doesn't explain it. Stoudamire/Reeves, 2-16. Outrebounded 50-36 to a smaller team. We had Blair, Stokes, Owes. So it wasn't like E. Tenn. St, which beat us with threes. We shot 17 for 55.

We were first in the Pac-12. They were third in the WCC. Lost 12 games. Lost to UC Davis, UC Irvine, San Jose State. Lost to Gonzaga (before it was Gonzaga) by 31!

Nightmare.

It was a massive upset. You don't get a 2 seed unless you are very good. Stoudamire, Reeves, Mills. Plenty on the perimeter. Mills was POY in conference, just as Terry was, but had much more around him.

One embarrassing first rounder? OK. Two in a row? You're now the poster team for March Madness upsets. I was sick. It's now one of ESPN's "classic" upsets. I never hear references to the 1999 defeat.

The 1999 team had zero returning starters and started two freshmen. Overachieved. Beat my expectations. But I wasn't especially crushed when they lost to another big conference school. It wasn't talked about a lot outside of Tucson and Norman.

Damn, now I'm depressed.

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:30 am

Without a doubt we should have won. I am not saying that at all. We were a 2 seed. I think you have twisted my point, which is I look at 92 and 93 as one big fucked period.

I consider the flaws that allowed 1992 to happen to still be present in 1993, in retrospect. Both games were horrible, and were major upsets, and there is no excuse for us losing them. All I am saying is I lump the two together in one era of "not yet re-tooled". Lute noted as much in retrospect...that the game in the tournament specifically had changed and he had to change with it. 92 and 93 are a small "era" where we got slapped by two teams we should have crushed.

Nowhere do I say we should have lost. Simply I, like probably you and others, lump the two years together as a nightmare. And Lute re-tooled to be more back-court dominant off of those two games, and said as much. Doesn't mean we should have lost either one. But I don't really regard the ETSU loss as explainable, either, no matter how "athletic" they were. We should have crushed that team, too. Or at least beat them like we did in the regular season.

That was right in the wheelhouse of my time in school. Don't mistake me lumping the two together as the era before the "point guard U" backcourt dominant era started as saying there was an excuse for losing. I just, in retrospect, see what happened. We were not built for tournament play as it had changed. Doesn't mean we should have lost...but we did. And there was a factor that led to it happening twice in a row. Lightning didn't just randomly strike us two years in a row. We were built for the regular season, but the tournament was officiated different, and guards became dominant. That's just known. 1999 kicked my ass because it seemed to come out of nowhere. 1992 and 1993 almost killed me. 1993 required replacement of every light on my condo stairwell (stupid). 1993 left a man (albeit a 21 year old man) in tears. But I still seen 1992 and 1993 as a similar path you could figure out after the fact, which was my point.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:41 am

After the fact, OK. I thought you meant at the time the game was played.

4 seeds have lost 20 times (OU beat the 5 seed, too). 2 seeds have lost four times.

Jefe · Post by **Jefe** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:14 pm

Junior · Post by **Junior** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:52 pm

The court for the Final Four is absolutely gorgeous!

97cats · Post by **97cats** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:07 pm

thrilled to say, four months ago i made a impulsive decision at my desk one morning and bought a flight, booked a hotel, and secured tickets all at once for the Final Four.

at the time i didnt think Arizona had a great shot to make it to Phx.

i was doing it more for the experience -- the Final Four is one of the only sporting events ive never attended -- in addition to the party and seeing family and friends.

im one successful weekend in San Jose from having that all change.

Alieberman · Post by **Alieberman** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:27 pm

97cats wrote:thrilled to say, four months ago i made a impulsive decision at my desk one morning and bought a flight, booked a hotel, and secured tickets all at once for the Final Four.

at the time i didnt think Arizona had a great shot to make it to Phx.

i was doing it more for the experience -- the Final Four is one of the only sporting events ive never attended -- in addition to the party and seeing family and friends.

im one successful weekend in San Jose from having that all change.

Thanks for getting me a ticket. That was really nice

azcat49 · Post by **azcat49** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:34 pm

Got 4 tickets myself. Never thought I might get to see my cats and trying to put that out of my mind so as not to be disappointed. It is a bucket list experience for sure

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:41 pm

I told myself if we ever got the Final Four locally, no way I would miss.

Have been working o ut the details to secure tickets today. Am afraid the market might jump if we win Thursday and then again Saturday, and I want to go no matter what.

For those who want to go to a Championship game and don't get tickets? If we aren't in it? Just go to the stadium. NCAA Championship tickets are about the easiest big game ticket to get. Bought under face for both Final Fours I have been to. Kind of like Elite Eight tickets...I remember in 2011, the lower bowl was getting 4 figures for SDSU's first appearance in a S16. I went out with S16 ticket in hand but no E8 (the owner of the set was not able to do the 1st game)...when SDSU lost, I went to the concourse and got an E8 ticket for $50

Jefe · Post by **Jefe** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:52 pm

Bought my 4 tickets last August. Never been to a Final 4 so Im going no matter what! Unless its South Carolina vs Butler/Purdue

Has anyone gotten the actual tickets? I was told to just bring my credit card I paid with or download the Flash Seats app to get in. They are apparently mailing souvenir tickets after the tournament is over.

I did get an envelope a couple weeks ago with Final Four Fan Fest tickets, TipOff Tailgate tickets and a voucher for a Final Four program guide

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:52 pm

97cats wrote:thrilled to say, four months ago i made a impulsive decision at my desk one morning and bought a flight, booked a hotel, and secured tickets all at once for the Final Four.

at the time i didnt think Arizona had a great shot to make it to Phx.

i was doing it more for the experience -- the Final Four is one of the only sporting events ive never attended -- in addition to the party and seeing family and friends.

im one successful weekend in San Jose from having that all change.

If Arizona makes it, do you mind letting me sleep in the tub?

97cats · Post by **97cats** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:57 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote: If Arizona makes it, do you mind letting me sleep in the tub?

i actually have a HUGE weekend planned already -- get in first thing Saturday morning and am staying at the W in downtown Scottsdale, have the best table at the pool for Sunday Funday, and have reservations at City Hall Sunday night.

im in a corner suite so im sure there will be plenty of shenanigans and people crashing on the floor and everywhere else if Arizona makes it.

so short answer, if Arizona sweeps San Jose come one come all, Jonny G will be front and center for a party you wont want to miss.

Go Cats!!

azgreg · Post by **azgreg** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:59 pm

baconus66 · Post by **baconus66** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:17 pm

Thats a shockingly great floor

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:48 pm

They totally should have placed Mel Sharples' portrait in center court.

killervibe · Post by **killervibe** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:14 pm

Probably no surprise to anyone here.. but I refuse to get my hopes up. On paper, we have the best match-up of the weekend. The only double digit seed left in the tourney. However, this team struggles with the zone and Xavier has been effective with few different zones that could give the team fits if they can't make shots from behind the arch. So we could definitely lose the first game.

I', grateful we don't play 4 seeded West Virginia in the Sweet 16. Their press is disruptive and I think they have a legit shot at beating Gonzaga. All of the 4 seeds advanced to the Sweet 16. Butler is probably the most dangerous but WV isn't far behind. During the regular season they beat Baylor (ranked #1 at the time) by 21 points and Kansas by 16 points. So this team is legit. It won't be a cake walk for Arizona regardless.

Plus, these are big games against good teams and Sean struggles to get his teams ready to play in these scenarios. Hopefully he proves me wrong.

HiCat · Post by **HiCat** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:14 pm

NCAA Tournament odds: Arizona the third-best team in the Sweet Sixteen?

Jason Bartel Mar 21, 2017, 4:15pm PDT

According to Bovada, Arizona is now tied as the third-favorite to win it all with the Gonzaga Bulldogs.

Evan Daniels agrees with the oddsmakers. He re-seeded the field, and has Arizona third overall behind the Kansas Jayhawks and North Carolina Tar Heels.

Here’s what he wrote about the Wildcats:

(see link for info/ odds)

The Wildcats have won 11 of their last 12 games, including their NCAA tournament games against North Dakota and Saint Mary’s. Sean Miller has a well-balanced group and arguably the best shooting team he’s had at Arizona, with four players shooting better than 40 percent from three. The Wildcats also rank No. 4 in three-point percentage of the teams remaining. Lauri Markkanen has been tough for opposing teams to defend, and that hasn’t stopped in the tournament, as he’s scored a combined 36 points in the two wins.

If the event were being re-seeded, I’d bump the Wildcats up to a No. 1 seed. A scrappy Saint Mary’s team tested them, but they held on during the same round that Villanova, Louisville and Duke did not. They don’t necessarily have an easy road, but my prediction is that Sean Miller makes his first Final Four. First things first, though, Arizona’s Sweet 16 matchup is an intriguing one that puts Sean Miller against his former school, an overachieving Xavier team.

Yes, that’s him predicting Arizona makes the Final Four at this point. It doesn’t seem like he thinks

http://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketball ... vegas-line" target="_blank

prh · Post by **prh** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:21 pm

killervibe wrote:Probably no surprise to anyone here.. but I refuse to get my hopes up. On paper, we have the best match-up of the weekend. The only double digit seed left in the tourney. However, this team struggles with the zone and Xavier has been effective with few different zones that could give the team fits if they can't make shots from behind the arch. So we could definitely lose the first game.

I', grateful we don't play 4 seeded West Virginia in the Sweet 16. Their press is disruptive and I think they have a legit shot at beating Gonzaga. All of the 4 seeds advanced to the Sweet 16. Butler is probably the most dangerous but WV isn't far behind. During the regular season they beat Baylor (ranked #1 at the time) by 21 points and Kansas by 16 points. So this team is legit. It won't be a cake walk for Arizona regardless.

Plus, these are big games against good teams and Sean struggles to get his teams ready to play in these scenarios. Hopefully he proves me wrong.

Isn't that what he's been doing the last two weeks?

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:32 pm

prh wrote:
killervibe wrote:Probably no surprise to anyone here.. but I refuse to get my hopes up. On paper, we have the best match-up of the weekend. The only double digit seed left in the tourney. However, this team struggles with the zone and Xavier has been effective with few different zones that could give the team fits if they can't make shots from behind the arch. So we could definitely lose the first game.

I', grateful we don't play 4 seeded West Virginia in the Sweet 16. Their press is disruptive and I think they have a legit shot at beating Gonzaga. All of the 4 seeds advanced to the Sweet 16. Butler is probably the most dangerous but WV isn't far behind. During the regular season they beat Baylor (ranked #1 at the time) by 21 points and Kansas by 16 points. So this team is legit. It won't be a cake walk for Arizona regardless.

Plus, these are big games against good teams and Sean struggles to get his teams ready to play in these scenarios. Hopefully he proves me wrong.
Isn't that what he's been doing the last two weeks?

They aren't big games because we won. If we had lost, they would have been big games. Same thing with Xavier. Win, not a big game. Loss, big game.

killervibe · Post by **killervibe** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:42 pm

prh wrote: Isn't that what he's been doing the last two weeks?

Do you consider North Dakota State and St Mary's to be good teams? I don't. SS is correct to an extent, had we lost I would have chalked it up to Sean's inability to win important games, however, because the teams were terrible, I expected we would win regardless of the venue. If Sean can't beat inferior teams then we have an entirely different problem on our hands. Thankfully he's shown very convincingly that he can.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:45 pm

killervibe wrote:
prh wrote: Isn't that what he's been doing the last two weeks?
Do you consider North Dakota State and St Mary's to be good teams? I don't. SS is correct to an extent, had we lost I would have chalked it up to Sean's inability to win important games, however, because the teams were terrible, I expected we would win regardless of the venue. If Sean can't beat inferior teams then we have an entirely different problem on our hands. Thankfully he's shown very convincingly that he can.

UCLA, Oregon are within 2 weeks too. St. Mary's wasn't a top 20 Kenpom team for nothing, either.

jsbowl16 · Post by **jsbowl16** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:48 pm

I don't want to see WVU at all but if we have to play them I think I would rather play them on Thursday than Saturday. Multiple days of prep to face their press would be much better than one day. Hopefully Gonzaga can knock them off and we beat Xavier to setup the rematch.

killervibe · Post by **killervibe** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:51 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
UCLA, Oregon are within 2 weeks too. St. Mary's wasn't a top 20 Kenpom team for nothing, either.

Yes, I already gave props to Sean for winning those games. He's still under .500 even with those wins but they were very sweet and I was grateful he was able to make it happen. My point has always been about consistency. I've never said he can't win big games, he's capable and has won some great games. My point is that he hasn't been able to consistently win them. I define consistency in this case as having a 60%+ win percentage. Its arbitrary but I think realistic for an elite program with a coach that is considered to be elite. Look.. I wish him the very best and hope he proves me wrong.. over and over again.=)

He's compared to Mark Few (and vice versa) for a good reason. Both have won a lot of games and built (or restored) great programs to become elite programs. But both struggle to win the big ones that count the most. I hope one of them will break through this year.

prh · Post by **prh** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:24 pm

The problem is that your selectivity of what constitutes a big game is entirely arbitrary, and the actual selections are pretty worthless for the purpose of this topic (except for proving your strange argument). We've hashed that over before, but now you are conflating big games for playing good teams, and your definition of good teams is not at all relative to our team. Even above, you ask if they are good teams, which is a different answer than if they are big games. Every tournament game is by definition a big game. The ones "that count the most" -- well every tournament game counts more than a regular season game. I'm sure Duke fans would prefer they didn't lose to Mercer or Lehigh.

97cats · Post by **97cats** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:47 pm

its been a good draw this year for AZ however Coach Miller has won many big games while at AZ -- PAC 12 Coach three times in seven years.

He's 19-9 in the NCAA Tournament, if he gets to 21 this year this conversation doesn't exist anymore.

im gonna let it play out.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:48 pm

killervibe wrote:
Plus, these are big games against good teams and Sean struggles to get his teams ready to play in these scenarios. Hopefully he proves me wrong.

who the fuck is this clown?

Arizona was able to get this fortunate road in the NCAA tourney solely due to the fact his team was ready to play in big games prior to the tournament. If he didn't his team would be a 3 seed playing against Kentucky in Memphis or playing against Michigan in Kansas City.

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:43 pm

I like the idea of KV sitting back, taking a sip of his cold bland coffee, and smugly nodding his head after we win a national championship and thinking to himself, "Well Sean, I guess you've proven me wrong . . . for now. Now go do it again so I know this wasn't a fluke you big choker."

Just like I thoroughly enjoyed his reaction to his prediction that this community would wither away being dead wrong.

splitsecond · Post by **splitsecond** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:18 am

It will be interesting to see how they are hanging that center scoreboard / video screen. There are no cross across the top except within the retractable part of the roof itself. seems kind of like a giant waste of money with the scoreboards on both ends that are already in there. They were just updated a couple years ago and sound was updated last year.

dcZONAfan · Post by **dcZONAfan** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:30 am

killervibe wrote:Probably no surprise to anyone here.. but I refuse to get my hopes up. On paper, we have the best match-up of the weekend. The only double digit seed left in the tourney. However, this team struggles with the zone and Xavier has been effective with few different zones that could give the team fits if they can't make shots from behind the arch. So we could definitely lose the first game.

I', grateful we don't play 4 seeded West Virginia in the Sweet 16. Their press is disruptive and I think they have a legit shot at beating Gonzaga. All of the 4 seeds advanced to the Sweet 16. Butler is probably the most dangerous but WV isn't far behind. During the regular season they beat Baylor (ranked #1 at the time) by 21 points and Kansas by 16 points. So this team is legit. It won't be a cake walk for Arizona regardless.

Plus, these are big games against good teams and Sean struggles to get his teams ready to play in these scenarios. Hopefully he proves me wrong.

This is the epitome of handle/post

stop killing the vibe, bro

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:08 am

prh wrote:The problem is that your selectivity of what constitutes a big game is entirely arbitrary, and the actual selections are pretty worthless for the purpose of this topic (except for proving your strange argument). We've hashed that over before, but now you are conflating big games for playing good teams, and your definition of good teams is not at all relative to our team. Even above, you ask if they are good teams, which is a different answer than if they are big games. Every tournament game is by definition a big game. The ones "that count the most" -- well every tournament game counts more than a regular season game. I'm sure Duke fans would prefer they didn't lose to Mercer or Lehigh.

It's not possible to get through to him on this point. I've alredy explicitly told him that the only 1 to 1 big game comparison possible across CBB coaches is tournament record. Miller compares well there.

I stand by tourney games being the fairest metric. Any elimination game is a big game. All tourney games are elimination games.

Go beyond that and subjectivity reigns. Take our 2014 Pac tourney loss to UCLA. It dropped us all the way from a #1 seed in the West to...a #1 seed in the West. KV didn't count our beating USC twice as big wins, but now that SC was a heartbeat from the Sweet 16, they seem a little bigger.

NCAA tourney record is an objective comparison you can use for any CBB coach. Miller does well there. I wouldn't try to use logic with KV.

killervibe · Post by **killervibe** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:50 am

SS - I provided my list. Thus far I've only seen ambiguity and insults in response. If you have a list that you believe better articulates your point, feel free to post it. I love/debating basketball. But I've gotten too old and too busy to indulge in the senseless name calling and insults. That's why I left.

TheBlackLodge · Post by **TheBlackLodge** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:54 am

dcZONAfan wrote:
killervibe wrote:Probably no surprise to anyone here.. but I refuse to get my hopes up. On paper, we have the best match-up of the weekend. The only double digit seed left in the tourney. However, this team struggles with the zone and Xavier has been effective with few different zones that could give the team fits if they can't make shots from behind the arch. So we could definitely lose the first game.

I', grateful we don't play 4 seeded West Virginia in the Sweet 16. Their press is disruptive and I think they have a legit shot at beating Gonzaga. All of the 4 seeds advanced to the Sweet 16. Butler is probably the most dangerous but WV isn't far behind. During the regular season they beat Baylor (ranked #1 at the time) by 21 points and Kansas by 16 points. So this team is legit. It won't be a cake walk for Arizona regardless.

Plus, these are big games against good teams and Sean struggles to get his teams ready to play in these scenarios. Hopefully he proves me wrong.
This is the epitome of handle/post

stop killing the vibe, bro

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:18 am

So this thread got all douched-up too, eh?

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:06 am

killervibe wrote:SS - I provided my list. Thus far I've only seen ambiguity and insults in response. If you have a list that you believe better articulates your point, feel free to post it. I love/debating basketball. But I've gotten too old and too busy to indulge in the senseless name calling and insults. That's why I left.

NCAA tournament record. I had thought that was pretty clear from my post, but there it is. It is a 1 to 1 comparison of Miller to any other coach based on the idea that an elimination game is inherently a big game and controlled for as many variables as possible.

Miller is 19-9. Compare as you wish.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:09 am

Im sorry, but a 19-9 (.678%) tournament record speaks for itself. For comparison sake, Coach K (76.9), Calipari (75), Pitino (74.6), Williams (74.5), Izzo (71.9), Larry Brown (73.1), Self (70.2). All seven are hall of famers (or will be). Most of those guys have been able to pad those winning percentages from coaching in multiple decades at blue blood programs, many when you did not have to deal with the turnover Miller has to deal with. Every other active coach in the NCAA has a lower winning percentage than Miller. Not bad. BTW Lute's winning percentage at Arizona (all games) is 75%, and his tournament winning percentage was 62%.

Lofty · Post by **Lofty** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:46 pm

killervibe wrote:
prh wrote: Isn't that what he's been doing the last two weeks?
Do you consider North Dakota State and St Mary's to be good teams? I don't. SS is correct to an extent, had we lost I would have chalked it up to Sean's inability to win important games, however, because the teams were terrible, I expected we would win regardless of the venue. If Sean can't beat inferior teams then we have an entirely different problem on our hands. Thankfully he's shown very convincingly that he can.

St. Mary's? Absolutely. Better than Xavier.

Lofty · Post by **Lofty** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:47 pm

97cats wrote:its been a good draw this year for AZ however Coach Miller has won many big games while at AZ -- PAC 12 Coach three times in seven years.

He's 19-9 in the NCAA Tournament, if he gets to 21 this year this conversation doesn't exist anymore.

im gonna let it play out.

Exactly.

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:22 pm

rgdeuce wrote:Im sorry, but a 19-9 (.678%) tournament record speaks for itself. For comparison sake, Coach K (76.9), Calipari (75), Pitino (74.6), Williams (74.5), Izzo (71.9), Larry Brown (73.1), Self (70.2). All seven are hall of famers (or will be). Most of those guys have been able to pad those winning percentages from coaching in multiple decades at blue blood programs, many when you did not have to deal with the turnover Miller has to deal with. Every other active coach in the NCAA has a lower winning percentage than Miller. Not bad. BTW Lute's winning percentage at Arizona (all games) is 75%, and his tournament winning percentage was 62%.

Doesn't that really say it all?

Other than K, Cal, Pitino, RoyBoy, Larry Brown, Izzo, and Bill Self, Sean Miller has the highest NCAA win percentage in college basketball? So 8th in active coaches.

That is the definition of a big game winner. Not sure what has more pressure than the NCAA, what might be bigger than the NCAA. No one plays 14 seeds 70% of the time. And outside a list of HOF coaches 7 deep, Miller has the highest percentage of NCAA wins, which includes his time at both Arizona and Xavier, where he was not perennially a 1/2/3 seed?

The rest really is opinion at that point, no?

dcZONAfan · Post by **dcZONAfan** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:30 pm

Holy fuck I want a final four for CSM so badly. Much more than I want it for myself, and I REALLY want it for myself. I think of TJ crying at the end of the game in 2015 and I know half of those tears were because he didn't get coach there.

The Goat · Post by **The Goat** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:18 pm

dcZONAfan wrote:Holy fuck I want a final four for CSM so badly. Much more than I want it for myself, and I REALLY want it for myself. I think of TJ crying at the end of the game in 2015 and I know half of those tears were because he didn't get coach there.

I want one just for this program. So many images stick with me over these losses. JMac on the ground, Rondae slumping after that Decker 3 goes in where he has his hand right in his face, Jamelle walking off with Derrick's arm around his shoulder... Time to stop the pain.

wyo-cat · Post by **wyo-cat** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:43 pm

Lofty wrote:
killervibe wrote:
prh wrote: Isn't that what he's been doing the last two weeks?
Do you consider North Dakota State and St Mary's to be good teams? I don't. SS is correct to an extent, had we lost I would have chalked it up to Sean's inability to win important games, however, because the teams were terrible, I expected we would win regardless of the venue. If Sean can't beat inferior teams then we have an entirely different problem on our hands. Thankfully he's shown very convincingly that he can.
St. Mary's? Absolutely. Better than Xavier.

St. Mary's is a tough match up for us and most teams. They are/were the worst match up in our bracket other than Zaga.

killervibe · Post by **killervibe** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:08 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
killervibe wrote:SS - I provided my list. Thus far I've only seen ambiguity and insults in response. If you have a list that you believe better articulates your point, feel free to post it. I love/debating basketball. But I've gotten too old and too busy to indulge in the senseless name calling and insults. That's why I left.
NCAA tournament record. I had thought that was pretty clear from my post, but there it is. It is a 1 to 1 comparison of Miller to any other coach based on the idea that an elimination game is inherently a big game and controlled for as many variables as possible.

Miller is 19-9. Compare as you wish.

Ok, so tournament elimination games it is, which certain seems fair and definitely makes your point. Based on that, his record is 28-11 (72% win rate):

2009/10
Pac 12 Tourney: 0-1

2010/11
Pac 12 Tourney: 2-1
NCAA Tourney: 3-1

2011/12
Pac 12 Tourney: 2-1
NIT: 0-1

2012/13
Pac 12 Tourney: 1-1
NCAA Tourney: 2-1

2013/14
Pac 12 Tourney: 2-1
NCAA Tourney: 3-1

2014/15
Pac 12 Tourney: 3-0
NCAA Tourney: 3-1

2015/16
Pac 12 Tourney: 2-1
NCAA Tourney: 0-1

2016/17
Pac 12 Tourney: 3-0
NCAA Tourney: 2-0

So based exclusively on elimination games, he's proven to be very capable of consistently winning games. Solid argument.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:53 pm

A little more perspective. Since Miller's first NCAA appearance with Arizona in 2011:

------------------------------Seed that beat Duke/....Seed that beat AZ/
------------------------------Highest seed beaten.....Highest seed beaten
-------DUKE---Arizona
2011..2-1.....3-1................5/8.....................3/1
2012..0-1.....DNQ..............15/na
2013..3-1.....2-1................1/3.....................2/11
2014..0-1.....3-1...............14/NA...................2/4
2015..6-0.....3-1...............NA/1....................1/6
2016..2-1.....0-1...............1/12...................11/NA
2017..1-1.....2-0...............7/15...................TBD/7
......14-6....13-5
.......70%....72%
The combined records of teams who beat Duke after beating Duke: 2-4 (both wins Louisville who won National Title)
The combined records of teams who beat Arizona after beating Arizona: 3-4 (UConn won title, Wisky to title game)
Average seed of team that beat Duke= 7.2
Average highest seed beaten by Duke= 7.8
Average seed of team that beat AZ= 3.8 (and that is with Wichita State's ridiculous under-seeding at 11 in 2016)
Average seed of highest seed beaten by Arizona= 5.8

So there it is, Miller has a better winning percentage over the same time frame over Coach K. And that's with the NCAA bending over backwards for Duke and pampering them, the Duke whistle, etc. Not to mention Miller taking over an imploded program with a nearly-bare cupboard, and Coach K continuing his already established powerhouse. We lose to teams who on average are 4 seeds higher than the teams who beat Duke. Also, our best wins in each tournament average out to being 2 seeds higher than who Duke beats. And that's with Duke having a national title run. AZ= 3 elite eights, Duke= 2 elite 8s, one resulting in a championship.

NYCat · Post by **NYCat** » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:58 pm

I don't really care about early exits tbh. Duke has two titles since the new decade and a bunch of early exits. I'll gladly take those two championships. Same with UConn or Florida.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:03 pm

NYCat wrote:I don't really care about early exits tbh. Duke has two titles since the new decade and a bunch of early exits. I'll gladly take those two championships. Same with UConn or Florida.

That post paints multiple pictures, one being, Miller's road has been much tougher than some of the great coaches who have final 4's/titles. UCONN has 2 titles since 2011.. After 2011's title, in the last six seasons: they have missed three tournaments and couldnt get past the round of 32 twice, and won a title in 2014. They finished 16-17 this season. No thanks.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:08 pm

NYCat wrote:I don't really care about early exits tbh. Duke has two titles since the new decade and a bunch of early exits. I'll gladly take those two championships. Same with UConn or Florida.

If anyone knew how to guarantee those results, I think we'd do it.

I would argue Duke has underperformed several years, creating the early exits. UConn is the opposite, vastly overperforming the two years they won.

I will say this, if you made people decide between Sean Miller or Kevin Ollie as a coach, I'd try to lock anyone who picked Ollie up in a nuthouse.

NYCat · Post by **NYCat** » Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:23 pm

rgdeuce wrote:
NYCat wrote:I don't really care about early exits tbh. Duke has two titles since the new decade and a bunch of early exits. I'll gladly take those two championships. Same with UConn or Florida.
That post paints multiple pictures, one being, Miller's road has been much tougher than some of the great coaches who have final 4's/titles.

Yes, completely agree.

Point is when you're a 1 or 2 seed every year, sometimes you'll get upset. They don't really bother me. Sometimes you'll get screwed by the selection committee and sometimes you'll get a golden path. Sometimes you have to create your own luck.

Villanova is also a good example of early exits but having a title.

2014 #2 seed lost vs eventual Champs UConn in Rd of 32
2015 #1 seed lost NC State in Rd of 32
2016 #2 seed won Title
2017 #1 seed lost to massively underseeded Wisconsin team

That one title and 3 early exits are better than the 2 E8s in that same timespan for Arizona. Since Arizona is still playing I'll exclude 2017.

Miller not losing is pretty great however.

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:47 pm

Nice jinx. There was a reason I didn't post in this thread;

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