Bear Down Wildcats

This is a bad loss. Worse than the other two this season, imo.

Time and time again, Sean Miller's teams lose when they should be winning comfortably.

There are going to be all kinds of patient, quixotic responses to this post and this game, and that's fine. I suppose it's part of being a fan. But let's face it: this is the second straight season with a legit top 5 team and they're fading down the stretch. Again.

The conversation has changed from, how many more games will we lose before the tourney, to will we even win the Pac 12?

The longer Miller's at AZ, the more I appreciate Lute Olson.

Miller's ceiling is the Elite Eight and an occasional Pac title, which aren't insignificant achievements, but I think our expectations are higher, aren't they?

Ahh the annual "Question Miller" thread by BC. You'll be back on his nuts after the UCLA game

Losing 1 game is fading down the stretch? Bit early on that.

I guess I disagree with so many things in your post that I'll just pick one item: Did Lute not have losses that should have been wins, including to ASU?

Chill.

But make no mistake.

This loss is bad.

Christ. If this wasnt ever the overreaction to a bad loss

The only, and i mean only knock on miller tonight was him not forcing the issue w his team to force the issue to create turnovers. It was obvious they were gonna make circus shots and we were gonna struggle w stops. I felt this was a game where we needed to turn the pressure up cuz they were sloppy when we asserted ourselves.

In the grand scheme of things, however, this is one loss. How many coaches have top 10 teams EVERY year

Keep telling yourselves "it's all good," everybody.

I guess the real question is, what does this team have to do for you to consider it a "successful season"? Are you fine with falling short in the Pac tourney again and flaming out in the Elite Eight? Because that's more or less what Sean Miller does.

If this thread were a dog I would take it to the desert and put it to sleep.

Beachcat have a beer bro.

Our time will come. Lute had bad losses. Several of them early in the NCAA's. He puts a great team on the floor every year. If u can name five coaches who do what he do an arent within years of a wheelchair u are crazy.

Beachcat97 wrote:Keep telling yourselves "it's all good," everybody.

I guess the real question is, what does this team have to do for you to consider it a "successful season"? Are you fine with falling short in the Pac tourney again and flaming out in the Elite Eight? Because that's more or less what Sean Miller does.

We could never win the Pac 12 tourney and I wouldn't care. It doesn't mean much.

rgdeuce wrote:Beachcat have a beer bro.

Our time will come. Lute had bad losses. Several of them early in the NCAA's. He puts a great team on the floor every year. If u can name five coaches who do what he do an arent within years of a wheelchair u are crazy.

This.

I guess I'm just not seeing the kind of player development, with Miller's teams, that we often see at other schools. Tarc and Ashley are juniors. Are they appreciably better than they were as freshmen? As sophomores? Is this on them, or is some of it on Miller? Or is it simply that not every player is going to "develop" like Nick Johnson did?

Since no one else wants to answer the question, I'll do it. This season is a success if we win the Pac and reach the FF. Anything short of that has to be considered a disappointment, given the recruiting success of the past two seasons and the top five ranking we had to start the season.

Or maybe I'm alone in having this opinion.

Beachcat97 wrote:I guess I'm just not seeing the kind of player development, with Miller's teams, that we often see at other schools. Tarc and Ashley are juniors. Are they appreciably better than they were as freshmen? As sophomores? Is this on them, or is some of it on Miller? Or is it simply that not every player is going to "develop" like Nick Johnson did?

Since no one else wants to answer the question, I'll do it. This season is a success if we win the Pac and reach the FF. Anything short of that has to considered a disappointment, given the recruiting success of the past two seasons and the top five ranking we had to start the season.

Or maybe I'm alone in having this opinion.

I definitely agree with that. It actually looks like Bash has regressed since the end of the non-conference schedule.

Zeus and Bash are mental midgets. Both have the tools to be elite

Beachcat97 wrote:I guess I'm just not seeing the kind of player development, with Miller's teams, that we often see at other schools. Tarc and Ashley are juniors. Are they appreciably better than they were as freshmen? As sophomores? Is this on them, or is some of it on Miller? Or is it simply that not every player is going to "develop" like Nick Johnson did?

Since no one else wants to answer the question, I'll do it. This season is a success if we win the Pac and reach the FF. Anything short of that has to be considered a disappointment, given the recruiting success of the past two seasons and the top five ranking we had to start the season.

Or maybe I'm alone in having this opinion.

I do not have your lofty expectations. I do not think we have the depth to win the PAC-12 tournament. As for the big dance, if this team can get out of the first weekend, it will be a successful season.

az91 wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote: As for the big dance, if this team can get out of the first weekend, it will be a successful season.

That's shocking. Call me foolish, but I really thought AZ hoops had higher expectations than the Sweet Sixteen, especially in seasons where we're ranked as high as we've been.

Beachcat97 wrote:

az91 wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote: As for the big dance, if this team can get out of the first weekend, it will be a successful season.

That's shocking. Call me foolish, but I really thought AZ hoops had higher expectations than the Sweet Sixteen, especially in seasons where we're ranked as high as we've been.

So who do you suggest Arizona hire for the job that could do better than what Sean Miller has done?

Macho Grande wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote:

az91 wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote: As for the big dance, if this team can get out of the first weekend, it will be a successful season.

That's shocking. Call me foolish, but I really thought AZ hoops had higher expectations than the Sweet Sixteen, especially in seasons where we're ranked as high as we've been.

So who do you suggest Arizona hire for the job that could do better than what Sean Miller has done?

How about Tony Bennett?

This is going to sound crazy, but ASU actually played well.

az91 wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote:I guess I'm just not seeing the kind of player development, with Miller's teams, that we often see at other schools. Tarc and Ashley are juniors. Are they appreciably better than they were as freshmen? As sophomores? Is this on them, or is some of it on Miller? Or is it simply that not every player is going to "develop" like Nick Johnson did?

Since no one else wants to answer the question, I'll do it. This season is a success if we win the Pac and reach the FF. Anything short of that has to be considered a disappointment, given the recruiting success of the past two seasons and the top five ranking we had to start the season.

Or maybe I'm alone in having this opinion.

I do not have your lofty expectations. I do not think we have the depth to win the PAC-12 tournament. As for the big dance, if this team can get out of the first weekend, it will be a successful season.

Disagree. I think this is our best chance in years to win the PAC12 tournament. The conference stinks, UCLA is down and we actually have some reasonable depth (York/Ristic/Pitts/PJC) that Miller is actually utilizing this year. In fact, I believe we have a better chance at this point to win the PAC12 tournament than the PAC12 title.

SM's ceiling is national champ. They will play again this year for a FF. No doubt in my mind. Always tough being the alpha dog of the conference.

Beachcat97 wrote:

az91 wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote: As for the big dance, if this team can get out of the first weekend, it will be a successful season.

That's shocking. Call me foolish, but I really thought AZ hoops had higher expectations than the Sweet Sixteen, especially in seasons where we're ranked as high as we've been.

LOL, well, it may be shocking, but look at the true road games we have played. Most of them have been pretty ugly. We still have four more of them, and we might be lucky to go 2-2. The front court has been disappointing, the outside shooting is not there, and except for McConnell, this team does not pass well. Does that sound like a Final Four team to you?

dmjcat wrote:

az91 wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote:I guess I'm just not seeing the kind of player development, with Miller's teams, that we often see at other schools. Tarc and Ashley are juniors. Are they appreciably better than they were as freshmen? As sophomores? Is this on them, or is some of it on Miller? Or is it simply that not every player is going to "develop" like Nick Johnson did?

Since no one else wants to answer the question, I'll do it. This season is a success if we win the Pac and reach the FF. Anything short of that has to be considered a disappointment, given the recruiting success of the past two seasons and the top five ranking we had to start the season.

Or maybe I'm alone in having this opinion.

I do not have your lofty expectations. I do not think we have the depth to win the PAC-12 tournament. As for the big dance, if this team can get out of the first weekend, it will be a successful season.

Disagree. I think this is our best chance in years to win the PAC12 tournament. The conference stinks, UCLA is down and we actually have some reasonable depth (York/Ristic/Pitts/PJC) that Miller is actually utilizing this year. In fact, I believe we have a better chance at this point to win the PAC12 tournament than the PAC12 title.

You are forgetting a team that goes ten deep: Utah.

az91 wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote:I guess I'm just not seeing the kind of player development, with Miller's teams, that we often see at other schools. Tarc and Ashley are juniors. Are they appreciably better than they were as freshmen? As sophomores? Is this on them, or is some of it on Miller? Or is it simply that not every player is going to "develop" like Nick Johnson did?

Since no one else wants to answer the question, I'll do it. This season is a success if we win the Pac and reach the FF. Anything short of that has to be considered a disappointment, given the recruiting success of the past two seasons and the top five ranking we had to start the season.

Or maybe I'm alone in having this opinion.

I do not have your lofty expectations. I do not think we have the depth to win the PAC-12 tournament. As for the big dance, if this team can get out of the first weekend, it will be a successful season.

lol

Senior PG, Stanley Johnson, several 5 star players/potential NBA draft picks=Sweet Sixteen?

WOW

az91 wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote:

az91 wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote: As for the big dance, if this team can get out of the first weekend, it will be a successful season.

That's shocking. Call me foolish, but I really thought AZ hoops had higher expectations than the Sweet Sixteen, especially in seasons where we're ranked as high as we've been.

LOL, well, it may be shocking, but look at the true road games we have played. Most of them have been pretty ugly. We still have four more of them, and we might be lucky to go 2-2. The front court has been disappointing, the outside shooting is not there, and except for McConnell, this team does not pass well. Does that sound like a Final Four team to you?

Nope. So is that a coaching failure? Player failure? Program failure? How are we not in the mix for a FF with the stellar recruiting successes and lofty rankings?

Beachcat97 wrote:

Macho Grande wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote:

az91 wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote: As for the big dance, if this team can get out of the first weekend, it will be a successful season.

That's shocking. Call me foolish, but I really thought AZ hoops had higher expectations than the Sweet Sixteen, especially in seasons where we're ranked as high as we've been.

So who do you suggest Arizona hire for the job that could do better than what Sean Miller has done?

How about Tony Bennett?

How do you know he'd do better? Looking at his head coaching record he's never been to the Elite 8.

Beachcat97 wrote:How about Tony Bennett?

I was a big Tony Bennett guy back in the day (and by back in the day I mean back in early 2008 when Tony had coached all of 40 games and KO was being anointed as our head basketball coach...perhaps I'll start a thread on that and dig up some of those gems from TOS), but from a big Tony guy I don't think I would trade (in some magical land where that was a possibility) Miller for Bennett. I just like Miller, his personality, his commitment, his rebuilding of the program (in all ways) way too much. He's our guy and I don't want anyone else.

Beachcat97 wrote:Keep telling yourselves "it's all good," everybody.

I guess the real question is, what does this team have to do for you to consider it a "successful season"? Are you fine with falling short in the Pac tourney again and flaming out in the Elite Eight? Because that's more or less what Sean Miller does.

I wouldn't say its "All good"....it never is when we lose to the scum in anything.

But to infer that we need to rid ourselves of Miller (you seem to be inferring that, maybe I'm wrong) is way off base IMO. Do you remember the name "Ben Lindsey"???

Any coach that can recruit at Millers level (at AZ, a school not exactly surrounded by heaps of local talent) is a God-Send for the UA. I believe that as a fan base we may be suffering from "Spoiled UCLA fan syndrome". Prior to todays game we had the nations longest streak in the top 10. Anyone who can recruit at Millers level and annually win a very high percentage of games should be held up on a pedestal by UA fans.......period.

Well beachcat, since you already know how the season is going to turn out I guess you can stop watching. I look forward to seeing you start posting again next October, until then, we'll miss you.

Beachcat97 wrote:

az91 wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote:

az91 wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote: As for the big dance, if this team can get out of the first weekend, it will be a successful season.

That's shocking. Call me foolish, but I really thought AZ hoops had higher expectations than the Sweet Sixteen, especially in seasons where we're ranked as high as we've been.

LOL, well, it may be shocking, but look at the true road games we have played. Most of them have been pretty ugly. We still have four more of them, and we might be lucky to go 2-2. The front court has been disappointing, the outside shooting is not there, and except for McConnell, this team does not pass well. Does that sound like a Final Four team to you?

Nope. So is that a coaching failure? Player failure? Program failure? How are we not in the mix for a FF with the stellar recruiting successes and lofty rankings?

I am just trying to be objective. I put it more on player failure. Bash is not the same player he was pre-injury. Zeus has not progressed. RHJ's offensive game has not progressed. Stanley's game is more suited for the NBA. The other freshman have potential, but they are not impact players now.

AZCatGirl wrote:

How do you know he'd do better? Looking at his head coaching record he's never been to the Elite 8.

No, he hasn't. But he's managed to put a FF-caliber team together with vastly inferior inferior talent to what Miller has had to work with. Bennett doesn't have multiple future NBA players on his roster like Miller does.

I'm just getting doubtful about Miller's ability as a teacher and strategist. Talent only takes you so far. And the more years we go without a FF, the easier it gets for teams that *are* reaching the FF (UK, Duke, Louisville, Kansas, etc.) to recruit against us.

Beachcat97 wrote:

AZCatGirl wrote:

How do you know he'd do better? Looking at his head coaching record he's never been to the Elite 8.

No, he hasn't. But he's managed to put a FF-caliber team together with vastly inferior inferior talent to what Miller has had to work with. Bennett doesn't have multiple future NBA players on his roster like Miller does.

I'm just getting doubtful about Miller's ability as a teacher and strategist. Talent only takes you so far. And the more years we go without a FF, the easier it gets for teams that *are* reaching the FF (UK, Duke, Louisville, Kansas, etc.) to recruit against us.

I'm not sure Miller has a serious issue as a teacher/strategist. Lets look at player development.
How exactly does Miller "coach" Tarc to catch the ball??? Thats a physical problem that I don't believe anyone can fix.

Bash has clearly regressed since the foot injury last year which is not unusual for players who suffer season ending injuries (in any sport). How is Miller to blame for Bash's foot injury??

Beachcat97 wrote:

AZCatGirl wrote:

How do you know he'd do better? Looking at his head coaching record he's never been to the Elite 8.

No, he hasn't. But he's managed to put a FF-caliber team together with vastly inferior inferior talent to what Miller has had to work with. Bennett doesn't have multiple future NBA players on his roster like Miller does.

I'm just getting doubtful about Miller's ability as a teacher and strategist. Talent only takes you so far. And the more years we go without a FF, the easier it gets for teams that *are* reaching the FF (UK, Duke, Louisville, Kansas, etc.) to recruit against us.

But we have no idea how any team will do when the tournament starts. You can't just assume Virginia will make it and we won't.

By the way, ASU is 9-8 against us since '08. If you need it.

And Arizona is still ranked #4 according to KenPom. Disgraceful. Fire Miller!

Beachcat97 wrote:
No, he hasn't. But he's managed to put a FF-caliber team together with vastly inferior inferior talent

Sounds an awful lot like what Miller was doing at Xavier before he was hired at Arizona. But unlike Bennett, Miller actually had an Elite Eight to show for it after a few years.

Look, if I've simply got the wrong idea about what our expectations should be, that's fine. I'll make the adjustment and start hoping for top three Pac 12 finishes, no Pac tourney titles, and Sweet Sixteens. I thought we were better than that, and that Miller had the same aspirations as Lute Olson. But it's cool if I'm wrong about this.

In six years Miller has lost to asu four times

Lute lost to Asu seven times in twenty four years

I don't like that, but Miller gets to at least the second weekend every time his team makes the dance

UofACat23 wrote:And Arizona is still ranked #4 according to KenPom. Disgraceful. Fire Miller!

KenPom doesn't think this was a bad loss. So there's that, I guess.

AZCatGirl wrote:

UofACat23 wrote:And Arizona is still ranked #4 according to KenPom. Disgraceful. Fire Miller!

KenPom doesn't think this was a bad loss. So there's that, I guess.

Don't hide behind metics. This was a terrible loss.

Beachcat97 wrote:Look, if I've simply got the wrong idea about what our expectations should be, that's fine. I'll make the adjustment and start hoping for top three Pac 12 finishes, no Pac tourney titles, and Sweet Sixteens. I thought we were better than that, and that Miller had the same aspirations as Lute Olson. But it's cool if I'm wrong about this.

What is wrong with you? We lost a game on the road to a decent team (KenPom# 43) and you're ready to cry and give up on the team.

Unreal.

PHXCATS wrote:

AZCatGirl wrote:

UofACat23 wrote:And Arizona is still ranked #4 according to KenPom. Disgraceful. Fire Miller!

KenPom doesn't think this was a bad loss. So there's that, I guess.

Don't hide behind metics. This was a terrible loss.

Hide behind metrics? You mean... use statistics to help formulate an opinion? You mean don't use objective numbers and instead just make incoherent emotional ramblings like some posters in this thread? I'll stick with KenPom's assessment, thanks.

Some good points here. The most pertinent being that there does seem to be a lack of development of players from last season to this one. And maybe even regression. What happened to Zeus and Ashley? Why didn't Miller pull Zeus when he started laughing after he missed a pass from TJ?

Miller is the right fit for Arizona. He continues to bring in great talent. And I do think he will take us far. I DO NOT think this will be one of those years. And I'm wondering what happened.

UofACat23 wrote:

PHXCATS wrote:

AZCatGirl wrote:

UofACat23 wrote:And Arizona is still ranked #4 according to KenPom. Disgraceful. Fire Miller!

KenPom doesn't think this was a bad loss. So there's that, I guess.

Don't hide behind metics. This was a terrible loss.

Hide behind metrics? You mean... use statistics to help formulate an opinion? You mean don't use objective numbers and instead just make incoherent emotional ramblings like some posters in this thread? I'll stick with KenPom's assessment, thanks.

How many of the asu players would be in a ten man rotation for U of A? Maybe one? That along with the crowd being 40 percent U of A is why I at least believe this to be a bad loss.

PHXCATS wrote:

UofACat23 wrote:

PHXCATS wrote:

AZCatGirl wrote:

UofACat23 wrote:And Arizona is still ranked #4 according to KenPom. Disgraceful. Fire Miller!

KenPom doesn't think this was a bad loss. So there's that, I guess.

Don't hide behind metics. This was a terrible loss.

Hide behind metrics? You mean... use statistics to help formulate an opinion? You mean don't use objective numbers and instead just make incoherent emotional ramblings like some posters in this thread? I'll stick with KenPom's assessment, thanks.

How many of the asu players would be in a ten man rotation for U of A? Maybe one? That along with the crowd being 40 percent U of A is why I at least believe this to be a bad loss.

If it's a "bad loss" any time the more talented team loses, than any loss Arizona plays this year other than Kentucky would be considered a bad loss.

It's like people don't watch basketball on a consistent basis or something... upsets happen to everyone, every year. Miller teams have never played down to their competition in the NCAA tournament, so the fact that we lost a game to a decent (but clearly worse) team on the road isn't really a big deal.

The only problem is that it's ASU, and losing to ASU is never ok. In the grand scheme of things, all 3 of those losses are completely meaningless.

Beachcat97 wrote:

AZCatGirl wrote:

How do you know he'd do better? Looking at his head coaching record he's never been to the Elite 8.

No, he hasn't. But he's managed to put a FF-caliber team together with vastly inferior inferior talent to what Miller has had to work with. Bennett doesn't have multiple future NBA players on his roster like Miller does.

I'm just getting doubtful about Miller's ability as a teacher and strategist. Talent only takes you so far. And the more years we go without a FF, the easier it gets for teams that *are* reaching the FF (UK, Duke, Louisville, Kansas, etc.) to recruit against us.

Your critical reasoning leads me to believe that his ceiling is considerably higher than yours.

So let's replace a guy who has been to 3 Elite 8's, because he recruits really well... With a guy who has never been to an Elite 8 - but only because he recruits at a much lower level. Brilliant strategy.

Today was an awful loss... IMO our 3rd of the season. Disappointing? Undoubtedly. Miller's responsibility? Of course. But not enough to lead me to abandon all hope and write the season off.

And I must say it is amusing to see the revisionist history of how perfect the Lute years were by many fans who probably were not around for many of them. I can imagine the hysteria with the multiple first weekend exits by very highly seeded teams.

Lute got to the FF in his 6th season at Iowa and his 5th season at AZ.

Miller in his 6th season at AZ.

Utah beat ASU by 17 in Tempe.

Beachcat97 wrote:Lute got to the FF in his 6th season at Iowa and his 5th season at AZ.

Yeah, back during a time when talented players stuck around for 4 years instead of leaving after one or two seasons.

Beachcat97 wrote:Lute got to the FF in his 6th season at Iowa and his 5th season at AZ.

Miller in his 6th season at AZ.

I still fail to get what you want. Do you think the UA should can Miller???