2017-2018 Arizona Basketball

[Spaceman Spiff]

Sounds a lot like Lute too. This year reminds me a lot of Lute during the 90's. He'll never win the big one, the final 4 is his ceiling. What a bunch of delusional fans back then. They quickly forgot about the end of the Snowden era and the Ben Lindsey year. I remember listening to call in radio and fan after fan saying we should fire Lute. I couldn't believe how stupid out fan base was. Then he wins it all and he was a god.

As the Lute era recedes into the past, I'm having a harder time recalling how his style differed from Sean's. I don't remember Lute being known as a "hard-ass" or a "he touched the ball" type. He was always more measured, more reserved. Sure he had his games where he let the refs hear it, but find me a video of Lute calling out refs, players, etc. the way that Sean tends to.

And what about at practice? Was Lute a screamer? Was defense the main focus? Were Lute's teams better conditioned physically than Sean's?

Didn't Lute have Kevin O'Neill to play bad cop? Miller has his assistants play good cop, Lute flipped it.

[Beachcat97]

So what makes the fan base change it's mind about this team?

Does beating UNLV on the road Saturday mean anything if we lose to A &M in PHX? What about Alabama at home?

What if Arizona drops all 3 games? What if they win all three? What if they are blowouts versus close games? What if they are defensive battles versus offensive showcases?

Does any of this really matter if Arizona makes the tournament? Does the draw or location in the tournament even matter anymore? Does a favorable path versus a difficult road matter?

What will make you feel better? At trip to the Final 4 and an immediate exit? Would an Elite 8 be the "ceiling"?

Arghahahhaaaaa...what are the answers to this question? Tell me from your recliner, please!!!!

What if I told you we're not going to lose another game before Pac play starts?

Gotta have that Final Four. If our one year with Ayton passes without breaking through, it'll be disappointing, imo.

[Beachcat97]

Sounds a lot like Lute too. This year reminds me a lot of Lute during the 90's. He'll never win the big one, the final 4 is his ceiling. What a bunch of delusional fans back then. They quickly forgot about the end of the Snowden era and the Ben Lindsey year. I remember listening to call in radio and fan after fan saying we should fire Lute. I couldn't believe how stupid out fan base was. Then he wins it all and he was a god.

As the Lute era recedes into the past, I'm having a harder time recalling how his style differed from Sean's. I don't remember Lute being known as a "hard-ass" or a "he touched the ball" type. He was always more measured, more reserved. Sure he had his games where he let the refs hear it, but find me a video of Lute calling out refs, players, etc. the way that Sean tends to.

And what about at practice? Was Lute a screamer? Was defense the main focus? Were Lute's teams better conditioned physically than Sean's?

Didn't Lute have Kevin O'Neill to play bad cop? Miller has his assistants play good cop, Lute flipped it.

Yeah, that rings a bell. KO could get even more unhinged than Miller. I wonder if it's better to have your Bobby Knight-type be the HC or an assistant.

[Olsondogg]

What if I told you we're not going to lose another game before Pac play starts?

I'd tell you to stop hitting the pipe

[Beachcat97]

What if I told you we're not going to lose another game before Pac play starts?

I'd tell you to stop hitting the pipe

No pipe hitting yet; that doesn't start until around 5.

I'm serious, though. Think we're about to heat up.

[PHXCATS]

What if I told you we're not going to lose another game before Pac play starts?

I'd tell you to stop hitting the pipe

No pipe hitting yet; that doesn't start until around 5.

I'm serious, though. Think we're about to heat up.

I would not be surprised at all if U of A beats UNLV, Texas A&M, Bama and UCONN

[Beachcat97]

What if I told you we're not going to lose another game before Pac play starts?

I'd tell you to stop hitting the pipe

No pipe hitting yet; that doesn't start until around 5.

I'm serious, though. Think we're about to heat up.

I would not be surprised at all if U of A beats UNLV, Texas A&M, Bama and UCONN

Exactly. It would fit the ebb/flow pattern of most seasons. But the bigger reason is just that I think we're starting to figure things out. Barcello had a great game yesterday. Randolph was decent. Lee was very strong. It's a huge boost to have our freshmen coming along. Need Trier to stop turning the ball over. Need Smith to find his shot. This team will be excited to play in Vegas and get another win, and they'll be even more psyched for those games vs. ranked teams.

Hang in there, guys. It's about to turn around.

[Olsondogg]

I'm as optimistic on Arizona basketball as they come....

normally...

I don't see a sweep of those teams at all. I have a feeling A & M crushes Arizona and Bama runs them as well.

Hope I'm wrong.

[84Cat]

Sounds a lot like Lute too. This year reminds me a lot of Lute during the 90's. He'll never win the big one, the final 4 is his ceiling. What a bunch of delusional fans back then. They quickly forgot about the end of the Snowden era and the Ben Lindsey year. I remember listening to call in radio and fan after fan saying we should fire Lute. I couldn't believe how stupid out fan base was. Then he wins it all and he was a god.

As the Lute era recedes into the past, I'm having a harder time recalling how his style differed from Sean's. I don't remember Lute being known as a "hard-ass" or a "he touched the ball" type. He was always more measured, more reserved. Sure he had his games where he let the refs hear it, but find me a video of Lute calling out refs, players, etc. the way that Sean tends to.

And what about at practice? Was Lute a screamer? Was defense the main focus? Were Lute's teams better conditioned physically than Sean's?

I agree with this and is my biggest beef with Sean. He loses his temper too much. I think it shows how the players play in big games. They tend to play tight and not aggressive enough. Lute did call out the players like Sean did in the presser last night. I think Sean needs to learn what gets the best results and I think he would find that losing his temper and screaming at the top of his lungs is not productive. We have to remember that Sean is still young. Maybe he never changes and he will always be the guy who does what he does. Lute was slow to change also but found later that he needed to change with his personnel. I'm still a big fan of Sean's and hope he keeps growing as a coach.

[Spaceman Spiff]

What if I told you we're not going to lose another game before Pac play starts?

I'd tell you to stop hitting the pipe

No pipe hitting yet; that doesn't start until around 5.

I'm serious, though. Think we're about to heat up.

So your workplace also frowns on crack use during business hours? Mine too.

I would seriously doubt we have letdown games. We have underlying issues that need to be resolved, but I don't think we'll see the sort of one off loss like 2014-15 UNLV. The idea we're flawed and can't just roll up and win is clear.

[84Cat]

I'm as optimistic on Arizona basketball as they come....

normally...

I don't see a sweep of those teams at all. I have a feeling A & M crushes Arizona and Bama runs them as well.

Hope I'm wrong.

I don't think it matters too much if we win or loss as much as our we growing as a team. I want to see improvement. If we improve, the wins will come. Last night was a step in the right direction. Keep moving forward. I think Rawle will help a lot.

[CalStateTempe]

I'm as optimistic on Arizona basketball as they come....

normally...

I don't see a sweep of those teams at all. I have a feeling A & M crushes Arizona and Bama runs them as well.

Hope I'm wrong.

Wow we are defiantly flipping the script/swapping Odogg, cause this is a post one or ally make, but I too think we can run the table.

Will it be pretty no.

Will they be nailbiters, likely,

Will I be a bad sports example for my kids...always.

But I think we can run the table. Yesterday's game sucked to watch as a win, but I do see sights of life. It's Lee is gonna break out soon IMO.

[gumby]

So what makes the fan base change it's mind about this team?

Does beating UNLV on the road Saturday mean anything if we lose to A &M in PHX? What about Alabama at home?

What if Arizona drops all 3 games? What if they win all three? What if they are blowouts versus close games? What if they are defensive battles versus offensive showcases?

Does any of this really matter if Arizona makes the tournament? Does the draw or location in the tournament even matter anymore? Does a favorable path versus a difficult road matter?

What will make you feel better? At trip to the Final 4 and an immediate exit? Would an Elite 8 be the "ceiling"?

Arghahahhaaaaa...what are the answers to this question? Tell me from your recliner, please!!!!

I'm answering from the adult diaper aisle: Depends.

Long answer:

Does beating UNLV on the road Saturday mean anything if we lose to A &M in PHX? What about Alabama at home?

Yes and yes, unless Alabama is down to three players and they mount a comeback.

What if Arizona drops all 3 games? What if they win all three? What if they are blowouts versus close games? What if they are defensive battles versus offensive showcases?


What if Napoleon had a B-52? What if Washington crossed the Delaware at Halloween, and launched an attack on Americans dressed as Brits?

Does any of this really matter if Arizona makes the tournament? Does the draw or location in the tournament even matter anymore? Does a favorable path versus a difficult road matter?

Nothing really matters, anyone can see. Nothing really matters. Nothing really matters to me.

Anyway the wind blows.

What will make you feel better? At trip to the Final 4 and an immediate exit? Would an Elite 8 be the "ceiling"?

You drive a hard bargain, but I'll take the Final Four and an immediate exit (still think they should play the game, though).

In the final analysis, we're gonna have to vacate all wins anyway, so might as well have fewer of them to lose!

[Spaceman Spiff]

I'm as optimistic on Arizona basketball as they come....

normally...

I don't see a sweep of those teams at all. I have a feeling A & M crushes Arizona and Bama runs them as well.

Hope I'm wrong.

Wow we are defiantly flipping the script/swapping Odogg, cause this is a post one or ally make, but I too think we can run the table.

Will it be pretty no.

Will they be nailbiters, likely,

Will I be a bad sports example for my kids...always.

But I think we can run the table. Yesterday's game sucked to watch as a win, but I do see sights of life. It's Lee is gonna break out soon IMO.

They're both loseable games. In a weird way, that makes me feel better right now. This is completely an outsider perspective, but Atlantis seemed like a case of a team buying its own hype then self-destructing when real adversity set in.

Games where we walk in having to respond are what we need. We have talent. We need intensity and production to match, and challenges call that out of you.

[gumby]

Deandre Ayton, 19 ppg, 12 rebounds. Anthony Davis, 14 ppg, 10 rebounds.

The problem is defense! Sheesh, the players won't listen, the fans won't listen.

[gumby]

Videographer has a low ceiling.

[Olsondogg]

I dunno guys. I see a soft as shit team, without any leadership.

Doesn't mean I don't like the guys, and root like hell for them, but I just am not seeing it.

[gumby]

I dunno guys. I see a soft as shit team, without any leadership.

Doesn't mean I don't like the guys, and root like hell for them, but I just am not seeing it.

That's because they haven't done it, yet. This is a reasonable position.

[CalStateTempe]

I am excited if a little nervous to stay seeing this team agaisnt real competition.

I'll have to watch on my smart phone from the polar express on sat.

[dovecanyoncat]

I dunno guys. I see a soft as shit team, without any leadership.

Doesn't mean I don't like the guys, and root like hell for them, but I just am not seeing it.

That's because they haven't done it, yet. This is a reasonable position.

If we see leadership and defense I won't shoot myself if we lose a few more to good teams (gag, cough, hack, wheeze). I just don't want to see us lose for the same reasons we lost in the Bahamas.

Defend, box out and board with effort. Limit TOs with focus. Move the ball as a team to the open shooter.

[YoDeFoe]

I rewatched some of last night - can see why Miller was pissed.

The freshman look absolutely lost at times. Like, they can't remember to play defense for more than 10 seconds.

They remind me of how I looked my first year playing lacrosse. "Okay defense... defense... remember how to play defense... my guy has the ball, okay close out and pressure, pressure, pressure... okay good he passed it, whew that was a close one, good jooooohhh no what is happening... why is that guy open??? Is he my guy? Why am I covering the same guy as Chad?? Fuck, Chad - get over there! Okay I'll run over oh no they scored. Jeez guys what happened there? Coach is gonna be piiiiiiiiiisssed."

They seem to have no concept of what is going on besides "stick to your man" and they don't even seem to do that well (multiple times guys were caught just standing while their dude cut away from them).

Randolph, Smith, Lee... all looked like shit at times on D. I wouldn't call it effort so much as mentally they're not aware of what is going on.

Yes, you rotated to the post to cover Ristic's man while Ristic covered the drive... now Ristic is back on his man... now Ristic is back on his man... RISTIC IS ON HIS MAN WHAT ARE YOU DOING GO COVER YOUR MAN ON THE PERIMETER.

We really really lucked out that the other team was LBSU, because our guys look like they've never had to play team defense in their lives.

I think the trouble is that the older guys (PJC, Trier, Ristic) are used to having someone else cover up their mistakes. Now they're the guys who need to be super active on D, calling out assignments and sending guys to the right position. It hasn't clicked yet with them and the young guys are just flat out bad at reading defensive assignments and rotations.

I encourage everyone to watch last night's game again if possible and just focus on the defensive assignments. If the other team scores a bucket, back the tape up and see who didn't do what they could have done. It's shocking and to be honest frightening.

[dovecanyoncat]

I rewatched some of last night - can see why Miller was pissed.

The freshman look absolutely lost at times. Like, they can't remember to play defense for more than 10 seconds......................Randolph, Smith, Lee... all looked like shit at times on D. I wouldn't call it effort so much as mentally they're not aware of what is going on.

And this is what I don't get. I never played organized ball (pretty obvious) but I would expect coach to put them in those exact situations over and over again in practice. Fog of war, I guess.

[YoDeFoe]

I rewatched some of last night - can see why Miller was pissed.

The freshman look absolutely lost at times. Like, they can't remember to play defense for more than 10 seconds......................Randolph, Smith, Lee... all looked like shit at times on D. I wouldn't call it effort so much as mentally they're not aware of what is going on.

And this is what I don't get. I never played organized ball (pretty obvious) but I would expect coach to put them in those exact situations over and over again in practice. Fog of war, I guess.

Team defense takes time and if you're not used to playing it... it takes time to iron out those bad habits. The best way to learn is for other people to do what you should be doing and direct you to your spot (and to cover your ass when you're making mistakes so your team still gets the stop).

If you're Ristic and you've recovered to your man in the paint, yell to Randolph that he can release to his man on the perimeter and point that dude out. That's the way these guys learn. Instead Ristic goes to his man and stands next to Randolph, no words exchanged. Until the open three point attempt is hoisted and Randolph runs over "to contest." Guys need to take ownership of their space and their assignments, and that starts with the guys who have done this before taking the reigns and the other guys learning to do the same.

Fog of war indeed - it's easy to nod your head in practice and say "I get it coach" and to run the drill over and over and look good. But when it's live action guys lose their heads (and their assignments).

[rgdeuce]

I encourage everyone to watch last night's game again if possible and just focus on the defensive assignments. If the other team scores a bucket, back the tape up and see who didn't do what they could have done. It's shocking and to be honest frightening.

This is why my wife doesnt watch away games with me. I do this on pretty much every defensive breakdown or offensive rebound.

[rgdeuce]

I rewatched some of last night - can see why Miller was pissed.

The freshman look absolutely lost at times. Like, they can't remember to play defense for more than 10 seconds......................Randolph, Smith, Lee... all looked like shit at times on D. I wouldn't call it effort so much as mentally they're not aware of what is going on.

And this is what I don't get. I never played organized ball (pretty obvious) but I would expect coach to put them in those exact situations over and over again in practice. Fog of war, I guess.

Lot different when the game speeds up, you incorporate transition defense and all that, play against different types of offenses, etc.. Way more fluid of a situation. All it takes is one guy to not do his job and the whole thing can go to shit really quick.

From what I can tell, the communication is not there at all. It also doesnt help when multiple upperclassmen, the guys who should be communicating and helping the young guys out, need someone out there to help them fairly frequently.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I rewatched some of last night - can see why Miller was pissed.

The freshman look absolutely lost at times. Like, they can't remember to play defense for more than 10 seconds......................Randolph, Smith, Lee... all looked like shit at times on D. I wouldn't call it effort so much as mentally they're not aware of what is going on.

And this is what I don't get. I never played organized ball (pretty obvious) but I would expect coach to put them in those exact situations over and over again in practice. Fog of war, I guess.

Lot different when the game speeds up, you incorporate transition defense and all that, play against different types of offenses, etc.. Way more fluid of a situation. All it takes is one guy to not do his job and the whole thing can go to shit really quick.

From what I can tell, the communication is not there at all. It also doesnt help when multiple upperclassmen, the guys who should be communicating and helping the young guys out, need someone out there to help them fairly frequently.

It isn't just that they don't know what to do, it's that in game situations, it has to be automatic. If you have to think, process and react, you're almost always too late in a game situation.

That's a lot of what I see. It isn't that they don't know what to do, it just takes a second, and instead of cutting off penetration, we wind up waving at someone who's already by their man.

[CatFanOneMil]

I'll tell you what I saw last night, a team with some serious talent but absolutely no chemistry and spotty leadership.

Players are still playing "entitled" ball, and frankly the only guy out there who should get that is Ayton.

It's funny because all the scouting reports about Deandre Ayton suggested his "motor" might need work...and I think this is still true, but when you throw him into a group of entitled players who think they SHOULD get to play because they are whatever the fuck they think its almost like it looks like his motor is in over-drive compared to theirs an in many cases it is.

Miller is rightfully pissed at this team.

When Rawle comes back their will be plenty of space in the pine for lackadaisical performers...Miller will play 6 hard playing guys rather than 8 fluff players.

[gumby]

Sounds a lot like Lute too. This year reminds me a lot of Lute during the 90's. He'll never win the big one, the final 4 is his ceiling. What a bunch of delusional fans back then. They quickly forgot about the end of the Snowden era and the Ben Lindsey year. I remember listening to call in radio and fan after fan saying we should fire Lute. I couldn't believe how stupid out fan base was. Then he wins it all and he was a god.

As the Lute era recedes into the past, I'm having a harder time recalling how his style differed from Sean's. I don't remember Lute being known as a "hard-ass" or a "he touched the ball" type. He was always more measured, more reserved. Sure he had his games where he let the refs hear it, but find me a video of Lute calling out refs, players, etc. the way that Sean tends to.

And what about at practice? Was Lute a screamer? Was defense the main focus? Were Lute's teams better conditioned physically than Sean's?

Didn't Lute have Kevin O'Neill to play bad cop? Miller has his assistants play good cop, Lute flipped it.

So bizarre that they coached together, successfully.

[gumby]

I rewatched some of last night - can see why Miller was pissed.

The freshman look absolutely lost at times. Like, they can't remember to play defense for more than 10 seconds.

They remind me of how I looked my first year playing lacrosse. "Okay defense... defense... remember how to play defense... my guy has the ball, okay close out and pressure, pressure, pressure... okay good he passed it, whew that was a close one, good jooooohhh no what is happening... why is that guy open??? Is he my guy? Why am I covering the same guy as Chad?? Fuck, Chad - get over there! Okay I'll run over oh no they scored. Jeez guys what happened there? Coach is gonna be piiiiiiiiiisssed."

They seem to have no concept of what is going on besides "stick to your man" and they don't even seem to do that well (multiple times guys were caught just standing while their dude cut away from them).

Randolph, Smith, Lee... all looked like shit at times on D. I wouldn't call it effort so much as mentally they're not aware of what is going on.

Yes, you rotated to the post to cover Ristic's man while Ristic covered the drive... now Ristic is back on his man... now Ristic is back on his man... RISTIC IS ON HIS MAN WHAT ARE YOU DOING GO COVER YOUR MAN ON THE PERIMETER.

We really really lucked out that the other team was LBSU, because our guys look like they've never had to play team defense in their lives.

I think the trouble is that the older guys (PJC, Trier, Ristic) are used to having someone else cover up their mistakes. Now they're the guys who need to be super active on D, calling out assignments and sending guys to the right position. It hasn't clicked yet with them and the young guys are just flat out bad at reading defensive assignments and rotations.

I encourage everyone to watch last night's game again if possible and just focus on the defensive assignments. If the other team scores a bucket, back the tape up and see who didn't do what they could have done. It's shocking and to be honest frightening.

I really enjoyed this post. I rolled back a lot of the plays (I don't do halftime and timeouts), and you're right. I remember the Randolph play. I'm like, why are you in the paint? There are three Wildcats in the paint. Why are you one of them? Ball goes to perimeter. Three.

[dovecanyoncat]

I rewatched some of last night - can see why Miller was pissed.

The freshman look absolutely lost at times. Like, they can't remember to play defense for more than 10 seconds......................Randolph, Smith, Lee... all looked like shit at times on D. I wouldn't call it effort so much as mentally they're not aware of what is going on.

And this is what I don't get. I never played organized ball (pretty obvious) but I would expect coach to put them in those exact situations over and over again in practice. Fog of war, I guess.

Lot different when the game speeds up, you incorporate transition defense and all that, play against different types of offenses, etc.. Way more fluid of a situation. All it takes is one guy to not do his job and the whole thing can go to shit really quick.

From what I can tell, the communication is not there at all. It also doesnt help when multiple upperclassmen, the guys who should be communicating and helping the young guys out, need someone out there to help them fairly frequently.

It isn't just that they don't know what to do, it's that in game situations, it has to be automatic. If you have to think, process and react, you're almost always too late in a game situation.

That's a lot of what I see. It isn't that they don't know what to do, it just takes a second, and instead of cutting off penetration, we wind up waving at someone who's already by their man.

A couple years ago on ESPN Game Night Calipari strutted along the sideline and yelled at a player for all the nation to hear "If you can't guard him, you don't play!!"

I don't want us to fully become a UK type program. I hope Rawle is that missing integral piece who (already) knows where he needs to be and verbally directs the freshmen. But isn't that a tenuous dependency? He's a sophomore; Trier, in terms of # of games played, is as well.

[Longhorned]

I rewatched some of last night - can see why Miller was pissed.

The freshman look absolutely lost at times. Like, they can't remember to play defense for more than 10 seconds.

They remind me of how I looked my first year playing lacrosse. "Okay defense... defense... remember how to play defense... my guy has the ball, okay close out and pressure, pressure, pressure... okay good he passed it, whew that was a close one, good jooooohhh no what is happening... why is that guy open??? Is he my guy? Why am I covering the same guy as Chad?? Fuck, Chad - get over there! Okay I'll run over oh no they scored. Jeez guys what happened there? Coach is gonna be piiiiiiiiiisssed."

They seem to have no concept of what is going on besides "stick to your man" and they don't even seem to do that well (multiple times guys were caught just standing while their dude cut away from them).

Randolph, Smith, Lee... all looked like shit at times on D. I wouldn't call it effort so much as mentally they're not aware of what is going on.

Yes, you rotated to the post to cover Ristic's man while Ristic covered the drive... now Ristic is back on his man... now Ristic is back on his man... RISTIC IS ON HIS MAN WHAT ARE YOU DOING GO COVER YOUR MAN ON THE PERIMETER.

We really really lucked out that the other team was LBSU, because our guys look like they've never had to play team defense in their lives.

I think the trouble is that the older guys (PJC, Trier, Ristic) are used to having someone else cover up their mistakes. Now they're the guys who need to be super active on D, calling out assignments and sending guys to the right position. It hasn't clicked yet with them and the young guys are just flat out bad at reading defensive assignments and rotations.

I encourage everyone to watch last night's game again if possible and just focus on the defensive assignments. If the other team scores a bucket, back the tape up and see who didn't do what they could have done. It's shocking and to be honest frightening.

I really enjoyed this post. I rolled back a lot of the plays (I don't do halftime and timeouts), and you're right. I remember the Randolph play. I'm like, why are you in the paint? There are three Wildcats in the paint. Why are you one of them? Ball goes to perimeter. Three.

It was really discouraging.

[Hank of sb]

I rewatched some of last night - can see why Miller was pissed.

I really enjoyed this post. I rolled back a lot of the plays (I don't do halftime and timeouts), and you're right. I remember the Randolph play. I'm like, why are you in the paint? There are three Wildcats in the paint. Why are you one of them? Ball goes to perimeter. Three.

You ask: "Why are you one of them?"

Might it be what everyone has been grousing about out for what, three/four/five years now?

With the packline, everyone but the man guarding the ball is supposed to be inside an imaginary arc. Well there they were; three of the players right there....... obeying orders. When the ball moves around the horn, it's easy to get dizzy wondering who's supposed to be outside the arc.

At some point, any freshman might wonder when it's time to run to the other end. For the freshmen (and Trier), when the other team scores, it's actually a relief!

As you said, only partly in jest (I assume): "In the final analysis, we're gonna have to vacate all wins anyway, so might as well have fewer of them to lose!"

Arizona needs a miracle win in Vegas.

[YoDeFoe]

Gumby I love that I didn’t name Randolph and you knew what play I was talking about.

[rgdeuce]

With the packline, everyone but the man guarding the ball is supposed to be inside an imaginary arc. Well there they were; three of the players right there....... obeying orders. When the ball moves around the horn, it's easy to get dizzy wondering who's supposed to be outside the arc.

At some point, any freshman might wonder when it's time to run to the other end. For the freshmen (and Trier), when the other team scores, it's actually a relief!

As you said, only partly in jest (I assume): "In the final analysis, we're gonna have to vacate all wins anyway, so might as well have fewer of them to lose!"

Arizona needs a miracle win in Vegas.

I think some here are over complicating the packline defense. It really isn't rocket science. It has the same principals as a traditional man to man defense for the off-ball defender - "ball you man" (if you put both your hands out and make your hands into handguns, you should be in a position where you can point at the man with the ball and the man you are guarding and both are in your line of vision). The only difference is, you are "sagging" into the packline, rather than playing the pass or pressuring your man (eg: denying your man the ball or playing the passing lane for a steal). The only guy pressuring is the defender who is playing the ball. When a pass swings to the off-ball offensive player, THEN the off-ball defender sprints to close out on his man and the man who WAS guarding sags back into the packline arc with the same ball you man stance to plug up a vacated gap.

The idea is to have layers of help defenders already in an advantageous position to provide help. Because of this, the on-ball defender is able to (and should) be right in the ball handlers kitchen, which he is able to do because if he puts the ball on the floor and goes around his defender, the ball handler is going to look up and see multiple white jerseys in the gaps and be forced to make a decision = pull up and shoot a mid- to long-range jumper, pass, or dribble back out. When the ball gets whipped around, off ball defenders need to adjust their position to be in the right spot to keep the gaps closed. Again, what players should already be doing in a traditional man to man, with just a slight variation. The only time all players are closing out on all of their men is when the ball handler picks up his dribble, then the defenders are looking to deny the pass/get the steal. As for when "freshmen and Trier" need to run up the floor, the same basics of team rebounding apply = shot goes up, you go find your man and put a body on him to box out, you wait til you secure the rebound, then you go. Obviously some guards and wings use their intuition to "cheat" to get an extra step on their man up the floor in some cases.

[Merkin]

Sounds a lot like Lute too. This year reminds me a lot of Lute during the 90's. He'll never win the big one, the final 4 is his ceiling. What a bunch of delusional fans back then. They quickly forgot about the end of the Snowden era and the Ben Lindsey year. I remember listening to call in radio and fan after fan saying we should fire Lute. I couldn't believe how stupid out fan base was. Then he wins it all and he was a god.

Didn't help with all the anti-Lute comments Greg Hansen used to put in the paper. Greg sure hated Lute. They never did get along except for a short while which Lute brought up in his post-stroke presser.

Lute was a not a friend of the press.

[Longhorned]

With the packline, everyone but the man guarding the ball is supposed to be inside an imaginary arc. Well there they were; three of the players right there....... obeying orders. When the ball moves around the horn, it's easy to get dizzy wondering who's supposed to be outside the arc.

At some point, any freshman might wonder when it's time to run to the other end. For the freshmen (and Trier), when the other team scores, it's actually a relief!

As you said, only partly in jest (I assume): "In the final analysis, we're gonna have to vacate all wins anyway, so might as well have fewer of them to lose!"

Arizona needs a miracle win in Vegas.

I think some here are over complicating the packline defense. It really isn't rocket science. It has the same principals as a traditional man to man defense for the off-ball defender - "ball you man" (if you put both your hands out and make your hands into handguns, you should be in a position where you can point at the man with the ball and the man you are guarding and both are in your line of vision). The only difference is, you are "sagging" into the packline, rather than playing the pass or pressuring your man (eg: denying your man the ball or playing the passing lane for a steal). The only guy pressuring is the defender who is playing the ball. When a pass swings to the off-ball offensive player, THEN the off-ball defender sprints to close out on his man and the man who WAS guarding sags back into the packline arc with the same ball you man stance to plug up a vacated gap.

The idea is to have layers of help defenders already in an advantageous position to provide help. Because of this, the on-ball defender is able to (and should) be right in the ball handlers kitchen, which he is able to do because if he puts the ball on the floor and goes around his defender, the ball handler is going to look up and see multiple white jerseys in the gaps and be forced to make a decision = pull up and shoot a mid- to long-range jumper, pass, or dribble back out. When the ball gets whipped around, off ball defenders need to adjust their position to be in the right spot to keep the gaps closed. Again, what players should already be doing in a traditional man to man, with just a slight variation. The only time all players are closing out on all of their men is when the ball handler picks up his dribble, then the defenders are looking to deny the pass/get the steal. As for when "freshmen and Trier" need to run up the floor, the same basics of team rebounding apply = shot goes up, you go find your man and put a body on him to box out, you wait til you secure the rebound, then you go. Obviously some guards and wings use their intuition to "cheat" to get an extra step on their man up the floor in some cases.

Wonderful. Thank you.

And these details point to something that was so discouraging in the LBSU game. The closed passing lanes, denied passing opportunities, closed paths to the rim, and lack of open shooters eat the possession clock because high percentage shot opportunities aren't available. I think Arizona forced only two shot clock penalties the entire game, and otherwise the defense either forced a turnover or let LBSU have an open shot or layup. Turnovers are awesome, but LBSU is a turnover machine, and we were looking for Arizona to force LBSU into taking low percentage shots deep in the clock. There wasn't much of that.

[Spaceman Spiff]

With the packline, everyone but the man guarding the ball is supposed to be inside an imaginary arc. Well there they were; three of the players right there....... obeying orders. When the ball moves around the horn, it's easy to get dizzy wondering who's supposed to be outside the arc.

At some point, any freshman might wonder when it's time to run to the other end. For the freshmen (and Trier), when the other team scores, it's actually a relief!

As you said, only partly in jest (I assume): "In the final analysis, we're gonna have to vacate all wins anyway, so might as well have fewer of them to lose!"

Arizona needs a miracle win in Vegas.

I think some here are over complicating the packline defense. It really isn't rocket science. It has the same principals as a traditional man to man defense for the off-ball defender - "ball you man" (if you put both your hands out and make your hands into handguns, you should be in a position where you can point at the man with the ball and the man you are guarding and both are in your line of vision). The only difference is, you are "sagging" into the packline, rather than playing the pass or pressuring your man (eg: denying your man the ball or playing the passing lane for a steal). The only guy pressuring is the defender who is playing the ball. When a pass swings to the off-ball offensive player, THEN the off-ball defender sprints to close out on his man and the man who WAS guarding sags back into the packline arc with the same ball you man stance to plug up a vacated gap.

The idea is to have layers of help defenders already in an advantageous position to provide help. Because of this, the on-ball defender is able to (and should) be right in the ball handlers kitchen, which he is able to do because if he puts the ball on the floor and goes around his defender, the ball handler is going to look up and see multiple white jerseys in the gaps and be forced to make a decision = pull up and shoot a mid- to long-range jumper, pass, or dribble back out. When the ball gets whipped around, off ball defenders need to adjust their position to be in the right spot to keep the gaps closed. Again, what players should already be doing in a traditional man to man, with just a slight variation. The only time all players are closing out on all of their men is when the ball handler picks up his dribble, then the defenders are looking to deny the pass/get the steal. As for when "freshmen and Trier" need to run up the floor, the same basics of team rebounding apply = shot goes up, you go find your man and put a body on him to box out, you wait til you secure the rebound, then you go. Obviously some guards and wings use their intuition to "cheat" to get an extra step on their man up the floor in some cases.

Thank you for this. People talk about packline like it's rocket surgery, but it isn't.

On ball: Packline is not a defense predicated on aggressiveness and trying to generate steals. You're trying to maintain position and pressure without gambling. Pressure is more about forcing the ball East/West.

Off ball: Shooting the passing lanes is low priority. As you said, the goal is to be in a driving lane, not a passing lane. Being proficient at closing out matters heavily. Because the idea is to gang up on penetration, players need to gauge whether they can recover to shooters or whether someone off ball needs to switch and trigger rotation. That last part is where players need to be on the same page, but it is hardly unique to packline. You just do it more in packline with the emphasis on cutting off penetration with constant help.

There really aren't new concepts for anyone who has a halfway decent HS coach. It's just a difference in emphasis and the ability of players to seamlessly pass men off vs help and recover to your own guy.

[gumby]

I rewatched some of last night - can see why Miller was pissed.

I really enjoyed this post. I rolled back a lot of the plays (I don't do halftime and timeouts), and you're right. I remember the Randolph play. I'm like, why are you in the paint? There are three Wildcats in the paint. Why are you one of them? Ball goes to perimeter. Three.

You ask: "Why are you one of them?"

Might it be what everyone has been grousing about out for what, three/four/five years now?

With the packline, everyone but the man guarding the ball is supposed to be inside an imaginary arc. Well there they were; three of the players right there....... obeying orders. When the ball moves around the horn, it's easy to get dizzy wondering who's supposed to be outside the arc.

At some point, any freshman might wonder when it's time to run to the other end. For the freshmen (and Trier), when the other team scores, it's actually a relief!

As you said, only partly in jest (I assume): "In the final analysis, we're gonna have to vacate all wins anyway, so might as well have fewer of them to lose!"

Arizona needs a miracle win in Vegas.

No, he just messed up. His man was on the wing on the weak side. Randolph started where he should be, then drifted away from his guy. Had he been positioned properly, he could've closed out. Other players do this properly (at Arizona, Virginia, Wisconsin, Wazzu -- under Bennett.). It can be done.

Virginia is currently fourth in defensive efficiency. We've also ranked high in previous years.

A Vegas win wouldn't be miraculous.

Oh, and it was fully in jest.

[CatHoops]

Anyone going to Vegas for the game?

[gumby]

Cats favored by 3.5 at the moment to pull off miracle.

[Hank of sb]

I think some here are over complicating the packline defense. It really isn't rocket science. It has the same principals as a traditional man to man defense for the off-ball defender - "ball you man" (if you put both your hands out and make your hands into handguns, you should be in a position where you can point at the man with the ball and the man you are guarding and both are in your line of vision). The only difference is, you are "sagging" into the packline, rather than playing the pass or pressuring your man (eg: denying your man the ball or playing the passing lane for a steal). The only guy pressuring is the defender who is playing the ball. When a pass swings to the off-ball offensive player, THEN the off-ball defender sprints to close out on his man and the man who WAS guarding sags back into the packline arc with the same ball you man stance to plug up a vacated gap.

The idea is to have layers of help defenders already in an advantageous position to provide help. Because of this, the on-ball defender is able to (and should) be right in the ball handlers kitchen, which he is able to do because if he puts the ball on the floor and goes around his defender, the ball handler is going to look up and see multiple white jerseys in the gaps and be forced to make a decision = pull up and shoot a mid- to long-range jumper, pass, or dribble back out. When the ball gets whipped around, off ball defenders need to adjust their position to be in the right spot to keep the gaps closed. Again, what players should already be doing in a traditional man to man, with just a slight variation. The only time all players are closing out on all of their men is when the ball handler picks up his dribble, then the defenders are looking to deny the pass/get the steal. As for when "freshmen and Trier" need to run up the floor, the same basics of team rebounding apply = shot goes up, you go find your man and put a body on him to box out, you wait til you secure the rebound, then you go. Obviously some guards and wings use their intuition to "cheat" to get an extra step on their man up the floor in some cases.

Yes. (We agree it's not rocket science.)

Zone. Stay in zone.
Man. Guard the guy with #3 on his shirt.
Packline.....................................................two paragraphs.

I think we might also agree the talk has been about coaching.

Simplify. Adjust to strong suit of personnel. Recognize every year, every team is different.....in good ways each team different.

Perhaps this is the first year (out of the last 9) we are 0-3 against the real competition.

Game 4 tomorrow.

[loomer]

With the packline, everyone but the man guarding the ball is supposed to be inside an imaginary arc. Well there they were; three of the players right there....... obeying orders. When the ball moves around the horn, it's easy to get dizzy wondering who's supposed to be outside the arc.

At some point, any freshman might wonder when it's time to run to the other end. For the freshmen (and Trier), when the other team scores, it's actually a relief!

As you said, only partly in jest (I assume): "In the final analysis, we're gonna have to vacate all wins anyway, so might as well have fewer of them to lose!"

Arizona needs a miracle win in Vegas.

I think some here are over complicating the packline defense. It really isn't rocket science. It has the same principals as a traditional man to man defense for the off-ball defender - "ball you man" (if you put both your hands out and make your hands into handguns, you should be in a position where you can point at the man with the ball and the man you are guarding and both are in your line of vision). The only difference is, you are "sagging" into the packline, rather than playing the pass or pressuring your man (eg: denying your man the ball or playing the passing lane for a steal). The only guy pressuring is the defender who is playing the ball. When a pass swings to the off-ball offensive player, THEN the off-ball defender sprints to close out on his man and the man who WAS guarding sags back into the packline arc with the same ball you man stance to plug up a vacated gap.

The idea is to have layers of help defenders already in an advantageous position to provide help. Because of this, the on-ball defender is able to (and should) be right in the ball handlers kitchen, which he is able to do because if he puts the ball on the floor and goes around his defender, the ball handler is going to look up and see multiple white jerseys in the gaps and be forced to make a decision = pull up and shoot a mid- to long-range jumper, pass, or dribble back out. When the ball gets whipped around, off ball defenders need to adjust their position to be in the right spot to keep the gaps closed. Again, what players should already be doing in a traditional man to man, with just a slight variation. The only time all players are closing out on all of their men is when the ball handler picks up his dribble, then the defenders are looking to deny the pass/get the steal. As for when "freshmen and Trier" need to run up the floor, the same basics of team rebounding apply = shot goes up, you go find your man and put a body on him to box out, you wait til you secure the rebound, then you go. Obviously some guards and wings use their intuition to "cheat" to get an extra step on their man up the floor in some cases.

Thank you for this. People talk about packline like it's rocket surgery, but it isn't.

On ball: Packline is not a defense predicated on aggressiveness and trying to generate steals. You're trying to maintain position and pressure without gambling. Pressure is more about forcing the ball East/West.

Off ball: Shooting the passing lanes is low priority. As you said, the goal is to be in a driving lane, not a passing lane. Being proficient at closing out matters heavily. Because the idea is to gang up on penetration, players need to gauge whether they can recover to shooters or whether someone off ball needs to switch and trigger rotation. That last part is where players need to be on the same page, but it is hardly unique to packline. You just do it more in packline with the emphasis on cutting off penetration with constant help.

There really aren't new concepts for anyone who has a halfway decent HS coach. It's just a difference in emphasis and the ability of players to seamlessly pass men off vs help and recover to your own guy.

One thing Milller can do is to deploy a packline more similar to Izzo or what Gonzaga was successful with last year. Ristic is not Tarczewski and can't recover nearly as well when hedging that far out. And even when Tarc was here we would get burned by it from time to time. Last year, Few had Karnowski play more of a containment type defense only hedging out just below the 3-point line. Karnowski was also a mountain of a player so of course that helped too. It's actually really interesting watching how Gonzaga played defense last year, as it seems they ran more of a hybrid than anything else. At times they looked like a traditional Izzo packline with more switching and less hedging and at other times their guards played above the invisible packline arc more akin to standard man to man. The problem is that Sean has always been more of a fan of the Bennett packline philosophy than the Izzo one, and even Izzo will deviate at times depending on the matchup https://bballbreakdown.com/2015/03/27/m ... djustment/

[Beachcat97]

Cats favored by 3.5 at the moment to pull off miracle.

From in the conversation for best team in the country to needing a miracle to beat unranked UNLV (sighs).

[BBQ wildcat]

True. At this point, making the PAC-12 final 4 is iffy.

[scumdevils86]

We truly suck

[PHXCATS]

We truly suck

Bad fan

[Beachcat97]

This is the worst an AZ team has looked in years. I honestly can’t remember a team with this little chemistry and fire. Pennell? KO? Even their teams played better than this. I’m at a loss, guys. And so much for the Romar effect, I guess.

[Catintheheat]

We truly suck

Bad fan

Because he is telling the truth?

[Catintheheat]

This is the worst an AZ team has looked in years. I honestly can’t remember a team with this little chemistry and fire. Pennell? KO? Even their teams played better than this. I’m at a loss, guys. And so much for the Romar effect, I guess.

Even CSM's first year was better than this. I can't remember an Arizona team this bad. You would have to go back decades. This may be the worst team since the mid 80s. And to think before the season began I thought they were the best since 01.

[Merkin]

We truly suck

From a guaranteed Final 4 team to not even sure the Cats will make the the tourney?

Yes, they most certainly do