3-3-5 vs. 4-3 results tonight

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:59 pm

2 CAR YDS AVG TD LG
Mccaffrey 13 113 8.7 1 49

YDS C/ATT TD INT AVG
.Hogan 169 13/15 1 0 11.3

OSUCat · Post by **OSUCat** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:00 pm

I know one thing from the past four years. The DB's have not improved from year to year. That would be a coaching problem right?

BibbysTowelDude · Post by **BibbysTowelDude** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:43 pm

LMFAO...

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:45 pm

Not one single series without Stanford scoring....

azgreg · Post by **azgreg** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:53 pm

It doesn't matter. We don't have the horses for any kind of defense.

BibbysTowelDude · Post by **BibbysTowelDude** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:55 pm

Whole lot of OKP's....

CalStateTempe · Post by **CalStateTempe** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:08 pm

BibbysTowelDude wrote:Whole lot of OKP's....

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:10 pm

Do we really think a 4-3 or a 3-4 would do better? It's an obvious personnel/coaching issue at this point. The scheme means dick if you don't have coaching and talent.

dmjcat · Post by **dmjcat** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:44 pm

ChooChooCat wrote:Do we really think a 4-3 or a 3-4 would do better? It's an obvious personnel/coaching issue at this point. The scheme means dick if you don't have coaching and talent.

The personnel/recruiting issue is also a result of the coaching. Frankly, RRod needs to overhaul his defensive staff in the offseason. I think that Casteel, the DL coach, and the DB coach all need to find alternative employment. When replacing them the #1 consideration should be to find coaches that can recruit. I would prefer:

1) One Polynesian coach
2) One coach with extensive ties to the Western Junior Colleges
3) One coach with extensive ties with SoCal high schools

Will this happen? Almost certainly not but it needs to.

BearDown89 · Post by **BearDown89** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:56 pm

dmjcat wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:Do we really think a 4-3 or a 3-4 would do better? It's an obvious personnel/coaching issue at this point. The scheme means dick if you don't have coaching and talent.
The personnel/recruiting issue is also a result of the coaching. Frankly, RRod needs to overhaul his defensive staff in the offseason. I think that Casteel, the DL coach, and the DB coach all need to find alternative employment. When replacing them the #1 consideration should be to find coaches that can recruit. I would prefer:

1) One Polynesian coach
2) One coach with extensive ties to the Western Junior Colleges
3) One coach with extensive ties with SoCal high schools

Will this happen? Almost certainly not but it needs to.

Don't forget special teams while they're at it. There's nothing happening there either.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:26 pm

Merkin wrote:Not one single series without Stanford scoring....

Thankfully, they take their time. Plus, our 19-play drive for a field goal chewed clock. Maybe try a 2-3 zone, or The Claw since they're putting up basketball scores on us.

cordera89 · Post by **cordera89** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:33 pm

dmjcat wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:Do we really think a 4-3 or a 3-4 would do better? It's an obvious personnel/coaching issue at this point. The scheme means dick if you don't have coaching and talent.
The personnel/recruiting issue is also a result of the coaching. Frankly, RRod needs to overhaul his defensive staff in the offseason. I think that Casteel, the DL coach, and the DB coach all need to find alternative employment. When replacing them the #1 consideration should be to find coaches that can recruit. I would prefer:

1) One Polynesian coach
2) One coach with extensive ties to the Western Junior Colleges
3) One coach with extensive ties with SoCal high schools

Will this happen? Almost certainly not but it needs to.

So your suggestion that RR need to evaluate 3-3-5 scheme and entire Defensive Staff? News Flash RR is not going to cut tie with them regardless unless someone from the athletic department say something about it. Your basically saying that RR need to abandon the loyalty of his staff member in order to have a respectable defense. I know tonight game was bad enough that are defense gave up 50 plus point for second week in a row, Now something have give either Casteel change his approach with 3-3-5 or add some 4-3 or 3-4 element into his system. It not going to work unless RR feel pressure of why his defense hasnt made that leap with 3-3-5. Having a new staff for the defense might take a toil whether or not the player we have can run it. I just don't see happening unless someone from higher up make that call to RR to said something need to give if is find something to make it work or make some tough calls.

CalStateTempe · Post by **CalStateTempe** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:39 pm

RR loyalty to Casteel is why you don't do business with family or friends.

cordera89 · Post by **cordera89** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:55 pm

CalStateTempe wrote:RR loyalty to Casteel is why you don't do business with family or friends.

Like I said to DMJcats RR is not going to cut tie with his defensive staff regardless unless someone their tell RR something have to give either it find a way to make 3-3-5 work or make the tough decision.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:32 am

In Casteel's defense, the defense isn't good. So you can't blame him. If it were good, all you guys would love him amd his scheme. So, of course, RR will stick with him. Why shouldn't he?

I need another beer.

dmjcat · Post by **dmjcat** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:14 am

cordera89 wrote:
dmjcat wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:Do we really think a 4-3 or a 3-4 would do better? It's an obvious personnel/coaching issue at this point. The scheme means dick if you don't have coaching and talent.
The personnel/recruiting issue is also a result of the coaching. Frankly, RRod needs to overhaul his defensive staff in the offseason. I think that Casteel, the DL coach, and the DB coach all need to find alternative employment. When replacing them the #1 consideration should be to find coaches that can recruit. I would prefer:

1) One Polynesian coach
2) One coach with extensive ties to the Western Junior Colleges
3) One coach with extensive ties with SoCal high schools

Will this happen? Almost certainly not but it needs to.
So your suggestion that RR need to evaluate 3-3-5 scheme and entire Defensive Staff? News Flash RR is not going to cut tie with them regardless unless someone from the athletic department say something about it. Your basically saying that RR need to abandon the loyalty of his staff member in order to have a respectable defense. I know tonight game was bad enough that are defense gave up 50 plus point for second week in a row, Now something have give either Casteel change his approach with 3-3-5 or add some 4-3 or 3-4 element into his system. It not going to work unless RR feel pressure of why his defense hasnt made that leap with 3-3-5. Having a new staff for the defense might take a toil whether or not the player we have can run it. I just don't see happening unless someone from higher up make that call to RR to said something need to give if is find something to make it work or make some tough calls.

As Michael Corleone famously said "Its not personal, its strictly business"

Newportcat · Post by **Newportcat** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:30 am

gumby wrote:In Casteel's defense, the defense isn't good. So you can't blame him. If it were good, all you guys would love him amd his scheme. So, of course, RR will stick with him. Why shouldn't he?

I need another beer.

Great logic

RazorsEdgeAZ · Post by **RazorsEdgeAZ** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:57 am

You need to start with better recruiting. Can get better recruits for 3-3-5, BUT there is a ceiling on it. Look at it historically... DL will ALWAYS be lacking in this scheme. It's not intended to get stats. Minimal stats but be aggressive, plug holes, let the ones behind you finish the play or someone else hurry or sack QB from a blitz.

Historically it's always hard to get MANY top defensive recruits to go to 3-3-5 and to RR offensive scheme priority. Which is why it will be hard for RR to rid the 3-3-5. It fits his Offensive minded philosophy.

The 3-3-5 being bitched about at AZ ain't new. Falls right into the same pattern everywhere RR has been FBS. Fans everyplace always hated it for the bend, don't break. Lack of pressure. Not new to RR hearing the complaints.

This defense 3-3-5 was slightly better in 2013 using more of Stoops leftover recruits than today. Or last year. Stoops leftover recruits. This defense statistically started decling last year with more of RR recruits filling in and with having bye weeks and less injuries. Lack of depth, more RR recruits and injuries this year exposing it more.

Hard to argue anyone or many know the 3-3-5 better than Casteel and defensive coaches. Unless RR abandons the 3-3-5 HARD to imagine he would get rid of Casteel. Kirlav maybe because of his age and a PR move to the masses that RR taking defense issue serious, maybe. But the DL in this scheme will still be a 3-3-5 DL line. YOU NEED BETTER RECRUITS AT every position.

Take AZs same players and plug them into a different base and not convinced results would be much better. Maybe worse or different because of base scheme. But still...

If RR abandons the 3-3-5, then could see Casteel go.

But I really beleive RR thinks switching defense schemes would impact his Offensive philosophy and ability to recruit more Offensive players that he could convert to Def. And his ability to plug in walk-on non schollys into role positions, not high playmaking positions.

wyo-cat · Post by **wyo-cat** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:24 am

The 3-3-5 worked against UCLA last night.

The Scum didn't shoot themselves in the foot or get their starting qb knocked out of the game.

Scummy Dick Douglas · Post by **Scummy Dick Douglas** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:41 am

wyo-cat wrote:The 3-3-5 worked against UCLA last night.

The Scum didn't shoot themselves in the foot or get their starting qb knocked out of the game.

Except ASU wasn't in the 3-3-5 last night.

pokinmik · Post by **pokinmik** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:48 am

As mentioned before, not having any of our linebackers is killer. Plus, if a team's defense isn't that great to begin with, especially missing their heart and soul in Scooby, they aren't going to perform as well knowing that if they give up a few scores the game is over since we don't have Anu. I know this from watching the Cardinals post-Warner and pre-Palmer/injured Palmer. There's a lot of pressure on the D in that scenario. Even the cardinals D l, which is very good, bent to this phenomenon in year's past and late last year when Lindley was qb'ing.

cordera89 · Post by **cordera89** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:43 am

dmjcat wrote:
cordera89 wrote:
dmjcat wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:Do we really think a 4-3 or a 3-4 would do better? It's an obvious personnel/coaching issue at this point. The scheme means dick if you don't have coaching and talent.
The personnel/recruiting issue is also a result of the coaching. Frankly, RRod needs to overhaul his defensive staff in the offseason. I think that Casteel, the DL coach, and the DB coach all need to find alternative employment. When replacing them the #1 consideration should be to find coaches that can recruit. I would prefer:

1) One Polynesian coach
2) One coach with extensive ties to the Western Junior Colleges
3) One coach with extensive ties with SoCal high schools

Will this happen? Almost certainly not but it needs to.
So your suggestion that RR need to evaluate 3-3-5 scheme and entire Defensive Staff? News Flash RR is not going to cut tie with them regardless unless someone from the athletic department say something about it. Your basically saying that RR need to abandon the loyalty of his staff member in order to have a respectable defense. I know tonight game was bad enough that are defense gave up 50 plus point for second week in a row, Now something have give either Casteel change his approach with 3-3-5 or add some 4-3 or 3-4 element into his system. It not going to work unless RR feel pressure of why his defense hasnt made that leap with 3-3-5. Having a new staff for the defense might take a toil whether or not the player we have can run it. I just don't see happening unless someone from higher up make that call to RR to said something need to give if is find something to make it work or make some tough calls.
As Michael Corleone famously said "Its not personal, its strictly business"

Still RR wouldn't consider of cutting tie's with his defense staff. If it not personal or strictly just business something has to give at this point.

cordera89 · Post by **cordera89** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:45 am

RazorsEdgeAZ wrote:You need to start with better recruiting. Can get better recruits for 3-3-5, BUT there is a ceiling on it. Look at it historically... DL will ALWAYS be lacking in this scheme. It's not intended to get stats. Minimal stats but be aggressive, plug holes, let the ones behind you finish the play or someone else hurry or sack QB from a blitz.

Historically it's always hard to get MANY top defensive recruits to go to 3-3-5 and to RR offensive scheme priority. Which is why it will be hard for RR to rid the 3-3-5. It fits his Offensive minded philosophy.

The 3-3-5 being bitched about at AZ ain't new. Falls right into the same pattern everywhere RR has been FBS. Fans everyplace always hated it for the bend, don't break. Lack of pressure. Not new to RR hearing the complaints.

This defense 3-3-5 was slightly better in 2013 using more of Stoops leftover recruits than today. Or last year. Stoops leftover recruits. This defense statistically started decling last year with more of RR recruits filling in and with having bye weeks and less injuries. Lack of depth, more RR recruits and injuries this year exposing it more.

Hard to argue anyone or many know the 3-3-5 better than Casteel and defensive coaches. Unless RR abandons the 3-3-5 HARD to imagine he would get rid of Casteel. Kirlav maybe because of his age and a PR move to the masses that RR taking defense issue serious, maybe. But the DL in this scheme will still be a 3-3-5 DL line. YOU NEED BETTER RECRUITS AT every position.

Take AZs same players and plug them into a different base and not convinced results would be much better. Maybe worse or different because of base scheme. But still...

If RR abandons the 3-3-5, then could see Casteel go.

But I really beleive RR thinks switching defense schemes would impact his Offensive philosophy and ability to recruit more Offensive players that he could convert to Def. And his ability to plug in walk-on non schollys into role positions, not high playmaking positions.

The talk has already been mention on other Arizona news site that a lot people are bringing up his time at Michigan how pathetic his defensive background is. I will simply just ignore it.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:14 am

Newportcat wrote:
gumby wrote:In Casteel's defense, the defense isn't good. So you can't blame him. If it were good, all you guys would love him amd his scheme. So, of course, RR will stick with him. Why shouldn't he?

I need another beer.
Great logic

So now you're blaming me for my posts. Where's the loyalty anymore?

TheGreatCatsby · Post by **TheGreatCatsby** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:05 pm

We coulda played a 6-6-10 last night and still woulda lost by 20.

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:06 pm

Grades are out:

http://tucson.com/sports/blogs/uafootba ... ?id=201408" target="_blank

Front six — and back five: F. Normally, we split this up. No need to this week — it was a bad game all around for the Wildcats, hence the first failing grade of the season. Tackling has become an alarming weakness for this team, and much of that can be attributed to Arizona’s decimated linebacker position. The Wildcats started R.J. Morgan, Sir Thomas Jackson and Jake Matthews at linebacker due to a variety of injuries, most notably to Derrick Turituri and Scooby Wright. Stanford finished with 55 points and 570 total yards, Christian McCaffrey ran for 156 yards and one touchdown and Kevin Hogan completed 17 of 19 passes for 217 yards, two touchdowns and zero picks. Barry Sanders Jr. even got into the mix, rushing 65 yards for a second-half touchdown.

RazorsEdgeAZ · Post by **RazorsEdgeAZ** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:58 pm

As expected Rich Rod is the one loyal to the 3-3-5. Casteel just happens to coordinate it.

Transcript from today's press conference. And his tone was edgy saying it. Pretty defensive...

On people doubting the 3-3-5:
“You know I have seen a lot of criticism of it, it’s almost natural. When people complain and are sitting in the stands and some of them have never played before, never coached before, at least they care. At least they have some passion for it. But the truth is if they really studied it, they would realize the 3-3-5 is not that much different from a 3-4. It’s closer to a four man front than anything I should do. Again, we want to be more multiple and we have tried to be, but when the guys can’t do it because of injuries that is tough. No one evaluates what we are doing more than I do and what the staff does. Those out there in the stands saying the 3-3-5 is no good. At least they’re talking about it, but do they know what goes in and out of it, the history behind it? I do not think so.”

He said lots more about the scheme and natural criticisms of 3-3-5.

"Don't listen to it" (criticisms). ..."You can say what you want to". Just didn't make it on transcript. So here's the video of it:
http://www.arizonawildcats.com/mediaPor ... m_id=30700

TuiTouchdown · Post by **TuiTouchdown** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:03 pm

RazorsEdgeAZ wrote:As expected Rich Rod is the one loyal to the 3-3-5. Casteel just happens to coordinate it.

Transcript from today's press conference. And his tone was edgy saying it. Pretty defensive...

On people doubting the 3-3-5:
“You know I have seen a lot of criticism of it, it’s almost natural. When people complain and are sitting in the stands and some of them have never played before, never coached before, at least they care. At least they have some passion for it. But the truth is if they really studied it, they would realize the 3-3-5 is not that much different from a 3-4. It’s closer to a four man front than anything I should do. Again, we want to be more multiple and we have tried to be, but when the guys can’t do it because of injuries that is tough. No one evaluates what we are doing more than I do and what the staff does. Those out there in the stands saying the 3-3-5 is no good. At least they’re talking about it, but do they know what goes in and out of it, the history behind it? I do not think so.”

I agree with him there. Rich Rod makes his living doing what he's doing. He's not loyal to it for no reason, he must see an advantage, whether it's because the offenses we face (or more realistically the guys we recruit).

azcat49 · Post by **azcat49** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:40 pm

Man I can't stand the 3-3-5 and didn't like it when it came here but I can't disagree with what RR said. I know jack shit about it's intracacies.

I just know it seems way to passive for me and that we can't stop the run ever. He gets a pass this year with all the injuries I guess

azgreg · Post by **azgreg** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:51 pm

azcat49 wrote:Man I can't stand the 3-3-5 and didn'tblikevit when it came here but I can't disagree with what RR said. I know jack shit about it's intracacies.

I just know it seems way to passive for me and that we can't stop the run ever. He gets a pass this year with all the injuries I guess

This is basically the way I'm thinking as well.

azgreg · Post by **azgreg** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:57 pm

azgreg · Post by **azgreg** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:57 pm

azgreg · Post by **azgreg** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:58 pm

Scummy Dick Douglas · Post by **Scummy Dick Douglas** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:53 pm

I guess it depends how important you think line play is. As many here have noted, its difficult to attract quality linemen to play in the 3-3-5.

RazorsEdgeAZ · Post by **RazorsEdgeAZ** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:23 pm

Don't know why... but, I put together a list of defensive recruits since 2013 and current starters and applied a status. Know RR said he's firm on 3-3-5. So I went to who's being recruited.

Lots of discussion about injuries. If you look back at last four seasons there has always been many injuries. At one position, no. But there are. Some discussion maybe around AZ recruits tweeners and RR himself says they are still undersized. Maybe Physics comes into play regarding injuries. At least partially. Smaller, fast meets Bigger fast and slower in the Pac12. So maybe it's not scheme, but who AZ targets. They want athletes. Blocking schemes tend to go "smaller" OL. DL, plugging holes attacking gap tend to go smaller.

Maybe something to discuss is evaluation. RR said evaluate everything. Maybe that needs to get better. Lots better. It's OK to discuss. Good fans do, good fans question. But something besides injuries and scheme is not working out on defense.

Remember to keep in context. AZ 110th in total defense so far this year. 106th in scoring Defense. Last year with a spectacular Scoobny year and less injuries, AZ was still poor defensively. 103rd and 78th.

Every Scholly player recruited was recruited and evaluated to play, start and contribute. This is about depth. I hear injuries, they are certainly a factor. But there are lots of recruits still on roster that were evaluated and offered to play and play at a high level. Again, defense last 2 years not stellar.

If I looked at the status below and AZ was ranked mid-FBS defensively or near that or showed signs of progression from 2 years ago, Not sure I would be thinking something besides scheme not right. But they're not.

If so many injuries to one position so consequential for an entire defense, or as RR said losing 2 MLBs is like losing 4 players and knowing very possible Scooby would declare for NFL after this season, then why did they only sign 1 LB 2015 class? Jamadre Cobb switch to FB, hasn't been moved back? Should be an opportunity now at LB? Or it's not Cobbs best position...

Since 2013 (Personally, I don't like to apply 2012 class to RR)
-33 defensive scholly players announced in 2013, 2014, 2015 classes
-24 (73%) still on roster
-9 not on roster

Of the current listed Starters (OSU);
-2 Stoops
-2 converted from Offense
-2 Walk-Ons
-3 from 2012
-6 from 2013 or later defense recruits class
-Over half are from Stoops, Walk-on (injuries), from offense, or 2012
-Remember 24 from 2013 on still on roster (5 playing)
-Defense ranked 110th

+ = still on roster

DL Jack Banda + non-starter, limited play
DL Calvin Allen + non-starter, limited play
DL Luca Bruno + has started
DL David Maka - arrived for summer school - left school
LB RJ Morgan + on two deep
LB DeAndre Miller + has started
LB Ryan Dunn - transferred to SDSU, starter SDSU
LB Scooby +
LB Derrick Turituri + starter
CB Derek Babiash - transferred to SDSU, not on SDSU two deep
CB Devin Holiday + limited play
S David Price - Kicked off team

2014
CB Devon Brewer Early 2015 + not playing
DB Rodney Carr - left team prior to 2015 season
LB Jamardre Cobb + at FB now
DL Jerod Cody - medical retirement
CB Patrick Glover - left team LY
DL Marcus Griffin + not on two deep, limited play
CB Kwesi Mashack + not on two deep, limited play
LB Antonio Smothers + on two deep
LB Marquis Ware + not on two deep, limited play
DB Jace Whittaker + early 2015 enroll, not on two deep, limited play
DL Jeff Worthy + on two deep

2015
DL Finton Connolly + Injury missed Sr year HS
DB Dane Cruikshank + not playing
DL Anthony Fotu + on two deep
LB Kendal Franklin + not playing
DL Timmy Hamilton - left during camp, transferred to KU, not playing
S Paul Magloire + on two deep
S Anthony Mariscal + not playing
CB Sammy Morrison + has started, on two deep
CB Antonio Parks - not yet enrolled
DL Sharif Williams + not playing

Starters
Reggie Gilbert (Stoops)
Sani Fuimaono (Stoops)
Luca Bruno (2013)
Derrick Turituri (2013) OR RJ Morgan (2013)
Tre Tyler (injuries, Walk-on)
DeAndre’ Miller (2013) OR Jake Matthews (walk-on)
Will Parks (2012)
Tellas Jones (Signed summer 2013) OR Anthony Lopez (2012 committed before RR)
Cam Denson (2014 offense convert) or Sammy Morrison (2015)
DaVonte’ Neal (transfer, offense convert)
Jamar Allah (2012)

azpenguin · Post by **azpenguin** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:15 pm

Gimino made a good point. The 2011 and 2012 classes should have been the foundation of this year's defense. There is very little left from them. Arizona's luck at linebacker goes in large part to Cobb, Ware and Smothers not being ready for prime time; Cobb and Ware both being hurt early and often last year really didn't help. Those are three four stars and they should have been at least decent backups by now. I still think Ware can be a contributor. I wouldn't be surprised if Cobb goes back to LB but RR really likes him at FB. You take a set of bad luck like that and then pile on the injuries all at that position (4 guys out, Miller not 100% at all) and you're screwed.

My speculation on why they only took one LB in the 2015 class is that they thought they were going to be set for a while at the position. It's actually the biggest group on the roster with 20 guys listed at the position. Recruiting doesn't turn on a dime. They also have Kenny coming off his transfer year next year. I don't know how many guys they offered at LB for that class. It'll be interesting to see who they get in the 2016 class at LB. If you want the glass half full outlook, a lot of guys are getting game experience right now, and a lot of guys are coming back so there'll be experience at the position. As I said in one of my other posts, though, I'm more worried about the safety spots.

catinfl · Post by **catinfl** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:28 pm

Next year we will have
Most Likely: Scooby

Back: Turituri, Ippolitto, Matthews, Morgan, Miller, Ware (Maybe he can play if he decides it's important to him? Talent is Obviously there)

Adding: Kenny (Transfer), Colacion, Franklin (Red-Shirt),

Possibly: Cobb (Change Back), Clifton Garrett ( Former 5* at JUCO AZ Western)

Depth is there. We've just been hit with substantial injuries at the position and as of right now our 3 best LB's from last year are injured. (Scoob, Ippo, and Turituri.) In the 3-3-5 it's vital to have LB's that can make plays and playing with 2nd and 3rd String LB's is a big reason why we can't stop the run worth a shit. Pass rush has been bad also with Gilbert the only one pressuring. Bruno has shown flashes and he's only a RS SO which is nice to think about. Secondary simply can't cover these people with the amount of time we're giving them to throw. Our 2 best pass rushers (Turituri and Scoob) are both out. So while the defense is bad I don't blame it on the 3-3-5. Lots of bad luck and hopefully we can get more healthy here soon.

RazorsEdgeAZ · Post by **RazorsEdgeAZ** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:41 pm

catinfl wrote:Depth is there.

I'm not as convinced. If it's there, do you mean next year will have top 50 ranked Defense barring injuries? Or? I know AZ has bodies there (Apparently 20 guys listed at the position which goes to the recruit evaluation point I'm throwing out there. All were evaluated, injured or not) but for a decent defense? How do we know? We haven't seen really any signs that point that way.

Yes Kenny transfer. But like Cobb, he was moved to FB. Then moved back and couldn't make the depth chart at LB (Iowa has good defense this year statistically).

catinfl · Post by **catinfl** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:59 pm

RazorsEdgeAZ wrote:
catinfl wrote:Depth is there.
I'm not as convinced. If it's there, do you mean next year will have top 50 ranked Defense barring injuries? Or? I know AZ has bodies there (Apparently 20 guys listed at the position which goes to the recruit evaluation point I'm throwing out there. All were evaluated, injured or not) but for a decent defense? How do we know? We haven't seen really any signs that point that way.

Yes Kenny transfer. But like Cobb, he was moved to FB. Then moved back and couldn't make the depth chart at LB (Iowa has good defense this year statistically).

Kenny was moved to FB because Iowa suffered a lot of injuries there and was moved back and was behind the kids who were playing LB all year which is kinda granted. Coaches loved him out of HS and decided to bring him in? Will he contribute? I'm not sure. He runs a 4.6 and is pretty big and with a year in the system hopefully he can make an impact.

Ok, well I'll list the kids I feel confident in. Scooby, Ippo, Turituri, Miller, and Matthews. Miller and Matthews aren't worldbeaters, but Scooby being on the field makes everyone else better. Matthews and Miller are being forced to play big minutes and while this sucks to watch us get destroyed they're getting a lot of time which may help in the future. RR was quoted that losing Turituri and Scooby "is like losing 4 starters". So with those five LB's we just need a couple more kids to step up and provide depth. So, yes I do think we have depth at that position. Any team that loses their 3 best LB's is obviously gonna struggle there.

chiefzona · Post by **chiefzona** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:12 pm

The problem is not at LB it's at DL. D-line has to be effective in the 3-3-5 so that that LBs and DBs can do their jobs. If the DL isn't doing its job, it adds further stress to the other positions like catching them out of position. Against Stanford, I saw the worst line play that I can remember. Every single one was getting beat. Sani was being Sani and getting manhandled yet he stayed out there for most of the game. There was very little bright spots there. To the guys saying it isn't scheme I ask you this. How many teams in the NFL run the 3-3-5 as a base defense? How many college teams use the 3-3-5 as a base defense? Base is the key word here, other than that....it's a glorified nickel. It's year 4 and this is the best DL that these coaches can come up with. No swim or use of hands. No upper body strength. No quick feet.....no nothing. There's no way that Coach K should still be employed. Ridiculous and embarrassing.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:27 pm

I made the point about DL long ago. Your job is grunt work, so that others can make the play. Why would an elite guy want to do that? It's like trying to recruit QBs to hand off.

Which was the flip side of Tomey.

Are we only allowed a certain number of good athletes, and you have to decide whether to emphasize offense or defense?

Tomey (and Smith) stressed D. RR stresses O. Fans remain stressed out.

chiefzona · Post by **chiefzona** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:39 pm

Not only is the recruiting and evaluations bad, the development is poor as well as the coaching. This isn't the big east anymore.

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:41 pm

gumby wrote: Tomey (and Smith) stressed D. RR stresses O. Fans remain stressed out.

Mackovic stressed O due to the UA fans whining about Tomey's staid offense (including me). Then they brought in Stoops to stress defense again. Remember the Stoops/Canales 2 yard bubble screen pass on 3rd and long? The receiver needs to make a play!

So then the UA AD brought in another offensive guy...

chiefzona · Post by **chiefzona** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:55 pm

And next will be a defensive guy again.

catinfl · Post by **catinfl** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:58 pm

chiefzona wrote:Not only is the recruiting and evaluations bad, the development is poor as well as the coaching. This isn't the big east anymore.

So, everything is bad in your opinion? Maybe we should hire you as the new DC

azgreg · Post by **azgreg** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:58 pm

chiefzona wrote:And next will be a defensive guy again.

I sense a pattern here......................

RazorsEdgeAZ · Post by **RazorsEdgeAZ** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:03 pm

Something else to keep an eye on as possible pattern:

Other than when in the BE, 6.25 years in a Power Five conference... A Rich Rod defense has not finished higher than 62nd in total defense or 39th in scoring defense.

The tendency seems to be the RR defense statistically better with predecessor recruits and when converting schemes (not 2012). But at Michigan and here, as time went on, the defense worse statistically.

There's really no where to go but better statistically from here. But is there a ceiling?

Year Total Defense Scoring Defense Rank

2008 67th 84th
2009 82nd 77th
2010 110th 108th

2012 118th 102nd
2013 62nd 39th
2014 103rd 78th
2015* 110th 106th

azpenguin · Post by **azpenguin** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:23 pm

He didn't have Casteel at UM, and Hoke did quite well with RR's players (and while UM cheaped out on getting RR Casteel, they opened the checkbook for Hoke's DC.) This time around, we're seeing a defense depleted by injury in year four so we don't really know how good this defense really should be. What would be more telling would be years 5 and 6, something that he didn't have the luxury of at UM and something he hasn't gotten to yet at AZ. At that point you have rosters that are completely belonging to the incumbent coach (the 2011 and 2012 classes would be RS Sr, Sr, and Jr right now, the guys who should be the foundation of your team.)

I'm not disputing your trends, I just don't think they're that telling. Now if the defense is still stepping back next year, then there might be something to the trends.

RazorsEdgeAZ · Post by **RazorsEdgeAZ** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:34 pm

I'm not sure how long it takes for to evaluate a coach's or defense recruiting... But I would imagine years 3 and 4 would show some signs of improvement. Year before RR, 2011 AZ finished 110th and 107th. So there was room to get better. I've stated preseason, last years (not this years) defense was striking to me how it got worse stat wise.

Casteel here now.

Hoke's 1st year at UM post RR he took many of RR's defensive players that finished 110th 108th in 2010
and finished 17th and 6th in 2011. But the scheme changed. So did the defensive coaches.

cordera89 · Post by **cordera89** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:36 pm

RazorsEdgeAZ wrote:I'm not sure how long it takes for to evaluate a coach's or defense recruiting... But I would imagine years 3 and 4 would show some signs of improvement. Year before RR, 2011 AZ finished 110th and 107th. So there was room to get better. I've stated preseason, last years (not this years) defense was striking to me how it got worse stat wise.

Casteel here now.

Hoke's 1st year at UM post RR he took many of RR's defensive players that finished 110th 108th in 2010
and finished 17th and 6th in 2011. But the scheme changed. So did the defensive coaches.

Regardless how cheap Michigan was to RR in the three years it still wouldn't solve our problem here at Arizona.
RR got Casteel here and that his comfort zone, I'm not convince that they manage a poor job with the recruiting defense player to come here. Their was article that talk about our recruiting around 2012 to 2014 were we brought 40 prospects on defense side. Out of those 40 prospects, 17 of them are no longer with it. If you think a scheme change is going to magically turn this self destructed defense around, were not Michigan where it was easy for them. RR believe in the system of 3-3-5, we as fans have to embrace it and we have to trust them. They will find some answer during the offseason.

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