Justin Simon gone

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:29 am

No surprise here.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:31 am

North Carolina and Kansas can keep their guys around for 4 years. Arizona can't keep their developmental players around more than 1. God dammit man.

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:34 am

5-star developmental players are rare, though.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:35 am

Fudge. I really, really liked his potential. I can understand why he decided to leave, though. Best of luck to Simon.

Main Event · Post by **Main Event** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:36 am

I think he's gonna be a stud in a few years. Sucks

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:41 am

Main Event wrote:I think he's gonna be a stud in a few years. Sucks

He's going to be sooooooo good. I just don't think Arizona is going to be the place for quality multi-year wings and point guards anymore. Those positions will reload continually with top talent.

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:41 am

Since he has to take a redshirt anyway, too bad he couldn't take one at UA.

NYCat · Post by **NYCat** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:47 am

He was a composite 4* ranked #34, Scout over ranked him as he was always a mid to high 4* with a potential to be a 5*.

I can't help but read into having to compete with 2 more talented wings that have yet to commit.

Anyway we likely lost Simon & Trier, hindsight is 20/20 but would've love to have Dorsey as OAD.

billk78 · Post by **billk78** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:02 am

NYCat wrote:He was a composite 4* ranked #34, Scout over ranked him as he was always a mid to high 4* with a potential to be a 5*.

I can't help but read into having to compete with 2 more talented wings that have yet to commit.

Anyway we likely lost Simon & Trier, hindsight is 20/20 but would've love to have Dorsey as OAD.

Is it assumed Trier is gone at this point?

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:10 am

Hansen doesn't think too much of Simon's potential.

billk78 wrote: Is it assumed Trier is gone at this point?

With the new rules, I don't think anyone would be surprised if he declares, with an option of coming back. He would be quite foolish to sign with an agent unless he gets a guarantee. Or if he just hates school.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:13 am

billk78 wrote:
NYCat wrote:He was a composite 4* ranked #34, Scout over ranked him as he was always a mid to high 4* with a potential to be a 5*.

I can't help but read into having to compete with 2 more talented wings that have yet to commit.

Anyway we likely lost Simon & Trier, hindsight is 20/20 but would've love to have Dorsey as OAD.
Is it assumed Trier is gone at this point?

Given his current draft projections, I don't know why it would be unless he just is not interested in a soph year period.

NYCat · Post by **NYCat** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:16 am

Smart thing would be to stay and play with better talent, but he's never stayed in one school for more than one year (high school). And idk that Simon leaving means anything to Trier as Trier would've been ahead in the depth chart anyway.

I thought Dorsey was better than Trier and he's not getting better draftability -- Isaiah Brisco, Daniel Hamilton, are in danger of not getting drafted and those guys aren't hiring agents.

KaibabKat · Post by **KaibabKat** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:36 am

So, the knock on the kid is he can't shoot?

Justin Simon: 2015-16 points/field goal attempt = 1.22.

Gabe York: 2015-16 points/field goal attempt = 1.22.

Okey Dokey Greg.

NYCat · Post by **NYCat** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:45 am

Field goal attempts can be dunks, layups etc. Not the same as shooting.

He was 9-21 on FTs (.429%), FTs never lie. York was at .756%

Aaron Gordon had a high FG% but he couldn't shoot and that was obvious, his really low FT% showed that.

azcat49 · Post by **azcat49** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:50 am

SDSU would be a good spot for him. They post Shepard and Simon was from that area I think

cpt · Post by **cpt** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:53 am

Any chance Sean let him go? Not that he was pushed out but that no real effort was made to keep him?

gronk4heisman · Post by **gronk4heisman** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:02 am

cpt wrote:Any chance Sean let him go? Not that he was pushed out but that no real effort was made to keep him?

Not sure why he would, we aren't short on scholarships and could see a lot of guys leave after next season at which point a player going into his third year with the program would be a huge help.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:05 am

KS/KA/PJC
RA/TF
RS
LM
DR/CC

And if we add JJ this week...Bill Walton is going to shoot rainbows out of his eyes.

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:08 am

cpt wrote:Any chance Sean let him go? Not that he was pushed out but that no real effort was made to keep him?

CSM putting Simon out there with the walk ons in blow outs is probably a good indicator that it was mutual. Hazzard played more than Simon did in the blowout of Stanford.

We will never hear about the end of season one on one with CSM but don't think Miller encouraged him to stay all that much.

SCCats · Post by **SCCats** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:18 am

A guy in that 15 to 35ish range gone after one year

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:25 am

Merkin wrote:
cpt wrote:Any chance Sean let him go? Not that he was pushed out but that no real effort was made to keep him?
CSM putting Simon out there with the walk ons in blow outs is probably a good indicator that it was mutual. Hazzard played more than Simon did in the blowout of Stanford.

We will never hear about the end of season one on one with CSM but don't think Miller encouraged him to stay all that much.

By Stanford, I'd assume the decision was pretty much made. It's hard to imagine the tipping point being after that.

I'm not so sure that Miller ever would have pushed him out so much as acknowledging that if he doesn't see a future here, we'd rather let him go then get heavyhanded in keeping him. Ferguson is a very similar player to Simon role-wise unless and until Simon becomes a pg. If we have a good shot with TF, at what point is it beneficial to any party to try to get Simon back if he is not interested in being here.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:26 am

Merkin wrote:
cpt wrote:Any chance Sean let him go? Not that he was pushed out but that no real effort was made to keep him?
CSM putting Simon out there with the walk ons in blow outs is probably a good indicator that it was mutual. Hazzard played more than Simon did in the blowout of Stanford.

We will never hear about the end of season one on one with CSM but don't think Miller encouraged him to stay all that much.

Tough because that was senior night. Five seniors needed great minutes on their big night. Though there was plenty of points before that where I was thinking, lets see Simon. Who knows though, could be some behind the scenes stuff we will never know about.

catgrad97 · Post by **catgrad97** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:44 am

We need to recruit a three- to four-star scrappy point guard who will be here for the program to develop.

SCCats · Post by **SCCats** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:54 am

catgrad97 wrote:We need to recruit a three- to four-star scrappy point guard who will be here for the program to develop.

Yup. We probably need to look at that idea with centers too (for this Chance is great). 2/3/4s (combo 4s) we seem to be able to bring in high level talent whenever we want.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:02 am

catgrad97 wrote:We need to recruit a three- to four-star scrappy point guard who will be here for the program to develop.

You mean like PJC?

Sorry, not meaning this about you, it's just that the developmental PG who gives us four years is exactly what we were shooting for in PJC, and he is an example of how there is no guarantee on guys like that.

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:23 am

By all accounts a good kid. Sure, shooting (both by jumper and by the line) was an issue, but Hansen's takes are well...Hansen's...take em for what they are worth.

Playing time is playing time. It's always an issue, even when you are told that it isn't. Players want to be in the game, and then once they are in the game, they want the ball.

Good luck to Justin, he'll do well somewhere on the west coast.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:26 am

Olsondogg wrote:By all accounts a good kid. Sure, shooting (both by jumper and by the line) was an issue, but Hansen's takes are well...Hansen's...take em for what they are worth.

Playing time is playing time. It's always an issue, even when you are told that it isn't. Players want to be in the game, and then once they are in the game, they want the ball.

Good luck to Justin, he'll do well somewhere on the west coast.

If I had to pick a destination for Simon, I'd go with Texas. He's made for a Havoc system like Shaka's, and we don't have to face them.

Not that I have any knowledge of where he's considering.

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:30 am

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Olsondogg wrote:By all accounts a good kid. Sure, shooting (both by jumper and by the line) was an issue, but Hansen's takes are well...Hansen's...take em for what they are worth.

Playing time is playing time. It's always an issue, even when you are told that it isn't. Players want to be in the game, and then once they are in the game, they want the ball.

Good luck to Justin, he'll do well somewhere on the west coast.
If I had to pick a destination for Simon, I'd go with Texas. He's made for a Havoc system like Shaka's, and we don't have to face them.

Not that I have any knowledge of where he's considering.

It's gotta be more west IMO. LIke a Mountain West/WCC school. SDSU, Zags or UNLV or something like that.

SCCats · Post by **SCCats** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:39 am

Olsondogg wrote:It's gotta be more west IMO. LIke a Mountain West/WCC school. SDSU, Zags or UNLV or something like that.

This is part of the game that others have mentioned and that irks me too. I don't want to be too specific about the school, but it's ok to go to the Zags or SDSU and develop but it's not cool to stay at Arizona and develop.

Caveat: Unless the player thinks he'll never be a starter here.

NYCat · Post by **NYCat** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:48 am

According to 97cats' let's talk '17 thread, Troy Brown (PG) & DJ Harvey (SG) could be the next players up. Both are top 20 players and 5*s. One or two of Kobi, Ferguson or Rawle also could come back.

Limited time to sit behind players who are more developed on the offensive side, he's just too raw. And he's not a true 1 or 2, more of an undersized 3 wing.

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:50 am

SCCats wrote:
Olsondogg wrote:It's gotta be more west IMO. LIke a Mountain West/WCC school. SDSU, Zags or UNLV or something like that.
This is part of the game that others have mentioned and that irks me too. I don't want to be too specific about the school, but it's ok to go to the Zags or SDSU and develop but it's not cool to stay at Arizona and develop.

Caveat: Unless the player thinks he'll never be a starter here.

When you can't beat out Tollefsen for a spot, and you look at what Miller is going to bring in year in and out, you look at the minutes. I get it. I can't really knock a kid for wanting more playing time.

This ain't someone taking the advice of someone telling them that Arizona was a pit stop to glory, leaving Arizona behind the 8 ball...

catgrad97 · Post by **catgrad97** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:50 am

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
catgrad97 wrote:We need to recruit a three- to four-star scrappy point guard who will be here for the program to develop.
You mean like PJC?

Sorry, not meaning this about you, it's just that the developmental PG who gives us four years is exactly what we were shooting for in PJC, and he is an example of how there is no guarantee on guys like that.

The problem with that theory is that PJC wasn't the "project" Miller was shooting for from the beginning and only emerged late once his posse pushed him to the forefront. We had other options who didn't have a six-foot ceiling and wouldn't necessarily get blown by.

I'm talking about more of a true OKG, for lack of a better basketball term. Doesn't mean that you bypass the four- or five-star who really wants to be a Wildcat, nor that you hold out every year for a McConnell.

But point guard is such a pivotal position and needs options who are competitors like Miller to at least push the other talent every season--like what I thought the program was getting in Pitts. So find another Van Vleet or Ron Baker, like Gregg Marshall did, or a Butler-type guard from their FF trips under Stevens.

Combo guards are fine, as long as they rise to the top at point and aren't just our default when a Josiah Turner falls through. But we're not in that time anymore when you can just slide over Matt Muehlebach or Reggie Geary and get to the Sweet 16 behind a player like that at the 1.

As of now, the pendulum needs to swing back a little to include that four-year, floor-burn guard who won't be outhustled and will keep the other four players on the floor running their cuts.

NYCat · Post by **NYCat** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:54 am

Laval Lucas-Perry

Garland Judkins

Kyle Fogg

Jordin Mayes

Daniel Dillon

Momo (more suited for Iona type program)

I mean more often than not these players are low ranked for legitimate reasons. Your not going find a TJ and be able to anticipate he'll develop into a power conference capable player. They'll most likely end up riding the end of the bench.

An Aaron Craft type is the best we can hope for, he was a 4 star -- stayed 3 years and played unbelievably. Unless Miller can show he can develop guards at an elite Lute-esque level, we're better off with the highly talented kids.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:00 am

Olsondogg wrote:
SCCats wrote:
Olsondogg wrote:It's gotta be more west IMO. LIke a Mountain West/WCC school. SDSU, Zags or UNLV or something like that.
This is part of the game that others have mentioned and that irks me too. I don't want to be too specific about the school, but it's ok to go to the Zags or SDSU and develop but it's not cool to stay at Arizona and develop.

Caveat: Unless the player thinks he'll never be a starter here.
When you can't beat out Tollefsen for a spot, and you look at what Miller is going to bring in year in and out, you look at the minutes. I get it. I can't really knock a kid for wanting more playing time.

This ain't someone taking the advice of someone telling them that Arizona was a pit stop to glory, leaving Arizona behind the 8 ball...

If it means anything, if I had a time machine and control over minutes, I would go back in time and give Simon all of Tollefsen's minutes.

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:27 am

Simon had 14 turnovers in 180 minutes and 6 assists.

Tollefsen had 19 TOs in 744 minutes and 44 assists.

Simon:

“I enjoyed my year at the University of Arizona,” Simon said in a statement. “I would like to thank my coaching staff, teammates and the incredible fans here for all they did for me. My decision to transfer is centered on playing time. I would like a bigger role as a basketball player. Hopefully, I will be able to find this at my next program.”

catgrad97 · Post by **catgrad97** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:34 am

NYCat wrote:Laval Lucas-Perry

Garland Judkins

Kyle Fogg

Jordin Mayes

Daniel Dillon

Momo (more suited for Iona type program)

I mean more often than not these players are low ranked for legitimate reasons.

Yes, but why was Fogg the exception? Because he wanted to win at the highest level of college, he was willing to work hard for his place on the team and never approached the college game like a free agent who folded like a deck chair under adversity.

That describes the rest of your list, with the exception of Momo for the most part, to a T. Minimal commitment. Mayes was just willing to let a stress fracture his freshman year define his full-ride scholarship. His eventual ceiling said as much about his character as his skill level.

But I'm speaking as a guy who was all in about the U of A from the time he was eight years old, regardless of all the opposition and ostracism from ASU fans. I don't presume other recruits will have that level of devotion, but there are certainly plenty of balls-out, smart point guards out there with chips on their shoulders.

NYCat wrote: Your not going find a TJ and be able to anticipate he'll develop into a power conference capable player. They'll most likely end up riding the end of the bench.

An Aaron Craft type is the best we can hope for, he was a 4 star -- stayed 3 years and played unbelievably. Unless Miller can show he can develop guards at an elite Lute-esque level, we're better off with the highly talented kids.

For the most part, I agree with you.

I'm just saying that a program without some sort of physical and/or mental resiliency, in the Pac-12, eventually fades, no matter how many recruiting banners the Internet says it should hang.

It is happening to UCLA. Happened to Oregon, too, between Kent's peak in '04 and Altman's second season.

Having a head coach who possesses it is not enough. He doesn't play the games. He needs that "coach on the floor."

If we could go back to that active team, like IMHO Miller aspires for, that rewards who wins the battles to get open rather than who showcases their skills the most, this program could be its most dangerous.

As it is, Miller finds himself dealing with the perception that his program will bleed one to two recruits a year because the whole of the program can never become something more than the sum of its parts.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:45 am

Merkin wrote:Simon had 14 turnovers in 180 minutes and 6 assists.

Tollefsen had 19 TOs in 744 minutes and 44 assists.

Simon:

“I enjoyed my year at the University of Arizona,” Simon said in a statement. “I would like to thank my coaching staff, teammates and the incredible fans here for all they did for me. My decision to transfer is centered on playing time. I would like a bigger role as a basketball player. Hopefully, I will be able to find this at my next program.”

I don't bear any ill will towards Tollefsen, but Tollefsen's hallmark here was not doing anything. Not many TO's, not many points, not many stops, not many assists, just existing on the floor for a while.

I think that's an honest statement from Simon, and it's hard not to see his decision as logical.

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:50 am

I will remember Tollefsen's FT's in the PAC tourney...that's about it.

NYCat · Post by **NYCat** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:59 am

Tollefson was a black hole on offense, he would've gotten minimal minutes as a spell if we had Smith healthy.

dirtbags · Post by **dirtbags** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:32 pm

bummer about simon, sad to see him go. i agree that he'll be a stud somewhere else in a couple of seasons. hansen has a legit point about simon's shot, but that can be developed, and CSM seemed to imagine JS as a future RHJ and perhaps our defensive stopper -- so who will that be next season?

best of luck to simon, wherever he ends up. i'm sure his phone is blowing the f up right now.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:30 pm

ChooChooCat wrote:North Carolina and Kansas can keep their guys around for 4 years. Arizona can't keep their developmental players around more than 1. God dammit man.

The list of developmental players staying is a lot longer than the list of them leaving after one year. So maybe you wrote this too quickly? You know, before the thought could develop.

It's an unsurprising development. Wouldn't have happened had recruiting been as bad as people feared it was going to be back in the fall. Now that it looks like a great recruiting year, the complaints turn to the players leaving because they don't think they can compete for PT.

As Steven Wright says, "Can't have everything. Where would you put it?"

az91 · Post by **az91** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:33 pm

NYCat wrote:He was a composite 4* ranked #34, Scout over ranked him as he was always a mid to high 4* with a potential to be a 5*.

I can't help but read into having to compete with 2 more talented wings that have yet to commit.

Anyway we likely lost Simon & Trier, hindsight is 20/20 but would've love to have Dorsey as OAD.

I am not overly upset about Simon leaving, but I definitely wish we had stuck with Dorsey instead of going with Trier/Simon.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:41 pm

KaibabKat wrote:
So, the knock on the kid is he can't shoot?

Justin Simon: 2015-16 points/field goal attempt = 1.22.

Gabe York: 2015-16 points/field goal attempt = 1.22.

Okey Dokey Greg.

Perfect example of stats without context. So I'm to believe they are equivalent shooters?
Damn that Miller for not running down screens for Justin Simon, so he could pop out and drain threes.

Jefe · Post by **Jefe** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:40 pm

Really bummed about this. Was hoping to watch him for 4 years. Someone is getting a great player

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:23 pm

az91 wrote:
NYCat wrote:He was a composite 4* ranked #34, Scout over ranked him as he was always a mid to high 4* with a potential to be a 5*.

I can't help but read into having to compete with 2 more talented wings that have yet to commit.

Anyway we likely lost Simon & Trier, hindsight is 20/20 but would've love to have Dorsey as OAD.
I am not overly upset about Simon leaving, but I definitely wish we had stuck with Dorsey instead of going with Trier/Simon.

I don't see it this way. Trier was at least Dorsey's equal.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/pla ... ier-1.html" target="_blank

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/pla ... sey-1.html" target="_blank

Trier was more efficient as a scorer by a good bit and Dorsey had him by a bit in assists and rebounding.

Add in Smith and we made the right choice. It doesn't feel like it bc Oregon was better than us this year.

CalStateTempe · Post by **CalStateTempe** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:38 pm

SCCats wrote:
Olsondogg wrote:It's gotta be more west IMO. LIke a Mountain West/WCC school. SDSU, Zags or UNLV or something like that.
This is part of the game that others have mentioned and that irks me too. I don't want to be too specific about the school, but it's ok to go to the Zags or SDSU and develop but it's not cool to stay at Arizona and develop.

Caveat: Unless the player thinks he'll never be a starter here.

SCC bringing it strong today.

Enjoy reading and agreeing with your takes in this and the other thread.

midnightx · Post by **midnightx** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:45 pm

Is this about the lack of playing time during the season, or concerns about getting any substantive playing time in the future? His athleticism was evident when he did get on the court; he seemed to have potential, but needed time to develop. Hope it works out for him in another program.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:54 pm

midnightx wrote:Is this about the lack of playing time during the season, or concerns about getting any substantive playing time in the future? His athleticism was evident when he did get on the court; he seemed to have potential, but needed time to develop. Hope it works out for him in another program.

Both, I would think. It's hard not to see getting Alkins and possibly Ferguson or JJ and not see that resigning him to very little playing time next year.

I don't blame him. I'm sure he has aspirations of playing at the next level, and more time and exposure matters for that. He wasn't likely to see the floor next year, and 2017 is a long way away for no particular guarantee.

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:05 pm

gumby wrote:
KaibabKat wrote:
So, the knock on the kid is he can't shoot?

Justin Simon: 2015-16 points/field goal attempt = 1.22.

Gabe York: 2015-16 points/field goal attempt = 1.22.

Okey Dokey Greg.
Perfect example of stats without context. So I'm to believe they are equivalent shooters?
Damn that Miller for not running down screens for Justin Simon, so he could pop out and drain threes.

Kaibab, you're about 0 for 3000 on bothering to respond to objections to your posts. Do you just throw arguments out there without agreeing with them yourself, and then when we respond say, "Ha! I knew he couldn't resist pointing out the obvious!"

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:11 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
az91 wrote:
NYCat wrote:He was a composite 4* ranked #34, Scout over ranked him as he was always a mid to high 4* with a potential to be a 5*.

I can't help but read into having to compete with 2 more talented wings that have yet to commit.

Anyway we likely lost Simon & Trier, hindsight is 20/20 but would've love to have Dorsey as OAD.
I am not overly upset about Simon leaving, but I definitely wish we had stuck with Dorsey instead of going with Trier/Simon.
I don't see it this way. Trier was at least Dorsey's equal.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/pla ... ier-1.html" target="_blank

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/pla ... sey-1.html" target="_blank

Trier was more efficient as a scorer by a good bit and Dorsey had him by a bit in assists and rebounding.

Add in Smith and we made the right choice. It doesn't feel like it bc Oregon was better than us this year.

Agree. Not a big deal that we got Trier instead of Dorsey. Trier a better slasher. The team's only slasher. Only guy who could create his own shot. Filled a big role. Can't predict an injury, of course.

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