Tommy Lloyd

[AzCatFan2]

Interesting dynamic at work. We're celebrating assistants and kids staying with the team after a head coaching change. This usually happens after a coach leaves for a bigger/better job, not getting fired. Makes you wonder just how raw a deal Miller got.

Lloyd is doing the best job he can, and he's not the bad guy in this story. In fact, he's very likable. He was working a great job that he never thought he'd leave until he retired after a promotion. But a true dream job opened, and he followed it. I believe Lloyd when he says Arizona is the one job he'd leave Gonzaga for. And since being hired, Lloyd has done all the right things. Let's hope he continues to, on and off the court.

The bad guys here are Robbins and his lackey, Heeke. They backed Miller all the way back in 2017, and stayed with him, lying to him, basically up to the point when Miller was fired. And for what? The NCAA NOA? If this were the case, then fire him in 2017, or right after the NOA is delivered. No. They fired Miller to try and save their own asses, and used the excuse it was time for change. Yet, here we are, celebrating that 2 assistants and the core of the team are staying!

Robbins and Heeke should have truly backed Miller, instead of stabbing him in the back. When the NOA was delivered, Heeke should have said it will be released to the public in about a month, after the school has the chance to completely dissect it. Then Heeke, Robbins, and Miller should have had a press conference regarding the release and highlight the fact that nowhere in the 23 pages the NCAA produced is the name Deandre Ayton, Jahvon Quinnerly, Brian Bowen Jr. or any of the players named on the FBI Report! Nor was there a single allegation that Arizona played a player to come to Tucson to play basketball, and the only payment at all was the $500 loan to Pinder, which was self reported, and resulted in a 2-game suspension and Pinder paying every cent back. Hammer these facts home to not only the Tucson press, but make sure there were EPSN Reporters in the room/Zoom.

But Robbins is who he is, thinks he always is the smartest person in every room on every subject, and his ego wouldn't allow him to do this. So he weaseled his way, fired Miller, and hopefully backed into a good coach in Lloyd. I just hope Lloyd is in Tucson a lot longer than Robbins.

[Merkin]

I guess I assumed yoopers would be Lions fans, but much easier to be a Packers fan.

As someone from south central Michigan, it is quite easy not to be a Lions fan. One of the worst run franchises in the history of organized sports. Ford family should have sold the Lions decades ago.

[HiCat]

Arizona coach Tommy Lloyd knows

“Listen, I understand. I know I’m an assistant coach coming from Gonzaga. I’m not naive. I know I’m put in a position where I have to earn everyone’s trust and support.”

https://arizonasports.com/story/2626727 ... ats-trust/

Likeable guy, TL seems truly genuine in his feelings about Arizona basketball.

[U.P. Zona Fan]

It's packers and detroit redwings, mostly.
Not much basketball but my wife and her friends were kinda pistons fans.
And detroit Tigers for baseball, Lions have always kind of sucked.

[dovecanyoncat]

Interesting dynamic at work. We're celebrating assistants and kids staying with the team after a head coaching change. This usually happens after a coach leaves for a bigger/better job, not getting fired. Makes you wonder just how raw a deal Miller got.

Lloyd is doing the best job he can, and he's not the bad guy in this story. In fact, he's very likable. He was working a great job that he never thought he'd leave until he retired after a promotion. But a true dream job opened, and he followed it. I believe Lloyd when he says Arizona is the one job he'd leave Gonzaga for. And since being hired, Lloyd has done all the right things. Let's hope he continues to, on and off the court.

The bad guys here are Robbins and his lackey, Heeke. They backed Miller all the way back in 2017, and stayed with him, lying to him, basically up to the point when Miller was fired. And for what? The NCAA NOA? If this were the case, then fire him in 2017, or right after the NOA is delivered. No. They fired Miller to try and save their own asses, and used the excuse it was time for change. Yet, here we are, celebrating that 2 assistants and the core of the team are staying!

Robbins and Heeke should have truly backed Miller, instead of stabbing him in the back. When the NOA was delivered, Heeke should have said it will be released to the public in about a month, after the school has the chance to completely dissect it. Then Heeke, Robbins, and Miller should have had a press conference regarding the release and highlight the fact that nowhere in the 23 pages the NCAA produced is the name Deandre Ayton, Jahvon Quinnerly, Brian Bowen Jr. or any of the players named on the FBI Report! Nor was there a single allegation that Arizona played a player to come to Tucson to play basketball, and the only payment at all was the $500 loan to Pinder, which was self reported, and resulted in a 2-game suspension and Pinder paying every cent back. Hammer these facts home to not only the Tucson press, but make sure there were EPSN Reporters in the room/Zoom.

But Robbins is who he is, thinks he always is the smartest person in every room on every subject, and his ego wouldn't allow him to do this. So he weaseled his way, fired Miller, and hopefully backed into a good coach in Lloyd. I just hope Lloyd is in Tucson a lot longer than Robbins.

The simple fact that Lloyd is a good man and a good hire who is already doing a good job in no way conditions the fact that Robbins is a snake and that Heeke is a cuck. We judge people both by what they are and by how they are. Robbins pulled off a good thing that in no way redeems him. Mode matters, and we won't forget.

What comforts me as a moral observer is my certainty that Lloyd will far outlive Robbins and Heeke in the institution we care about. If I'm wrong it will break my fucking heart.

[Longhorned]

You are soooooooo right about that dcc. I'd bet my first AND second chin on it.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Interesting dynamic at work. We're celebrating assistants and kids staying with the team after a head coaching change. This usually happens after a coach leaves for a bigger/better job, not getting fired. Makes you wonder just how raw a deal Miller got.

An honest question that occurred to me last night. Has a school ever fired a coach after making 8 of 9 tourneys (obviously projecting some), winning 65% of his games the year before the firing and being projected to be top 15 by every major publication?

Maybe Jim Harrick and Steve Fisher are the only ones I can think of, and those were both driven by the NCAA penalties directly pointed at them. It's pretty unprecedented.

Your post is dead on. Lloyd isn't the villain. Robbins and Heeke are.

I saw a Busting Brackets article. It used a straight numerical rating based on various stats for coaches over the last 5 years, 2015-16 through 2019-20. It wasn't a flattering period for Arizona, and Miller ranked 11th nationally. He was ahead of Coach K, who was 12th. It just shows, even the ugliest part of Miller's tenure was close to top ten nationally when you strip out bias.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/bustingbra ... asons/amp/

It's a crazy world when Robbins's ego looms over a top coach getting fired despite performance issues. And when it looms over the new guy who doesn't deserve it...well geez.

[Postmaster]

I’m still a bit put off by Lloyd Boeing ok with working for Robbins after he saw how things went down, and probably knew it was going to happen.

[EastCoastCat]

I’m still a bit put off by Lloyd Boeing ok with working for Robbins after he saw how things went down, and probably knew it was going to happen.

So with that premise nobody should ever Coach Arizona basketball while douchebag Robbins is President?

I get your point but it just there’s nothing that can be done about that. Someone has to be the HC.

[UAEebs86]

I’m still a bit put off by Lloyd Boeing ok with working for Robbins after he saw how things went down, and probably knew it was going to happen.

So with that premise nobody should ever Coach Arizona basketball while douchebag Robbins is President?

I get your point but it just there’s nothing that can be done about that. Someone has to be the HC.

I'm guessing he may have also been told Robbins is only going to be a here a little while longer.

[Olsondogg]

I’m still a bit put off by Lloyd Boeing ok with working for Robbins after he saw how things went down, and probably knew it was going to happen.

Imagine caring who got you your dream job...lmao

That’s like a Supreme Court justice caring who the president was that nominated them.

[wyo-cat]

You are soooooooo right about that dcc. I'd bet my first AND second chin on it.

What? U only got two chins?

Obviously, you’ve never heard the southern saying, “more chins than the Hong Kong Phone Book.”

[HiCat]

Tommy Lloyd's international recruiting changed Gonzaga forever; how will it work at Arizona?

Justin Spears, The Arizona Daily Star, Tucson Apr 16, 2021 Updated Apr 16, 2021

However, he wasn't a star from the get-go: Hachimura averaged just under five minutes per game his freshman season and came off the bench as a sophomore before developing into Gonzaga's top player as a junior.

In a world where the transfer portal has evolved into NCAA free agency, Hachimura stuck with the process. That he did speaks to the ability of Gonzaga — and Lloyd — to develop talent, not just identify it.

"I love those stories, and I think there's a lot of value in developing guys that way and having a nice mixture on your roster with young, high-potential guys that are developing, experienced veterans that have been through the wars, a young talented guy that needs to work with the veterans," Lloyd said. "So I like having that well-balanced roster to the best of your ability, and it's a challenge."

Added Lloyd: "The problem is this: the kids want instant gratification — now and if it doesn't work, they want it now again. It used to be they wanted instant gratification and if it didn't work out, well, then they had to hit pause. Whether they have things to figure out themselves or get into a new situation, time is a great teacher."

https://www.annistonstar.com/sports/col ... 6727e.html

Sounds like Coach Lloyd won't be focused on 1 and done guys, but seems to have a long term view for building Arizona's next team. Should be entertaining to watch things shake out, though my patience is thinner these days.

[BeardownZonaZona]

I wouldn't say he's not focused on OAD mercenaries but from my understanding is he's going to do some similar things that we are seeing with how Adia Barnes has constructed her past couple teams. Yes I know the draft age requirements are different but still. I think the blueprint is find multi-year guys, have a OAD or so each year to fill an immediate need (like a Jalen Suggs), and get transfers to fill holes on the roster. Look at Ballo. He's still 18 and still developing. He's a guy who probaby won't play more than 8-10 minutes a game this year. He's the classic Gonzaga type of guy who they let develop and expand his role into a starter by the time they're a junior and a stud as a senior. So I think he will definitely go after OADs, but won't fully commit to building his team around them. Should be fun to see how this translates here

[Catintheheat]

Tommy Lloyd's international recruiting changed Gonzaga forever; how will it work at Arizona?

Justin Spears, The Arizona Daily Star, Tucson Apr 16, 2021 Updated Apr 16, 2021

However, he wasn't a star from the get-go: Hachimura averaged just under five minutes per game his freshman season and came off the bench as a sophomore before developing into Gonzaga's top player as a junior.

In a world where the transfer portal has evolved into NCAA free agency, Hachimura stuck with the process. That he did speaks to the ability of Gonzaga — and Lloyd — to develop talent, not just identify it.

"I love those stories, and I think there's a lot of value in developing guys that way and having a nice mixture on your roster with young, high-potential guys that are developing, experienced veterans that have been through the wars, a young talented guy that needs to work with the veterans," Lloyd said. "So I like having that well-balanced roster to the best of your ability, and it's a challenge."

Added Lloyd: "The problem is this: the kids want instant gratification — now and if it doesn't work, they want it now again. It used to be they wanted instant gratification and if it didn't work out, well, then they had to hit pause. Whether they have things to figure out themselves or get into a new situation, time is a great teacher."

https://www.annistonstar.com/sports/col ... 6727e.html

Sounds like Coach Lloyd won't be focused on 1 and done guys, but seems to have a long term view for building Arizona's next team. Should be entertaining to watch things shake out, though my patience is thinner these days.

This is exactly what I like about CTL. The lack of development of players in college is why the game isn't as fun to watch. This is mostly lost in today's players. By getting the best players available the coach loses a lot of the opportunity to develop players. And to me that is what I enjoy about college basketball the most. And not just on a basketball skill level, but observing the players maturing over their college years. A lot of that is lost today. Teams aren't as cohesive. All we get is spurts of outstanding basketball most of the time and not steady. It is often out of flow and erratic. Team ball has given way to too much iso ball.

IMO OAD players are more about showcasing their talent instead of learning the game and how the parts work together. This is what CTL is attempting to bring to UA. Watch as many of the Cats players improve during the season and college years, as they learn the correct way to play the game. More Solomon Hills and less Grant Jerretts.

[zonagrad]

Interesting dynamic at work. We're celebrating assistants and kids staying with the team after a head coaching change. This usually happens after a coach leaves for a bigger/better job, not getting fired. Makes you wonder just how raw a deal Miller got.

An honest question that occurred to me last night. Has a school ever fired a coach after making 8 of 9 tourneys (obviously projecting some), winning 65% of his games the year before the firing and being projected to be top 15 by every major publication?

Maybe Jim Harrick and Steve Fisher are the only ones I can think of, and those were both driven by the NCAA penalties directly pointed at them. It's pretty unprecedented.

Your post is dead on. Lloyd isn't the villain. Robbins and Heeke are.

I saw a Busting Brackets article. It used a straight numerical rating based on various stats for coaches over the last 5 years, 2015-16 through 2019-20. It wasn't a flattering period for Arizona, and Miller ranked 11th nationally. He was ahead of Coach K, who was 12th. It just shows, even the ugliest part of Miller's tenure was close to top ten nationally when you strip out bias.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/bustingbra ... asons/amp/

It's a crazy world when Robbins's ego looms over a top coach getting fired despite performance issues. And when it looms over the new guy who doesn't deserve it...well geez.

And this is where the media bias takes hold. Reports about Arizona basketball and Miller will twist the narrative to, "Arizona winless in the NCAA tournament since 2017." Well no shit Sherlock. They won their conference and conference tourney in 2018 -- that's a big deal in a Power 5 Conference. Yes, they were upset by an under-seeded team in 2018. They missed the tourney in 2019. There was no tourney in 2020 -- so how could they win a game in the tourney? They were a tourney team in 2021 -- but self-sanctioned and couldn't win a game. So technically, yes you can say they haven't won a tourney game since 2017. But it's just a bullshit way to spin the narrative that firing Miller was absolutely justified.

It's amazing to read the copy of sports writers around the country who know so little about Arizona basketball, Sean Miller and the whole affair but are ready to weigh in with strong attitudes about firing Miller. I can't fathom why these same writers aren't behind firing Schlabach and Vitale -- two individuals who promoted an absolute fabrication of the facts and who refuse to acknowledge their false stories. They simply won't address the lie. And they get a pass as if it never happened. At the very least, colleagues and peers in the industry should publicly demand an explanation of a proven fabrication.

The whole affair reminds me of Walter Duranty winning a Pulitzer for the NY Times on totally fabricated stories about Stalin, while publicly discrediting an actual true stories by Gareth Jones on the Holodomor which crippled his career. Granted -- we're comparing college basketball and mass famine -- but the behavior is the same. Vitale is a modern day Duranty -- who will say whatever is needed to guarantee his place at the ESPN table and all the fruits that go with it -- but to hell with truth, facts and honesty.

[zonagrad]

Interesting dynamic at work. We're celebrating assistants and kids staying with the team after a head coaching change. This usually happens after a coach leaves for a bigger/better job, not getting fired. Makes you wonder just how raw a deal Miller got.

An honest question that occurred to me last night. Has a school ever fired a coach after making 8 of 9 tourneys (obviously projecting some), winning 65% of his games the year before the firing and being projected to be top 15 by every major publication?

Maybe Jim Harrick and Steve Fisher are the only ones I can think of, and those were both driven by the NCAA penalties directly pointed at them. It's pretty unprecedented.

Your post is dead on. Lloyd isn't the villain. Robbins and Heeke are.

I saw a Busting Brackets article. It used a straight numerical rating based on various stats for coaches over the last 5 years, 2015-16 through 2019-20. It wasn't a flattering period for Arizona, and Miller ranked 11th nationally. He was ahead of Coach K, who was 12th. It just shows, even the ugliest part of Miller's tenure was close to top ten nationally when you strip out bias.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/bustingbra ... asons/amp/

It's a crazy world when Robbins's ego looms over a top coach getting fired despite performance issues. And when it looms over the new guy who doesn't deserve it...well geez.

And this is where the media bias takes hold. Reports about Arizona basketball and Miller will twist the narrative to, "Arizona winless in the NCAA tournament since 2017." Well no shit Sherlock. They won their conference and conference tourney in 2018 -- that's a big deal in a Power 5 Conference. Yes, they were upset by an under-seeded team in 2018. They missed the tourney in 2019. There was no tourney in 2020 -- so how could they win a game in the tourney? They were a tourney team in 2021 -- but self-sanctioned and couldn't win a game. So technically, yes you can say they haven't won a tourney game since 2017. But it's just a bullshit way to spin the narrative that firing Miller was absolutely justified.

It's amazing to read the copy of sports writers around the country who know so little about Arizona basketball, Sean Miller and the whole affair but are ready to weigh in with strong attitudes about firing Miller. I can't fathom why these same writers aren't behind firing Schlabach and Vitale -- two individuals who promoted an absolute fabrication of the facts and who refuse to acknowledge their false stories. They simply won't address the lie. And they get a pass as if it never happened. At the very least, colleagues and peers in the industry should publicly demand an explanation of a proven fabrication.

The whole affair reminds me of Walter Duranty winning a Pulitzer for the NY Times on totally fabricated stories about Stalin, while publicly discrediting the actual true stories by Gareth Jones on the Holodomor which crippled his career. Granted -- we're comparing college basketball and mass famine -- but the behavior is the same. Vitale is a modern day Duranty -- who will say whatever is needed to guarantee his place at the ESPN table and all the fruits that go with it -- but to hell with truth, facts and honesty.

[gronk4heisman]

Interesting dynamic at work. We're celebrating assistants and kids staying with the team after a head coaching change. This usually happens after a coach leaves for a bigger/better job, not getting fired. Makes you wonder just how raw a deal Miller got.

An honest question that occurred to me last night. Has a school ever fired a coach after making 8 of 9 tourneys (obviously projecting some), winning 65% of his games the year before the firing and being projected to be top 15 by every major publication?

Maybe Jim Harrick and Steve Fisher are the only ones I can think of, and those were both driven by the NCAA penalties directly pointed at them. It's pretty unprecedented.

Your post is dead on. Lloyd isn't the villain. Robbins and Heeke are.

I saw a Busting Brackets article. It used a straight numerical rating based on various stats for coaches over the last 5 years, 2015-16 through 2019-20. It wasn't a flattering period for Arizona, and Miller ranked 11th nationally. He was ahead of Coach K, who was 12th. It just shows, even the ugliest part of Miller's tenure was close to top ten nationally when you strip out bias.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/bustingbra ... asons/amp/

It's a crazy world when Robbins's ego looms over a top coach getting fired despite performance issues. And when it looms over the new guy who doesn't deserve it...well geez.

Ben Howland comes to mind. He won the Pac 12 and got fired the same year and has Kyle Anderson, Norman Powell, Jordan Adams and the Wear twins coming back with Zach Lavine committed.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Interesting dynamic at work. We're celebrating assistants and kids staying with the team after a head coaching change. This usually happens after a coach leaves for a bigger/better job, not getting fired. Makes you wonder just how raw a deal Miller got.

An honest question that occurred to me last night. Has a school ever fired a coach after making 8 of 9 tourneys (obviously projecting some), winning 65% of his games the year before the firing and being projected to be top 15 by every major publication?

Maybe Jim Harrick and Steve Fisher are the only ones I can think of, and those were both driven by the NCAA penalties directly pointed at them. It's pretty unprecedented.

Your post is dead on. Lloyd isn't the villain. Robbins and Heeke are.

I saw a Busting Brackets article. It used a straight numerical rating based on various stats for coaches over the last 5 years, 2015-16 through 2019-20. It wasn't a flattering period for Arizona, and Miller ranked 11th nationally. He was ahead of Coach K, who was 12th. It just shows, even the ugliest part of Miller's tenure was close to top ten nationally when you strip out bias.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/bustingbra ... asons/amp/

It's a crazy world when Robbins's ego looms over a top coach getting fired despite performance issues. And when it looms over the new guy who doesn't deserve it...well geez.

Ben Howland comes to mind. He won the Pac 12 and got fired the same year and has Kyle Anderson, Norman Powell, Jordan Adams and the Wear twins coming back with Zach Lavine committed.

He had missed 2 tourneys in the previous 4 years and the team was rated 22nd, but he's a solid example.

I will say, the Harrick/Lavin, Fisher/Ellerbee and Howland/Alford comparisons do not set a promising precedent for the replacement.

[Beachcat97]

I will say, the Harrick/Lavin, Fisher/Ellerbee and Howland/Alford comparisons do not set a promising precedent for the replacement.

Maybe, but I just see so little basis of comparison within this group beyond that they all had good teams coming back. Lavin went 10-19 in his final season at UCLA and of course missed the tourney.

For me, the larger point here is that Miller's job performance the last few years was actually very solid, in spite of what came to pass.

A harder question: where is the bar currently set for Lloyd? What would constitute a successful first season as coach? If he misses the tournament with a team comprised almost entirely of Miller's players, does that mean he underachieved, or does the honeymoon period basically give him a pass for year one?

[Spaceman Spiff]

I will say, the Harrick/Lavin, Fisher/Ellerbee and Howland/Alford comparisons do not set a promising precedent for the replacement.

Maybe, but I just see so little basis of comparison within this group beyond that they all had good teams coming back. Lavin went 10-19 in his final season at UCLA and of course missed the tourney.

For me, the larger point here is that Miller's job performance the last few years was actually very solid, in spite of what came to pass.

A harder question: where is the bar currently set for Lloyd? What would constitute a successful first season as coach? If he misses the tournament with a team comprised almost entirely of Miller's players, does that mean he underachieved, or does the honeymoon period basically give him a pass for year one?

So, I totally agree with the bolded as the main point.

I disagree a little bit on saying the rosters aren't comparable. Ellerbee went 25-9, Lavin 24-8 and Alford 28-9 in their first years taking over. The marker of their time was more the slide downwards from there after they couldn't sustain.

On Lloyd, this is my thought about expectations. We were projected top 15 by every major ranking outlet. That is a reasonable expectation for year 1 under Lloyd. This isn't a rebuild, it's set up to win and if he missed the tourney, it's a major disappointment vs expectations.

Longer term, to have a case at being better than Miller, he'd have to win the Pac 2 times or more, make a few deep tourney runs and a Final Four in his first 5 years.

1-2+ Pac titles, 2-3 S16's and 1-2 EE's with no Final Fours in his first 5 years and I'd see him as comparable to Miller.

Short of that, I'd see him as a downgrade. I don't think 5 years is unrealistic as a time frame because this isn't a rebuild. The parts are clearly here, so he has the tools to succeed and it's only fair to expect a decent level of success.

[SabinoDrifter]

I was thinking about PGU and the moron who ran that site, wondering if he's in jail, hanging with Vegas Dave or hawking doge coin.

[Merkin]

I was thinking about PGU and the moron who ran that site, wondering if he's in jail, hanging with Vegas Dave or hawking doge coin.

After faking his death, he sold his LV business, and started a new IT one in San Diego or OC.

[AzCatFan2]

The caveat with Lloyd's success will be the IARP decision. If it's a wrist slap, then yes, Lloyd needs a PAC-12 Championship or two, plus a couple of deep runs early. If it's a hammer, expectations will need to be reset.

[YoDeFoe]

I was thinking about PGU and the moron who ran that site, wondering if he's in jail, hanging with Vegas Dave or hawking doge coin.

After faking his death, he sold his LV business, and started a new IT one in San Diego or OC.

San Diego - he actually reached out to me to connect on LinkedIn (I'm in SoCal) after banning me from his site for some small comment I made in the chatbox. What a kook.

[wyo-cat]

Doge Coin isn’t shady enough for ACE.

[SabinoDrifter]

Doge Coin isn’t shady enough for ACE.

I was thinking about PGU and the moron who ran that site, wondering if he's in jail, hanging with Vegas Dave or hawking doge coin.

After faking his death, he sold his LV business, and started a new IT one in San Diego or OC.

San Diego - he actually reached out to me to connect on LinkedIn (I'm in SoCal) after banning me from his site for some small comment I made in the chatbox. What a kook.

[YoDeFoe]

Doge Coin isn’t shady enough for ACE.

Wyo weren't you over there with me? Sad to see the site go, honestly, it was a fun group outside of the psychosis at the top.

[ChooChooCat]

Doge Coin isn’t shady enough for ACE.

Wyo weren't you over there with me? Sad to see the site go, honestly, it was a fun group outside of the psychosis at the top.

I used to post there when I was much younger. That shout box was fun, especially during games. Much like the Athletic Department here the problem with that whole get up was the “administration.” His mental instability totally brought down any good vibe that existed on that site. Total nutjob.

[wyo-cat]

Nope. There was some cat from Rock Springs there, not me.

[EastCoastCat]

I will say, the Harrick/Lavin, Fisher/Ellerbee and Howland/Alford comparisons do not set a promising precedent for the replacement.

Maybe, but I just see so little basis of comparison within this group beyond that they all had good teams coming back. Lavin went 10-19 in his final season at UCLA and of course missed the tourney.

For me, the larger point here is that Miller's job performance the last few years was actually very solid, in spite of what came to pass.

A harder question: where is the bar currently set for Lloyd? What would constitute a successful first season as coach? If he misses the tournament with a team comprised almost entirely of Miller's players, does that mean he underachieved, or does the honeymoon period basically give him a pass for year one?

So, I totally agree with the bolded as the main point.

I disagree a little bit on saying the rosters aren't comparable. Ellerbee went 25-9, Lavin 24-8 and Alford 28-9 in their first years taking over. The marker of their time was more the slide downwards from there after they couldn't sustain.

On Lloyd, this is my thought about expectations. We were projected top 15 by every major ranking outlet. That is a reasonable expectation for year 1 under Lloyd. This isn't a rebuild, it's set up to win and if he missed the tourney, it's a major disappointment vs expectations.

Longer term, to have a case at being better than Miller, he'd have to win the Pac 2 times or more, make a few deep tourney runs and a Final Four in his first 5 years.

1-2+ Pac titles, 2-3 S16's and 1-2 EE's with no Final Fours in his first 5 years and I'd see him as comparable to Miller.

Short of that, I'd see him as a downgrade. I don't think 5 years is unrealistic as a time frame because this isn't a rebuild. The parts are clearly here, so he has the tools to succeed and it's only fair to expect a decent level of success.

I'd be a bit more careful with that assessment until we see the final roster.

Yeah, we might have been a Top 15 club if the roster from last year remained in tact but now arguably the best, most consistent player on the team (Akinjo) just transferred as well as Baker and Brown who could have returned. And we still don't know 100% on what Mathurin is going to do.

At the moment - and still there's a lot to be decided - we are definitely not a Top 15 team nor do I think all the parts are clearly there yet to have the type of success next year you are expecting. That might change next week but my expectations now is not around what the results are going to be in year 1 of the Tommy Lloyd era, but will we look like an elite team in the making.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I will say, the Harrick/Lavin, Fisher/Ellerbee and Howland/Alford comparisons do not set a promising precedent for the replacement.

Maybe, but I just see so little basis of comparison within this group beyond that they all had good teams coming back. Lavin went 10-19 in his final season at UCLA and of course missed the tourney.

For me, the larger point here is that Miller's job performance the last few years was actually very solid, in spite of what came to pass.

A harder question: where is the bar currently set for Lloyd? What would constitute a successful first season as coach? If he misses the tournament with a team comprised almost entirely of Miller's players, does that mean he underachieved, or does the honeymoon period basically give him a pass for year one?

So, I totally agree with the bolded as the main point.

I disagree a little bit on saying the rosters aren't comparable. Ellerbee went 25-9, Lavin 24-8 and Alford 28-9 in their first years taking over. The marker of their time was more the slide downwards from there after they couldn't sustain.

On Lloyd, this is my thought about expectations. We were projected top 15 by every major ranking outlet. That is a reasonable expectation for year 1 under Lloyd. This isn't a rebuild, it's set up to win and if he missed the tourney, it's a major disappointment vs expectations.

Longer term, to have a case at being better than Miller, he'd have to win the Pac 2 times or more, make a few deep tourney runs and a Final Four in his first 5 years.

1-2+ Pac titles, 2-3 S16's and 1-2 EE's with no Final Fours in his first 5 years and I'd see him as comparable to Miller.

Short of that, I'd see him as a downgrade. I don't think 5 years is unrealistic as a time frame because this isn't a rebuild. The parts are clearly here, so he has the tools to succeed and it's only fair to expect a decent level of success.

I'd be a bit more careful with that assessment until we see the final roster.

Yeah, we might have been a Top 15 club if the roster from last year remained in tact but now arguably the best, most consistent player on the team (Akinjo) just transferred as well as Baker and Brown who could have returned. And we still don't know 100% on what Mathurin is going to do.

At the moment - and still there's a lot to be decided - we are definitely not a Top 15 team nor do I think all the parts are clearly there yet to have the type of success next year you are expecting. That might change next week but my expectations now is not around what the results are going to be in year 1 of the Tommy Lloyd era, but will we look like an elite team in the making.

Well, bluntly, I think the expectation is if you replace Miller, you have work to do and falling off of the pace is a disappointment.

We may not hit that mark, but...if Lloyd is legit going to be Arizona good or a worthy successor, I'd hold him to a higher standard than just being acted upon by fate. Getting guys to return of offsetting losses is part of a new coach's job and most coaches don't have what Lloyd walked in to.

Put another way, we fired someone for a season in the 30-35 KenPom range and approx a 10 seed. If Lloyd comes in and delivers that...well, didn't we just say that deserves a firing?

Some of this is because of what Robbins did, but when you do what Robbins did, you set a bar. I don't think it's unreasonable to set a bar at what we were likely to achieve next year until the UA president got involved.

[Chicat]

The unspoken promise is that even though Tommy Boy has only ever been an assistant, there will be no training wheels season. He was hired to produce on the court right away.

Let’s see if he can live up to those expectations.

[EastCoastCat]

Spiff, we know that Miller was not fired for performance reasons so I won’t attempt to engage in that comparison nor the assessment of Lloyd based on Miller’s last year or the potential of his team this year.

I’m trying to compartmentalize everything. Miller was fucked over by a President with an oversized ego and his lap dog AD. The Miller era is unfortunately over. CTL starts with a clean slate, bringing back a pretty good team but with the IARP decision looming. Plus it’s his first season of coaching in the big chair.

Having said that, this is Arizona so expectations should always be high. I’m giving LLoyd a little more leeway in his first season because of the reasons above. But by years 2-3, yes we should be S16+ type of team.

[Alieberman]

Well... Tommy's gonna have a real team year 1..... he's gonna have people either love him or hate him right away!

[azgreg]

Lloyd should go play the lottery because he's a lucky SOB. Not only did he land a storied program as his first head coaching gig but he doesn't have to rebuild a team which is usually required after a firing.

[ASUHATER!]

yeah not many people get to walk into a gig with a potentially top 25 roster

[TheCat]

We know what we are getting in most of the team but need a pg to make it go. How that void is handled either from a recruiting standpoint or current player standpoint will tell me alot.

[Longhorned]

We know what we are getting in most of the team but need a pg to make it go. How that void is handled either from a recruiting standpoint or current player standpoint will tell me alot.

Sounds like there are point guard transfers ready to roll with this roster but TyTy has first say.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Spiff, we know that Miller was not fired for performance reasons so I won’t attempt to engage in that comparison nor the assessment of Lloyd based on Miller’s last year or the potential of his team this year.

I’m trying to compartmentalize everything. Miller was fucked over by a President with an oversized ego and his lap dog AD. The Miller era is unfortunately over. CTL starts with a clean slate, bringing back a pretty good team but with the IARP decision looming. Plus it’s his first season of coaching in the big chair.

Having said that, this is Arizona so expectations should always be high. I’m giving LLoyd a little more leeway in his first season because of the reasons above. But by years 2-3, yes we should be S16+ type of team.

I agree on Robbins's actions and those driving the firing.

Where you and I disagree is I think that changes the bar for Lloyd. It may not be fair to Lloyd, but that's just life.

For example, if Robert Kraft fired Bill Belichick tomorrow, the new Patriot coach would have a bar set by the firing. Fair or not, it's just how it works when you fire someone who's winning at a decent clip.

When you replace Kevin Sumlin, no one puts pressure on year 1, but that's not this. Taking over for a tourney team projected in the top 15...I feel like I'm honestly doing him a favor by setting the bar at the current trajectory and not expecting him to outdo Miller. When there's a firing and hiring, the norm is the new guy is supposed to be better.

[EastCoastCat]

Spiff, we know that Miller was not fired for performance reasons so I won’t attempt to engage in that comparison nor the assessment of Lloyd based on Miller’s last year or the potential of his team this year.

I’m trying to compartmentalize everything. Miller was fucked over by a President with an oversized ego and his lap dog AD. The Miller era is unfortunately over. CTL starts with a clean slate, bringing back a pretty good team but with the IARP decision looming. Plus it’s his first season of coaching in the big chair.

Having said that, this is Arizona so expectations should always be high. I’m giving LLoyd a little more leeway in his first season because of the reasons above. But by years 2-3, yes we should be S16+ type of team.

I agree on Robbins's actions and those driving the firing.

Where you and I disagree is I think that changes the bar for Lloyd. It may not be fair to Lloyd, but that's just life.

For example, if Robert Kraft fired Bill Belichick tomorrow, the new Patriot coach would have a bar set by the firing. Fair or not, it's just how it works when you fire someone who's winning at a decent clip.

When you replace Kevin Sumlin, no one puts pressure on year 1, but that's not this. Taking over for a tourney team projected in the top 15...I feel like I'm honestly doing him a favor by setting the bar at the current trajectory and not expecting him to outdo Miller. When there's a firing and hiring, the norm is the new guy is supposed to be better.

I agree that we disagree but only on the finer point of what to expect next year or maybe the year after depending on the IARP outcome.

Moving forward I have the same expectations as you because you are correct when saying the new guy is supposed to be better plus this is Arizona. Not some middle of the pack program. We want and expect to always be in contention for FF's or as I like to say S16+.

I just wasn't raising the bar immediately because 1) I didn't know the final make-up of the team...that seems to have changed for the better the last few days, and 2) if by chance the IARP hammers us it could have a direct impact on CTL's team performance.

[Harvey Specter]

I will say, the Harrick/Lavin, Fisher/Ellerbee and Howland/Alford comparisons do not set a promising precedent for the replacement.

Maybe, but I just see so little basis of comparison within this group beyond that they all had good teams coming back. Lavin went 10-19 in his final season at UCLA and of course missed the tourney.

For me, the larger point here is that Miller's job performance the last few years was actually very solid, in spite of what came to pass.

A harder question: where is the bar currently set for Lloyd? What would constitute a successful first season as coach? If he misses the tournament with a team comprised almost entirely of Miller's players, does that mean he underachieved, or does the honeymoon period basically give him a pass for year one?

So, I totally agree with the bolded as the main point.

I disagree a little bit on saying the rosters aren't comparable. Ellerbee went 25-9, Lavin 24-8 and Alford 28-9 in their first years taking over. The marker of their time was more the slide downwards from there after they couldn't sustain.

On Lloyd, this is my thought about expectations. We were projected top 15 by every major ranking outlet. That is a reasonable expectation for year 1 under Lloyd. This isn't a rebuild, it's set up to win and if he missed the tourney, it's a major disappointment vs expectations.

Longer term, to have a case at being better than Miller, he'd have to win the Pac 2 times or more, make a few deep tourney runs and a Final Four in his first 5 years.

1-2+ Pac titles, 2-3 S16's and 1-2 EE's with no Final Fours in his first 5 years and I'd see him as comparable to Miller.

Short of that, I'd see him as a downgrade. I don't think 5 years is unrealistic as a time frame because this isn't a rebuild. The parts are clearly here, so he has the tools to succeed and it's only fair to expect a decent level of success.

I'd be a bit more careful with that assessment until we see the final roster.

Yeah, we might have been a Top 15 club if the roster from last year remained in tact but now arguably the best, most consistent player on the team (Akinjo) just transferred as well as Baker and Brown who could have returned. And we still don't know 100% on what Mathurin is going to do.

At the moment - and still there's a lot to be decided - we are definitely not a Top 15 team nor do I think all the parts are clearly there yet to have the type of success next year you are expecting. That might change next week but my expectations now is not around what the results are going to be in year 1 of the Tommy Lloyd era, but will we look like an elite team in the making.

Well, bluntly, I think the expectation is if you replace Miller, you have work to do and falling off of the pace is a disappointment.

We may not hit that mark, but...if Lloyd is legit going to be Arizona good or a worthy successor, I'd hold him to a higher standard than just being acted upon by fate. Getting guys to return of offsetting losses is part of a new coach's job and most coaches don't have what Lloyd walked in to.

Put another way, we fired someone for a season in the 30-35 KenPom range and approx a 10 seed. If Lloyd comes in and delivers that...well, didn't we just say that deserves a firing?

Some of this is because of what Robbins did, but when you do what Robbins did, you set a bar. I don't think it's unreasonable to set a bar at what we were likely to achieve next year until the UA president got involved.

With all due respect, this is a ridiculous take. Measuring a first-time head coach in year one taking over a roster of players he inherited by the same yardstick as you would a coach who has been in charge of a program for a dozen years, who had a LOT of baggage weighing down the program (fairly or not), is fucking inane and setting Floyd up for failure.

I had been a very staunch Miller supporter for most of this soap opera, but the drama around this program for what seems like forever was long in the tooth a while ago. Whether or not Miller deserves blame for the current situation & recent history may be debatable, but the fact that (as the man running the program) he is responsible for it is undebatable, IMO. And anyone who has no aptitude for nuance and cannot distinguish between the two, do not bother responding.

IF Floyd achieves in his first year what Miller was expected to in Year 13, he gets a full 1-2 grade bump in his restrospective assessment. I had very mixed feelings about Miller’s firing and was not at all a fan of the Lloyd hire when it was announced... but I am extremely impressed by what I have seen thus far.

Only time will tell.

[Postmaster]

If Miller was fired for on court results the comparison would make sense.
But it seems like Miller was fired because Robbins didn’t like him and was tired of having him around.

[Chicat]

With all due respect, this is a ridiculous take. Measuring a first-time head coach in year one taking over a roster of players he inherited by the same yardstick as you would a coach who has been in charge of a program for a dozen years, who had a LOT of baggage weighing down the program (fairly or not), is fucking inane and setting Floyd up for failure.

A training wheels season? At the University of Arizona?

When exactly did we become New Mexico State?

Nah...

If we get the majority of our team back AND Tommy Boy is the wunderkind we’ve been told he is, there should be no drop off. If there is, we will know it wasn’t because of a lack of talent on the roster.

[SCCats]

Some have mention Miller comparisons for results. Those sound right and I’m willing to agree: if, in season 12, you put up a 35 or so rpi season, you’ve brought no final fours but HAVE brought the cops, yes Tommy should be fired.

But otherwise some of the takes have been quite ridiculous. But considering who they are generally coming from, 100% expected.

[Chicat]

Some have mention Miller comparisons for results. Those sound right and I’m willing to agree: if, in season 12, you put up a 35 or so rpi season, you’ve brought no final fours but HAVE brought the cops, yes Tommy should be fired.

But otherwise some of the takes have been quite ridiculous. But considering who they are generally coming from, 100% expected.

Please note that you’re the first person to bring up firing Lloyd. Which would be a ridiculous take.

But being disappointed in disappointing results is now for some reason forbidden? Oh right. Training wheels season.

[EastCoastCat]

And again, I’m talking at least year 1 maybe 2 if IARP hammers us.

If we don’t get TyTy, and with the loss of Akinjo, Baker and Brown this is not last years Millers team so I’m not sure how we’d expect to be putting up the same numbers with Lloyd at the helm. It’s his first year. He’s just learning the program and his team, and he’s yet to coach 1 game. I’m saving the pitch forks for now.

If you want to pre-determine your “I told you so” position on the CTL hire fine. Go for it. Otherwise, my expectations will be based more on reality in the short term.

Long term I expect and demand Top 20 RPI’s, S16+, FF’s and Natty’s as we should.

[IndianaZonaFan]

This EXPECTATION of NCs is crazy. We have 1..EVER. Not sure you should expect multiple. That is delusional. We all know a lot of the tourney is luck.

We should expect to win conference championships and get high seeds in the tourney. I liked what Miller was able to do mostly until the Wichita State loss...don’t lose to a lower seed (except for Wisconsin 1 vs 2, which is acceptable). I feel like that is a good expectation to have.

[SCCats]

Some have mention Miller comparisons for results. Those sound right and I’m willing to agree: if, in season 12, you put up a 35 or so rpi season, you’ve brought no final fours but HAVE brought the cops, yes Tommy should be fired.

But otherwise some of the takes have been quite ridiculous. But considering who they are generally coming from, 100% expected.

Please note that you’re the first person to bring up firing Lloyd. Which would be a ridiculous take.

But being disappointed in disappointing results is now for some reason forbidden? Oh right. Training wheels season.

I’m happy to have a conversation about Miller’s disappointing results, the disappointing end to his tenure.

It was disappointing.

Being seemingly disappointed with Tommy’s results before he’s even coached a game seems...odd. It seems further odd when one wants to judge a potential 35 rpi season that hasn’t happened as unacceptable, when some here were, just a month ago, defending those kind of results from a different coach.

It’s odd. It almost seems like...

Well, people can judge that for themselves.

[Beachcat97]

I may be in the minority, but I find it very hard to calibrate expectations for next season, even given this great roster we have coming back. I like that Lloyd is going to promote fast, intuitive basketball, rather than the plodding, methodical approach we came to expect from Miller. But the on-court results are a big question mark. Need to see Lloyd on the sideline for a month or two, calling the shots, reacting to in-game situations.

Having said that, I think a bubble-level team is most likely. There's enough talent here -- with or without Tyty -- to be among the top 4 in the Pac, possibly higher if things start clicking immediately. But I could see Lloyd's first team being up and down. We'll win/lose some games we're not supposed to and probably end the reg season with 16-20 wins.

Does anyone, off the top of their head, know what our non-conf schedule looks like for next season?