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This.ChooChooCat wrote:I imagine we'd look at a transfer of some sort. Numerous guys actually become available by midseason a la Craig Victor. Either that or we just save the scholarship for the next recruiting class. We obviously don't need to fill it any time soon, as we're so deep that we likely will redshirt one guy and maybe two if it makes sense for both parties.
Aren't we deep everywhere but at the 4? Especially on the defensive end?ChooChooCat wrote:I imagine we'd look at a transfer of some sort. Numerous guys actually become available by midseason a la Craig Victor. Either that or we just save the scholarship for the next recruiting class. We obviously don't need to fill it any time soon, as we're so deep that we likely will redshirt one guy and maybe two if it makes sense for both parties.
Shogun_AZ wrote:Aren't we deep everywhere but at the 4? Especially on the defensive end?ChooChooCat wrote:I imagine we'd look at a transfer of some sort. Numerous guys actually become available by midseason a la Craig Victor. Either that or we just save the scholarship for the next recruiting class. We obviously don't need to fill it any time soon, as we're so deep that we likely will redshirt one guy and maybe two if it makes sense for both parties.
Whether we're deep depends on how ready people are to play.Shogun_AZ wrote:Aren't we deep everywhere but at the 4? Especially on the defensive end?ChooChooCat wrote:I imagine we'd look at a transfer of some sort. Numerous guys actually become available by midseason a la Craig Victor. Either that or we just save the scholarship for the next recruiting class. We obviously don't need to fill it any time soon, as we're so deep that we likely will redshirt one guy and maybe two if it makes sense for both parties.
Just for fun, does anyone know what Cal's depth chart looks like, off the top of their head? Would be interesting to compare.Spaceman Spiff wrote:Shogun_AZ wrote:ChooChooCat wrote:
C-Zeus/Ristic
PF-Anderson/Tollefsen/Comanche
SF-Smith/3rd guard
SG-York/Allen/Trier/Pitts (order will vary and they will play together)
PG-PJC/Simon
http://www.californiagoldenblogs.com/20 ... ne-wallaceBeachcat97 wrote:Just for fun, does anyone know what Cal's depth chart looks like, off the top of their head? Would be interesting to compare.
Please let Rooks playCal return a strong group of guards including rising juniors Jabari Bird and Jordan Matthews and leading scorer Tyrone Wallace, who announced his decision to remain in college for another season last week after considering a jump to the NBA. Georgetown transfer guard Stephen Domingo and incoming freshman Davon Dillard, a three-star small forward, will bolster the Bears' perimeter corps. Though Cal loses forwards Christian Behrens, David Kravish and Dwight Tarwater, it brings back seven-footers Kinglsey Okoroh and Kameron Rooks, who sat out last season after tearing the ACL in his left knee. Of course, the primary reason Cal fans will look to next season with more optimism than Martin’s first campaign is Rabb, who projects as an immediate starter with the skills to improve Cal’s frontcourt both offensively and defensively.
If only there were a way ....Beachcat97 wrote:Just for fun, does anyone know what Cal's depth chart looks like, off the top of their head? Would be interesting to compare.Spaceman Spiff wrote:Shogun_AZ wrote:ChooChooCat wrote:
C-Zeus/Ristic
PF-Anderson/Tollefsen/Comanche
SF-Smith/3rd guard
SG-York/Allen/Trier/Pitts (order will vary and they will play together)
PG-PJC/Simon
Cool, thanks. That makes sense.Spaceman Spiff wrote:Whether we're deep depends on how ready people are to play.Shogun_AZ wrote:Aren't we deep everywhere but at the 4? Especially on the defensive end?ChooChooCat wrote:I imagine we'd look at a transfer of some sort. Numerous guys actually become available by midseason a la Craig Victor. Either that or we just save the scholarship for the next recruiting class. We obviously don't need to fill it any time soon, as we're so deep that we likely will redshirt one guy and maybe two if it makes sense for both parties.
C-Zeus/Ristic
PF-Anderson/Tollefsen/Comanche
SF-Smith/3rd guard
SG-York/Allen/Trier/Pitts (order will vary and they will play together)
PG-PJC/Simon
Talk about a murderer's row!Merkin wrote:In 7 years of head coaching at 3 different schools, Cuonzo Martin has one NCAA tourney appearance. Although he did make the S16 that year beating Iowa, UMass and Mercer.
He's 6'9, and I'm not sure why he's not athletic enough to play the 4. 3, I get you, but 4 is in his wheelhouse. Also, I renew my previous objection to a top 50 hs recruit being thought of as a redshirt candidate.ChooChooCat wrote:Talk about a murderer's row!Merkin wrote:In 7 years of head coaching at 3 different schools, Cuonzo Martin has one NCAA tourney appearance. Although he did make the S16 that year beating Iowa, UMass and Mercer.
Also isn't Comanche a 5? I don't think he's capable of defending a 4 from what little I've seen of him. He's not athletic enough to defend college 4s it appears. Either way he's the guy I'm 100% referring to as the obvious redshirt.
I thought he was 6'11 or 6'10 at the shortest. All of rivals, scout, and ESPN have him listed as such. Also being "bouncy" doesn't mean you can defend a college 4 laterally. College 4's are not NBA 4's. They're typically smaller and more athletic laterally. My greatest take away from what his position is comes from the fact that Sean Miller brought in Tollefsen. If he thought Comanche could provide spot minutes at the 4 then he wouldn't have brought in Tollefsen IMO.Spaceman Spiff wrote:He's 6'9, and I'm not sure why he's not athletic enough to play the 4. 3, I get you, but 4 is in his wheelhouse. Also, I renew my previous objection to a top 50 hs recruit being thought of as a redshirt candidate.ChooChooCat wrote:Talk about a murderer's row!Merkin wrote:In 7 years of head coaching at 3 different schools, Cuonzo Martin has one NCAA tourney appearance. Although he did make the S16 that year beating Iowa, UMass and Mercer.
Also isn't Comanche a 5? I don't think he's capable of defending a 4 from what little I've seen of him. He's not athletic enough to defend college 4s it appears. Either way he's the guy I'm 100% referring to as the obvious redshirt.
Ballislife All American Arizona commit Chance Com…: http://youtu.be/lYJe4CSGt0A
Most recent clips, he looks fairly bouncy.
http://247sports.com/Player/Chance-Comanche-26377ChooChooCat wrote:I thought he was 6'11 or 6'10 at the shortest. All of rivals, scout, and ESPN have him listed as such. Also being "bouncy" doesn't mean you can defend a college 4 laterally. College 4's are not NBA 4's. They're typically smaller and more athletic laterally. My greatest take away from what his position is comes from the fact that Sean Miller brought in Tollefsen. If he thought Comanche could provide spot minutes at the 4 then he wouldn't have brought in Tollefsen IMO.Spaceman Spiff wrote:He's 6'9, and I'm not sure why he's not athletic enough to play the 4. 3, I get you, but 4 is in his wheelhouse. Also, I renew my previous objection to a top 50 hs recruit being thought of as a redshirt candidate.ChooChooCat wrote:Talk about a murderer's row!Merkin wrote:In 7 years of head coaching at 3 different schools, Cuonzo Martin has one NCAA tourney appearance. Although he did make the S16 that year beating Iowa, UMass and Mercer.
Also isn't Comanche a 5? I don't think he's capable of defending a 4 from what little I've seen of him. He's not athletic enough to defend college 4s it appears. Either way he's the guy I'm 100% referring to as the obvious redshirt.
Ballislife All American Arizona commit Chance Com…: http://youtu.be/lYJe4CSGt0A
Most recent clips, he looks fairly bouncy.
Good points all around, although I will point out that Brandon Ashley's superior length was done in by a superior athlete in Christian Wood and we could also say the same for whatever the undersized 4 man he was defending on Oregon State as well. Either way we'll see for ourselves in a couple of years. In regards to the redshirt, you're right no freshman has ever redshirted under Miller, but we're sitting two deep at both post positions. If there was ever a time for a guy to redshirt who desperately needs a year of improving his body under an aggressive weight training program it's this upcoming year that's for sure. I just don't see where he could even get Gabe York freshman year minutes barring an injury of course.Spaceman Spiff wrote:http://247sports.com/Player/Chance-Comanche-26377ChooChooCat wrote:I thought he was 6'11 or 6'10 at the shortest. All of rivals, scout, and ESPN have him listed as such. Also being "bouncy" doesn't mean you can defend a college 4 laterally. College 4's are not NBA 4's. They're typically smaller and more athletic laterally. My greatest take away from what his position is comes from the fact that Sean Miller brought in Tollefsen. If he thought Comanche could provide spot minutes at the 4 then he wouldn't have brought in Tollefsen IMO.Spaceman Spiff wrote:He's 6'9, and I'm not sure why he's not athletic enough to play the 4. 3, I get you, but 4 is in his wheelhouse. Also, I renew my previous objection to a top 50 hs recruit being thought of as a redshirt candidate.ChooChooCat wrote:Talk about a murderer's row!Merkin wrote:In 7 years of head coaching at 3 different schools, Cuonzo Martin has one NCAA tourney appearance. Although he did make the S16 that year beating Iowa, UMass and Mercer.
Also isn't Comanche a 5? I don't think he's capable of defending a 4 from what little I've seen of him. He's not athletic enough to defend college 4s it appears. Either way he's the guy I'm 100% referring to as the obvious redshirt.
Ballislife All American Arizona commit Chance Com…: http://youtu.be/lYJe4CSGt0A
Most recent clips, he looks fairly bouncy.
That has 6'9. Player heights, though...who knows. The NBA combine is always fun for seeing who got super inflated heights.
While there isn't a 1/1 correlation between jumping and lateral quickness, unless you've seen Comanche in contexts I haven't, YouTube mixtapes and allstar games probably have as much indication of defensive potential as jumping.
I actually feel the opposite about lateral speed vs length in the pack line. Being very mobile isn't nearly as important as fundamentals and length. The goals are to stop lanes to the rim and force contested jumpers, not to use lateral quickness to generate ball pressure.
I think Tollefsen is the known quantity. Comanche is an unknown because he is changing levels and needs physical maturity. That said, (and I know I've said this before, probably ad nauseam) how many freshmen have redshirted under Miller and how many top 50 recruits redshirt? I'm not saying he gets major minutes. It wouldn't shock me if he had a Gabe York like freshman year.
HI GUMBY!!!!gumby wrote:Recruiting pitch : "Wanna be our third option at the 4, with the possibility of future advancement?"
Recruit: "Have we returned to the 80s?"
Excellent call on Cook.gumby wrote:Elgin Cook, Oregon, was a tough cover for Ashley.
As for a Comanche redshirt, that's less likely with everyone but Tarc leaving. I don't believe coaches care what your high school rating was in suggesting those. If there were a list of Top 50s who redshirted (or didn't), I don't believe they'd consult it. Have we ever had one? Don't think so, but the situation just never arose.
It's a case-by-case decision based on what you bring to the table as a collegian. If Tollefsen were strictly a 4 (and I don't think he is), I would think a Comanche redshirt would be possible. As long as there isn't a pattern, it shouldn't hurt recruiting (if that's the concern).
My point is more that if you're a top 50 guy, you were fairly highly sought after. You had options and probably a fair number of people telling you that you're pretty good at basketball, along with other ego stroking. To have that change to "by the way, we don't think you're gonna play at all, so you should redshirt" doesn't go well. Most HS players are happier with some role.gumby wrote:Elgin Cook, Oregon, was a tough cover for Ashley.
As for a Comanche redshirt, that's less likely with everyone but Tarc leaving. I don't believe coaches care what your high school rating was in suggesting those. If there were a list of Top 50s who redshirted (or didn't), I don't believe they'd consult it. Have we ever had one? Don't think so, but the situation just never arose.
It's a case-by-case decision based on what you bring to the table as a collegian. If Tollefsen were strictly a 4 (and I don't think he is), I would think a Comanche redshirt would be possible. As long as there isn't a pattern, it shouldn't hurt recruiting (if that's the concern).
Maybe Miller recruited him with the possibility of red shirting on the table? I assume every one is more than aware of his weaknesses at this point (size). Maybe it's not unreasonable to expect that Arizona went over all possibilities with him and his camp. You also have to accept the fact that he may be top 50 not because of the player he is, but rather the player he could become. I think it's pretty obvious he didn't commit to Arizona to be a star off the bat.Spaceman Spiff wrote:My point is more that if you're a top 50 guy, you were fairly highly sought after. You had options and probably a fair number of people telling you that you're pretty good at basketball, along with other ego stroking. To have that change to "by the way, we don't think you're gonna play at all, so you should redshirt" doesn't go well. Most HS players are happier with some role.gumby wrote:Elgin Cook, Oregon, was a tough cover for Ashley.
As for a Comanche redshirt, that's less likely with everyone but Tarc leaving. I don't believe coaches care what your high school rating was in suggesting those. If there were a list of Top 50s who redshirted (or didn't), I don't believe they'd consult it. Have we ever had one? Don't think so, but the situation just never arose.
It's a case-by-case decision based on what you bring to the table as a collegian. If Tollefsen were strictly a 4 (and I don't think he is), I would think a Comanche redshirt would be possible. As long as there isn't a pattern, it shouldn't hurt recruiting (if that's the concern).
Managing egos is a big deal for a coach, and you expect a top 50 level guy to come with at least some ego. Not torpedoing that relationship and getting Comanche to stick it out is a significant benefit to the program in addition to being negative recruiting fodder if he leaves.
I think a top 50 guy probably expects he has a shot at PT. If it's a decided redshirt, you hear early, like Korcheck. I have no insider knowledge, but I really doubt Miller recruited Comanche by putting a redshirt on the table.
Well there's the issue, Comanche isn't a big 4, if he ever did play the 4 next year he'd merely be a tall 4. Ashley is at least 2 inches shorter than Comanche and has about 40lbs on him. So as much as you'd like to compare them they don't compare. Yes we also beat Oregon by beating them at every other position, but that doesn't mean Cook didn't have a significant advantage over Ashley and utilized it against him.Spaceman Spiff wrote:ChooChoo, on the stretch 4 point, most players give up something. The smaller, quicker guys can get hammered by a big 4. Cook is a good example of how there are upsides and downsides. We beat Oregon's ass last year by playing to our strengths. Also, if Oregon wanted to run their offense through Cook and not Young, I figure Miller would be happy as a pig in slop.
Against a team with a true stretch 4 who has explosive potential, Comanche (especially right off) probably doesn't play. Tollefsen and Smith can cover. It's always like that to some extent, though. Rondae and Stan were our stretch 4 adjustment crew last year. That doesn't mean we don't start by emphasizing our strengths, though, especially length and size.
Those last two sentences are basically my thoughts. I get why people think he should redshirt, but I'm just skeptical it happens.ChooChooCat wrote:Well there's the issue, Comanche isn't a big 4, if he ever did play the 4 next year he'd merely be a tall 4. Ashley is at least 2 inches shorter than Comanche and has about 40lbs on him. So as much as you'd like to compare them they don't compare. Yes we also beat Oregon by beating them at every other position, but that doesn't mean Cook didn't have a significant advantage over Ashley and utilized it against him.Spaceman Spiff wrote:ChooChoo, on the stretch 4 point, most players give up something. The smaller, quicker guys can get hammered by a big 4. Cook is a good example of how there are upsides and downsides. We beat Oregon's ass last year by playing to our strengths. Also, if Oregon wanted to run their offense through Cook and not Young, I figure Miller would be happy as a pig in slop.
Against a team with a true stretch 4 who has explosive potential, Comanche (especially right off) probably doesn't play. Tollefsen and Smith can cover. It's always like that to some extent, though. Rondae and Stan were our stretch 4 adjustment crew last year. That doesn't mean we don't start by emphasizing our strengths, though, especially length and size.
Why can't Tollefsen and Smith cover the back up 4 in general full time? Why would Miller even go out of his way to create minutes for Comanche at the 4? I mean we had a real 4 last year on the bench in Victor and Miller sure didn't go out of his way to create minutes for him in games that weren't blowouts. He instead turned to Rondae to be the back up 4, so why does he need another 4 when he has Tollefsen now? We have enough length and size without Comanche. From what I've seen it's not in Miller's make up to play Comanche much next year. He may not redshirt, but that sure doesn't mean he'll play a single meaningful minute all year.
Comanche should redshirt, top 50 recruit in a weak class or not, but I get that redshirts are seen as a plague nowadays in the transfer culture. So maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part.
It can be a good thing, but it's burnt the second he hits the floor in a real game. Even if things aren't looking like he's gonna get time, does he get on board with the redshirt before he sees the floor? We should blow a few teams out in our first few games. That's when it all has to happen by.gumby wrote:I also don't believe he was recruited with the redshirt on the table. My view is that this is a consideration AFTER seeing what he does early on in college, when the H.S. rating (not always accurate) can't obscure the obvious. If he is humbled, you have the talk. If he is still insistent, then what? Play him anyway, because he might have hurt feelings? Of course not.
The redshirt can be a good thing,
Fair enough. Like I said, I totally get your perspective. In an ideal world, a lot more kids would redshirt and be patient. Today, though, 40% transfer within 2 years.ChooChooCat wrote:I think common sense wins here and he does redshirt, but if he doesn't due to your more than solid reasoning, the beers are on me Spiff.
We've narrowed this to when it occurs, if he does. Works for me. Case by case. My overarching point is to not preclude this because of high school ranking.Spaceman Spiff wrote:It can be a good thing, but it's burnt the second he hits the floor in a real game. Even if things aren't looking like he's gonna get time, does he get on board with the redshirt before he sees the floor? We should blow a few teams out in our first few games. That's when it all has to happen by.gumby wrote:I also don't believe he was recruited with the redshirt on the table. My view is that this is a consideration AFTER seeing what he does early on in college, when the H.S. rating (not always accurate) can't obscure the obvious. If he is humbled, you have the talk. If he is still insistent, then what? Play him anyway, because he might have hurt feelings? Of course not.
The redshirt can be a good thing,
If he doesn't want to redshirt, I don't think you forcibly redshirt him. You give him the garbage time minutes York, Victor, Peters and Bejarano got. Then, you see what happens.
Didn't mean to preclude it. Anything is possible, I just think it's extremely unlikely.gumby wrote:We've narrowed this to when it occurs, if he does. Works for me. Case by case. My overarching point is to not preclude this because of high school ranking.Spaceman Spiff wrote:It can be a good thing, but it's burnt the second he hits the floor in a real game. Even if things aren't looking like he's gonna get time, does he get on board with the redshirt before he sees the floor? We should blow a few teams out in our first few games. That's when it all has to happen by.gumby wrote:I also don't believe he was recruited with the redshirt on the table. My view is that this is a consideration AFTER seeing what he does early on in college, when the H.S. rating (not always accurate) can't obscure the obvious. If he is humbled, you have the talk. If he is still insistent, then what? Play him anyway, because he might have hurt feelings? Of course not.
The redshirt can be a good thing,
If he doesn't want to redshirt, I don't think you forcibly redshirt him. You give him the garbage time minutes York, Victor, Peters and Bejarano got. Then, you see what happens.
Exactly. If you ask him, and he says no, that's fine, just as long as he knows he is at the end of the bench. Either way we get a more experienced player for next years team.gumby wrote:I also don't believe he was recruited with the redshirt on the table. My view is that this is a consideration AFTER seeing what he does early on in college, when the H.S. rating (not always accurate) can't obscure the obvious. If he is humbled, you have the talk. If he is still insistent, then what? Play him anyway, because he might have hurt feelings? Of course not.
The redshirt can be a good thing,