1-3

[cordera89]

1. The problem is we keep having less that we try to do more with. That is not a winning strategy.

2. Don't judge the atmosphere at ASU based on the Territorial Cup; the environment in Tucson is typically just as rabid and impressive. That game is not representative of typical fan support at either venue.

3. ASU has some appealing factors to their environment, no doubt. So do we, and different things appeal to different people - I doubt Tusclaoosa or Columbus have anything to compare, and ASU is not stealing recruits from those schools. All the things you say about Tucson not being a "football town, recruit or coach destination, etc"... Those are true, and they would also be true about BB if we did not already have a winning tradition.

We need a home run hire who wants to be here if we are ever going to take that step. It might never happen, for many of the reasons you state. But I am not ready to accept that we are destined to be ASU's understudy because of Mill Ave and Tempe Town Lake.

A winning coach at Arizona will always have to do more with less. We are not USC or UCLA. The sooner we all learn that the sooner we'll be a "smart" fan base.

I've been at both environments. UA is great during the rivalry game, it will never be able to host that kind of crown cause of the size of of our facilities...and wait until they finished their renovation, we will be literally left behind the dust. Just look the plans, super impressive.

It is easy to say, "we need a home run hire." Who? How much would be have to pay? Would we be able to afford that amount if we fire RR and then have to do the pay out?

Let's stop with the fantasies and deal with reality, can we?

But no one seem to get it or understand that situation. And I still couldn't find an answer to your question you ask me before.

Arizona isn't stupid of letting RR go because who in their right mind can do better than RR in four years.

The fantasies people can dream on having a successful season, Some wouldn't go that far.

To see their crowd is like saying how can our crowd can be just like them support the football team when things don't go there way.

[UALoco]

I don't know how anyone could compare fan bases. Both fan bases are "fair weather" which is fairly common in the P12. They are more alike than they are different, except for class of of course, they are a classless bunch.

I just hope RR stays. I am ok with constructive criticism. I think we should make a change with our D and the fact that RR wont do anything on that front is probably his biggest wart. It is funny that it is loyalty that might keep him here but it is also what will keep the staff in tact.

There is no correct answer in this "fire RR" argument. I think we can't do much better but can't prove it. RR's critics think he deserves to be let go but can't prove we can do better. You can spout all the stats you want but you can't tell the future.

[Harvey Specter]

I don't know how anyone could compare fan bases. Both fan bases are "fair weather" which is fairly common in the P12. They are more alike than they are different, except for class of of course, they are a classless bunch.

I just hope RR stays. I am ok with constructive criticism. I think we should make a change with our D and the fact that RR wont do anything on that front is probably his biggest wart. It is funny that it is loyalty that might keep him here but it is also what will keep the staff in tact.

There is no correct answer in this "fire RR" argument. I think we can't do much better but can't prove it. "RR's critics think he deserves to be let go" but can't prove we can do better. You can spout all the stats you want but you can't tell the future.

I don't think anyone (or at least not more than a couple) think RR deserves to be let go. I sure don't, and I would say I am among the more disgruntled at the moment. I think he is a good coach, and our program will be decent to good while he is here. I don't think we'll be great or awful... we'll get limited talent because of our inherent disadvantages and get more out of it than most.

Some of it is venting, and some of it is angst / frustration with the belief that others build his tenure thus far to be better than it has been. I am coming to accept that we will never recruit the way I wish we could, and that we have inherent disadvantages to ASU; I'll never be cool with that, but it is what it is.

Riley had a good run at ntOSU for a while with that formula, and so did Tomey. It is certainly better than where we have been for almost 2 decades, so it is probably just time to appreciate it.

[cordera89]

I don't know how anyone could compare fan bases. Both fan bases are "fair weather" which is fairly common in the P12. They are more alike than they are different, except for class of of course, they are a classless bunch.

I just hope RR stays. I am ok with constructive criticism. I think we should make a change with our D and the fact that RR wont do anything on that front is probably his biggest wart. It is funny that it is loyalty that might keep him here but it is also what will keep the staff in tact.

RR isn't leaving Arizona even if he get offer by a school. Some school wouldn't even touch a coach with a 6-6 record unless they want to bypass that portion in just say they rather have him for his offense but not defense. Even if he does make some changes on D it would be hard on him not to make changes on D. Loyalty is a strong word but sometime that line will be servers if things don't improve.

There is no correct answer in this "fire RR" argument. I think we can't do much better but can't prove it. RR's critics think he deserves to be let go but can't prove we can do better. You can spout all the stats you want but you can't tell the future.

The critics can say what ever they want, they cant predict his future only RR can predict his own future.

[catinfl]

And Graham is locking down in state recruiting

He's locked down one player who can be really good in N'Keal Harry. Another who is a 4*, but some people aren't high on in Lucas. The Chandler coach will probably be on ASU's roster next year also. So, he hasn't "locked down" the state.

[ASUHATER!]

Didn't say he locked down the state. I said he is locking down the state.. not done yet but well on his way.

[Harvey Specter]

Didn't say he locked down the state. I said he is locking down the state.. not done yet but well on his way.

^ This.

He appears to have a very good shot to lock down 3 of the state's top 5 prospects, with an outside shot at 4. Let's see what actually happens, but I would say that is 'on his way' to locking down the state. I don't really know how anyone can make the argument that ASU isn't cleaning our clock in in-state recruiting; both staffs talked about it being a priority when they were hired.

Some people may not be high on Lucas, but there are a ton of prospects we have signed that a lot of schools weren't high on. (Yes, Scooby was one of them.... finding a needle in the hay stack does not turn all the hay into needles).

[catinfl]

Didn't say he locked down the state. I said he is locking down the state.. not done yet but well on his way.

^ This.

He appears to have a very good shot to lock down 3 of the state's top 5 prospects, with an outside shot at 4. Let's see what actually happens, but I would say that is 'on his way' to locking down the state. I don't really know how anyone can make the argument that ASU isn't cleaning our clock in in-state recruiting; both staffs talked about it being a priority when they were hired.

Some people may not be high on Lucas, but there are a ton of prospects we have signed that a lot of schools weren't high on. (Yes, Scooby was one of them.... finding a needle in the hay stack does not turn all the hay into needles).

He might get Bryon Murphy, but once again Chandler's coach is probably on ASU's staff next year. Lucas is a good player and I think he will be a good CB, but the position he is selling to Lucas probably won't end up being the one he plays. Like Tyler Whiley who was only recruited to play WR by asu was given a shot for fall camp than was moved to DB. If he can continue to do it in the 2017 cycle than he will be on his way to locking down the state

[Spaceman Spiff]

As much as I wanted to beat ASU, I didn't honestly expect a different result. Is anyone actually shocked?

Here's my best realistic take. We won some games we really shouldn't have (UW, Cal) last year. Those breaks gave us an impressive record that didn't correspond with our talent level. This year, we got hammered with injuries. Minus the injuries, 8-9 wins might have been possible, but it wasn't gonna happen with them.

Losing to ASU happened because we were without our most important offensive and defensive player. I get concerns about recruiting, but even there, who would realistically do better than RR? Other than impotent anger at losing to ASU, what else is really at play here?

[Scummy Dick Douglas]

Didn't say he locked down the state. I said he is locking down the state.. not done yet but well on his way.

^ This.

He appears to have a very good shot to lock down 3 of the state's top 5 prospects, with an outside shot at 4. Let's see what actually happens, but I would say that is 'on his way' to locking down the state. I don't really know how anyone can make the argument that ASU isn't cleaning our clock in in-state recruiting; both staffs talked about it being a priority when they were hired.

Some people may not be high on Lucas, but there are a ton of prospects we have signed that a lot of schools weren't high on. (Yes, Scooby was one of them.... finding a needle in the hay stack does not turn all the hay into needles).

He might get Bryon Murphy, but once again Chandler's coach is probably on ASU's staff next year. Lucas is a good player and I think he will be a good CB, but the position he is selling to Lucas probably won't end up being the one he plays. Like Tyler Whiley who was only recruited to play WR by asu was given a shot for fall camp than was moved to DB. If he can continue to do it in the 2017 cycle than he will be on his way to locking down the state

Byron Murphy plays for Saguaro, so I am not sure how much affect Aguano (Chandlers coach) has on him. He is close to family and is very close to Harry and Lucas, so that could play a role. At the same time, he is strongly considering A&M and his HS coach (Mohns) does some coaching clinic for them every year. His recruitment is a real tossup.

Lucas is being recruited to play safety at ASU. They have talked about getting him a few offensive packages, but they are pretty clear on where they see him long term (and he knows his biggest upside is on defense). FTR, Tyler Whiley asked to be moved to defense because he was buried on the offensive depth chart. Graham and his crew aren't selling kids one position just to switch them. They have to be on board with any changes.

[Harvey Specter]

As much as I wanted to beat ASU, I didn't honestly expect a different result. Is anyone actually shocked?

Here's my best realistic take. We won some games we really shouldn't have (UW, Cal) last year. Those breaks gave us an impressive record that didn't correspond with our talent level. This year, we got hammered with injuries. Minus the injuries, 8-9 wins might have been possible, but it wasn't gonna happen with them.

Losing to ASU happened because we were without our most important offensive and defensive player. I get concerns about recruiting, but even there, who would realistically do better than RR? Other than impotent anger at losing to ASU, what else is really at play here?

From a recruiting standpoint, overall RR has not moved the needle vs what Stoops was able to accomplish - and he should have some definite inherent advantages, but it is not translating IMO. Graham is doing considerably better than Erickson did...

Maybe that is our ceiling, which is certainly possible. If so, RR is doing about what we have come to expect overall (better on O, worse on D) - but he is not doing much better. It also suggest that ASU's ceiling for recruiting is higher than ours (which is probably true, although I hate to admit it).

You are right; the angst is largely fueled by impotent anger at losing to ASU. I am not surprised we lost, but it still pisses me off; i think their team this year was shitty and I thought we could win. My view on the season would admittedly be quite different had we found a way to win that game.

Rational? No, but neither is posting on an anonymous internet fan message board.

[Scummy Dick Douglas]

And Graham is locking down in state recruiting

He's locked down one player who can be really good in N'Keal Harry. Another who is a 4*, but some people aren't high on in Lucas. The Chandler coach will probably be on ASU's roster next year also. So, he hasn't "locked down" the state.

How would you define "locking down the state"?

[Spaceman Spiff]

As much as I wanted to beat ASU, I didn't honestly expect a different result. Is anyone actually shocked?

Here's my best realistic take. We won some games we really shouldn't have (UW, Cal) last year. Those breaks gave us an impressive record that didn't correspond with our talent level. This year, we got hammered with injuries. Minus the injuries, 8-9 wins might have been possible, but it wasn't gonna happen with them.

Losing to ASU happened because we were without our most important offensive and defensive player. I get concerns about recruiting, but even there, who would realistically do better than RR? Other than impotent anger at losing to ASU, what else is really at play here?

From a recruiting standpoint, overall RR has not moved the needle vs what Stoops was able to accomplish - and he should have some definite inherent advantages, but it is not translating IMO. Graham is doing considerably better than Erickson did...

Maybe that is our ceiling, which is certainly possible. If so, RR is doing about what we have come to expect overall (better on O, worse on D) - but he is not doing much better. It also suggest that ASU's ceiling for recruiting is higher than ours (which is probably true, although I hate to admit it).

You are right; the angst is largely fueled by impotent anger at losing to ASU. I am not surprised we lost, but it still pisses me off; i think their team this year was shitty and I thought we could win. My view on the season would admittedly be quite different had we found a way to win that game.

Rational? No, but neither is posting on an anonymous internet fan message board.

I agree with pretty much all of this. ASU was down this year, and if I thought we had a chance on Saturday, it was based on them not being very good. The only thing that I really feel differently about is that I would find some comfort in beating ASU, but my overall take on the season would still revolve around injuries killing it.

ASU has a higher recruiting ceiling by virtue of being in the Phoenix metro area. Being the main destination in the state and being almost literally in the backyard of where the vast majority of instate talent comes from helps.

I don't know if it makes me a bad fan, but for a while now, the big thing for me has been next year. This year got washed away in a tide of injuries and beating a vulnerable ASU team was one casualty.

[catinfl]

And Graham is locking down in state recruiting

He's locked down one player who can be really good in N'Keal Harry. Another who is a 4*, but some people aren't high on in Lucas. The Chandler coach will probably be on ASU's roster next year also. So, he hasn't "locked down" the state.

How would you define "locking down the state"?

Getting talent from more than one school and for more than one year. If he can get Connor Murphy and Byron than he successfully locked down the state for 2016, but right now he has N'Keal (Props big pickup) and Lucas (Still a good pickup) and Hill (monster). If he can carry on this momentum in 2017 than he has the ability to lock down the state, but right now i'm in a wait in see mode to see if he can get the guys that aren't at schools that usually send kids to asu like Brophy with Murphy.

[uacat540]

And Graham is locking down in state recruiting

He's locked down one player who can be really good in N'Keal Harry. Another who is a 4*, but some people aren't high on in Lucas. The Chandler coach will probably be on ASU's roster next year also. So, he hasn't "locked down" the state.

How would you define "locking down the state"?

Getting talent from more than one school and for more than one year. If he can get Connor Murphy and Byron than he successfully locked down the state for 2016, but right now he has N'Keal (Props big pickup) and Lucas (Still a good pickup) and Hill (monster). If he can carry on this momentum in 2017 than he has the ability to lock down the state, but right now i'm in a wait in see mode to see if he can get the guys that aren't at schools that usually send kids to asu like Brophy with Murphy.

Graham has some good success this year, but name one recruit that he has developed to be a better player in his tenure? He reminds me of a typical used car salesman who tells the recruit what they want to hear and then does stuff like switch them to the position they really wanted him to play all long. The best thing about this year is none of the younger players got significant time. I find it hard to believe that Wilkins, Perkins, White are not better options they Berco-tard. I have not seen one recruit develop into a significant part of their team under the 4 years of his coaching. Let me lock down the state all he wants, if he can't develop the talent it means nothing.

[splitsecond]

And Graham is locking down in state recruiting

He's locked down one player who can be really good in N'Keal Harry. Another who is a 4*, but some people aren't high on in Lucas. The Chandler coach will probably be on ASU's roster next year also. So, he hasn't "locked down" the state.

How would you define "locking down the state"?

Getting talent from more than one school and for more than one year. If he can get Connor Murphy and Byron than he successfully locked down the state for 2016, but right now he has N'Keal (Props big pickup) and Lucas (Still a good pickup) and Hill (monster). If he can carry on this momentum in 2017 than he has the ability to lock down the state, but right now i'm in a wait in see mode to see if he can get the guys that aren't at schools that usually send kids to asu like Brophy with Murphy.

Graham has some good success this year, but name one recruit that he has developed to be a better player in his tenure? He reminds me of a typical used car salesman who tells the recruit what they want to hear and then does stuff like switch them to the position they really wanted him to play all long. The best thing about this year is none of the younger players got significant time. I find it hard to believe that Wilkins, Perkins, White are not better options they Berco-tard. I have not seen one recruit develop into a significant part of their team under the 4 years of his coaching. Let me lock down the state all he wants, if he can't develop the talent it means nothing.

This is so true. Look at what became of DJ Foster this year.


On topic, I don't know how anyone expected a win with the injuries we had. We were lucky to have kept it interesting as long as we did.

[Scummy Dick Douglas]

And Graham is locking down in state recruiting

He's locked down one player who can be really good in N'Keal Harry. Another who is a 4*, but some people aren't high on in Lucas. The Chandler coach will probably be on ASU's roster next year also. So, he hasn't "locked down" the state.

How would you define "locking down the state"?

Getting talent from more than one school and for more than one year. If he can get Connor Murphy and Byron than he successfully locked down the state for 2016, but right now he has N'Keal (Props big pickup) and Lucas (Still a good pickup) and Hill (monster). If he can carry on this momentum in 2017 than he has the ability to lock down the state, but right now i'm in a wait in see mode to see if he can get the guys that aren't at schools that usually send kids to asu like Brophy with Murphy.

Graham has some good success this year, but name one recruit that he has developed to be a better player in his tenure? He reminds me of a typical used car salesman who tells the recruit what they want to hear and then does stuff like switch them to the position they really wanted him to play all long. The best thing about this year is none of the younger players got significant time. I find it hard to believe that Wilkins, Perkins, White are not better options they Berco-tard. I have not seen one recruit develop into a significant part of their team under the 4 years of his coaching. Let me lock down the state all he wants, if he can't develop the talent it means nothing.

Players that developed under Graham, (to name a few), Will Sutton, Carl Bradford, Chris Young, Damarious Randall, Taylor Kelly, Marcus Hardison, Marion Grice, Jaelen Strong, Lloyd Carrington, Jamil Douglas, Demetrious Cherry, Antonio Longino, and yes DJ Foster ( I could make this list much longer btw. DJ Foster is one of a very few football players in college football to amass over 2000 yards rushing and 2000 yards receiving in his career. You don't do that without development. His move to WR this year was his idea, something he wanted to do to improve his draft stock. Problem is, it was never his best position. The position he played the last few games is more like what he has done the last 3 years, more a slot receiving running back.

Judging from your post, you either don't know anything about football, or were simply trying to troll me.

[Harvey Specter]

He's locked down one player who can be really good in N'Keal Harry. Another who is a 4*, but some people aren't high on in Lucas. The Chandler coach will probably be on ASU's roster next year also. So, he hasn't "locked down" the state.

How would you define "locking down the state"?

Getting talent from more than one school and for more than one year. If he can get Connor Murphy and Byron than he successfully locked down the state for 2016, but right now he has N'Keal (Props big pickup) and Lucas (Still a good pickup) and Hill (monster). If he can carry on this momentum in 2017 than he has the ability to lock down the state, but right now i'm in a wait in see mode to see if he can get the guys that aren't at schools that usually send kids to asu like Brophy with Murphy.

Graham has some good success this year, but name one recruit that he has developed to be a better player in his tenure? He reminds me of a typical used car salesman who tells the recruit what they want to hear and then does stuff like switch them to the position they really wanted him to play all long. The best thing about this year is none of the younger players got significant time. I find it hard to believe that Wilkins, Perkins, White are not better options they Berco-tard. I have not seen one recruit develop into a significant part of their team under the 4 years of his coaching. Let me lock down the state all he wants, if he can't develop the talent it means nothing.

This is so true. Look at what became of DJ Foster this year.


On topic, I don't know how anyone expected a win with the injuries we had. We were lucky to have kept it interesting as long as we did.

I think many of us believed we had a chance because ASU sucked most of this year.... but I don't think many expected us to win, because after the injuries we have had - we did for much of the season too.

[Harvey Specter]

He's locked down one player who can be really good in N'Keal Harry. Another who is a 4*, but some people aren't high on in Lucas. The Chandler coach will probably be on ASU's roster next year also. So, he hasn't "locked down" the state.

How would you define "locking down the state"?

Getting talent from more than one school and for more than one year. If he can get Connor Murphy and Byron than he successfully locked down the state for 2016, but right now he has N'Keal (Props big pickup) and Lucas (Still a good pickup) and Hill (monster). If he can carry on this momentum in 2017 than he has the ability to lock down the state, but right now i'm in a wait in see mode to see if he can get the guys that aren't at schools that usually send kids to asu like Brophy with Murphy.

Graham has some good success this year, but name one recruit that he has developed to be a better player in his tenure? He reminds me of a typical used car salesman who tells the recruit what they want to hear and then does stuff like switch them to the position they really wanted him to play all long. The best thing about this year is none of the younger players got significant time. I find it hard to believe that Wilkins, Perkins, White are not better options they Berco-tard. I have not seen one recruit develop into a significant part of their team under the 4 years of his coaching. Let me lock down the state all he wants, if he can't develop the talent it means nothing.

Players that developed under Graham, (to name a few), Will Sutton, Carl Bradford, Chris Young, Damarious Randall, Taylor Kelly, Marcus Hardison, Marion Grice, Jaelen Strong, Lloyd Carrington, Jamil Douglas, Demetrious Cherry, Antonio Longino, and yes DJ Foster ( I could make this list much longer btw. DJ Foster is one of a very few football players in college football to amass over 2000 yards rushing and 2000 yards receiving in his career. You don't do that without development. His move to WR this year was his idea, something he wanted to do to improve his draft stock. Problem is, it was never his best position. The position he played the last few games is more like what he has done the last 3 years, more a slot receiving running back.

Judging from your post, you either don't know anything about football, or were simply trying to troll me.

Not sure if it is trolling or more of us trying to make ourselves feet better after losing to you turds again.

No one dislikes Graham more than me (I really can't stand the guy), but he is a good football coach - certainly much better than I thought when he was hired, incredibly annoying tendencies aside.

[uacat540]

You really shouldn't bring up DJ foster, you do realize a majority of his yards came against lower level teams? He's only had 2 100 yard rushing games in his entire career (Notre Dame 2014/Arizona 2013). I also said Graham recruit, not a leftover Erickson recruit. Name a recruit that Graham has directly recruited that ended up developing under his watch. The one and only one i can think of is Damarious Randall. Jalen Strong was a man amongst boys who was ready to leave no mater what team he was on. And by no means am I saying RichRod is developing talent either.

[Scummy Dick Douglas]

You really shouldn't bring up DJ foster, you do realize a majority of his yards came against lower level teams? He's only had 2 100 yard rushing games in his entire career (Notre Dame 2014/Arizona 2013). I also said Graham recruit, not a leftover Erickson recruit. Name a recruit that Graham has directly recruited that ended up developing under his watch. The one and only one i can think of is Damarious Randall. Jalen Strong was a man amongst boys who was ready to leave no mater what team he was on. And by no means am I saying RichRod is developing talent either.

You basically just made my point for me, you do not understand football. Outside of a select few 5* kids, (and even they are unlikely) you do not go from high school or a JC to a D1 program and make it to the pros without some development. Whether Ericsson's recruits or Graham's, everyone I mentioned has realized major strides in technique, strength, conditioning, etc. There is a reason kids generally don't play right out of HS, and when they do it usually signals you are in for a rough season.

RR is absolutely developing talent. Maybe not to your liking, but Scooby, for instance, was not good enough to do what he did without some form of coaching and conditioning at UA.

When it comes to DJ Foster, you are looking at him as strictly a RB and declaring him a failure. He basically spent half of a single season as the feature RB. (First two years was Grice, then he was tabbed the main RB last season for about half the year until Demario Richard supplanted him, and this year he spent half the season in a true WR role before coming back to the role be played primarily when Grice was around- RB/WR hybrid.) So to properly gauge his impact, take a look at his his total production per game. Sure you will find plenty of games where he has like 50 yards rushing, but you are failing to recognize the other 50 or 60 yards receiving in those games. ASU doesn't rely on a single back, at least they try not to. I think their is something like only 4 other players to do what DJ has done in his career at ASU with regards to the 2k rushing / 2k receiving stat.

[uacat540]

Again, you don't seem to understand that Graham has had guys to develop that were not him. A true graham talent like Chans Cox or Brady White can't crack the starting line up. You can sit here and talk about how only 4 players have achieved what DJ Foster has done and thats great. But he also has regressed terribly over the 4 years under Graham. Taylor Kelly had a similar issue (granted part of it was injury) where he regressed as his years went on under Graham. I have yet to watch a true Graham recruit and say to myself, damn he has gotten "x" percent better than he was. While I do not know everything about football, I know enough to see that Graham (while a decent coach) has trouble developing talent. The guys he has put into the NFL, aren't exactly setting the world on fire either. Other than Randall and Douglas, must guys have been underwhelming.

And while I love Scooby, he is fighting an up hill battle to the NFL. He also benefited from some other decent guys on the defense from last year and helped his numbers. His year was set up to take a step back this year and I fully expected it. Also conditioning isn't part of a head coaches job bud, thats the strength and conditioning staff.

[Scummy Dick Douglas]

Again, you don't seem to understand that Graham has had guys to develop that were not him. A true graham talent like Chans Cox or Brady White can't crack the starting line up. You can sit here and talk about how only 4 players have achieved what DJ Foster has done and thats great. But he also has regressed terribly over the 4 years under Graham. Taylor Kelly had a similar issue (granted part of it was injury) where he regressed as his years went on under Graham. I have yet to watch a true Graham recruit and say to myself, damn he has gotten "x" percent better than he was. While I do not know everything about football, I know enough to see that Graham (while a decent coach) has trouble developing talent. The guys he has put into the NFL, aren't exactly setting the world on fire either. Other than Randall and Douglas, must guys have been underwhelming.

And while I love Scooby, he is fighting an up hill battle to the NFL. He also benefited from some other decent guys on the defense from last year and helped his numbers. His year was set up to take a step back this year and I fully expected it. Also conditioning isn't part of a head coaches job bud, thats the strength and conditioning staff.

Brady White is a true freshman who is redshirting behind a 5th year senior. Not sure how he was supposed to be developed by now. As far as Chans Cox goes, every player has those. And this is true of UA if you are already judging RR as incapable of developing talent: it takes time to develop talent. Some guys, even 4* guys, the light never goes on, especially if they faced poor competition in HS. Connor Humphreys, is another guy that fits this mold. He was ranked very high as a HS recruit, but played in Oregon where the competition was poor. Some ASU fans thought he was going to step right in and start. The fact is, it will take him till his JR or SR year to contribute. And if you are building proper depth, that should be the case. You want your guys to have the time to develop.

You stating that RR doesn't develop talent pretty much tells me you don't understand how these kid develop. RR is absolutely developing the kids on his roster. How do you gauge whether or not someone is successfully developed?

[uacat540]

Again, you don't seem to understand that Graham has had guys to develop that were not him. A true graham talent like Chans Cox or Brady White can't crack the starting line up. You can sit here and talk about how only 4 players have achieved what DJ Foster has done and thats great. But he also has regressed terribly over the 4 years under Graham. Taylor Kelly had a similar issue (granted part of it was injury) where he regressed as his years went on under Graham. I have yet to watch a true Graham recruit and say to myself, damn he has gotten "x" percent better than he was. While I do not know everything about football, I know enough to see that Graham (while a decent coach) has trouble developing talent. The guys he has put into the NFL, aren't exactly setting the world on fire either. Other than Randall and Douglas, must guys have been underwhelming.

And while I love Scooby, he is fighting an up hill battle to the NFL. He also benefited from some other decent guys on the defense from last year and helped his numbers. His year was set up to take a step back this year and I fully expected it. Also conditioning isn't part of a head coaches job bud, thats the strength and conditioning staff.

Brady White is a true freshman who is redshirting behind a 5th year senior. Not sure how he was supposed to be developed by now. As far as Chans Cox goes, every player has those. And this is true of UA if you are already judging RR as incapable of developing talent: it takes time to develop talent. Some guys, even 4* guys, the light never goes on, especially if they faced poor competition in HS. Connor Humphreys, is another guy that fits this mold. He was ranked very high as a HS recruit, but played in Oregon where the competition was poor. Some ASU fans thought he was going to step right in and start. The fact is, it will take him till his JR or SR year to contribute. And if you are building proper depth, that should be the case. You want your guys to have the time to develop.

You stating that RR doesn't develop talent pretty much tells me you don't understand how these kid develop. RR is absolutely developing the kids on his roster. How do you gauge whether or not someone is successfully developed?

So maybe Brady white is a bad example, but how in the world is Berco a better QB then Wilkins? And I judge talent by production on the field, and yes RichRod is struggling with development and recruiting, which is a bad combo. I don't believe in the 4* vs 5* vs no star way of judging talent. Graham has landed a number of what were supposed to be dynamite players (Westerman, Cox, Humphreys-all State of Arizona Recruits) and they have failed to show they can get on the field and play. What I also mean by developing talent is how is it that most of the success that Graham has had has been with the former staff recruits and not his own. At year 3, id say a majority of the production RR got was from his talent (Scooby, Anu, Wilson, Grant) while a lot of production on the field for ASU was largely Erikson (Minus strong) recruits. How has Graham taken the top talent from Arizona and not had them crack the two deeps?

Hell, look at ASU's mediocre receiving core and their best one was a graduate transfer from UCLA who wasn't probably 4-6th on the depth chart at UCLA. That speaks to development issue right there and that a 4th year coach can not develop top talent into a starting position. There is no way that lucien should be anything more than a #3 receiver this year, especially for a coach who screams high octane and an OC who calls himself an elite play caller.

And how is it in year 4 (which should be most of Grahams talent by now) ASU corners get torched, ASU receivers can barely catch the ball and the ASU QB is what really equates to maybe a DII talent? As you can see, with Grahams team, talent development and coaching skills, they regressed back to the mean of what really is Arizona State football-mediocre. Just like Arizona.

[Harvey Specter]

Again, you don't seem to understand that Graham has had guys to develop that were not him. A true graham talent like Chans Cox or Brady White can't crack the starting line up. You can sit here and talk about how only 4 players have achieved what DJ Foster has done and thats great. But he also has regressed terribly over the 4 years under Graham. Taylor Kelly had a similar issue (granted part of it was injury) where he regressed as his years went on under Graham. I have yet to watch a true Graham recruit and say to myself, damn he has gotten "x" percent better than he was. While I do not know everything about football, I know enough to see that Graham (while a decent coach) has trouble developing talent. The guys he has put into the NFL, aren't exactly setting the world on fire either. Other than Randall and Douglas, must guys have been underwhelming.

And while I love Scooby, he is fighting an up hill battle to the NFL. He also benefited from some other decent guys on the defense from last year and helped his numbers. His year was set up to take a step back this year and I fully expected it. Also conditioning isn't part of a head coaches job bud, thats the strength and conditioning staff.

That's a silly comment.

Look at an org chart for the football program; it ALL falls under the head coach. He's not personally responsible for executing & delivering on the responsibilities of each role in his organization himself, but he is responsible for how the guys on his staff do their jobs.

He owns accountability for everything; the buck stops on the head coach's desk.

[uacat540]

Again, you don't seem to understand that Graham has had guys to develop that were not him. A true graham talent like Chans Cox or Brady White can't crack the starting line up. You can sit here and talk about how only 4 players have achieved what DJ Foster has done and thats great. But he also has regressed terribly over the 4 years under Graham. Taylor Kelly had a similar issue (granted part of it was injury) where he regressed as his years went on under Graham. I have yet to watch a true Graham recruit and say to myself, damn he has gotten "x" percent better than he was. While I do not know everything about football, I know enough to see that Graham (while a decent coach) has trouble developing talent. The guys he has put into the NFL, aren't exactly setting the world on fire either. Other than Randall and Douglas, must guys have been underwhelming.

And while I love Scooby, he is fighting an up hill battle to the NFL. He also benefited from some other decent guys on the defense from last year and helped his numbers. His year was set up to take a step back this year and I fully expected it. Also conditioning isn't part of a head coaches job bud, thats the strength and conditioning staff.

That's a silly comment.

Look at an org chart for the football program; it ALL falls under the head coach. He's not personally responsible for executing & delivering on the responsibilities of each role in his organization himself, but he is responsible for how the guys on his staff do their jobs.

He owns accountability for everything; the buck stops on the head coach's desk.

But as for involvement of everything, S&C is probably where a coach gives more control to that person than anything else. He says I want the guys to be able to do X and then the S&C coach goes from there. RR lays out the plan and then the S&C coach kind of goes from there. I highly doubt most coaches are watching the plan every minute of every day.

[Scummy Dick Douglas]

You really shouldn't bring up DJ foster, you do realize a majority of his yards came against lower level teams? He's only had 2 100 yard rushing games in his entire career (Notre Dame 2014/Arizona 2013). I also said Graham recruit, not a leftover Erickson recruit. Name a recruit that Graham has directly recruited that ended up developing under his watch. The one and only one i can think of is Damarious Randall. Jalen Strong was a man amongst boys who was ready to leave no mater what team he was on. And by no means am I saying RichRod is developing talent either.

So I went and looked at actual numbers. DJ fosters career at ASU

2012: 493 rushing yards (4.8 YPC) / 533 yards receiving / 6 TD
2013: 501 rushing yards (5.4 YPC) / 653 yards receiving / 10 TD
2014: 1002 rushing yards (5.5 YPC) / 646 yards receiving / 12 TD
2015: 278 rushing yards (5.6 YPC) / 512 yards receiving / 4 TD

So the kid improves every year, except the one where he attempts to fill Jaelen Strongs shoes (a complete position change) with a new QB taking the reigns, and you think he hasn't developed? What am I missing? Oh and I checked, he didn't return to his old position until the UW game.

Another guy you brought up was Jaelen Strong. Strong has incredible hands, but was out of shape, didn't know how to run routes, couldn't block, and couldn't get separation. By the time he was drafted he had improved his route running, was a MUCH improved blocker, and in great shape. Though his ability to get separation could have improved it was the only thing another year at ASU could have arguably helped. Point is, he was another kid who developed.

I could do this with most of the ASU roster. Just like I could probably do this with most of the UA roster. I don't think you quite understand how much of a jump there is from high school to college. These kids aren't starting on a D1 football team without significant development.

Now if you are saying you are not happy with the level of development, that's a different story. But to say TG and RR are failing to develop their respective rosters is just dumb

[Harvey Specter]

Again, you don't seem to understand that Graham has had guys to develop that were not him. A true graham talent like Chans Cox or Brady White can't crack the starting line up. You can sit here and talk about how only 4 players have achieved what DJ Foster has done and thats great. But he also has regressed terribly over the 4 years under Graham. Taylor Kelly had a similar issue (granted part of it was injury) where he regressed as his years went on under Graham. I have yet to watch a true Graham recruit and say to myself, damn he has gotten "x" percent better than he was. While I do not know everything about football, I know enough to see that Graham (while a decent coach) has trouble developing talent. The guys he has put into the NFL, aren't exactly setting the world on fire either. Other than Randall and Douglas, must guys have been underwhelming.

And while I love Scooby, he is fighting an up hill battle to the NFL. He also benefited from some other decent guys on the defense from last year and helped his numbers. His year was set up to take a step back this year and I fully expected it. Also conditioning isn't part of a head coaches job bud, thats the strength and conditioning staff.

That's a silly comment.

Look at an org chart for the football program; it ALL falls under the head coach. He's not personally responsible for executing & delivering on the responsibilities of each role in his organization himself, but he is responsible for how the guys on his staff do their jobs.

He owns accountability for everything; the buck stops on the head coach's desk.

But as for involvement of everything, S&C is probably where a coach gives more control to that person than anything else. He says I want the guys to be able to do X and then the S&C coach goes from there. RR lays out the plan and then the S&C coach kind of goes from there. I highly doubt most coaches are watching the plan every minute of every day.

The HC sees the results of the S&C staff's efforts every single day. And if he is not getting the results he expects and needs, it is on him to fix the issue by whatever means necessary.

[cordera89]

Again, you don't seem to understand that Graham has had guys to develop that were not him. A true graham talent like Chans Cox or Brady White can't crack the starting line up. You can sit here and talk about how only 4 players have achieved what DJ Foster has done and thats great. But he also has regressed terribly over the 4 years under Graham. Taylor Kelly had a similar issue (granted part of it was injury) where he regressed as his years went on under Graham. I have yet to watch a true Graham recruit and say to myself, damn he has gotten "x" percent better than he was. While I do not know everything about football, I know enough to see that Graham (while a decent coach) has trouble developing talent. The guys he has put into the NFL, aren't exactly setting the world on fire either. Other than Randall and Douglas, must guys have been underwhelming.

And while I love Scooby, he is fighting an up hill battle to the NFL. He also benefited from some other decent guys on the defense from last year and helped his numbers. His year was set up to take a step back this year and I fully expected it. Also conditioning isn't part of a head coaches job bud, thats the strength and conditioning staff.

That's a silly comment.

Look at an org chart for the football program; it ALL falls under the head coach. He's not personally responsible for executing & delivering on the responsibilities of each role in his organization himself, but he is responsible for how the guys on his staff do their jobs.

He owns accountability for everything; the buck stops on the head coach's desk.

But as for involvement of everything, S&C is probably where a coach gives more control to that person than anything else. He says I want the guys to be able to do X and then the S&C coach goes from there. RR lays out the plan and then the S&C coach kind of goes from there. I highly doubt most coaches are watching the plan every minute of every day.

The HC sees the results of the S&C staff's efforts every single day. And if he is not getting the results he expects and needs, it is on him to fix the issue by whatever means necessary.

And how can RR do that when he too loyal to his staff member in order to get the result he expect and needs.

[Puerco]

Scummy, I'd take Taylor Kelly off your list. After all, he was the long time starter whom Graham developed well enough to be benched in his career finalé against his hated rival. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

[uacat540]

You really shouldn't bring up DJ foster, you do realize a majority of his yards came against lower level teams? He's only had 2 100 yard rushing games in his entire career (Notre Dame 2014/Arizona 2013). I also said Graham recruit, not a leftover Erickson recruit. Name a recruit that Graham has directly recruited that ended up developing under his watch. The one and only one i can think of is Damarious Randall. Jalen Strong was a man amongst boys who was ready to leave no mater what team he was on. And by no means am I saying RichRod is developing talent either.

So I went and looked at actual numbers. DJ fosters career at ASU

2012: 493 rushing yards (4.8 YPC) / 533 yards receiving / 6 TD
2013: 501 rushing yards (5.4 YPC) / 653 yards receiving / 10 TD
2014: 1002 rushing yards (5.5 YPC) / 646 yards receiving / 12 TD
2015: 278 rushing yards (5.6 YPC) / 512 yards receiving / 4 TD

So the kid improves every year, except the one where he attempts to fill Jaelen Strongs shoes (a complete position change) with a new QB taking the reigns, and you think he hasn't developed? What am I missing? Oh and I checked, he didn't return to his old position until the UW game.

Another guy you brought up was Jaelen Strong. Strong has incredible hands, but was out of shape, didn't know how to run routes, couldn't block, and couldn't get separation. By the time he was drafted he had improved his route running, was a MUCH improved blocker, and in great shape. Though his ability to get separation could have improved it was the only thing another year at ASU could have arguably helped. Point is, he was another kid who developed.

I could do this with most of the ASU roster. Just like I could probably do this with most of the UA roster. I don't think you quite understand how much of a jump there is from high school to college. These kids aren't starting on a D1 football team without significant development.

Now if you are saying you are not happy with the level of development, that's a different story. But to say TG and RR are failing to develop their respective rosters is just dumb

We will agree to disagree with Strong then, you have probably seen more of him before and after at ASU. What i am getting at is that Graham can lock down all the talent in the State but development comes into play there after and he hasn't shown he can have his talent take the next level jump to really become a dominate NCAA player or a sought after NFL prospect. For every Jalen Strong there is the DJ Foster who stayed home and has regressed year over year. You bring up his stats and 2014 was statistically his best year and 510 rushing yards came against his first 3 opponents (Weber State, New Mexico, CU). And like Puerto brought up, Taylor Kelly regressed horribly last year, partly due to injury. And lets have a look at Berco this year-that guy is out to lunch 50-60% of the time and he was lucky to win as many games as he did. How in the world is there not a better QB than him on the roster at this point? Arizona was stuck with Denker in 2013 and he did alright but that was due to RR wanting and needing to redshirt Anu.

[Scummy Dick Douglas]

Scummy, I'd take Taylor Kelly off your list. After all, he was the long time starter whom Graham developed well enough to be benched in his career finalé against his hated rival. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

You mean his senior season in which he was injured the whole year, never getting back to 100%? Thats like me saying Anu Solomon is not an endorsement of RR's ability to develop a QB because he didn't play in the T-cup last Saturday. Kelly's ability to run the offense at a high level was dependent on his ability to run the read option. He was fantastic at the mesh, and very good with his feet. After he hurt his leg against CU last season, he never was 100% the rest of the year.

Kelly is actually one of the better examples of TG development, and (Norvell in particular). For as much as UA fans like to say Erickson left the ASU roster well stocked, it was full of low ranked recruits with little apparent upside. Kelly was a 2 star from Idaho, whom nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody saw getting any playing time, much less making an impact. The very fact he was able to put up the numbers he did in his 2+ seasons as QB is a evidence of solid development.

[Scummy Dick Douglas]

You really shouldn't bring up DJ foster, you do realize a majority of his yards came against lower level teams? He's only had 2 100 yard rushing games in his entire career (Notre Dame 2014/Arizona 2013). I also said Graham recruit, not a leftover Erickson recruit. Name a recruit that Graham has directly recruited that ended up developing under his watch. The one and only one i can think of is Damarious Randall. Jalen Strong was a man amongst boys who was ready to leave no mater what team he was on. And by no means am I saying RichRod is developing talent either.

So I went and looked at actual numbers. DJ fosters career at ASU

2012: 493 rushing yards (4.8 YPC) / 533 yards receiving / 6 TD
2013: 501 rushing yards (5.4 YPC) / 653 yards receiving / 10 TD
2014: 1002 rushing yards (5.5 YPC) / 646 yards receiving / 12 TD
2015: 278 rushing yards (5.6 YPC) / 512 yards receiving / 4 TD

So the kid improves every year, except the one where he attempts to fill Jaelen Strongs shoes (a complete position change) with a new QB taking the reigns, and you think he hasn't developed? What am I missing? Oh and I checked, he didn't return to his old position until the UW game.

Another guy you brought up was Jaelen Strong. Strong has incredible hands, but was out of shape, didn't know how to run routes, couldn't block, and couldn't get separation. By the time he was drafted he had improved his route running, was a MUCH improved blocker, and in great shape. Though his ability to get separation could have improved it was the only thing another year at ASU could have arguably helped. Point is, he was another kid who developed.

I could do this with most of the ASU roster. Just like I could probably do this with most of the UA roster. I don't think you quite understand how much of a jump there is from high school to college. These kids aren't starting on a D1 football team without significant development.

Now if you are saying you are not happy with the level of development, that's a different story. But to say TG and RR are failing to develop their respective rosters is just dumb

We will agree to disagree with Strong then, you have probably seen more of him before and after at ASU. What i am getting at is that Graham can lock down all the talent in the State but development comes into play there after and he hasn't shown he can have his talent take the next level jump to really become a dominate NCAA player or a sought after NFL prospect. For every Jalen Strong there is the DJ Foster who stayed home and has regressed year over year. You bring up his stats and 2014 was statistically his best year and 510 rushing yards came against his first 3 opponents (Weber State, New Mexico, CU). And like Puerto brought up, Taylor Kelly regressed horribly last year, partly due to injury. And lets have a look at Berco this year-that guy is out to lunch 50-60% of the time and he was lucky to win as many games as he did. How in the world is there not a better QB than him on the roster at this point? Arizona was stuck with Denker in 2013 and he did alright but that was due to RR wanting and needing to redshirt Anu.

Well, we clearly aren't getting anywhere. I literally just showed you factual evidence of improvement and development over the course of DJ's career and you still state he regressed "year after year". Its pretty clear you have made your mind up about RR and TG, regardless of the volume of evidence to the contrary.

[UALoco]

Looks like DJ improved year over year until this year when he wet the bed......and who gives an F? Start a thread about this on the scum devil board, not here.

[Puerco]

Scummy, I'd take Taylor Kelly off your list. After all, he was the long time starter whom Graham developed well enough to be benched in his career finalé against his hated rival. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

You mean his senior season in which he was injured the whole year, never getting back to 100%? Thats like me saying Anu Solomon is not an endorsement of RR's ability to develop a QB because he didn't play in the T-cup last Saturday. Kelly's ability to run the offense at a high level was dependent on his ability to run the read option. He was fantastic at the mesh, and very good with his feet. After he hurt his leg against CU last season, he never was 100% the rest of the year.

Kelly is actually one of the better examples of TG development, and (Norvell in particular). For as much as UA fans like to say Erickson left the ASU roster well stocked, it was full of low ranked recruits with little apparent upside. Kelly was a 2 star from Idaho, whom nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody saw getting any playing time, much less making an impact. The very fact he was able to put up the numbers he did in his 2+ seasons as QB is a evidence of solid development.

I missed that part where Kelly was hurt during the UA game. And you'll never see me say that Anu has developed. To me he looks similar to 2014 Anu.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Looks like DJ improved year over year until this year when he wet the bed......and who gives an F? Start a thread about this on the scum devil board, not here.

He improved a lot...until he regressed massively. Same thing with Kelly.

If those are the 2 best examples of Graham's player development...

[Tempedevil]

Saying DJ rgrssed this season does not make sense due to his position change. To put this in terms you can understand: it's like moving me from point guard to shooting guard and saying I regressed because I have fewer assists this season.

[azcat49]

Saying DJ rgrssed this season does not make sense due to his position change. To put this in terms you can understand: it's like moving me from point guard to shooting guard and saying I regressed because I have fewer assists this season.

Our guys understand football just fine. Let me put it this in terms you should understand, ASSU fans = condescending pricks. You guys have definitely progressed in that area. All the same.

Foster was and is a great player who has become more productive each year he played. His move was the reason he was not as productive but from the outside looking in, I sure question how they used him this year. I should have said underutilized him.

[krissyp]

Saying DJ rgrssed this season does not make sense due to his position change. To put this in terms you can understand: it's like moving me from point guard to shooting guard and saying I regressed because I have fewer assists this season.

Nice try honey.

Cute.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Saying DJ rgrssed this season does not make sense due to his position change. To put this in terms you can understand: it's like moving me from point guard to shooting guard and saying I regressed because I have fewer assists this season.

He produced fewer rushing yards, fewer receiving yards and fewer TD's then every other year he was in college. Hitting career lows in all 3 categories is regressing unless he moved to defense.

I have less of a problem with ASU fans blaming the statistical regression on the position change when they aren't pushing him as an example of how Graham develops players. Maybe the best example should have actually improved year to year instead of falling off as a senior.

[uacat540]

Saying DJ rgrssed this season does not make sense due to his position change. To put this in terms you can understand: it's like moving me from point guard to shooting guard and saying I regressed because I have fewer assists this season.

He produced fewer rushing yards, fewer receiving yards and fewer TD's then every other year he was in college. Hitting career lows in all 3 categories is regressing unless he moved to defense.

I have less of a problem with ASU fans blaming the statistical regression on the position change when they aren't pushing him as an example of how Graham develops players. Maybe the best example should have actually improved year to year instead of falling off as a senior.

They have yet to produce a true Graham recruit that has gotten better in the 4 years he has been there. Reading Devils puke-gest is hilarious, 2017 is their year to really see Grahams top 25 classes come through and put up the W's! I still find it hard that there isnt one QB who is more skilled then Berco on that team...

[ASUHATER!]

2008 was the year after they went 10-3 in Ericksons first year. They went 5-7. 2005 was the year after they went 9-3 in 2004. They went 7-5(only in a bowl because of that 23-20 win over us). 2015 was the year they'd go to the playoffs. National title talk abounded. 6-6.

In 2016 Asu loses a ton of players. Anything more than 7-5 will be a huge accomplishment. Maybe 2017 will be the year?

[catinfl]

2008 was the year after they went 10-3 in Ericksons first year. They went 5-7. 2005 was the year after they went 9-3 in 2004. They went 7-5(only in a bowl because of that 23-20 win over us). 2015 was the year they'd go to the playoffs. National title talk abounded. 6-6.

In 2016 Asu loses a ton of players. Anything more than 7-5 will be a huge accomplishment. Maybe 2017 will be the year?

Loses 3 out of the top 4 receivers in an already shaky wide receiver core. Lose 4 offensive lineman. Get Ballage and Richards back and lose 5 starters on defense. Todd has got his work cut out for him.

[azgreg]

2008 was the year after they went 10-3 in Ericksons first year. They went 5-7. 2005 was the year after they went 9-3 in 2004. They went 7-5(only in a bowl because of that 23-20 win over us). 2015 was the year they'd go to the playoffs. National title talk abounded. 6-6.

In 2016 Asu loses a ton of players. Anything more than 7-5 will be a huge accomplishment. Maybe 2017 will be the year?

Loses 3 out of the top 4 receivers in an already shaky wide receiver core. Lose 4 offensive lineman. Get Ballage and Richards back and lose 5 starters on defense. Todd has got his work cut out for him.

Will still be his best team ever.

[catinfl]

2008 was the year after they went 10-3 in Ericksons first year. They went 5-7. 2005 was the year after they went 9-3 in 2004. They went 7-5(only in a bowl because of that 23-20 win over us). 2015 was the year they'd go to the playoffs. National title talk abounded. 6-6.

In 2016 Asu loses a ton of players. Anything more than 7-5 will be a huge accomplishment. Maybe 2017 will be the year?

Loses 3 out of the top 4 receivers in an already shaky wide receiver core. Lose 4 offensive lineman. Get Ballage and Richards back and lose 5 starters on defense. Todd has got his work cut out for him.

Will still be his best team ever.

I don't know if i can handle the press he will put out on all his new starters.

[Harvey Specter]

I've read each of the last 4 years about all the issues ASU would face in the upcoming season, and how we were in a much better position. Then after things did not turn out as planned in 3 of them - I read about all the inherent advantages ASU had, and how we never should have expected to beat them.

Hopefully next year we avoid decimation by injury, and all those predicting doom for the Devils will be right - but I am not holding my breath.