Bear Down Wildcats

This is a cool idea and I would like to see it implemented, maybe including the other metrics as well, in future seasons.

Thank you for starting this thread, Spiff.

One thing that might make it better would be to continually edit the opening post to have the data after each game in one easy to see and evaluate place.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:We jumped from 99.1 to 98.3 and back into the 60's nationally, continuing a schizo season trend.

I found a tracker!!!

YoDeFoe wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:We jumped from 99.1 to 98.3 and back into the 60's nationally, continuing a schizo season trend.

I found a tracker!!!

That's pretty cool, and nicely supports my point about our bipolar defensive performance this year.

The intensity the cats played in defense the 2nd to last position is something I haven't seen in a long long time.

It's at 72 currently and got beat with the dribble drive penetration and non existent help-side d tonight, hoping this thing doesn't climb into the 80s.

Gave up a lot of easy buckets.

Might be too late into the season if it keeps climbing.

RondaeShimmy wrote:It's at 72 currently and got beat with the dribble drive penetration and non existent help-side d tonight, hoping this thing doesn't climb into the 80s.

Gave up a lot of easy buckets.

Might be too late into the season if it keeps climbing.

The raw # matters more than nationally. We're 98.3, and I suspect this won't help. We've been over 99 before, so we're sort of just stagnant.

92

Ninety two.

Wow

We might catch ASUs d at this rate

Don't really care. We're either going to buckle down come tournament time, or we won't. No sense worrying about conference wins at home without our best perimeter defender...

I'm more worried that after PJC our PG situation could be even worse than now, and it's terrible right now. Yeah, we're scoring points with a generational talent in the paint, but the way that we're scoring does not bode well for the future. We can't even pound the ball inside and feed Ayton consistently for Christ's sake...

qwertyus wrote:Don't really care. We're either going to buckle down come tournament time, or we won't. No sense worrying about conference wins at home without our best perimeter defender...

I'm more worried that after PJC our PG situation could be even worse than now, and it's terrible right now. Yeah, we're scoring points with a generational talent in the paint, but the way that we're scoring does not bode well for the future. We can't even pound the ball inside and feed Ayton consistently for Christ's sake...

I agree on the D. The pieces are there to be better, at least much better than tonight. It will come in March or not.

After PJC, Williams is a legit talent. I think we'll improve there in the long ter.

Story of Miller ball - Points in the paint

Az - 30
CU - 30
http://arizonawildcats.com/documents/20 ... AL_Box.pdf" target="_blank

This is very common, and you can thank packline for that, with Ayton playing most of his defense at the perimeter watching PNR passes whiz past him for layups
Genius!! He'd probably be leading the conference in blocks if he actually defended the paint

Wish Miller would pull his head out of his ass and mix in a defense that actually compliments a massive shotblocking 7ft freak instead of neutralizing him. Maybe in year 15 he'll start "growing". Until then Im afraid any old scrub team that throws out a simple zone can knock off his roster of 5stars

You’re mad the Wildcats won. We get it.

RondaeShimmy wrote:92

Ninety two.

Wow

Fell to 93 by the end of the night.

I disagree with most of rise and fire but that sig is pretty hilarious.

ChooChooCat wrote:

RondaeShimmy wrote:92

Ninety two.

Wow

Fell to 93 by the end of the night.

Not a FF number.

ChooChooCat wrote:

RondaeShimmy wrote:92

Ninety two.

Wow

Fell to 93 by the end of the night.

By Utah of all teams

Chicat wrote:You’re mad the Wildcats won. We get it.

I'm not going to quote him out of respect, but there's a base stupidity about whining about Ayton being drawn to the perimeter. First, the other team gets a say. If they pick and roll off Ayton's man, he has to go to the perimeter.

This actually helps in a way, because every time Ayton is in pick and roll, Dusan isn't. Our issue was horrific back side D. The back side D has to buy Ayton a second to recover, and that was not happening.

Finally, he always comes with zone, but this is dumb. If you don't like Ayton on the perimeter, every zone requires him to be on the perimeter. The only other option requires a lot of movement out of...Dusan, and that makes me cringe.

miller cult-member talks about stupidity, too stupid to understand zone . in what world does zone make Ayton guard the perimeter? he's a 7-ft freak of nature you stick him in the middle of a 2-3 and make Dus come off the bench FFS. Together on the floor they are awful.

sorry Dus, you're a big slow dude and in 4 years you still aren't Aaron Gordon, and Ayton is the #1 pick in the draft, i'm sure you'll understand. Have a seat

this is not hard

funny in the other thread spiff marvels at how RPI 68 CU. gashed us over and over on straight forward pick and rolls (on the way to 30 points in the paint). put 2 and 2 together, Sherlock

We get it. Spiff is too stupid to see how stupid Miller is. And Ayton needs to be in a zone to defend competently, which bodes well for his future in the NBA. Keep contributing. And please explain how a team can guard the arc and the corners in a 2-3 or 3-2 with two men hunkered down in the post.

Rise&Fail wants Pinder to get 30 minutes a game.

Longhorned wrote:We get it. Spiff is too stupid to see how stupid Miller is. And Ayton needs to be in a zone to defend competently, which bodes well for his future in the NBA. Keep contributing. And please explain how a team can guard the arc and the corners in a 2-3 or 3-2 with two men hunkered down in the post.

Washington plays a 2-3 zone exclusively and when i look at the pac-12 3ptdef rankings i see UW is 3rd and Arizona is waaaay down at 10. Most of the other teams above us also play some zone
https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/uw- ... is-season/" target="_blank

can we do much worse than 10th?

Ayton would benefit from some zone for a few obvious reasons, first is to keep him around the rim where he is most effective. second is to spare him from being run ragged doing the silly hedge and recover drill endlessly. did you notice how dog tired he was vs CU? it's not like that was an up and down game

i'm telling you miller is squandering another ridiculously talented roster with this mid-major Bennett-ball BS

I have no idea why you guys even answer that guy, he's best left on ignore like I have him...no reason to waste an entirely good forum on people to dumb to even be good trolls.

I just don’t think he’s a troll. I think he means what he says. And what he says gets said outside this board. I’m trying to figure out if these zone evangelists know about zone defense.

Anybody wants to debate the packline I'm all for it. Anybody that wants to argue that the zone defense is the best possible defense Arizona could run ever is just a blatant moron.

RiseAndFire wrote:did you notice how dog tired he was vs CU? it's not like that was an up and down game

He had strep. But hey, nice try.

ChooChooCat wrote:Anybody wants to debate the packline I'm all for it. Anybody that wants to argue that the zone defense is the best possible defense Arizona could run ever is just a blatant moron.

I think anybody who thinks it couldn't help is silly. Duke is incredibly bad at playing man defense, yet they are 38 freaking spots ahead of us in adjD on Kenpom because they play a bunch of zone. College teams are just generally bad playing against a zone, for example, us.

I don’t have anything against the zone, but R&F is a really bad salesman for it. He wants to bench Dusan when there’s a whole mass of statistics out there showing how dominant our offense is when he and Ayton play together. He thinks Ayton is a shot blocking machine when he never has been. He insists Ayton is dog tired at the end of games without any evidence.

Nah, R&F with Miller is like that Philly Fan dude with TJ or ODogg with Pastner. It will always be something...

Longhorned wrote:I just don’t think he’s a troll. I think he means what he says. And what he says gets said outside this board. I’m trying to figure out if these zone evangelists know about zone defense.

hey you wanted an explanation how a zone could defend 3point shooting, and I showed you how the only zone-exclusive team in the P12 is 3rd in that category while we're 10th (in conference play UW is 1st (27%) and we're 8th (36%) . Or how Oregon and CU who both use some zone are both better in that category

No comment?

RiseAndFire wrote:Story of Miller ball - Points in the paint

Az - 30
CU - 30
http://arizonawildcats.com/documents/20 ... AL_Box.pdf" target="_blank

This is very common, and you can thank packline for that, with Ayton playing most of his defense at the perimeter watching PNR passes whiz past him for layups

PITP
Az - 20
UU - 30

Of Utahs scoring almost half their points were guys dunking in our face or layups while Ayton and Ristic watch helplessly from the perimeter. Im tired of explaining stuff so can one of the Miller cult-members explain how a team with a pair of 7 footers (one of which could be #1 in the draft in June) is consistently outscored or equaled in the paint, playing against vastly less-talented players?

RiseAndFire wrote:
hey you wanted an explanation how a zone could defend 3point shooting, and I showed you how the only zone-exclusive team in the P12 is 3rd in that category while we're 10th (in conference play UW is 1st (27%) and we're 8th (36%) . Or how Oregon and CU who both use some zone are both better in that category

No comment?

So your example is to highlight the team with a coach who has studied and perfected the zone under Boeheim for like 20 years? You think any coach can simply bust that out and it will fix the issue of our 3 pt defense? You're a moron

SunnyAZ wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:Anybody wants to debate the packline I'm all for it. Anybody that wants to argue that the zone defense is the best possible defense Arizona could run ever is just a blatant moron.

I think anybody who thinks it couldn't help is silly. Duke is incredibly bad at playing man defense, yet they are 38 freaking spots ahead of us in adjD on Kenpom because they play a bunch of zone. College teams are just generally bad playing against a zone, for example, us.

Sorry I should've been more clear, I'm a big proponent of unleashing a zone when the time calls for it like Lute did with his 1-3-1, but I am not a fan of zone being utilized as a base defense.

RiseAndFire wrote:

Longhorned wrote:I just don’t think he’s a troll. I think he means what he says. And what he says gets said outside this board. I’m trying to figure out if these zone evangelists know about zone defense.

hey you wanted an explanation how a zone could defend 3point shooting, and I showed you how the only zone-exclusive team in the P12 is 3rd in that category while we're 10th (in conference play UW is 1st (27%) and we're 8th (36%) . Or how Oregon and CU who both use some zone are both better in that category

No comment?

That was your non-response to my question. You said Ayton should be in a zone defense hunkered down in the paint instead of helping on the perimeter. So I asked you how Arizona can keep two defenders in the post in a 2-3 or a 3-2, and still defend the arc and both corners. Your response was to post numbers that relate to teams who zone and who aren't Arizona, and therefore don't have Ristic and Ayton.

I'm not sure that obvious comment was worth posting, but there you go. And everybody here knows your response doesn't respond to my question, so there's that.

My biggest beef with this team is consistent defensive intensity. We see glimpses every now and then.

Frybry02 wrote:My biggest beef with this team is consistent defensive intensity. We see glimpses every now and then.

Especially at the end when the game is on the line. Defense when the game is on the line is as good as any defense in the country. They need to do that when they're up by double digits. They need to do that when they're tied with tons of game clock left.

99

And we are closing in on the Fitchbucks

Longhorned wrote:

RiseAndFire wrote:

Longhorned wrote:I just don’t think he’s a troll. I think he means what he says. And what he says gets said outside this board. I’m trying to figure out if these zone evangelists know about zone defense.

hey you wanted an explanation how a zone could defend 3point shooting, and I showed you how the only zone-exclusive team in the P12 is 3rd in that category while we're 10th (in conference play UW is 1st (27%) and we're 8th (36%) . Or how Oregon and CU who both use some zone are both better in that category

No comment?

That was your non-response to my question. You said Ayton should be in a zone defense hunkered down in the paint instead of helping on the perimeter. So I asked you how Arizona can keep two defenders in the post in a 2-3 or a 3-2, and still defend the arc and both corners. Your response was to post numbers that relate to teams who zone and who aren't Arizona, and therefore don't have Ristic and Ayton.

I'm not sure that obvious comment was worth posting, but there you go. And everybody here knows your response doesn't respond to my question, so there's that.

In fairness, first you pointed out that his "sit Ristic" idea means approx 30 mpg more of Pinder/Lee. He then dodged that and moved the goalpost.

Then we got to this, and your point is dead on. With Dusan/Ayton together, a 2-3 puts one on the perimeter. By default, it has to be Ayton. A 3-2 means the 2 backline guys have a primary area of responsibility that runs from the basket to freethrow line to the corner 3 in essentially a right triangle.

What R+F (intentionally or uninetentionally) never seems to get is other teams get a say in things. If Arizona comes out in a 3-2 and I'm an opposing coach, I'm running action that is designed to move a shooter to the corner and feature baseline and high low cuts through Dusan's zone. Make him close out the corner, recover to cutters, pass people off and get back without fouling. I.e., I'm attacking the weak features of a defender/defense.

That is what other teams do. There isn't a scheme that effectively makes up for lack of lateral mobility unless we wanted Ayton in the corner in a 2-3. That puts our best rim protector 17 feet out as a starting point.

U.P. Zona Fan wrote:99

And we are closing in on the Fitchbucks

In fairness, I think our performance vs Utah was better than the effect on the AdjD. The offensive fouls simultaneously gave them extra possessions and neutered our D.

We could obviously have been better, but it would have been tough to really perform well given the reffing in the second half.

It’s concerning that the pattern to play lock down bordering on frantic d occurs only with 3 to go in a close game.

Back at 99

I remember hearing somewhere that the recipe for a natty was top 10 adj o, top 20 adj d. so I checked it. The last column is number of teams that year that were in the top 10 adj o and top 20 adj d.

Yr. Champ. Adj o. Adj d. T10o/T20d
17. Unc. 9. 11. 2
16. Nova. 3. 5. 3
15. Duke. 3. 11. 5
14. Uconn. 39. 10. 1
13. Lville. 7. 1. 3
12. Ktucky. 2. 7. 3
11. Uconn. 19. 15. 4
10. Duke. 1. 5. 3
09. Unc. 1. 18. 2
08. Kansas. 2. 1. 4
07. Fla. 1. 13. 4
06. Fla. 3. 7. 4
05. Unc. 2. 5. 3
04. Uconn. 9. 6. 4
03. Cuse. 17. 14. 2
02. Md. 4. 7. 4

So there you have it, 3 outlier years, one of which only 1 team fit the bill.

This year so far only Purdue and michigan st are in that category.

We were in that category in 15 & 03

106

RondaeShimmy wrote:106

Not even close to good enough.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

Longhorned wrote:

RiseAndFire wrote:

Longhorned wrote:I just don’t think he’s a troll. I think he means what he says. And what he says gets said outside this board. I’m trying to figure out if these zone evangelists know about zone defense.

hey you wanted an explanation how a zone could defend 3point shooting, and I showed you how the only zone-exclusive team in the P12 is 3rd in that category while we're 10th (in conference play UW is 1st (27%) and we're 8th (36%) . Or how Oregon and CU who both use some zone are both better in that category

No comment?

That was your non-response to my question. You said Ayton should be in a zone defense hunkered down in the paint instead of helping on the perimeter. So I asked you how Arizona can keep two defenders in the post in a 2-3 or a 3-2, and still defend the arc and both corners. Your response was to post numbers that relate to teams who zone and who aren't Arizona, and therefore don't have Ristic and Ayton.

I'm not sure that obvious comment was worth posting, but there you go. And everybody here knows your response doesn't respond to my question, so there's that.

In fairness, first you pointed out that his "sit Ristic" idea means approx 30 mpg more of Pinder/Lee. He then dodged that and moved the goalpost.

Then we got to this, and your point is dead on. With Dusan/Ayton together, a 2-3 puts one on the perimeter. By default, it has to be Ayton. A 3-2 means the 2 backline guys have a primary area of responsibility that runs from the basket to freethrow line to the corner 3 in essentially a right triangle.

What R+F (intentionally or uninetentionally) never seems to get is other teams get a say in things. If Arizona comes out in a 3-2 and I'm an opposing coach, I'm running action that is designed to move a shooter to the corner and feature baseline and high low cuts through Dusan's zone. Make him close out the corner, recover to cutters, pass people off and get back without fouling. I.e., I'm attacking the weak features of a defender/defense.

That is what other teams do. There isn't a scheme that effectively makes up for lack of lateral mobility unless we wanted Ayton in the corner in a 2-3. That puts our best rim protector 17 feet out as a starting point.

And what you geniuses never seem to get is that nobody is holding a gun to anybodys head making Dusan and Ayton play at the same time. Only in your minds is this a requirement and only an idiot would suggest putting Ayton anywere other than right under the friggin rim. Dusan is a liabilty on defense he is literally a statue he is not Aaron Gordon. He is a liability especially in Man to Man. For every awesome post bucket he gets he gives up just as many on the other end. Make an adjustment and play a 2-3 with Rawle and Randolph/Akot/Pinder/Lee on the wing, especially if the other team is undersized and carving you up like UW with 6'8 Dickerson at center.

Oh Washington, which we all knew was going to be a loss even if their RPI was 50 because they're just another bunch of scrubs (3 star powered by a single 4 star undersized center) playing not just some zone , but zone exclusively lol. So to recap:
- Dusan got eaten alive in the paint (again) by an undersized center
- we got outscored in the paint 44-36 (again)
- we had a pathetic 6 fast break points (thanks pack line)
- and that zone held us to 16% on threes which the miller cult member brain trust here told me was impossible because zones can't stop the 3

Adj D 106, time to mix it up it is obvious that square peg (this roster) is not fitting into the round hole (again)

RiseAndFire wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

Longhorned wrote:

RiseAndFire wrote:

Longhorned wrote:I just don’t think he’s a troll. I think he means what he says. And what he says gets said outside this board. I’m trying to figure out if these zone evangelists know about zone defense.

hey you wanted an explanation how a zone could defend 3point shooting, and I showed you how the only zone-exclusive team in the P12 is 3rd in that category while we're 10th (in conference play UW is 1st (27%) and we're 8th (36%) . Or how Oregon and CU who both use some zone are both better in that category

No comment?

That was your non-response to my question. You said Ayton should be in a zone defense hunkered down in the paint instead of helping on the perimeter. So I asked you how Arizona can keep two defenders in the post in a 2-3 or a 3-2, and still defend the arc and both corners. Your response was to post numbers that relate to teams who zone and who aren't Arizona, and therefore don't have Ristic and Ayton.

I'm not sure that obvious comment was worth posting, but there you go. And everybody here knows your response doesn't respond to my question, so there's that.

In fairness, first you pointed out that his "sit Ristic" idea means approx 30 mpg more of Pinder/Lee. He then dodged that and moved the goalpost.

Then we got to this, and your point is dead on. With Dusan/Ayton together, a 2-3 puts one on the perimeter. By default, it has to be Ayton. A 3-2 means the 2 backline guys have a primary area of responsibility that runs from the basket to freethrow line to the corner 3 in essentially a right triangle.

What R+F (intentionally or uninetentionally) never seems to get is other teams get a say in things. If Arizona comes out in a 3-2 and I'm an opposing coach, I'm running action that is designed to move a shooter to the corner and feature baseline and high low cuts through Dusan's zone. Make him close out the corner, recover to cutters, pass people off and get back without fouling. I.e., I'm attacking the weak features of a defender/defense.

That is what other teams do. There isn't a scheme that effectively makes up for lack of lateral mobility unless we wanted Ayton in the corner in a 2-3. That puts our best rim protector 17 feet out as a starting point.

And what you geniuses never seem to get is that nobody is holding a gun to anybodys head making Dusan and Ayton play at the same time. Only in your minds is this a requirement and only an idiot would suggest putting Ayton anywere other than right under the friggin rim. Dusan is a liabilty on defense he is literally a statue he is not Aaron Gordon. He is a liability especially in Man to Man. For every awesome post bucket he gets he gives up just as many on the other end. Make an adjustment and play a 2-3 with Rawle and Randolph/Akot/Pinder/Lee on the wing, especially if the other team is undersized and carving you up like UW with 6'8 Dickerson at center.

Oh Washington, which we all knew was going to be a loss even if their RPI was 50 because they're just another bunch of scrubs (3 star powered by a single 4 star undersized center) playing not just some zone , but zone exclusively lol. So to recap:
- Dusan got eaten alive in the paint (again) by an undersized center
- we got outscored in the paint 44-36 (again)
- we had a pathetic 6 fast break points (thanks pack line)
- and that zone held us to 16% on threes which the miller cult member brain trust here told me was impossible because zones can't stop the 3

Adj D 106, time to mix it up it is obvious that square peg (this roster) is not fitting into the round hole (again)

Ayton will and should play the majority of the game. So are you suggesting that Dusan should only get 5-10 minutes since they shouldn't play at the same time? The bench players provide no offense and none of them are defensive stoppers to make up for it. While Dusan is very limited defensively, taking him out only makes us worse.

Rise and Fire either:

1. Is a troll.
2. Doesn't watch bench play.
3. Doesn't understand basketball.
4. Hates Miller beyond reason.

Zone D also has principles to execute. It isn't some magic formula that means players don't have to recognize concepts and perform team D principles. If anything, it probably places a higher premium on recognition and execution of team D.

The guys R+F says should supplant Dusan are drawing limited minutes because they don't excel at executing team D principles. Dusan has limited mobility but understands his responsibilities. Lee, Pinder and Akot are obviously more mobile. They don't play more because they don't execute well enough to make that mobility pay off.

So, we'll take three guys who struggle to execute team fundamentals in man, put them in zone and expect they will execute team fundamentals in zone better because...?

Merkin wrote:

Yeah, I read that this early morning here...depressing read and not a good indicator of a deep NCAA run

"We have a couple guys on our team that, I’m going to say there’s 1,100 players that play college basketball, and if you start going fouls per minute played, they’re in the top-25 percent of that," Miller said.

Pinder, 8.8 / 40
Lee, 7.3 / 40
Barcello, 4.9 / 40
Randolph, 4.0 / 40
Smith, 3.8 / 40

Really disappointing the pace at which these guys are picking up fouls. We need one of Pinder and Lee to step up in our front court rotation and neither are playable for significant minutes with those foul rates.

Something to note: while the adjusted defense has trended in the wrong direction recently, that slide corresponds with Rawle's foot discomfort and line-up shuffle.

Here is the trend following Rawle's return game (Alabama):



Very good over that period. And then here is the trend from Rawle's first game held out (at Cal) until now:



Significantly and consistently worse.

If Rawle gets back to good health and we get consistency back to our rotation, I expect that we'll be a much better defensive team than we have been over the last five games and a much better team than the stats show.

YoDeFoe wrote:Something to note: while the adjusted defense has trended in the wrong direction recently, that slide corresponds with Rawle's foot discomfort and line-up shuffle.

Here is the trend following Rawle's return game (Alabama):



Very good over that period. And then here is the trend from Rawle's first game held out (at Cal) until now:



Significantly and consistently worse.

If Rawle gets back to good health and we get consistency back to our rotation, I expect that we'll be a much better defensive team than we have been over the last five games and a much better team than the stats show.

Excellent post. Rawle is probably our best perimeter defender. That isn't necessarily saying much, but he is and I think it's reasonable to suggest his ability is a big driver for our overall D. Guys like Dusan and Parker...they are who they are.

I really dont think Rawle is a good defender, and he hasnt improved much on that end from his freshman year. Although, trying to decide on who our best perimeter defender would be is basically like closing your eyes and pointing at someone.