Who's staying? Who's going?

[Longhorned]

Damn, why would anyone want to coach college ball anymore? How do you know who is actually coming back? This needs to change for the good of the game.

Coaches know in early May. It does cause confusion on who to pursue in the meantime, but it clarifies soon.

Since it seems like a sensible thing to do (why not get assessed?), I wonder why the decision itself requires a formal announcement with rhetorical flourishes. Just go do it.

If you actually do leave, then announce.

I couldn't be more honored to have been posting on this site for these past years. With all of my infinite blessings counted on nearly every finger on both of my hands, I have made the decision to follow this message with further posts.

[PHXCATS]

I have no issue at all with Rawle declaring, just so it is clear. Or Lauri.

[Chicat]

I get that everyone has their own thing and there are family issues and pressures etc. But some of these guys have been huge disappointments off the court and it is frustrating to see.

Who has been a huge disappointment off the court? No one is getting in trouble with the school or the law. So I'm curious as to what you're referring to.

Chance and Kobi with class

Class as in "they'd be more classy if they weren't leaving my favorite team without providing me with four years of entertainment"?

[MountainCat]

2016 Team

Starters
Kadeem - Senior - Gone
Allonzo - Sophomore
Rawle- Declaring
Lauri - Declaring
Dusan - Junior

Bench
Parker - Junior
Kobi - Declaring
Chase - Declaring
Keanu - Junior

Who's to say Allonzo & Dusan won't declare also - if so the entire starting lineup is potentially gone. Where will we be then?

[McKale Midwest]

2016 Team

Starters
Kadeem - Senior - Gone
Allonzo - Sophomore
Rawle- Declaring
Lauri - Declaring
Dusan - Junior

Bench
Parker - Junior
Kobi - Declaring
Chase - Declaring
Keanu - Junior

Who's to say Allonzo & Dusan won't declare also - if so the entire starting lineup is potentially gone. Where will we be then?

... outside of the top 25

[ChooChooCat]

2016 Team

Starters
Kadeem - Senior - Gone
Allonzo - Sophomore
Rawle- Declaring
Lauri - Declaring
Dusan - Junior

Bench
Parker - Junior
Kobi - Declaring
Chase - Declaring
Keanu - Junior

Who's to say Allonzo & Dusan won't declare also - if so the entire starting lineup is potentially gone. Where will we be then?

We'll never make it obviously

Declare means nothing. Only Kobi has hired an agent and we all knew that was the case from the get go...relax.

[PHXCATS]

I get that everyone has their own thing and there are family issues and pressures etc. But some of these guys have been huge disappointments off the court and it is frustrating to see.

Who has been a huge disappointment off the court? No one is getting in trouble with the school or the law. So I'm curious as to what you're referring to.

Chance and Kobi with class

Class as in "they'd be more classy if they weren't leaving my favorite team without providing me with four years of entertainment"?

No as in they should be attending class especially when so much money donated to the university has been for their benefit with their schooling.

[Longhorned]

I get that everyone has their own thing and there are family issues and pressures etc. But some of these guys have been huge disappointments off the court and it is frustrating to see.

Who has been a huge disappointment off the court? No one is getting in trouble with the school or the law. So I'm curious as to what you're referring to.

Chance and Kobi with class

Class as in "they'd be more classy if they weren't leaving my favorite team without providing me with four years of entertainment"?

No as in they should be attending class especially when so much money donated to the university has been for their benefit with their schooling.

You agree to let them stop going to class post-season for no reason when you administer them an athletic scholarship.

[Merkin]

Recalling the UA football program lost some scholies some time back for poor APR, it seems the basketball program is doing quite well now. Don't know how Kobi and Chance not going to class will affect this.

[azcat49]

So declared from the UofA:

LM Defintely gone
KS Same as above
CC Probably gone
Rawle Alkins Just announced. Probably back?
Zo just waiting for the announcement but probably back

Such a love hate relationship I now have with college basketball. Glad I lived through the Lute days where guys stayed 3 or 4 years

[Beachcat97]

Really hoping we get to see this 5 next year:

DA
DR
RA
AT
PJC

That's a top 5 team, especially if Cam Johnson is on the bench.

[Merkin]

Glad I lived through the Lute days where guys stayed 3 or 4 years

Wasn't Brian Williams/Bison Dele the first UA player under Lute to go pro before his eligibility was up? Even then, he had one year at Maryland, and 3 at Arizona (one redshirt) so he left after a redshirt junior season.

[NYCat]

Zeus, Gordon, RHJ are probably the only 5★s Miller has gotten that fit Miller's system.

Depending on needs for any given year...

Every year, get 2-4 mid to high 4★s (or low 5★s) that fit the system (length, athletic, defend), and plug in a 5★ or two.

You do this a for a couple of years and eventually you'll have Championship/F4 teams with upperclassmen and talented 5★ freshman and/or a 5★ sophomore/Junior to complete the team.

[Spaceman Spiff]

So declared from the UofA:

LM Defintely gone
KS Same as above
CC Probably gone
Rawle Alkins Just announced. Probably back?
Zo just waiting for the announcement but probably back

Such a love hate relationship I now have with college basketball. Glad I lived through the Lute days where guys stayed 3 or 4 years

Essentially yes. The declared without an agent guys, I'd just slap them into a wait and see class.

2 guys gone, 2 wait and sees and 1 TBD. It is what it is nowadays. There are upsides in the new normal for Arizona too. I doubt we would get East Coast recruits like Rondae or Rawle if not for the current electronic age. Recruiting is way less regional than it used to be, which is a big deal for us given the relative lack of consistent in state talent.

[Bear Down Vegas]

The list of guys declaring is much longer than the number of available spots. I do believe this is the new normal. But the announcements themselves do leave the impression that they are gone.

Agree with all of this.


RA worded that post so well...and it still reads like he's gone. & that's because he feels the need to say something - and if he does have a killer combine/interview process & jumps as much as say Solomon Hill did, he wants to word it correctly the first time. Yes, Hill had the big jump after staying for so long, but again - this is a new normal. Who knows how they will project over the next few weeks? Rawle especially has not missed a beat in his time at Arizona. Huge, huge, huge fan.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Zeus, Gordon, RHJ are probably the only 5★s Miller has gotten that fit Miller's system.

Depending on needs for any given year...

Every year, get 2-4 mid to high 4★s that fit the system (length, athletic, defend), and plug in a 5★ or two.

You do this a for a couple of years and eventually you'll have Championship/F4 teams with upperclassmen and talented 5★ freshman and/or a 5★ sophomore/Junior to complete the team.

I disagree. Nick Johnson was a 5 star. Ashley was a 5 star. Stanley was a 5 star. Zo, Rawle too, I don't see how they are particularly bad fits. They have the athleticism to defend like Miller wants, the size to rebound and can handle the positional interchangeability that a motion offense.

The bad fit list for me would include bigs who are too stationary (Dusan, Kyryl) and wings who weren't shooters, couldn't draw the D and fouled up motion spacing (Josiah, Simon).

[NYCat]

Zeus, Gordon, RHJ are probably the only 5★s Miller has gotten that fit Miller's system.

Depending on needs for any given year...

Every year, get 2-4 mid to high 4★s that fit the system (length, athletic, defend), and plug in a 5★ or two.

You do this a for a couple of years and eventually you'll have Championship/F4 teams with upperclassmen and talented 5★ freshman and/or a 5★ sophomore/Junior to complete the team.

I disagree. Nick Johnson was a 5 star. Ashley was a 5 star. Stanley was a 5 star. Zo, Rawle too, I don't see how they are particularly bad fits. They have the athleticism to defend like Miller wants, the size to rebound and can handle the positional interchangeability that a motion offense.

The bad fit list for me would include bigs who are too stationary (Dusan, Kyryl) and wings who weren't shooters, couldn't draw the D and fouled up motion spacing (Josiah, Simon).

I guess it's up so someone's definition of a Miller guy. To me some of these you listed are good players not necessarily a fit.

Parrom to me is the quintessential Miller guy. That's what I ask myself when I think of a good fit. It just happens to be that most of these are east coast guys..

[Main Event]

I think Rawle comes back.

[84Cat]

Glad I lived through the Lute days where guys stayed 3 or 4 years

Wasn't Brian Williams/Bison Dele the first UA player under Lute to go pro before his eligibility was up? Even then, he had one year at Maryland, and 3 at Arizona (one redshirt) so he left after a redshirt junior season.

Norman & Money went pro early under Snowden. I think you are correct with BDub.

[SCCats]

2016 Team

Starters
Kadeem - Senior - Gone
Allonzo - Sophomore
Rawle- Declaring
Lauri - Declaring
Dusan - Junior

Bench
Parker - Junior
Kobi - Declaring
Chase - Declaring
Keanu - Junior

Who's to say Allonzo & Dusan won't declare also - if so the entire starting lineup is potentially gone. Where will we be then?

Man college basketball is...kinda getting tedious.

[rgdeuce]

Drtg according to sports-reference:

Dusan Ristic: 99.7
Chance Comanche: 101.3
Lauri Markannen: 100.4
Keanu Pinder: 94.0 (led the team)

So, while my eyes agree with you, Deuce, the stats do not. To be fair, all three of our bigs were average defenders on a team of average defenders.

We both know how inaccurate defensive statistics can be and what they do not account for. Same rating also says Dusan is a better defender than Lauri.

Interested to hear your take on it Clip.

Ill keep it somewhat short.

I dont think hes a very good defender. He has certain tools that can help him defensively. He moves well, is decently quick, has good length. However, he just cant put it all together. He looks a bit clumsy at times, which is more than likely due to him still growing into his body. Yes, hes better defensively than Ristic, but the two still have poor situation/spacial awareness on defense and neither bring it all the time. When Chance is dialed in mentally and able to process his rotations and see the action on the floor coming to him, is when we see that defensive potential we all like. However, that definitely comes and goes. I dont think hes a good rim protector considering his length and athleticism, I think hes an average rebounder, and while he got better showing on high ball screens, he was a mess rotating back.

Offensively, I was pretty surprised this year. He definitely has progressed on that end, but again, still clumsy with his footwork. He makes a nice move, but then his feet stop moving and his base is off balance and feet tangled. Dont have too many problems with him on offense, because I think he plays to his strengths, but I dont consider him a good defender.

Overall, I would much rather have him back than risk the unknown, but only if hes going to bring it. If hes gone mentally in November because he is only seeing 15 minutes per game, might be best to move on. I wouldnt have a huge problem with that, assuming we can land someone to fill his role this season. Thats the real issue as far as im concerned, not keeping him here for two more years.

I dont disagree with anything you said. I dont think highly of Chance as a defender but I do think he is better than Dusan. I'd rather have tools and brain farts than slow feet and brain farts. For the last part, you are probably right.

[Merkin]

I doubt we would get East Coast recruits like Rondae or Rawle if not for the current electronic age.

Eric Money and Coniel Norman were both from Detroit. How Snowden got them I really don't know, maybe due to the extreme lack of African American coaches back then.

[84Cat]

I doubt we would get East Coast recruits like Rondae or Rawle if not for the current electronic age.

Eric Money and Coniel Norman were both from Detroit. How Snowden got them I really don't know, maybe due to the extreme lack of African American coaches back then.

Snowden was an assistant coach at Michigan before taking the Arizona job.

[gumby]

Damn, why would anyone want to coach college ball anymore? How do you know who is actually coming back? This needs to change for the good of the game.

Coaches know in early May. It does cause confusion on who to pursue in the meantime, but it clarifies soon.

Since it seems like a sensible thing to do (why not get assessed?), I wonder why the decision itself requires a formal announcement with rhetorical flourishes. Just go do it.

If you actually do leave, then announce.

I couldn't be more honored to have been posting on this site for these past years. With all of my infinite blessings counted on nearly every finger on both of my hands, I have made the decision to follow this message with further posts.

That, sir, is a post up with which I will not put.

[gumby]

2016 Team

Starters
Kadeem - Senior - Gone
Allonzo - Sophomore
Rawle- Declaring
Lauri - Declaring
Dusan - Junior

Bench
Parker - Junior
Kobi - Declaring
Chase - Declaring
Keanu - Junior

Who's to say Allonzo & Dusan won't declare also - if so the entire starting lineup is potentially gone. Where will we be then?

Every year from now on, our entire lineup is potentially gone. Not just ours.

[gumby]

You agree to let them stop going to class post-season for no reason when you administer them an athletic scholarship.

With smartphones, they should be able to bang out some assignments during TV timeouts. Bench guys have no excuse.

[rgdeuce]

The only reason where in the xavier game is because of dusan.

But then again every season needs a scapegoat.

No matter what the guy gives you in points, you always have to account what he gives up to his man, what your teammates give up because he didn't do his job or do it effectively, second chance points because he couldn't grab a rebound that the average center would (or didn't box out), etc. I kept track a couple of games. I'm trying to remember which game it was, but it was among his better games and he had 16 or 18 points. Despite that, real rough estimate as I am going off memory, it was something like 6 second chance points off rebounds he should have had/not boxing out, 10 points off terrible pick and roll recovery/hedging/etc and/or leaving his teammate out to dry to, and 4-6 points off terrible positioning/losing his man/etc. Whatever the exact numbers were, it completely negated every point he gave us on the offensive end, and I did NOT include straight up points where he just got beat by a good move or a nice shot or because of bad on-ball low post defense, or points from the foul line. Granted, not every game is that bad, but he isn't consistent offensively either.

As for the Xavier game, yes, he had 17 points. Most of those were in the games opening moments, and most of his seven field goals were on wide open looks inside/layups and one put back. Any center gets us those points. IIRC, he had 2 field goals on plays that would be iffy for Chance. Dusan also had 4 personal fouls, two turnovers (including that costly one late that led to the second of Xavier's two huge 3's) and only grabbed 4 boards, all in 24 minutes. Chance had 0 fouls, 0 turnovers, defended much better than Dusan, and grabbed half as many boards in 1/4 of the minutes.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Zeus, Gordon, RHJ are probably the only 5★s Miller has gotten that fit Miller's system.

Depending on needs for any given year...

Every year, get 2-4 mid to high 4★s that fit the system (length, athletic, defend), and plug in a 5★ or two.

You do this a for a couple of years and eventually you'll have Championship/F4 teams with upperclassmen and talented 5★ freshman and/or a 5★ sophomore/Junior to complete the team.

I disagree. Nick Johnson was a 5 star. Ashley was a 5 star. Stanley was a 5 star. Zo, Rawle too, I don't see how they are particularly bad fits. They have the athleticism to defend like Miller wants, the size to rebound and can handle the positional interchangeability that a motion offense.

The bad fit list for me would include bigs who are too stationary (Dusan, Kyryl) and wings who weren't shooters, couldn't draw the D and fouled up motion spacing (Josiah, Simon).

I guess it's up so someone's definition of a Miller guy. To me some of these you listed are good players not necessarily a fit.

Parrom to me is the quintessential Miller guy. That's what I ask myself when I think of a good fit. It just happens to be that most of these are east coast guys..

It is semantic, I agree there. I was thinking, and I actually think a Miller guy is distinct from a good fit.

Rondae is a great example. He is definitely a Miller guy. Offensively, I don't think he was a great fit. Motion offenses work best when wings are shooters who pull defenders to them and increase spacing. Rondae always was a dicey shooter who defenses could sag off and hurt our offensive spacing. Of course, he balanced that by being exceptional in all other categories.

Miller guy is a more intangible thing. System fit tends to be more tangible, and I think we do pretty well in that area. There may be fewer 5 star Miller guys, but I don't think most 5 stars are close to Miller guys. It's hard to get a 5 star blue collar guy.

If we're talking Miller guys, I'll give you that Ashley, Stanley and Zo might not be. I would say that Rawle and Nick meet that definition, though. Nick grew into a really tough defender and leader. Rawle has that same potential. A guy who gets 16 rebounds on the road vs ASU is a Miller guy.

[midnightx]

Chance had the opportunity to have a special junior season. He was on the verge of potentially having a breakout year next season. He is leaving prematurely; destined to be riding the bench in the D-League next year. What a waste.

AZ's chance at a final four continues to diminish with every passing day. If some of these players, who clearly need more time developing in college, cannot stay for more than one or two years, it is unlikely that this program has a deep tournament run in the near future. Chance and Kobi are not NBA ready. Even Trier won't make a pro team next year, even if he is drafted. Who knows what happens with Rawle, but he likely is not going to make an NBA roster either at this point in his development, even though he has tremendous potential. If Miller can't keep any of these guys in the program for next year, it is going to be a rough season.

[gumby]

I doubt we would get East Coast recruits like Rondae or Rawle if not for the current electronic age.

Eric Money and Coniel Norman were both from Detroit. How Snowden got them I really don't know, maybe due to the extreme lack of African American coaches back then.

Snowden was an assistant coach at Michigan before taking the Arizona job.

Dave Strack, AD, was from Michigan, too. Also Bob Elliott.

Herm Harris and Len Gordy are from Chester, Pa., same high school as Rondae.

We got Reeves from NYC. Bohannon from Maine. Demic, Fleming, Lofton and Garder from Indiana. Nehls, Iggy and Wright from Illinois. Edgerson from Louisiana.

Etc.

[SirClinks]

Chance had the opportunity to have a special junior season. He was on the verge of potentially having a breakout year next season. He is leaving prematurely; destined to be riding the bench in the D-League next year. What a waste.

AZ's chance at a final four continues to diminish with every passing day. If some of these players, who clearly need more time developing in college, cannot stay for more than one or two years, it is unlikely that this program has a deep tournament run in the near future. Chance and Kobi are not NBA ready. Even Trier won't make a pro team next year, even if he is drafted. Who knows what happens with Rawle, but he likely is not going to make an NBA roster either at this point in his development, even though he has tremendous potential. If Miller can't keep any of these guys in the program for next year, it is going to be a rough season.

Chance hasn't hired an agent, I believe, so he could still be back. Same with Rawle.

It sucks, but this is the reality of college basketball.

[NYCat]

I dont care that Rawle, Chance and possibly Trier declare without agents, but it puts the program in a hard spot. Do the coaches recruit over them so they have bodies next year, and if they come back possibly having no room for them. Or do they wait it out and risk not recruiting anyone to replace them and lose the players to to the draft.

With Kobi, Lauri at least you know they're gone.

[Longhorned]

I dont care that Rawle, Chance and possibly Trier declare without agents, but it puts the program in a hard spot. Do the coaches recruit over them so they have bodies next year, and if they come back possibly having no room for them. Or do they wait it out and risk not recruiting anyone to replace them and lose the players to to the draft.

With Kobi, Lauri at least you know they're gone.

My understanding is that coaches tightly manage these issues through direct communication with the players, NBA team personnel, and the recruits. All updates are routed to Scheer as soon as they happen, and then Scheer leaves us all in the dark until regular, crazy people who follow off-season changes are allowed to know.

[Merkin]

Chance hasn't hired an agent, I believe, so he could still be back.

How does that work if Chance it taking this semester off? Does that mean he will miss the first half of next season? Or can he go to summer school? Does UA even have a summer school anymore?

[Spaceman Spiff]

I dont care that Rawle, Chance and possibly Trier declare without agents, but it puts the program in a hard spot. Do the coaches recruit over them so they have bodies next year, and if they come back possibly having no room for them. Or do they wait it out and risk not recruiting anyone to replace them and lose the players to to the draft.

With Kobi, Lauri at least you know they're gone.

It's what testing the waters is. Would we rather have Rawle and Chance gone for good?

Recruits who haven't decided won't sweat a few extra weeks. I assume Miller has a plan, as this is a constant possibility. It's only the fans who get super anxious.

[PHXCATS]

I dont care that Rawle, Chance and possibly Trier declare without agents, but it puts the program in a hard spot. Do the coaches recruit over them so they have bodies next year, and if they come back possibly having no room for them. Or do they wait it out and risk not recruiting anyone to replace them and lose the players to to the draft.

With Kobi, Lauri at least you know they're gone.

It's what testing the waters is. Would we rather have Rawle and Chance gone for good?

Recruits who haven't decided won't sweat a few extra weeks. I assume Miller has a plan, as this is a constant possibility. It's only the fans who get super anxious.

From what I have seen and heard that isnt the case this time around

[midnightx]

I dont care that Rawle, Chance and possibly Trier declare without agents, but it puts the program in a hard spot. Do the coaches recruit over them so they have bodies next year, and if they come back possibly having no room for them. Or do they wait it out and risk not recruiting anyone to replace them and lose the players to to the draft.

With Kobi, Lauri at least you know they're gone.

Agreed, that is the main issue. It becomes toxic for recruiting. For example, Bowen likely would have already committed if he knew Trier and Alkins were both gone.

Yes, it is the way the world of college basketball is, but it becomes difficult to put a very good, experienced team on the floor. It all might fall into place with a couple of key freshmen, like it did for Kentucky and then Duke one time each over the past several years, but even those programs get hit with underdeveloped, highly ranked freshman having to carry the workload -- often they aren't ready to win titles.

[Bangkok Wildcat]

I can't believe Rawle will go but am confident he plans to leave next year and is just taking advantage of checking his status out like any smart kid would. Am I wrong here?

PS. I repeat this ad-nauseam but this thread sucks, is depressing, but can't stay away from it either...ughhh.

[McKale Midwest]

Anybody reading into the fact that Trier tweeted out a bunch of "crying laughing" emoji's shortly after Rawle declared for the draft?

Is there a chemistry issue on this team that nobody is talking about? I've been kind of curious about this since about halfway through the year, when several members of the team posted pictures on Instagram, and the only 2 players missing were CC and RA. I assume that it is a commonality that most college teams have "cliques", but never to the point to where Trier can't even congratulate a teammate for making a decision to enter the NBA draft.

[prh]

Anybody reading into the fact that Trier tweeted out a bunch of "crying laughing" emoji's shortly after Rawle declared for the draft?

Is there a chemistry issue on this team that nobody is talking about? I've been kind of curious about this since about halfway through the year, when several members of the team posted pictures on Instagram, and the only 2 players missing were CC and RA. I assume that it is a commonality that most college teams have "cliques", but never to the point to where Trier can't even congratulate a teammate for making a decision to enter the NBA draft.

Maybe he's laughing at all of us freaking out when they all know Rawle is coming back. Everything's a possibility, but Zo has shown to have some grasp on the general public

[ChooChooCat]

Anybody reading into the fact that Trier tweeted out a bunch of "crying laughing" emoji's shortly after Rawle declared for the draft?

Is there a chemistry issue on this team that nobody is talking about? I've been kind of curious about this since about halfway through the year, when several members of the team posted pictures on Instagram, and the only 2 players missing were CC and RA. I assume that it is a commonality that most college teams have "cliques", but never to the point to where Trier can't even congratulate a teammate for making a decision to enter the NBA draft.

You're reading into a twitter post with zero context whatsoever. Think about that and then think about what you just posted.

[UAEebs86]

So when are PJC and Pinder declaring?

[McKale Midwest]

Anybody reading into the fact that Trier tweeted out a bunch of "crying laughing" emoji's shortly after Rawle declared for the draft?

Is there a chemistry issue on this team that nobody is talking about? I've been kind of curious about this since about halfway through the year, when several members of the team posted pictures on Instagram, and the only 2 players missing were CC and RA. I assume that it is a commonality that most college teams have "cliques", but never to the point to where Trier can't even congratulate a teammate for making a decision to enter the NBA draft.

You're reading into a twitter post with zero context whatsoever. Think about that and then think about what you just posted.

If you don't think there is something to Trier's tweet just minutes after Rawle declares for the draft, then your'e wrong. He sent congratulations to his other 3 teammates that have declared so far, why not Rawle?

[NYCat]

Trier is practically the only Arizona player Rawle doesn't follow on the Twitter's fwiw.

[McKale Midwest]

... Check Triers latest tweet. Sad day for Arizona fans.

Guess we need every person on the planet to make 3 twitter accounts, and retweet Zo so he Will come back.

20 BILLION?! Is Tuscon that unbearable?

[NYCat]

... Check Triers latest tweet. Sad day for Arizona fans.

Guess we need every person on the planet to make 3 twitter accounts, and retweet Zo so he Will come back.

20 BILLION?! Is Tuscon that unbearable?

I mean, if he's not joking he put such a high number so it wouldn't be reached. I'd bet a joke

[UAEebs86]

[azcat49]

Trier Also was not enamored with #savagelife when he was asked about it at a pressor before one of the tourney games

[ChooChooCat]

Trier is practically the only Arizona player Rawle doesn't follow on the Twitter's fwiw.

Well obviously chemistry issues confirmed boys!

[ChooChooCat]

... Check Triers latest tweet. Sad day for Arizona fans.

Guess we need every person on the planet to make 3 twitter accounts, and retweet Zo so he Will come back.

20 BILLION?! Is Tuscon that unbearable?

Good Christ get off social media already for your own good.