Bear Down Wildcats

Playing a team that has that much height, playing that kind of disciplined zone, and having to come back from a 2nd half deficit is going to pay off huge in March.

I know that the way the Cats played in the first half gave all of us a serious case of heartburn, but the way they played in the second should give you heart. For one thing, Zeus shook off a suckfest to get some tip ins and defensive stops when the team needed them most. For another, everyone hit their free throws. For a third, a clear leader has emerged in RHJ. When the team was looking for someone to take over, he stepped up. For a fourth, that was the most cohesive the veterans played with Stanley and it was the best Stanley played within the team concept.

Yeah yeah, another slow fucking start. But oh what a finish...

Great take Chi

Just as the game ended my father called to chat about the game. The first thing I told him was "This team needed that, it could pay dividends in March"

When your seven footer doesn't tire out in the 2nd half, it makes a difference.

Agreed on the game aspect.

great post, fully agree.

SJ is working on it and coming around.

You guys have clearly not gotten the memo - we suck, slow start, blah blah blah.

17 point win over a good UCI team, players finding their niche/groove, I like what I see so far.

TJ and Miller both said the team grew up a lot tonight in the post game press conference. I definitely agree, the team needed this type of game against a really good tournament team. Being down for a lot of the second and then a 30-8 run to end the game? That's pretty damn amazing.

I said this last year and I'll say it again. This team has a refuse to lose attitude. They won't win every game, but you can bet the house they'll fight to the final second.

Loved the free throws, finish and Stanley's 10 rebounds. But, yeah, long way to go on offense. Better hurry, Zags are clicking.

I failed to mention that I also love playing this kind of game right before a tournament situation. If they want to win Maui, they are going to have to out-tough everyone, which is exactly what they did tonight.

Chicat wrote:I failed to mention that I also love playing this kind of game right before a tournament situation. If they want to win Maui, they are going to have to out-tough everyone, which is exactly what they did tonight.

Yeah, especially if we get SDSU again. Listening to that Utah game was brutal, I can only imagine what it looked like...

gumby wrote:Loved the free throws, finish and Stanley's 10 rebounds. But, yeah, long way to go on offense. Better hurry, Zags are clicking.

Zags are probably wishing the early rounds of the NIT had better competition. Not much you can learn with a 48-10 halftime score.

Well you guys have the equivalent of the far left side opinions & takes covered, I'll take the right. Left being the Brady Hoke ways of seeing things, which was thinking Michigan could still win the NC after 3 loses, also clapping as hard as he can even when the Qb just threw another pick. Right being the Nick Saban/Rich Rod way - tough, hard, critical not because you hate them but because you want better from them. The truth isn't always on the left or the right, always somewhere in the middle, so just some contrasting opinions.

Slow starts and games will happen but the team will win making everyone forget. Very similar to the last couple of years.

Just like last year the team had a good offensive performance to ease my doubt's. Now that I think about it objectively, Theus' scheme allowed the team to run and play a more fast paced game where the offense excelled.

I understand its hard to pay attention to the problems when you're winning, even more so when you mainly look at the final score + stats. Especially when a lot of you choose to only look at the end result/destination instead of the journey.

If it happened/happens one or twice or 3-4 times you could cough it up to a bad day, slump etc. But when its numerous and happens repeatedly its no longer isolated incidents, its a pattern.

If I could sum up my concerns for the offense I'd ask you to read the game threads. It's amazing people agree with me and pretty much say the same thing on there (throughout the season), but when its in its own thread not a lot of people agree. [Read the ones from last year or this year, either way it's pretty much the same thing]

Like last year, it became a pattern, no longer an abnormality. It will eventually catch up to the team like it did last year.

This Miller offense is limited. Does he not devote enough time & energy to offense? Defense is his priority, but its his 1-A, 1-B, 1-C as well. Rebounding comes in at 2nd. Offense seems to come at 3 on his area of most importance. I don't understand how TJ for example at Duquesne was a good shooter but not here, how he's supposedly the best shooter on the team yet 9/10 games it doesn't show. How is it that players suck at FTs at Arizona? Why can't anyone make perimeter shots? Or bunnies? Certainly can't be the players when it keeps happening with different personnel over the years. How is it possible, not enough time/practice/focus/attention?

This team will have a tougher time scoring vs better, tougher, bigger, longer teams even more then now. When they don't have to consistently respect TJ + York shooting. Nor their ability to penetrate on the inside, even if they kick it out to open players in the wings, they can't shoot to save their lives. A defense can just play tight defense inside the arc.

Miller's scheme: If I can make a comparison to football. It's very much like an i-formation, wishbone, triple option and similar offenses. Mostly old, outdated and rarley used because it doesn't work in the modern age. If it is used its mostly used by less talented teams (Air Force, Navy, GTech etc). It slows down the game, and you wear out the other team, yes. Because of the slowish pace it allows teams to stay in the game longer then they should have, giving them opportunities to beat you they otherwise wouldn't have. But in close games, especially when you're losing its hard to score because you don't have the homerun threat nor the knockout punch.

For a team built like this (like last year), it should have a ceiling of National Championship and a floor of Final Four. Instead the ceiling is Final Four (maybe runner up) and a floor is an Elite Eight.

Last thing, the team is either soft or plays soft. Play like you're the better team. You're better, tougher, stronger, more athletic, faster, taller, bigger, longer. Play like it.

What a fantastic post.

Wait, I thought the offense was OK now? So confused.

Lamenting a system that has allowed a team to literally be a shot away from a Final 4, in 2 out of the last 3 years...wow.

AZCatGirl wrote:

gumby wrote:Loved the free throws, finish and Stanley's 10 rebounds. But, yeah, long way to go on offense. Better hurry, Zags are clicking.

Zags are probably wishing the early rounds of the NIT had better competition. Not much you can learn with a 48-10 halftime score.

Can see what the subs can do. Starters benched, and a 12-1 start. Now 60-11.

NYCat wrote:Well you guys have the equivalent of the far left side opinions & takes covered, I'll take the right. Left being the Brady Hoke ways of seeing things, which was thinking Michigan could still win the NC after 3 loses, also clapping as hard as he can even when the Qb just threw a pick. Right being the Nick Saban/Rich Rod way. The truth isn't always on the left or the right, always somewhere in the middle, so just some contrasting opinions.

Slow starts and games will happen but the team will win making everyone forget. Very similar to the last couple of years.

Just like last year the team had a good offensive performance to ease my doubt's. Now that I think about it objectively, Theus' scheme allowed the team to run and play a more fast paced game where the offense excelled.

I understand its hard to pay attention to the problems when you're winning, even more so when you mainly look at the final score + stats. Especially when a lot of you choose to only look at the end result/destination instead of the journey.

If it happened/happens one or twice or 3-4 times you could cough it up to a bad day, slump etc. But when its numerous and happens repeatedly its no longer isolated incidents, its a pattern.

If I could sum up my concerns for the offense I'd ask you to read the game threads. It's amazing people agree with me and pretty much say the same thing on there (throughout the season), but when its in its own thread not a lot of people agree. [Read the ones from last year or this year, either way it's pretty much the same thing]

Like last year, it became a pattern, no longer an abnormality. It will eventually catch up to the team like it did last year.

This Miller offense is limited. Does he not devote enough time & energy to offense? Defense is his priority, but its his 1-A, 1-B, 1-C as well. Rebounding comes in at 2nd. Offense seems to come at 3 on his area of most importance. I don't understand how TJ for example at Duquesne was a good shooter but not here, how he's supposedly the best shooter on the team yet 9/10 games it doesn't show. How is it that players suck at FTs at Arizona? Why can't anyone make perimeter shots? Or bunnies? Certainly can't be the players when it keeps happening with different personnel over the years. How is it possible, not enough time/practice/focus/attention?

Miller's scheme: If I can make a comparison to football. It's very much like an i-formation, wishbone, triple option and similar offenses. Mostly old, outdated and rarley used because it doesn't work in the modern age. If it is used its mostly used by less talented teams (Air Force, Navy, GTech etc). It slows down the game, and you wear out the other team, yes. Because of the slowish pace it allows teams to stay in the game longer then they should have, giving them opportunities to beat you they otherwise wouldn't have. But in close games, especially when you're losing its hard to score because you don't have the homerun plays or options, or the knockout punch.

For a team built like this (like last year), it should have a ceiling of National Championship and a floor of Final Four. Instead the ceiling is Final Four (maybe runner up) and a floor is an Elite Eight.

Last thing, the team is either soft or plays soft. Play like you're the better team. You're better, tougher, stronger, more athletic, faster, taller, bigger, longer. Play like it.

So gracious of you to take on that important role in the interests of the board.

Sybil, is that you?? You're on a really short cycle this month... Might need a prescription for these violent mood swings.

PS - Don't wear white pants until this one is over....

NYCat wrote:Well you guys have the equivalent of the far left side opinions & takes covered, I'll take the right. Left being the Brady Hoke ways of seeing things, which was thinking Michigan could still win the NC after 3 loses, also clapping as hard as he can even when the Qb just threw a pick. Right being the Nick Saban/Rich Rod way. The truth isn't always on the left or the right, always somewhere in the middle, so just some contrasting opinions.

Slow starts and games will happen but the team will win making everyone forget. Very similar to the last couple of years.

Just like last year the team had a good offensive performance to ease my doubt's. Now that I think about it objectively, Theus' scheme allowed the team to run and play a more fast paced game where the offense excelled.

I understand its hard to pay attention to the problems when you're winning, even more so when you mainly look at the final score + stats. Especially when a lot of you choose to only look at the end result/destination instead of the journey.

If it happened/happens one or twice or 3-4 times you could cough it up to a bad day, slump etc. But when its numerous and happens repeatedly its no longer isolated incidents, its a pattern.

If I could sum up my concerns for the offense I'd ask you to read the game threads. It's amazing people agree with me and pretty much say the same thing on there (throughout the season), but when its in its own thread not a lot of people agree. [Read the ones from last year or this year, either way it's pretty much the same thing]

Like last year, it became a pattern, no longer an abnormality. It will eventually catch up to the team like it did last year.

This Miller offense is limited. Does he not devote enough time & energy to offense? Defense is his priority, but its his 1-A, 1-B, 1-C as well. Rebounding comes in at 2nd. Offense seems to come at 3 on his area of most importance. I don't understand how TJ for example at Duquesne was a good shooter but not here, how he's supposedly the best shooter on the team yet 9/10 games it doesn't show. How is it that players suck at FTs at Arizona? Why can't anyone make perimeter shots? Or bunnies? Certainly can't be the players when it keeps happening with different personnel over the years. How is it possible, not enough time/practice/focus/attention?

Miller's scheme: If I can make a comparison to football. It's very much like an i-formation, wishbone, triple option and similar offenses. Mostly old, outdated and rarley used because it doesn't work in the modern age. If it is used its mostly used by less talented teams (Air Force, Navy, GTech etc). It slows down the game, and you wear out the other team, yes. Because of the slowish pace it allows teams to stay in the game longer then they should have, giving them opportunities to beat you they otherwise wouldn't have. But in close games, especially when you're losing its hard to score because you don't have the homerun plays or options, or the knockout punch.

For a team built like this (like last year), it should have a ceiling of National Championship and a floor of Final Four. Instead the ceiling is Final Four (maybe runner up) and a floor is an Elite Eight.

Last thing, the team is either soft or plays soft. Play like you're the better team. You're better, tougher, stronger, more athletic, faster, taller, bigger, longer. Play like it.

Oh.

So now the "new" offense isn't working for you, huh NYCat? Mere moments after you praised it. Shocking...

(Psssssssst - there is no "new" offense. You just had nothing to complain about after the CSUN game and made that shit up)

Good post Chi.

gumby wrote:Loved the free throws, finish and Stanley's 10 rebounds. But, yeah, long way to go on offense. Better hurry, Zags are clicking.

A bit hard to compare because Arizona plays pretty good defense even when they aren't playing as intensely as they can play. When they turned it on the last 8 minutes, amazing on how the UC team fell apart. Coach Miller said that there is a cumulative effect of this defense which wears down other teams and we really saw it.

I also remind folks that Arizona wasn't that impressive in the first few games last year and relied a lot on the wearing down of opponents even against some not-so-good teams.

On a side note Ndiyae likes to hug during the post game handshake. I thought he and Rondae were going to make-out.

Well he did get digits:

Olsondogg wrote:Well he did get digits:

ha the only reason they stopped was some staff guy pulled Rondae for the post-game presser

Chicat wrote:Playing a team that has that much height, playing that kind of disciplined zone, and having to come back from a 2nd half deficit is going to pay off huge in March.

I know that the way the Cats played in the first half gave all of us a serious case of heartburn, but the way they played in the second should give you heart. For one thing, Zeus shook off a suckfest to get some tip ins and defensive stops when the team needed them most. For another, everyone hit their free throws. For a third, a clear leader has emerged in RHJ. When the team was looking for someone to take over, he stepped up. For a fourth, that was the most cohesive the veterans played with Stanley and it was the best Stanley played within the team concept.

Yeah yeah, another slow fucking start. But oh what a finish...

Objective post as usual, Chi. Thanks!

Emergence of TJ and RH-J as our leaders----yes! Rondae brings his explosions and TJ puts up a stunning line: 12 points(with 2/4 treys), 9 rebounds, 6 steals, 4 dimes, and zero turnovers.

NYCat wrote:Well you guys have the equivalent of the far left side opinions & takes covered, I'll take the right. Left being the Brady Hoke ways of seeing things, which was thinking Michigan could still win the NC after 3 loses, also clapping as hard as he can even when the Qb just threw another pick. Right being the Nick Saban/Rich Rod way - tough, hard, critical not because you hate them but because you want better from them. The truth isn't always on the left or the right, always somewhere in the middle, so just some contrasting opinions.

Slow starts and games will happen but the team will win making everyone forget. Very similar to the last couple of years.

Just like last year the team had a good offensive performance to ease my doubt's. Now that I think about it objectively, Theus' scheme allowed the team to run and play a more fast paced game where the offense excelled.

I understand its hard to pay attention to the problems when you're winning, even more so when you mainly look at the final score + stats. Especially when a lot of you choose to only look at the end result/destination instead of the journey.

If it happened/happens one or twice or 3-4 times you could cough it up to a bad day, slump etc. But when its numerous and happens repeatedly its no longer isolated incidents, its a pattern.

If I could sum up my concerns for the offense I'd ask you to read the game threads. It's amazing people agree with me and pretty much say the same thing on there (throughout the season), but when its in its own thread not a lot of people agree. [Read the ones from last year or this year, either way it's pretty much the same thing]

Like last year, it became a pattern, no longer an abnormality. It will eventually catch up to the team like it did last year.

This Miller offense is limited. Does he not devote enough time & energy to offense? Defense is his priority, but its his 1-A, 1-B, 1-C as well. Rebounding comes in at 2nd. Offense seems to come at 3 on his area of most importance. I don't understand how TJ for example at Duquesne was a good shooter but not here, how he's supposedly the best shooter on the team yet 9/10 games it doesn't show. How is it that players suck at FTs at Arizona? Why can't anyone make perimeter shots? Or bunnies? Certainly can't be the players when it keeps happening with different personnel over the years. How is it possible, not enough time/practice/focus/attention?

This team will have a tougher time scoring vs better, tougher, bigger, longer teams even more then now. When they don't have to consistently respect TJ + York shooting. Nor their ability to penetrate on the inside, even if they kick it out to open players in the wings, they can't shoot to save their lives. A defense can just play tight defense inside the arc.

Miller's scheme: If I can make a comparison to football. It's very much like an i-formation, wishbone, triple option and similar offenses. Mostly old, outdated and rarley used because it doesn't work in the modern age. If it is used its mostly used by less talented teams (Air Force, Navy, GTech etc). It slows down the game, and you wear out the other team, yes. Because of the slowish pace it allows teams to stay in the game longer then they should have, giving them opportunities to beat you they otherwise wouldn't have. But in close games, especially when you're losing its hard to score because you don't have the homerun threat nor the knockout punch.

For a team built like this (like last year), it should have a ceiling of National Championship and a floor of Final Four. Instead the ceiling is Final Four (maybe runner up) and a floor is an Elite Eight.

Last thing, the team is either soft or plays soft. Play like you're the better team. You're better, tougher, stronger, more athletic, faster, taller, bigger, longer. Play like it.

Stopped reading at "I'll take the right"

You didn't miss much.

Daryl Zero wrote:

gumby wrote:Loved the free throws, finish and Stanley's 10 rebounds. But, yeah, long way to go on offense. Better hurry, Zags are clicking.

A bit hard to compare because Arizona plays pretty good defense even when they aren't playing as intensely as they can play. When they turned it on the last 8 minutes, amazing on how the UC team fell apart. Coach Miller said that there is a cumulative effect of this defense which wears down other teams and we really saw it.

I also remind folks that Arizona wasn't that impressive in the first few games last year and relied a lot on the wearing down of opponents even against some not-so-good teams.

Agree. Make our money on defense. Lotta steals this year. And on further review, SJ was not out of bounds on his. Unless it's like football,.where you can't come back in.

gumby wrote:

Daryl Zero wrote:

gumby wrote:Loved the free throws, finish and Stanley's 10 rebounds. But, yeah, long way to go on offense. Better hurry, Zags are clicking.

A bit hard to compare because Arizona plays pretty good defense even when they aren't playing as intensely as they can play. When they turned it on the last 8 minutes, amazing on how the UC team fell apart. Coach Miller said that there is a cumulative effect of this defense which wears down other teams and we really saw it.

I also remind folks that Arizona wasn't that impressive in the first few games last year and relied a lot on the wearing down of opponents even against some not-so-good teams.

Agree. Make our money on defense. Lotta steals this year. And on further review, SJ was not out of bounds on his. Unless it's like football,.where you can't come back in.

You have to reestablish yourself inbounds. It looked like he grabbed the ball right before stepping back in bounds.

I have to say though, SJ has been called for some seriously ticky-tack shit so far. He needs to make nice with the refs like Rondae does.

UCI picked to win the Big West by a pretty big margin.

gumby wrote:

Daryl Zero wrote:

gumby wrote:Loved the free throws, finish and Stanley's 10 rebounds. But, yeah, long way to go on offense. Better hurry, Zags are clicking.

A bit hard to compare because Arizona plays pretty good defense even when they aren't playing as intensely as they can play. When they turned it on the last 8 minutes, amazing on how the UC team fell apart. Coach Miller said that there is a cumulative effect of this defense which wears down other teams and we really saw it.

I also remind folks that Arizona wasn't that impressive in the first few games last year and relied a lot on the wearing down of opponents even against some not-so-good teams.

Agree. Make our money on defense. Lotta steals this year. And on further review, SJ was not out of bounds on his. Unless it's like football,.where you can't come back in.

SJ definitely stepped on the line after the steal.

But no, he isn't getting the Michael Jordan calls he is used too. Reminds me of BAsh as a freshman, never got any calls.

Never did see the palming call, but immediately afterwards the UCI PG was palming the ball the entire way down the court bringing it down.

So reestablish means both feet? He had one foot back in and the other in the air when he touched the ball. Anyway, nice effort.

gumby wrote:So reestablish means both feet? He had one foot back in and the other in the air when he touched the ball. Anyway, nice effort.

I thought his first foot hadn't come down in bounds yet before he touched the ball, but I could be wrong about that. Would have to watch a replay to be certain.

Chicat wrote:

gumby wrote:

Daryl Zero wrote:

gumby wrote:Loved the free throws, finish and Stanley's 10 rebounds. But, yeah, long way to go on offense. Better hurry, Zags are clicking.

A bit hard to compare because Arizona plays pretty good defense even when they aren't playing as intensely as they can play. When they turned it on the last 8 minutes, amazing on how the UC team fell apart. Coach Miller said that there is a cumulative effect of this defense which wears down other teams and we really saw it.

I also remind folks that Arizona wasn't that impressive in the first few games last year and relied a lot on the wearing down of opponents even against some not-so-good teams.

Agree. Make our money on defense. Lotta steals this year. And on further review, SJ was not out of bounds on his. Unless it's like football,.where you can't come back in.

You have to reestablish yourself inbounds. It looked like he grabbed the ball right before stepping back in bounds.

I have to say though, SJ has been called for some seriously ticky-tack shit so far. He needs to make nice with the refs like Rondae does.

I'm interested to see where the refs in Maui are from...and how they call the games. Could be an eye opening moment for those watching SJ.

Chicat wrote:

gumby wrote:So reestablish means both feet? He had one foot back in and the other in the air when he touched the ball. Anyway, nice effort.

I thought his first foot hadn't come down in bounds yet before he touched the ball, but I could be wrong about that. Would have to watch a replay to be certain.

I rolled it back and watched last night. But then I deleted the game. Pretty sure he pushed the ball ahead, stepped on the line with one foot, stepped back in with one foot (with the other off the ground) and touched the ball.

Maybe someone else can rewatch to confirm. But if it's both feet, this is moot. Definitely didn't do that.

How did I miss this thread? My sentiments exactly on the OP.

Olsondogg wrote:Yeah, especially if we get SDSU again. Listening to that Utah game was brutal, I can only imagine what it looked like...

Not pretty. Angelo did make a couple Utes pay the Chol Toll. Bill Walton and Dave Pasch were in mid-season form. But yeah, brutal game to watch.

NYCat wrote:Well you guys have the equivalent of the far left side opinions & takes covered, I'll take the right. Left being the Brady Hoke ways of seeing things, which was thinking Michigan could still win the NC after 3 loses, also clapping as hard as he can even when the Qb just threw another pick. Right being the Nick Saban/Rich Rod way - tough, hard, critical not because you hate them but because you want better from them. The truth isn't always on the left or the right, always somewhere in the middle, so just some contrasting opinions.

Slow starts and games will happen but the team will win making everyone forget. Very similar to the last couple of years.

Just like last year the team had a good offensive performance to ease my doubt's. Now that I think about it objectively, Theus' scheme allowed the team to run and play a more fast paced game where the offense excelled.

I understand its hard to pay attention to the problems when you're winning, even more so when you mainly look at the final score + stats. Especially when a lot of you choose to only look at the end result/destination instead of the journey. ...

I stopped reading here. To this point it was the most arrogant, obnoxious, self-aggrandizing and patronizing post I've read on the boards in a long time. No reason to read further, your opinion of UA's offense clearly forecast in the fit of pique above, and what remained was surely a premature ejaculation of overwrought and underthought musings poorly informed by too small a sample and reinforced by a lazy reliance on past performance, which as we all know but sometimes forget, does not guarantee future results.

(Did I see correctly that you cited in-game threads as "support" for your take? The pinnacle of no-filter, heat-of-the-moment, lack of forethought, straight-from-your-brain-to-the keyboard-hit-enter-no-pause displays of unrestrained id which form a cesspool of irrational postings digitally enshrined for all to see? Those threads? Please. If anything, doing so completely undercuts any and all coherent points you attempt to convey. Next time, cite wikipedia or call Miss Cleo, you'll have more credible support for your arguments then.)

All I will say in regards to the offense THIS SEASON, is 1.) it's a work in progress - The issue so far isn't talent, ability, or scheme, it's consistency and coherence, which will improve over time - which 2.) after 3 games, has already shown flashes of real potential. While I believe this team won't hit its offensive stride until conference play, it will become more efficient and productive by season's end than last year, and that some patience in the interim will be rewarded.

Heck, the CSN game you referred to as a "good offensive performance" wasn't even all that good - FG%s and point total aside, way too many turnovers even with the high tempo, guards were completely ineffective in feeding the post, too many empty possessions and missed too many FTs - so I'm not even convinced you'd know a good offensive performance anyway unless it sat on your face and wiggled.

Of course, you have no appreciation for Sharon Stone, so it's no wonder that any offense that is less than the equivalent of a "wham-bam-thank-you-maam" quickie does not impress you ...

dcZONAfan wrote:Stopped reading at "I'll take the right"

Should have followed your cue ...

gumby wrote:

Chicat wrote:

gumby wrote:So reestablish means both feet? He had one foot back in and the other in the air when he touched the ball. Anyway, nice effort.

I thought his first foot hadn't come down in bounds yet before he touched the ball, but I could be wrong about that. Would have to watch a replay to be certain.

I rolled it back and watched last night. But then I deleted the game. Pretty sure he pushed the ball ahead, stepped on the line with one foot, stepped back in with one foot (with the other off the ground) and touched the ball.

Maybe someone else can rewatch to confirm. But if it's both feet, this is moot. Definitely didn't do that.

That's exactly what I saw too, and while I'm not sure on the rule, I thought as long as you don't touch the ball while you're OOB, you're OK, but I could be wrong. My understanding was that it's different than football, and you don't have to "reestablish" yourself in bounds.

Either way, the officiating - both last night, and the prior two games - has been in preseason form. Which is to say, terrible. They are making a ton of anticipation calls, and a ton of "aftermath" reaction calls, but they aren't really calling what actually happened. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that a karate kick to the back of the head isn't a foul, but anything less than a static arms-up statue on defense is ...

gumby wrote: I rolled it back and watched last night. But then I deleted the game. Pretty sure he pushed the ball ahead, stepped on the line with one foot, stepped back in with one foot (with the other off the ground) and touched the ball.

Interesting perspective, when he pushed the ball forward I took that as part of his dribble. Can you push the ball to yourself? I know you can't pass to yourself, the only exception being a shot that missed the rim. But a pass assumes you had control, and you can certainly tip the ball to yourself.

Longhorned wrote:How did I miss this thread? My sentiments exactly on the OP.

I was so drunk when I wrote that.

But I feel the same way today. That's a game that pays dividends down the stretch. If you blow out everyone you learn nothing about yourselves. And you certainly don't learn how you'll react to adversity.

Reydituto wrote:All I will say in regards to the offense THIS SEASON, is 1.) it's a work in progress - The issue so far isn't talent, ability, or scheme, it's consistency and coherence, which will improve over time - which 2.) after 3 games, has already shown flashes of real potential. While I believe this team won't hit its offensive stride until conference play, it will become more efficient and productive by season's end than last year, and that some patience in the interim will be rewarded.

I think hindsight will validate this point of view to a significant degree. Especially in regionals and the Final Four, where scores drop significantly.

I don't blame NYCat for feeling frustrated. He sees all the talent we recruit and wishes that they could all come together and just crush teams from the outset.

But they don't, and frankly we have shot like sh*t for too many first-half stretches for too long. Remember all the bunnies that even Solo missed? Glad Miller is remedying that with Trier, and hopefully he'll remember to give Pitts and PJC more run this season off the bench.

But there are still too many starts like that Pac-12 championship game against Colorado in 2012, and after awhile those performances start to wear on you. I have no idea how it must feel for Miller to see such lack of sync or intensity so many first halves.

You have to agree that as the pure shooter we thought we were recruiting, Gabe York has been a disappointment, no matter how much Miller talks him up. He hasn't really earned many starts but keeps getting chances at the beginnings of games to have the hot night. We're all still waiting for it.

Reydituto wrote:That's exactly what I saw too, and while I'm not sure on the rule, I thought as long as you don't touch the ball while you're OOB, you're OK, but I could be wrong. My understanding was that it's different than football, and you don't have to "reestablish" yourself in bounds.

Mine too. I've never heard of a single CBB rule that states you have to re-establish yourself back in bounds to avoid the turnover. Sounds like CYA ref BS to me.

Reydituto wrote:Either way, the officiating - both last night, and the prior two games - has been in preseason form. Which is to say, terrible. They are making a ton of anticipation calls, and a ton of "aftermath" reaction calls, but they aren't really calling what actually happened. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that a karate kick to the back of the head isn't a foul, but anything less than a static arms-up statue on defense is ...

Not to mention the defensive foul calls when the offensive player drives out of control to the bucket, throws a shoulder forward or otherwise initiates contact with the defender. Brandon Ashley continues to get hammered on the arms with no calls and yet gets whistled for playing guys straight up on the blocks.

It's getting disgusting that even the best commentators on the game are ignoring such nitpicking on verticality and hedging. Is it just a ref hard-on for Arizona, or does the whole definition of a "blocking foul" need to be revisited?

Either way, the refs need to get back to calling the actual contact. Zeus would be an NBA lottery pick this year if they had been doing this.

catgrad97 wrote:

Reydituto wrote:All I will say in regards to the offense THIS SEASON, is 1.) it's a work in progress - The issue so far isn't talent, ability, or scheme, it's consistency and coherence, which will improve over time - which 2.) after 3 games, has already shown flashes of real potential. While I believe this team won't hit its offensive stride until conference play, it will become more efficient and productive by season's end than last year, and that some patience in the interim will be rewarded.

I think hindsight will validate this point of view to a significant degree. Especially in regionals and the Final Four, where scores drop significantly.

I don't blame NYCat for feeling frustrated. He sees all the talent we recruit and wishes that they could all come together and just crush teams from the outset.

But they don't, and frankly we have shot like sh*t for too many first-half stretches for too long. Remember all the bunnies that even Solo missed? Glad Miller is remedying that with Trier, and hopefully he'll remember to give Pitts and PJC more run this season off the bench.

But there are still too many starts like that Pac-12 championship game against Colorado in 2012, and after awhile those performances start to wear on you. I have no idea how it must feel for Miller to see such lack of sync or intensity so many first halves.

You have to agree that as the pure shooter we thought we were recruiting, Gabe York has been a disappointment, no matter how much Miller talks him up. He hasn't really earned many starts but keeps getting chances at the beginnings of games to have the hot night. We're all still waiting for it.

Reydituto wrote:That's exactly what I saw too, and while I'm not sure on the rule, I thought as long as you don't touch the ball while you're OOB, you're OK, but I could be wrong. My understanding was that it's different than football, and you don't have to "reestablish" yourself in bounds.

Mine too. I've never heard of a single CBB rule that states you have to re-establish yourself back in bounds to avoid the turnover. Sounds like CYA ref BS to me.

Reydituto wrote:Either way, the officiating - both last night, and the prior two games - has been in preseason form. Which is to say, terrible. They are making a ton of anticipation calls, and a ton of "aftermath" reaction calls, but they aren't really calling what actually happened. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that a karate kick to the back of the head isn't a foul, but anything less than a static arms-up statue on defense is ...

Not to mention the defensive foul calls when the offensive player drives out of control to the bucket, throws a shoulder forward or otherwise initiates contact with the defender. Brandon Ashley continues to get hammered on the arms with no calls and yet gets whistled for playing guys straight up on the blocks.

It's getting disgusting that even the best commentators on the game are ignoring such nitpicking on verticality and hedging. Is it just a ref hard-on for Arizona, or does the whole definition of a "blocking foul" need to be revisited?

Either way, the refs need to get back to calling the actual contact. Zeus would be an NBA lottery pick this year if they had been doing this.

Good stuff G. A few thoughts ...

1.) Agree on York. I think most fans' perception of York - and why he is such a polarizing player for many - are colored by the expectations coming in from HS, as that of a "pure shooter" when we've seen everything but. In fact, he's been an erratic shooter, decent (but not mind-blowingly great) from 3, subpar from 2, somehwat streaky overall and shot selection (for both the shots he takes as well as the shots he passes up) has been spotty at best, yet every time he hits a wide-open 3, I can hear the #yorkcity denizens get rowdy. I'm rooting for him, I think if he's consistently good from 3 (40%+) and merely decent from mid-range, UA's offense ticks up another level. But that remains to be seen.

2.) Slow starts bug me as well. I haven't seen a decent explanation of why they happen, except to say that one common denominator I've seen is shot selection. Miller is recruiting future pros, and part of being a pro is being capable on both sides of the floor. I'm not buying the whole overemphasis-on-defense line of thinking. Nor IMO are Miller's offensive schemes too rigid, as he wants his teams to get down the floor off of misses and turnovers to take advantage of the numbers there, as opposed to taking the air out of the ball and walking it up every time regardless of circumstance. He doesn't mind quick shots as long as they were good shots. He wants efficiency on offense, but not necessarily at the expense of volume. I think the ability of Rondae, Stan and BAsh to finish drives this year will go a long way towards determining how good this year's offense will be.

3.) The best things about Zeus so far this year is his fundamental post defense (he clearly affects opponents' game plans) and his FT shooting, which mostly makes up for the fact that he has been awful at finishing any move he makes, middling with cleaning up the garbage offensively, and has only been adept at tip-ins.

4.) They did revisit the charge/blocking situation, and decided to go back to the interpretation of the year before, which just allows the same issues that last year's changes failed to resolve to persist. Refs are too hard-wired right now to call that situation any other way, real change has to come from the youth levels, HS & AAU on up, with both the players and the next generation of refs. Trying to passively draw a charge and flopping shouldn't be rewarded, as to me that's not playing defense in the spirit of the game. Some contact should be allowed in both directions, and the foul call, if any, should be predicated on control and intent.

The thing I don't get from Arizona fans is why there's this sense of dissatisfaction with the team and Miller, right through last night's game. There really is this sense out there that Arizona should be better than it is right now. November is when experienced mid-major teams filled with upper classmen beat more talented but still amorphous top-ranked teams filled with unrealized potential. And unlike most of these mid-major teams that have success in November, UC Irvine will be a tourney team. They have size, experience, and damn good coaching. Arizona felt its way through everything Irvine sent at them, including the best zone defense most of Arizona's players have ever seen. And then, just like that, faster than you can say "Havasupai", Arizona grabbed Irvine by throat and just killed them in front of everyone. Of course Miller is emphasizing how close the game was for 30 minutes, and luckily for him C.L. Brown from ESPN is eating right out of his hand and telling the world how much Arizona had to fight, as compared to Kentucky who never has to fight and who nobody can hold a candle to (that must have pissed Cal to wake up to this morning). But the reality is that the final score really doesn't lie. Arizona wore them out and figured them out. Moving forward, those are both invaluable. I can't see how some people don't feel good heading toward Maui.

We're SO much better against the zone when Rondae is the man in the middle around the free throw line. Get it to him, he can drive, create, or hit that in-the-lane floater. Brandon isn't too bad there either. But when we DON"T get the ball in the middle, and just pass around the perimeter or try to shoot over it, we're junk against the zone. Offense looks inept. And it also doesn't work when Kaleb flashes into the middle, nothing happens to break down the zone when he does that or gets the ball there.

Also like when we find the seams on the zone along the baseline, very good driving lanes for RHJ, Ashley, or Stanley who can shoot those middle range jumpers in the creases or drive to the basket or get fouled along the way.

Worried York will never be that 40%+ 3pt shooter we desperately need. But impressive defense this year... in a way he's becoming a poor man's version of Nick Johnson, who also never met shooting expectations reliably, but helped shut down the opponent's best perimeter shooter.

York, Elliot, and t j need to shoot threes for a f f run.

Enjoy the ride everyone...it's not just about the destination, but also about the journey.

And it's not just about the beer, but also the pie.

As Coach Miller would say, honor the fucking process.

or

As Coach Miller would say, honor the mutha fucking process.

Longhorned wrote:The thing I don't get from Arizona fans is why there's this sense of dissatisfaction with the team and Miller, right through last night's game. There really is this sense out there that Arizona should be better than it is right now. November is when experienced mid-major teams filled with upper classmen beat more talented but still amorphous top-ranked teams filled with unrealized potential. And unlike most of these mid-major teams that have success in November, UC Irvine will be a tourney team. They have size, experience, and damn good coaching. Arizona felt its way through everything Irvine sent at them, including the best zone defense most of Arizona's players have ever seen. And then, just like that, faster than you can say "Havasupai", Arizona grabbed Irvine by throat and just killed them in front of everyone. Of course Miller is emphasizing how close the game was for 30 minutes, and luckily for him C.L. Brown from ESPN is eating right out of his hand and telling the world how much Arizona had to fight, as compared to Kentucky who never has to fight and who nobody can hold a candle to (that must have pissed Cal to wake up to this morning). But the reality is that the final score really doesn't lie. Arizona wore them out and figured them out. Moving forward, those are both invaluable. I can't see how some people don't feel good heading toward Maui.

I don't get it either. The fans are either grouchy or unrealistic. Miller has done a great job and the team is loaded with talent. As Arizona fans know all too well, talent doesn't always work or work together. Miller has not lost a first round game and had the team to the precipice of a FF twice, once far before any reasonable time table and the other after an injury which should have derailed the season. In Miller I trust.

Arizona has this tradition of basketball that does raise expectations. Three areas of frustration for longtime fans.

1. Lute's teams usually were ahead of others in November. Don't know why, but they were. As a result, we had some great OOC victories against ranked teams (some upsets) and a lot of blowouts. Up the polls we'd go. The difference between our team and other good teams would narrow come March. Now, we're already perched atop the poll, and we don't have as many early season showdowns with really good teams. (Maybe that's good, since we've struggled early). Only two ways to go ... down or stay level.

2. Scoring is down, period. So slow starts are more common. But we're so invested emotionally that it seems to be exclusive to Arizona. Breaking 100 wasn't uncommon. Used to be the threshold for a Spaghetti Co. meal. Now the goal is 80 for free tacos (is that still a thing?).

3. Our second halves are better than our first halves. Flip that in, say, the Irvine game, and there would've been no moments to tighten sphincters. So what if they outscored us by 29-26 in the second half if we led by 20 at the break. A lot of Lute-era games were essentially over by the half. More time to relax and enjoy.

So, Miller sweats more, and so do we. Even if the margins of victory and the overall records are similar. Plus, there's the raised expectation of higher-rated recruiting classes under Miller. This is something fans will have to deal with. Times have changed. A highly rated class can mean an awesome team. But it can also mean a young team, and those take longer to gel.

In any event, I'm not pretending to be Cool McCool. I'm sweating out these first halves, too. Just trying to wrap my mind around frustration.