Bear Down Wildcats

my All-Time top 15 line-ups (75 individual player selections) if i was given the opportunity to pick from the entire pool of Arizona players

no repeat selections:

1) Bibby - Arenas - S. Elliot - Gordon - Ayton
2) D. Stoudamire - Kerr - B. Elliot - D. Williams - B. Williams
3) Terry - Norman - Mills - Markkanen - Woods
4) McConnell - Reeves - Fleming - A. Iguodala - Frye
5) S. Stoudamire - Bayless - Simon - Wright - J. Hill
6) Gardner - Jefferson - N. Johnson - Walton - Cook
7) Lyons - Trier - S. Hill - Budinger - Nnaji
8) Shakur - Buechler - Dickerson - Radenovic - Tarczewski
9) Lofton - Hollis-Jefferson - S. Johnson - Davis - Ristic
10) Mannion - McMillan - Adams - Davison - Stokes
11) Allen - Fogg - Geary - Rick Anderson - Bramlett
12) Wise - Othick - M. Williams - Horne - Ashley
13) L. Jones - York - Ryan Anderson - Perry - Harris
14) Cartwright - McClellan - Parrom - Edgerson - Walters
15) Mayes - Lavender - Pitts - Wessel - Jacobson

No Josh Green?

Clarification on your PG in 14?? It couldn't be...could it?

Would like to see Radenovic and Tarc together

That #15 lineup is really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Gotta be some 60's or 70's guys better than that.

No Ray Owes?

97cats wrote:my All-Time top 15 line-ups (75 individual player selections) if i was given the opportunity to pick from the entire pool of Arizona players

no repeat selections:

1) Bibby - Arenas - S. Elliot - Gordon - Ayton
2) D. Stoudamire - Kerr - B. Elliot - D. Williams - B. Williams
3) Terry - Norman - Mills - Markkanen - Woods
4) McConnell - Reeves - Fleming - A. Iguodala - Frye
5) S. Stoudamire - Bayless - Simon - Wright - J. Hill
6) Gardner - Jefferson - N. Johnson - Walton - Cook
7) Lyons - Trier - S. Hill - Budinger - Nnaji
8) Shakur - Buechler - Dickerson - Radenovic - Tarczewski
9) Lofton - Hollis-Jefferson - S. Johnson - Davis - Ristic
10) Mannion - McMillan - Adams - Davison - Stokes
11) Allen - Fogg - Geary - Rick Anderson - Bramlett
12) Wise - Othick - M. Williams - Horne - Ashley
13) L. Jones - York - Ryan Anderson - Perry - Harris
14) Cartwright - McClellan - Parrom - Edgerson - Walters
15) Mayes - Lavender - Pitts - Wessel - Jacobson

I predict Lyons punches Trier in the face for being lazy.

97cats wrote:my All-Time top 15 line-ups (75 individual player selections) if i was given the opportunity to pick from the entire pool of Arizona players

no repeat selections:

1) Bibby - Arenas - S. Elliot - Gordon - Ayton
2) D. Stoudamire - Kerr - B. Elliot - D. Williams - B. Williams
3) Terry - Norman - Mills - Markkanen - Woods
4) McConnell - Reeves - Fleming - A. Iguodala - Frye
5) S. Stoudamire - Bayless - Simon - Wright - J. Hill
6) Gardner - Jefferson - N. Johnson - Walton - Cook
7) Lyons - Trier - S. Hill - Budinger - Nnaji
8) Shakur - Buechler - Dickerson - Radenovic - Tarczewski
9) Lofton - Hollis-Jefferson - S. Johnson - Davis - Ristic
10) Mannion - McMillan - Adams - Davison - Stokes
11) Allen - Fogg - Geary - Rick Anderson - Bramlett
12) Wise - Othick - M. Williams - Horne - Ashley
13) L. Jones - York - Ryan Anderson - Perry - Harris
14) Cartwright - McClellan - Parrom - Edgerson - Walters
15) Mayes - Lavender - Pitts - Wessel - Jacobson

#10 loses early because you put McMillan at shooting guard, and Adams can't hit iron on the wing, either. Othick for McMillan would improve that lineup substantially.

I love this. Going to have to dive in after work and take a good look.

If you went 16, we could have our own little Arizona theoretical March Madness.

No Ndudi Ebi? No Josiah Turner? Emmanuel Negedu?

1) Bibby , Coniel Norman, Sean Elliot, Brian Williams, Ayton
2) Stoudamire, Kerr, Chris Mills, D Williams, Bob Elliot
3) McConnell, Terry, Iguodala, Markkanen, Loren Woods
4) Mannion, Reeves, Richard Jefferson, Gordon, Channing Frye
5) Gardner, Arenas, Dickerson, M Wright, Woods


My top 5 and I tried to stay true to the positions

Olsondogg wrote:No Ray Owes?

bad omission - he deserves to be there as I’m sure I missed a few others.

no question on Owes tho, good call mistake on my behalf

disclaimer: i did do this from memory

97cats wrote:

Olsondogg wrote:No Ray Owes?

bad omission - he deserves to be there as I’m sure I missed a few others.

no question on Owes tho, good call mistake on my behalf

disclaimer: i did do this from memory

It was a monumental work. Thank you. Sorry my response above was so brief. My three year-old is now home and I'm supposedly working.

Longhorned wrote: 10) Mannion - McMillan - Adams - Davison - Stokes

12) Wise - Othick - M. Williams - Horne - Ashley


#10 loses early because you put McMillan at shooting guard, and Adams can't hit iron on the wing, either. Othick for McMillan would improve that lineup substantially.

my man so I am open on this, I only saw both McMillian and Othick by clear study a few times from memory (and some tape) picking the better player would be tough for me, I just default to stats and in this case slightly favors McMillian - 47%fg, 42%3pt, 77%ft

Othick - 42%fg, 39%3pt, 76%ft

I would love to hear your take and first hand accounts of who you like better?

97cats wrote:

Longhorned wrote: 10) Mannion - McMillan - Adams - Davison - Stokes

12) Wise - Othick - M. Williams - Horne - Ashley


#10 loses early because you put McMillan at shooting guard, and Adams can't hit iron on the wing, either. Othick for McMillan would improve that lineup substantially.

my man so I am open on this, I only saw both McMillian and Othick by clear study a few times from memory (and tape) picking the better player would be tough for me, I just default to stats and in this case slightly favors McMillian - 47%fg, 42%3pt, 77%ft

Othick - 42%fg, 39%3pt, 76%ft

I would love to hear your take and first hand accounts of who you like better?

Makes sense. It's sort of that bigger issue for me as a fan. There's the "eye-test", and worse, the memory of the eye-test. Decades and decades old memories of the eye-test. I'm surprised to see McMillian shot the higher percentage from 3 even if the volume was less (which I'm pretty sure of without checking). I only saw McMillian his senior year. He was an unsung, solid, dependable, and quiet leader and distributor, while Kerr was the focus of opposing defenses on the perimeter. I remember Othick as on fire from range.

Did Mcmillian have the 3 point shot his whole career?

I’m glad you included Ben Davis, he is one of my all time favs.

Tolbert? Rooks?

O-Thick always seemed to pass the ball to someone’s feet or just off their fingertips and then that player would get the turnover. He hit those 7 3’s against Temple? and his legend grew..

Postmaster wrote:Did Mcmillian have the 3 point shot his whole career?

I’m glad you included Ben Davis, he is one of my all time favs.

Tolbert? Rooks?

O-Thick always seemed to pass the ball to someone’s feet or just off their fingertips and then that player would get the turnover. He hit those 7 3’s against Temple? and his legend grew..

Tolbert and Rooks have to be at the top of any list. Hard to believe they were on the same team for a year, with Rooks riding pine.

Jefe wrote:Clarification on your PG in 14?? It couldn't be...could it?

Eric Money was way better of a point guard than Cartwright & Mayes. He was in the NBA for 6 years so he would probably be on the 6 or 7 lineup. The game was very different under Snowden so I'm not sure how his numbers would stack up

Rooks - Money - Tolbert are all way ahead of many on this list

more poor omissions

also, shout out to the eye test, very important

84Cat wrote:

Jefe wrote:Clarification on your PG in 14?? It couldn't be...could it?

Eric Money was way better of a point guard than Cartwright & Mayes. He was in the NBA for 6 years so he would probably be on the 6 or 7 lineup. The game was very different under Snowden so I'm not sure how his numbers would stack up

I never saw him play, but wasn't Money arguably one of the three greatest point guards in the history of the program?

Postmaster wrote:Did Mcmillian have the 3 point shot his whole career?

Nope, only his last 2 years.

Money was, well Money. His first game as a freshman he went for 36 I think. Not great on defense but he was underrated as a passer. Norman averaged 24 because she was a great shooter who got great shots because of Money (and Rappis).

I forgot about Him above. I think 84 slotted him in about right. He was better than Gardner IMO. He averaged over 12 a game in his 6 year NBA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MhPgGtd285s" target="_blank

A few Money highlights from his time in the league

Money is ahead of Gardner and in comfortable company with S. Stoudamire and McConnell, just a notch below Terry.

it pushes Mayes or Cartwright out, take your pick.

Rooks and Tolbert make the bottom on the OP tighter too.

updated:

1) Bibby - Arenas - S. Elliot - Gordon - Ayton
2) D. Stoudamire - Kerr - B. Elliot - D. Williams - B. Williams
3) Terry - Norman - Mills - Markkanen - Woods
4) Money - Reeves - A. Iguodala - Wright - Frye
5) McConnell - Bayless - Simon - Fleming - J. Hill
6) S. Stoudamire - Jefferson - N. Johnson - Walton - Cook
7) Gardener - Trier - S. Hill - Budinger - Nnaji
8) Lyons - Buechler - Dickerson - Radenovic - Tarczewski
9) Shakur - Hollis-Jefferson - Tolbert - Davis - Ristic
10) Lofton - McMillan - Adams - S. Johnson - Stokes
11) Mannion - Fogg - Geary - Davison - Rooks
12) Allen - Othick - M. Williams - Horne - Ashley
13) Wise - York - Owes - Ryan Anderson - Bramlett
14) Jones - Rick Anderson - Parrom - Perry - Harris
15) Mayes - Lavender - Wessel - Edgerson -Walters

97cats wrote:updated:

1) Bibby - Arenas - S. Elliot - Gordon - Ayton
2) D. Stoudamire - Kerr - B. Elliot - D. Williams - B. Williams
3) Terry - Norman - Mills - Markkanen - Woods
4) Money - Reeves - A. Iguodala - Wright - Frye
5) McConnell - Bayless - Simon - Fleming - J. Hill
6) S. Stoudamire - Jefferson - N. Johnson - Walton - Cook
7) Gardener - Trier - S. Hill - Budinger - Nnaji
8) Lyons - Buechler - Dickerson - Radenovic - Tarczewski
9) Shakur - Hollis-Jefferson - Tolbert - Davis - Ristic
10) Lofton - McMillan - Adams - S. Johnson - Stokes
11) Mannion - Fogg - Geary - Davison - Rooks
12) Allen - Othick - M. Williams - Horne - Ashley
13) Wise - York - Owes - Ryan Anderson - Bramlett
14) Jones - Rick Anderson - Parrom - Perry - Harris
15) Mayes - Lavender - Wessel - Edgerson -Walters

Such a great list. Only little things I would change from my perspective - Jefferson, Rooks and Ryan Anderson are a little too low.

Jud Buechler was better than any Arizona small forward not named Sean Elliott. Fight me.

I would definitely take Joseph Blair over Kirk Walters. Blair was drafted in the second round. But played over seas for 13 years.

Alieberman wrote:

97cats wrote:updated:

1) Bibby - Arenas - S. Elliot - Gordon - Ayton
2) D. Stoudamire - Kerr - B. Elliot - D. Williams - B. Williams
3) Terry - Norman - Mills - Markkanen - Woods
4) Money - Reeves - A. Iguodala - Wright - Frye
5) McConnell - Bayless - Simon - Fleming - J. Hill
6) S. Stoudamire - Jefferson - N. Johnson - Walton - Cook
7) Gardener - Trier - S. Hill - Budinger - Nnaji
8) Lyons - Buechler - Dickerson - Radenovic - Tarczewski
9) Shakur - Hollis-Jefferson - Tolbert - Davis - Ristic
10) Lofton - McMillan - Adams - S. Johnson - Stokes
11) Mannion - Fogg - Geary - Davison - Rooks
12) Allen - Othick - M. Williams - Horne - Ashley
13) Wise - York - Owes - Ryan Anderson - Bramlett
14) Jones - Rick Anderson - Parrom - Perry - Harris
15) Mayes - Lavender - Wessel - Edgerson -Walters

Such a great list. Only little things I would change from my perspective - Jefferson, Rooks and Ryan Anderson are a little too low.

Rooks should at least be higher than Stokes, who never really did much. Rooks was a very solid offensive and defensive 5, even though he was a bit short for the position. In fact, I would rate Tarczewski higher than Stokes -- Tarc may not have lived up to his potential, but he was significantly more offensively skilled and productive than Stokes.

Jefferson should probably he higher as well (question, would fans take Jefferson or Mills?). I might also put a guy like Matt Muelbach in over Mayes. The other player I would rate a bit higher would be Reeves.

Catintheheat wrote:I would definitely take Joseph Blair over Kirk Walters. Blair was drafted in the second round. But played over seas for 13 years.

Agreed. Blair was a very solid big man, definitely underrated.

midnightx wrote:

Catintheheat wrote:I would definitely take Joseph Blair over Kirk Walters. Blair was drafted in the second round. But played over seas for 13 years.

Agreed. Blair was a very solid big man, definitely underrated.

I'm sure Blair was on oversight.

He'd probably be around 10 for me

Alieberman wrote:

midnightx wrote:

Catintheheat wrote:I would definitely take Joseph Blair over Kirk Walters. Blair was drafted in the second round. But played over seas for 13 years.

Agreed. Blair was a very solid big man, definitely underrated.

I'm sure Blair was on oversight.

He'd probably be around 10 for me

Agreed. I would have him over Stokes, Bramlett, Harris, Walters (if he's playing the 5), Ashely (if he's playing the 5), and probably Rooks.

Which team is Tollefsen on?

Great list - fun exercise. Just off the top of my head I would have to find a spot at power forward for Larry Demic in that group - probably well ahead of Edgerson.

midnightx wrote: Rooks should at least be higher than Stokes, who never really did much. Rooks was a very solid offensive and defensive 5, even though he was a bit short for the position. In fact, I would rate Tarczewski higher than Stokes -- Tarc may not have lived up to his potential, but he was significantly more offensively skilled and productive than Stokes.

Fair enough for me, I like all three for different reasons.

midnightx wrote: Jefferson should probably he higher as well (question, would fans take Jefferson or Mills?). I might also put a guy like Matt Muelbach in over Mayes. The other player I would rate a bit higher would be Reeves.

don’t agree on Jefferson who i think is appropriately slotted - Mills is better than you remember at Arizona and Jefferson was out of control when he broke in and a career 11pt scorer, Mills averaged 15+ppg three straight years shooting 51.3% from the floor over that span.

in 92-93 (Mills Sr seasons) he shot 52% from the floor and 48% from three and averaged 20.4ppg - he was a third team all-American with Alan Houston, Grant Hill, and Nick Van Exel.

first team that season:

Calbert Cheney
Bobby Hurley
Penny Hardaway
Jamal Mashburn
Chris Webber

oh to the days of college basketballs past...ill take Mills every time over Jefferson.

KaibabKat wrote:Great list - fun exercise. Just off the top of my head I would have to find a spot at power forward for Larry Demic in that group - probably well ahead of Edgerson.

any suggestions of omissions that should be included to tighten up the list would be helpful, Demic yes, maybe Russell Brown too?

Alieberman wrote:

midnightx wrote:
I'm sure Blair was on oversight.

He'd probably be around 10 for me

bad mistake - he deserves to be on the list with Larry Demic and Russell Brown.

I will update one more time as more feedback comes in - thx for the reply.

final - Top 75

1) Bibby - Arenas - S. Elliot - Gordon - Ayton
2) D. Stoudamire - Kerr - B. Elliot - D. Williams - B. Williams
3) Terry - Norman - Mills - Markkanen - Woods
4) Money - Reeves - A. Iguodala - Wright - Frye
5) McConnell - Bayless - Simon - Fleming - J. Hill
6) S. Stoudamire - N. Johnson - Jefferson - Walton - Cook
7) Gardner - Trier - S. Hill - Budinger - Nnaji
8) Lyons - Buechler - Dickerson - Radenovic - Tarczewski
9) Shakur - Hollis-Jefferson - Tolbert - Davis - Ristic
10) Lofton- H. Harris - Adams - S. Johnson - Rooks
11) Mannion - Fogg - Geary - P. Williams - Blair
12) Brown - McMillian - M. Williams - Davison - Stokes
13) Allen - Othick - Owes - Ryan Anderson - Ashley
14) Wise - Muehlebach - Rick Anderson - Perry - Bramlett
15) Jones - York - Horne - Demic - D. Harris

A whole lot of great memories in that list of names. Thanks Jon.

Bracket time? 7 is for sure making it to the 2nd weekend

97cats wrote:

midnightx wrote: Jefferson should probably he higher as well (question, would fans take Jefferson or Mills?). I might also put a guy like Matt Muelbach in over Mayes. The other player I would rate a bit higher would be Reeves.

don’t agree on Jefferson who i think is appropriately slotted - Mills is better than you remember at Arizona and Jefferson was out of control when he broke in and a career 11pt scorer, Mills averaged 15+ppg three straight years shooting 51.3% from the floor over that span.

in 92-93 (Mills Sr seasons) he shot 52% from the floor and 48% from three and averaged 20.4ppg - he was a third team all-American with Alan Houston, Grant Hill, and Nick Van Exel.

first team that season:

Calbert Cheney
Bobby Hurley
Penny Hardaway
Jamal Mashburn
Chris Webber

oh to the days of college basketballs past...ill take Mills every time over Jefferson.

You raise some very good points about Mills. Perhaps it is more about how the Mills' era teams underachieved and the fact that I do not recall Mills ever really taking a game over after his stellar NIT final performance against Arkansas. He put up very respectable numbers, but I never thought he became the breakout player he should have been. The argument can certainly be made that Jefferson never became a breakout star either, but I would argue his numbers were somewhat diluted being on a very balanced team of scorers. Either way, a line-up will be solidified with either player and I understand your reasoning with Mills' placement.

By the way, great thread! Lots of fun looking back at all of the basketball alumni. Upon further reflection, I might also consider switching Miles Simon with Iguodala. Obviously Iguodala was a sensational athlete and dynamic player (who had a great NBA career), but Miles Simon was a special player for most of his college career (not including his dominating performance in the national championship game), and he came up big in a lot of major games throughout his career. He was a scrappy winner.

Jefe wrote:Bracket time? 7 is for sure making it to the 2nd weekend

Yeah, that is a good line-up. I always thought Budinger got screwed due to the timing of Lute's health deterioration. Who knows what his career and development could have been like had he not spent two years with O'Neill and Pennell.

No Mo Udall?

Larry Demic was first team All Pac 10 and a first round pick in the draft (No. 9). He had an awesome senior year and should be much higher on the list IMHO. Rooks is still too low too.

As for early Lute: where are Eddie Smith and Pete Williams?

Joe Nehls, Jim Rappis and Len Gordy should be on the list. Phil Taylor (not Harris!) was a tank down low his senior year.

Going real old school -- Ernie McCray and Joe Skaisgir! Look 'em up!

Great thread and I get to be an old fart wagging my finger and waxing nostalgic about the real good old days. So let me do so: Arizona Basketball did not start with Lute. It started with Pops McKale and the Snowden years were crazy fun too until the last couple of seasons.

What about Robbie Dosty & Herm-the-Germ?

Herm Harris and Pete Williams are on the final list

guys like Bill Davis, Eddie Myers, Albert Johnson, Bill Werner, Bill Reeves, Ernie McCray and Joe Skaisgir while all worthy I’m sure but I have no frame of reference for them.

Where's Joe McClain!!!!

atlantakat wrote:Larry Demic was first team All Pac 10 and a first round pick in the draft (No. 9). He had an awesome senior years and should be much higher on the list. Rooks is still too low too.

As for early Lute: where are Eddie Smith and Pete Williams?

Joe Nehls, Jim Rappis and Len Gordy should be on the list. Phil Harris was a tank down low his senior year.

Going real old school -- Ernie McCray and Joe Skaisgir! Look 'em up!

Great thread and I get to be an old fart wagging my finger and waxing nostalgic about the real good old days. So let me do so: Arizona Basketball did not start with Lute. It started with Pop McKale and the Snowden years were crazy fun too until the last couple of seasons.

Think you mean Phil Taylor. He looked like Sonny Liston to me snd man was he built. He averaged 10.8 rebounds his JR year while shooting 55% from the field. His Sr year he averaged 14 and 8. Fred had some great players.

Also Coniel Norman AVERAGED 10 FG’s a game in both his years with AZ which to me is incredible and will not ever be matched again. He only averaged 4 FT’S a game. I only wish we had some video of him

Norman is the starting two guard on the #3 team

Phil Taylor 1974-78 probably does belong on the list at power forward. Off the bench for three years and a starter in his senior season. Career of 10.6 ppg and 6.8 rpg. Back in those days there was a junior varsity team that played before the senior varsity. The best performing players in the first game also could suit up for the second game. Phil was always there. I remember one game in his freshman season in McKale when we were behind a little (forgot the opponent) and were getting out rebounded. During a time out Phil grabbed Fred on the shoulder and loudly pleaded "put me in Coach - I can help, I can help." Fred did. We won. Always thought that John Fogerty just might of also overheard this and when he went home wrote "Centerfield." To conclude this little saga it is my recollection that Phil had a less than ideal childhood but he did get his degree and went on to be a big success in the oil business back in Texas. Not an unusual storyline for a Snowden coached player.