Houston @ Arizona discussion thread

zonagrad · Post by **zonagrad** » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:07 pm

chiefzona wrote:
dc4azcats wrote:
chiefzona wrote:
dc4azcats wrote:
chiefzona wrote:Different HC and DC now plus 4 new starters on defense. Different year and Arizona is not Navy.
That is so weak! Is that really all you have? Major was with Houston LY and coached them in their bowl game.

You're the one saying Arizona wins 4. So, this is #2 of the 4 wins? What's the other 2? CAL? OSU?
If Dawkins hasn't improved and or IF dawkins is our QB the whole season then I think 4 games is the right number. I heard some things over the last 24 hours that could change my mind on 4 games. Obviously tomorrow is a big game and will decide a lot in regards to the rest of the season. I also don't think Dawkins will be our QB all season if he can't complete better than 54% of his passes. Again, tomorrow will say a lot as to where he is in that regard.

Tate isn't much better right now. The QBs are garbage. A lot of RR's offense relies on the QB play as you know. Even I said 5 games this season, DC. Tomorrow will tell us what's up with tomorrow.

That's some pretty strong language to call them garbage. I think Dawkins is an outstanding athlete and one of the most dynamic ball carriers in the country. He has tremendous speed. I agree his passing ability is substandard. But I think Arizona's poor passing game can be blamed on a variety of factors that include poor QB passing ability: Arizona's offensive line and pass protection is mediocre at best, the receiving corps is probably the weakest in the conference and there has been no sign of creative play calling to involve the running backs or tight ends in the passing game. The fact that Arizona doesn't have the horses to produce a strong passing attack doesn't just fall on Dawkins. Or Tate. When Nick Foles & Willie Tuitama were playing, we'd complain that our QB's were immobile and couldn't make plays with their feet. Now we have QB's that can run like hell but aren't great passers. It would be nice to get a happy medium. Hell, the kid from NAU might be able to shine at Arizona given an opportunity.

MrMeow · Post by **MrMeow** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:33 am

That's some pretty strong language to call them garbage. I think Dawkins is an outstanding athlete and one of the most dynamic ball carriers in the country. He has tremendous speed. I agree his passing ability is substandard. But I think Arizona's poor passing game can be blamed on a variety of factors that include poor QB passing ability: Arizona's offensive line and pass protection is mediocre at best, the receiving corps is probably the weakest in the conference and there has been no sign of creative play calling to involve the running backs or tight ends in the passing game. The fact that Arizona doesn't have the horses to produce a strong passing attack doesn't just fall on Dawkins. Or Tate. When Nick Foles & Willie Tuitama were playing, we'd complain that our QB's were immobile and couldn't make plays with their feet. Now we have QB's that can run like hell but aren't great passers. It would be nice to get a happy medium. Hell, the kid from NAU might be able to shine at Arizona given an opportunity.[/quote]

Passing ability vs. running speed - interesting. Seems to me running speed is god-given. It can't be taught. Either you have it or you don't, and both Tate and Dawkins have it. Passing ability? Different story. If you're a big strong athletic kid, and can basically throw a football, which both Dawkins and Tate can do, then why can't you be taught to throw it accurately, consistently? Unless Dawkins and Tate, and several UA QBs before them, are severely mentally impaired, which they are not, this has to be on coaching. Judging by a long list of QB failures, looks to me like Rod Smith knows a lot about eating, and not much about teaching. With good coaching, looks to me like we have the makings of two excellent dual threat QBs. We just need a QB coach who can live up to his job title, and it ain't Rod Smith.

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:06 am

azpenguin wrote:
dc4azcats wrote:I heard some things over the last 24 hours that could change my mind on 4 games.
Change that four to a higher or lower number?

Wilson's injury worst than expected?

chiefzona · Post by **chiefzona** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:36 am

I think DC might be referencing Tate. This is year 6 and Rod Smith still sleeps along with RR. Disappointing.

MrMeow · Post by **MrMeow** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:52 am

chiefzona wrote:I think DC might be referencing Tate. This is year 6 and Rod Smith still sleeps along with RR. Disappointing.

Well, we at least agree on that. With his track record on developing QBs at Arizona, how can Rod Smith still be around?

I remember Nick Foles was considered nothing special in his various stops. Couldn't get a sniff from ASU, his preference, and Stoops made him walk on. Then he met Frank Scelfo. Scelfo developed both Foles and Matt Scott. Rod Smith? He must have film to rival Putin's.

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:04 am

chiefzona wrote:I think DC might be referencing Tate. This is year 6 and Rod Smith still sleeps along with RR. Disappointing.

K Tate may be leaving the program? As the QB with the most potential that would really suck for the program.

But if he is not being developed, then would certainly not blame him.

azcat49 · Post by **azcat49** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:14 am

Is that what they are saying Merk? That would really suck big time

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:16 am

azcat49 wrote:Is that what they are saying Merk? That would really sick big yime

No idea, just trying to read between the lines from DC and Chief.

azcat49 · Post by **azcat49** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:18 am

Well I read it as Tate would start over Dawkins at some point and DC'S prediction of 4 wins would go up to 5 or 6.

Of course Tate needs to show he can stay healthy

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:24 am

azcat49 wrote:Well I read it as Tate would start over Dawkins at some point and DC'S prediction of 4 wins would go up to 5 or 6.

Of course Tate needs to show he can stay healthy

Ah, that makes much more sense! Look forward to seeing a lot of K Tate tonight!

RazorsEdgeAZ · Post by **RazorsEdgeAZ** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:41 am

Merkin wrote:
chiefzona wrote:I think DC might be referencing Tate. This is year 6 and Rod Smith still sleeps along with RR. Disappointing.
K Tate may be leaving the program? As the QB with the most potential that would really suck for the program.

But if he is not being developed, then would certainly not blame him.

Khalil Tate ended up at UA because he wanted to play QB. Not many of his big-time offers (if any) were for him at QB position due to his mechanics. Can't imagine he would leave. He'll get a shot this year if Dawkins can't complete some passes. Houston game a big test for Dawkins. Cougars front line is good. The'll try to make him throw.

Alieberman · Post by **Alieberman** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:48 am

Got my tix.

Go Cats!

chiefzona · Post by **chiefzona** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:18 am

Merkin wrote:
chiefzona wrote:I think DC might be referencing Tate. This is year 6 and Rod Smith still sleeps along with RR. Disappointing.
K Tate may be leaving the program? As the QB with the most potential that would really suck for the program.

But if he is not being developed, then would certainly not blame him.

Lol. No. Tate is not leaving the program.

wyo-cat · Post by **wyo-cat** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:56 am

No game thread? How we we going to track Greg's drinking?

azgreg · Post by **azgreg** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:44 pm

wyo-cat wrote:No game thread? How we we going to track Greg's drinking?

I'm still at work man.

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:16 pm

cats101 · Post by **cats101** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:25 pm

Merkin wrote:

Sadly this isn't surprising. Last week they couldn't give tickets away to the NAU game at work. Literally everyone had "plans" already.

wyo-cat · Post by **wyo-cat** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:31 pm

Anyone who knows their way around doesn't pay to park!

KillerKlown · Post by **KillerKlown** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:35 pm

wyo-cat wrote:Anyone who knows their way around doesn't pay to park!

azgreg · Post by **azgreg** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:17 pm

TuiTouchdown · Post by **TuiTouchdown** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:54 pm

Was it me or did we actually show up on D? Know no one is looking for positives right now, but D made stops when we needed, got turnovers...

OSUCat · Post by **OSUCat** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:57 pm

I was happy with the defense. I hate the 10 yards back on a 3rd and short. I can't figure out the reason for that but everything else was good.

CopaCat · Post by **CopaCat** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:04 pm

This game kind of reminded me of the BYU game last year. All kinds of effort, but a tough hard fought loss largely due to an inept offense. We saw how the lack of size and depth affected that defense as the season wore on. We should expect similar results largely due to a poor offensively philosophy to speed up tempo and poor recruiting.

RazorsEdgeAZ · Post by **RazorsEdgeAZ** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:11 pm

Like I've been saying for months, RR publically blames the defense for UA woes. Rarely points to Offense. Like he has an ego about it. It was lack of Offense that lost this game and the QB position. Not the 1st time in last two years.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:15 pm

TuiTouchdown wrote:Was it me or did we actually show up on D? Know no one is looking for positives right now, but D made stops when we needed, got turnovers...

The D showed up tonite. We should've won with half way decent QB play.

catgrad97 · Post by **catgrad97** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:19 pm

I've yet to hear a D-I head coach who blames himself for poor recruiting and player development. No matter how true it is, as is the case here.

And yet, what was it, two days ago, STILL, one of us was posting on here to read "Three and Out"? At this point--no politics intended--that's like saying we need to understand Trump better by reading this part in "The Art of the Deal."

We don't need to read anymore about our current head coach. The AD needs to let RR expose himself for the non-recruiter and near-zero program developer he is, then fire him with cause.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:24 pm

RazorsEdgeAZ wrote:Like I've been saying for months, RR publically blames the defense for UA woes. Rarely points to Offense. Like he has an ego about it. It was lack of Offense that lost this game and the QB position. Not the 1st time in last two years.

I would love to know why he thought it would be a good idea to constantly run JJ up the middle? I'm no offensive play calling genius, but I'm smart enough to know a guaranteed first rounder on the other side of the ball is something I want to stay the Hell away from!

Defense showed up ready to play, I say give the ball to Chuck and let's see what happens?

ztonyg · Post by **ztonyg** » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:36 pm

MrMeow wrote:That's some pretty strong language to call them garbage. I think Dawkins is an outstanding athlete and one of the most dynamic ball carriers in the country. He has tremendous speed. I agree his passing ability is substandard. But I think Arizona's poor passing game can be blamed on a variety of factors that include poor QB passing ability: Arizona's offensive line and pass protection is mediocre at best, the receiving corps is probably the weakest in the conference and there has been no sign of creative play calling to involve the running backs or tight ends in the passing game. The fact that Arizona doesn't have the horses to produce a strong passing attack doesn't just fall on Dawkins. Or Tate. When Nick Foles & Willie Tuitama were playing, we'd complain that our QB's were immobile and couldn't make plays with their feet. Now we have QB's that can run like hell but aren't great passers. It would be nice to get a happy medium. Hell, the kid from NAU might be able to shine at Arizona given an opportunity.

Passing ability vs. running speed - interesting. Seems to me running speed is god-given. It can't be taught. Either you have it or you don't, and both Tate and Dawkins have it. Passing ability? Different story. If you're a big strong athletic kid, and can basically throw a football, which both Dawkins and Tate can do, then why can't you be taught to throw it accurately, consistently? Unless Dawkins and Tate, and several UA QBs before them, are severely mentally impaired, which they are not, this has to be on coaching. Judging by a long list of QB failures, looks to me like Rod Smith knows a lot about eating, and not much about teaching. With good coaching, looks to me like we have the makings of two excellent dual threat QBs. We just need a QB coach who can live up to his job title, and it ain't Rod Smith.[/quote]

The entire offense from the line to the QB to the skill positions was much better during the Tuitama and Foles era. Tuitama and Foles (and Matt Scott) were much more talented at the QB position than anyone we have now, the offensive line wasn't always great but it got the job done, we had depth at RB and WR (with players that made it to the NFL). And, for a few seasons we had the player who is currently the best TE in the NFL on our roster. We actually had a pretty good offense. A lot of the problems we had during that era resulted from the defensive side of the ball as well as special teams miscues.

Those teams produced some really fun to watch games (even including the many heartbreaking losses).

Now with our supposedly "offensive mastermind" head coach, our offense is pure crap and the defense can't handle an entire season of the offense stinking. Also, this team (and the RR offense in general) is not as much fun to watch as the Tuitama/Foles Stoops era teams were.

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:09 am

Game passed by RR years ago now.

Harvey Specter · Post by **Harvey Specter** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:27 am

dc4azcats wrote:
chiefzona wrote:
dc4azcats wrote:
chiefzona wrote:
dc4azcats wrote:
Laugh out loud!! I wonder what Chief would be saying if this was Arizona's first game of the year, on the road with a new staff, playing against a team that already has a game under it's belt? There's a reason why teams have a big improvement from week one to week two. Especially true when you have a young D that is finding it's way. Being able to watch the film and see what reads they missed etc is so invaluable.

That said, I'm not sure we can win 4 games with Dawkins as our QB.
A lot of mistakes on the OL and defense. I agree with your 4 wins and Dawkins comment. But he is the best QB on the roster. That shows the futility of RR. It's great to have you back. I was getting worried. If you still have my number, text me....let's get a beer and catch up. You've always been my favorite.
How can you say he's the best QB? The best throw by a QB all night was the throw Tate made to TJ that should've been a TD. Dawkins doesn't sit in the pocket long enough for a WR to run a deep route. Not to mention that Dawkins can't read a D to save his life so he's never going to go through his progressions and pickup the mismatch. Dawkins would look at the sidelines for the play then immediately clap his hands for the snap. He didn't even pretend to read the D. Audibles? Move his RB from one side to the other? The next time Dawkins does either will be the first time. Dawkins doesn't even read the DE which is mind boggling to me. Give me Rhett over Dawkins as Rhett can at least read the D and and he reads the DE on the read option.

I think Tate is a lot like Foles in that he doesn't practice well but, when the lights come on he's ready to go. Dawkins is going on 4 years into the RR system and still can't do the simplest of reads which is the DE. Mind boggling to me. Yet RR keeps rolling him out there. The offense has no rhythm whatsoever and against good competition they will take away the run and frustrate Dawkins. How long will RR wait to make a move will be interesting to watch.

Anybody else notice that Dawkins had a completion rate of 53.8% on Saturday night? I mention that because it's the same completion percentage that he had for all of LY. Coincidence? I think not. I think he's a barely above 50% passer and that's not going to win us many games at this level.

Houston with one very good DE is not that big of a deal in my mind as you can easily run away from him and or line the TE up on his side and constantly chip him and or double him. I go back to all the great DL that Utah had and even UW the last couple of years - neither team stopped RR from running the ball successfully.

Dawkins is the best QB right now. I personally would rather have Tate as QB. But all of them wouldn't even get a sniff at Oregon State. It's garbage for year 6 and time for RR to pack his bags. Houston's D has more that just a DE buddy.
I keep hearing about Houston's D and I found it interesting looking at who they played LY? They played at Navy, and would you believe that Navy ran the ball 63 times for 306 yards. Oh, Navy also put up 46 points and won that game. Interesting that a team that couldn't throw the ball and everybody knows that they run the ball (sound familiar?) and yet they put up 306 rush yards, which was by far the most anybody put up on the Houston D LY. Going into the Navy game, Houston was giving up only 42 rushing yards a game. They got beat on roll out read options where the QB made a couple of big throws. They also got beat on just plain old option run plays.

I'd prefer to believe that Houston has a D that should rival the '86 Bears, because the alternative is pretty troubling. You sure had all the reasons why we should feel bullish.. did not work out (although in one post you say they have a new staff... and in the next one you point out that Applewhite was the OC and is keeping the same defensive scheme so it's not really that big of a change.

You were all over the f***ing board. Always the company man.

We scored 16 points and gained 370 total yards agains a team in their first game of the season, and that I doubt has had anything resembling a regular practice regimen for the past 3 weeks. That said, Ed Oliver is an absolute manimal.

If their defense is marginal, then our offense is really, really shitty. I'll go with the former, because our coach is an offensive genius who has had 6 years to get his kind of OKG in the program.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:10 am

RazorsEdgeAZ wrote:Like I've been saying for months, RR publically blames the defense for UA woes. Rarely points to Offense. Like he has an ego about it. It was lack of Offense that lost this game and the QB position. Not the 1st time in last two years.

RR blamed the receivers for Dawkins's issues. I thought that was great.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:33 am

In all the fuckery that occurred last night I just realized that Arizona didn't get Tilford one touch. I mean if we were going to be bold and run up the middle against a 1st rounder then you should probably use your guy whose most built to handle such an assignment, but instead we went with our shift RB who is excellent in space up the middle more often than not. RR = Offensive guru.

tgrumpy2 · Post by **tgrumpy2** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:53 am

I'm not very happy with the outcome last night but neither is anyone else. We didn't lose that game because of our defense and that's a plus for whatever slim hopes anyone holds onto here. If you look at the team stats there were pretty even. We even led slightly in first downs and time of possession. We lost that game because Dawkins couldn't hit wide open receivers and I do mean wide open. I'll give Chiefzona his due and say Tate should be the quarterback. For at least the next couple of weeks I'll still hold onto the idea that this team can be at least a .500 team but not with Dawkins at quarterback.

UAEebs86 · Post by **UAEebs86** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:56 am

ChooChooCat wrote:In all the fuckery that occurred last night I just realized that Arizona didn't get Tilford one touch. I mean if we were going to be bold and run up the middle against a 1st rounder then you should probably use your guy whose most built to handle such an assignment, but instead we went with our shift RB who is excellent in space up the middle more often than not. RR = Offensive guru.

No shit. I said the same thing about Tilford not playing to my son leaving the stadium.

Burn his redshirt against NAU but then don't use him in a game where your #1 running back is out? SMDH

And another thing: Physically, Houston looked like the Power 5 team out there last night. Their lineman and safeties especially all looked bigger and stronger than Arizona.

azpenguin · Post by **azpenguin** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:05 pm

Arizona should have won this game by two TDs. They had plenty of opportunities. But they had too many unforced errors. Houston does get credit for playing some pretty stingy D. But bad passes, drops, fumbles that should not have happened... they could have easily rolled up 30+ points.

That said, we don't know how bad of a loss this is going to be until we see the Utah game. By then we'll have an idea of how good Houston is, and we'll be able to see if A: Arizona took the lessons to heart from this game and B: if the defense can keep this effort up. In the glass half full side of things, that defense busted ass all game long. They gave up no points in the second half, they never quit, and they seemed to make progress as the game went along. Most importantly, they kept getting the offense the ball back. I'm not optimistic that things will turn around this year, but I've been surprised before.

As for the QBs, Alsadek said last night that Tate has a big tendency to freelance and that the linemen often don't know where he is. Also said that Dawkins is more sound at QB. You could see a couple of times last night where it was obvious that Tate had gone off-script in a play. The coaches have said in the past that for every "oh wow" play that Tate makes, he seems to make another that's "oh no." Alsadek's comments would make sense seeing how far RR sticks with Dawkins. Tate has some ungodly talent and can definitely throw the ball better than BD but you can't win games alone.

So to sum up, not optimistic about season prospects, but it's only game 2 and I'm not making any definitive statements.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:37 pm

tgrumpy2 wrote:I'm not very happy with the outcome last night but neither is anyone else. We didn't lose that game because of our defense and that's a plus for whatever slim hopes anyone holds onto here. If you look at the team stats there were pretty even. We even led slightly in first downs and time of possession. We lost that game because Dawkins couldn't hit wide open receivers and I do mean wide open. I'll give Chiefzona his due and say Tate should be the quarterback. For at least the next couple of weeks I'll still hold onto the idea that this team can be at least a .500 team but not with Dawkins at quarterback.

Exactly. I went back and re-watched that throw to Ellison in the end zone just to see how wide open he really was?

The blind kid from SC could've made that throw!

azpenguin · Post by **azpenguin** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:35 pm

Michael Lev was rewatching the game and making some comments on twitter. Said that the play before he missed Ellison on the end zone that Dawkins took a seriously hard shot from a UH defender.

azcat49 · Post by **azcat49** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:28 pm

In the 3rd I sure thought Poindexter made that catch. Still should of won but that seemed like 4 more points

tgrumpy2 · Post by **tgrumpy2** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:33 pm

azcat49 wrote:In the 3rd I sure thought Poindexter made that catch. Still should of won but that seemed life 4 more points

Looked to me as if he made the catch as well and the ball was stripped after he was down.

ramcat · Post by **ramcat** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:39 am

Dawkins had some bad moments for sure but that pass was perfect and should have been caught. Oh well, was thinking/hoping we could be 3-1 going into bye. Need to take care of UTEP and then play much better to beat Utes!

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:02 am

I originally had thought the ref called Poindexter out of the endzone, since that is what it looked like to me when it happened.

However, replays showed that he definitely dragged his foot in the end zone while having possession.

azpenguin · Post by **azpenguin** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:32 am

Merkin wrote:I originally had thought the ref called Poindexter out of the endzone, since that is what it looked like to me when it happened.

However, replays showed that he definitely dragged his foot in the end zone while having possession.

That's exactly what the ref called. He made the OOB indication after signaling incomplete. I saw him hit inbounds from my seat (had a good angle) and the replay was clear as day on that.

azgreg · Post by **azgreg** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:51 pm

Sid · Post by **Sid** » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:39 am

azgreg wrote:

Makes perfectly good sense to trot him back out there to win the game for us.......

I hear Rhett is pretty damn accurate, kid could've won the game for us and Rich would've been the hero.

Oh well.....

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